User:Nelsonic/Threequel proposal draft

What is a game? III: Revenge of the Splits

In a similar sense to the semi-current situation with physical games, the way that tech demos are currently covered is... not entirely arbitrary, as everything is currently compiled into one page, though the current classification system for tech demos needs to be modified. The current tech demo page considers a tech demo to be both a publicly shown demo to gauge interest in an upcoming product, which is the usual definition of "tech demo". However, it also includes internally used test programs, such as snd_test and morphdemo. A better term to describe these would likely be "Test programs" or "Internal tests", as the nature of a "tech demo" means that it must be publicly shown in order to demonstrate the technology (hence the name "tech demo"). In addition, many programs not covered here could fall under the banner of "Internal tests", including various cartridge test applications (such as the NFT2 Test Cartridge). Many test cartridges such as these feature content relating to or outright showcasing characters from the Super Mario franchise. As these are all individual pieces of software, I'd say that these could all get split, as they feature enough content to comfortably fill out their own articles.

If this proposal were to pass, a handful of these demos and test programs would be split into their own articles and given mentions on either the tech demo or the new internal test page, and those that are already split - yet misclassified - such as Yoshi Demo would simply have the current information on the tech demo article scooted over to the new internal tests page.

Some of these demos, such as NDDEMO and Yoshi Demo, were mostly available exclusively via SDKs for their systems, with the main outlier I can think of here being Mario Kart XXL. In a sense, these are still internal tests, as they were shipped out to developers via the aforementioned SDKs. These SDKs were never meant to make it into the public eye. Actually, if I remember correctly, developers are told to destroy the SDKs after use, or at the very least, sit on them for the rest of eternity. (This hasn't stopped test cartridges from appearing on eBay for thousands of dollars, however.)

For any of the internal tests that are currently split, i.e. Mario Kart XXL, a slight reclassification in the article will likely occur if this proposal passes. Any categories or text referring to the internal test as a tech demo will likely be removed and modified to fit the reclassification.

Below is a list of all of the different pieces of software that would be affected by this, organized by system.

Nintendo Entertainment System

• NFT2 Test Cartridge

Game Boy

• Game Boy Controller Kensa Cartridge

Game Boy Color

• Wario Land II sample (1)
• Wario Land II sample (2)
• Game Boy Color Promotional Demo

Super Nintendo Entertainment System

• SNES Burn-In Test Cartridge
• NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge
• SNSP Aging Cassette
• snd_test

Virtual Boy

• Donkey Kong Country proof-of-concept

Nintendo 64

• morphdemo
• puzzle
• spritemonkeyEX

Game Boy Advance

• AGS Aging Cartridge
• Yoshi Demo
• Mario Kart XXL

Nintendo DS

• Aging Card NTR
• Climax Group Diddy Kong Racing demo (1)
• Climax Group Diddy Kong Racing demo (2)
• Carving

GameCube

• NDDEMO

Wii

• Koopa Troopa Forest
• Mario FPS

Nintendo 3DS

• Classic Collection

So, to sum everything up, the passing of this proposal would result in snd_test, NDDEMO, Mario Kart XXL, Yoshi Demo, the Wario Land II samples, morphdemo, puzzle, spritemonkeyEX, Koopa Troopa Forest, and Mario FPS being either moved to an article on internal tests and split (or mentioned, if they've already been split into their own articles), or all of these pieces of software simply being moved over to the new article without being split (unless, of course, they have already been split).

TBA

(Other proposal stuff, such as voting options, will go under here)

ADDITIONS FROM CAM & THE OTHERS

For one thing; please swap out the "Fake Link"s with actual links about the demos at hand! Not all of these demos are easy to get information on; we had to look up a few of these, and in the case of one test we're bringing up for the sake of being thorough, there just straight up isn't a good video at all for it!! You can feel free to put the following section after this into the proposal itself at some point. We weren't sure how you'd want to insert it, so we'll just leave it here for now. If you have any input about our own stance, we've also got our own little comment box thingy. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 16:41, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

For our part, it's probably a good idea to define what is public-facing versus internal, and moreover, list exactly what we'd like to see happen. We'd define "internal" as either "software created to demonstrate the hardware internally, presumably to iterate on it later on" or "service programs, created to diagnose problems--as in, quite literally testing the hardware". Public-facing is, well, self-evident. From there, the lists would be as follows, and if we imagine we could give them a page. For completion's sake, "public-facing" (what we would consider a "tech demo") is also listed, so you know what exactly stays versus gets split:

• PUBLIC-FACING (what would go on Tech demo)
  • Mario Demo - The Virtual Boy one. Should probably get its own page, if it turns out to be separate from VB Mario Land?
  • Game Boy Color Promotional Demo - Seemingly unaccounted for entirely on both lists. Should probably get its own page, as it was very uniquely distributed for kiosks in-stores and even features some unique Mario-related assets just for it.
  • Super Mario 128 - Already has a page.
  • Luigi's Mansion demo video - Already has a section on that game's pre-release page, and that seems fine enough.
  • Mario Kart for Nintendo GameCube demo video - Like Luigi's Mansion's demo video, it has a section on that game's pre-release page, which is fine enough.
  • DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo - VERY low-information tech demo, demonstrating Nintendo Wi-Fi Connection to some capacity, using Mario Kart DS. Despite its obscurity, it still took place at some sort of public-facing event, so it should at least be on the table. Maybe if more information is discovered, we can give it its own page?
  • Balloon Trip - Already has a page.
  • Mario's Face - Already has a page.
  • DSpeak - Presently lacks a page for lack of information, but if more was uncovered, it could definitely get one. If nothing else, it should be on the table.
  • Carving - DS tech demo that does feature some Mario elements, should probably be on the table, but information on it is too thin to have a page.
  • New Super Mario Bros. Mii - Already has a page.
  • The menagerie of public-facing Wii U tech demos that got recycled for games like Nintendo Land or Game & Wario - Don't have pages, but weirdly barely go acknowledged on the corresponding pages. We can't imagine giving these their own pages, but coverage of these should be expanded at least a tiny bit to clarify the origins (maybe 1-2 sentences)?
  • MvDK on Wii U - Has a section on Mario vs. Donkey Kong: Tipping Stars's page the Tech demo page itself just... Isn't linking to, for one reason or another?
• INTERNAL TESTS (what would go on Internal Tests) (should be divided into two tables)
  • INTERNAL DEMOS - These being to demonstrate the hardware functionality to developers.
    • snd_test - Set to get its own page. We definitely understand this, as it has its own set of Mario minigames.
    • Donkey Kong Country VB mock-up - We don't even have a picture of this one. To the table it goes, but it's probably on thin-ice; if it's less Mario-related than this one, it'll have to make a very compelling argument.
    • morphdemo, puzzle, and spritemonkeyEX - The "gameplay" of these, when present, is extremely thin. Should definitely be mentioned on the table, as all involve some form of Mario content, but giving them their own page is dubious.
    • Wario Land II samples - Should be on the table, but they shouldn't get their own page. Emphasis on "own"; we could probably give these a mention on that game's pre-release/development page. Between this and the Game Boy Color Promotional Demo for kiosks, it's safe to say that Wario Land II played a very key role in the development of the Game Boy Color, and it's probably worth acknowledging that.
    • Yoshi Demo - Already has a page. This is like, THE Internal Demo, it was handed off to anyone who got an SDK.
    • Mario Kart XXL - Everyone's favorite prototype to Crazy Frog Racer that a collector hoarded the ROM to for over a decade because he thought it was valuable already has its own page, and said page more-or-less covers the edge case perfectly, so it can stick around on the table. Saves us time, at least.
    • NDDEMO - Already has a page, and like Yoshi Demo, it was given out via SDK to developers, so it has a strong case for its presence.
    • Koopa Troopa Forest and Mario FPS - Information seems scarce, but at the very least they should be on the table.
  • DIAGNOSTIC PROGRAMS - These being to, well, diagnose issues with public-facing hardware, used by service employees. Spoilers, a lot of these probably don't warrant individual pages, but we'll gladly tell you which ones should be brought up on the table itself.
    • NFT2 Test Cartridge - Admittedly, we don't actually know how much this should be acknowledged... Much at all. The extent of the Mario presence is just that Mario is on the cartridge label. Interesting, but not particularly Mario related outside of the cartridge itself. We genuinely don't know how to go about this one, and would like feedback of if "Mario is on the label" is "Mario" enough to warrant going on the table versus a more "generic" test.
    • Game Boy Aging Cartridge - Mario appears in the tests themselves, and actually, the previously unused sequences from the Controller Kensa Kart do get used here! We can't actually tell which one game first, the Aging or the Controller Kensa, but at any rate, both should be present. (This is missing the Mario at the end of the Controller Kensa test, whereas Controller Kensa is missing the graphics test.)
    • Game Boy Controller Kensa Cartridge - Mario appears in the test itself if you pass it, and there's even an unused test for graphics, which has Mario in it. This could probably get a mention on the table.
    • Burn-in - Test Cartridge - Mario routinely appears in the tests, and there's even some appearances of early Super Mario World assets. This should definitely get a mention on the table.
    • NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge - A follow-up to the Burn-in Test, with even more features and way more instances of early SMW assets; with how much it has, it might honestly warrant a page, if just to give it a proper gallery. (Admittedly, we're a tad at a loss of how to showcase images from these demos. We know there are a few of these loose on the wiki, like this one from the Game Boy Color Promotional Demo: But we're at a loss of how we should go about putting these into galleries for entries that don't warrant individal pages...)
    • SNSP Aging Cassette - Another diagnostic program akin to the Burn-in Test with some more early SMW assets. Should definitely get a mention.
    • Controller Test Cartridge - No Mario content at all. Get outta here. ;P
    • AGS Aging Cartridge - Mario and Donkey Kong both appear in the tests. Should appear on the table.
    • GameCube Service Disc v1.0/03 - Mario appears right at the very end of the tests. Should appear on the table.
    • Aging Card NTR - An early screenshot of Super Mario 64 DS appears in the tests, and funnily enough, the test actually runs a modified version of the AES Aging Software to test the GBA compatibility. Testception! Should appear on the table.
    • Data Check & Log Check - What little we can find on this (since a ton of information on this seems to just be utterly buried in analog horror based on it... mumble grumble...) suggests no Mario presence whatsoever. Unless there's some breakthrough, we think it's safe to exclude for the same reasons as the Controller Test Cartridge.
    • CTR Aging Test Program - Has Mario Kart 64 music, for some reason. Should appear on the table.

To summarize our (e.g. Cam, Tori, Cecil, Claire, and Macy's) take; create a pair of tables on a page called "internal tests"; one for internal demos, one for diagnostic programs. If we want a specific page above to be split, or to not be on the table, we've specified as such above. And, obviously, the table on tech demos should be split up (or added to, thanks Game Boy Color Promotional Demo) accordingly. Our only real concern is what to do about NFT2 Test Cartridge, as it's such an outlier, being Mario-themed on the cartridge label, and plenty of promotional material for the Nintendo World-Class Service service did have Mario in it, but it's missing Mario where it actually matters; the tests. In addition, we're admittedly unsure of how to handle galleries from these tests, and would be open to further input on that regard.

(Aside not for inserting: We wonder if the best way forward would be a poll proposal. One for "do we split internal tests", one for "if we do, do we include NFT2 Test Cartridge", one for "if we do, do we give NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge its own page", and one for "if we do, do we put a gallery for Internal Demo-related sprites/assets on the page itself?" We don't actually know if anyone's attempted a poll proposal involving a "provided one poll passes, what then?" question, let alone 3 of those, or if such a thing is even allowed. We might need to ask.)

Obviously, we'll leave the final final say to Nelsonic.

If you have anything to add to it please put it in this mock comment box below ty!!!

@Camwoodstock Apologies, I mostly pulled the names off of Hidden Palace and The Cutting Room Floor (specifically, here and here. I don't remember precisely where I found it, but I found a menu somewhere for some NES test program that featured 8-bit sprites of Mario on the selection menu. It was labeled as the NFT2 Test Cartridge or some variant of that, though this is still a rather minor appearance of Mario, aside from the cartridge-art-cameo-thing.

Also, I had previously written down a separate proposal about splitting off the other tech demos, which relates to this in a sense (in terms of deciding what to do with the public-facing demos). I think there's an argument there regarding a public release for those, as they were only ever shown at events and weren't intended to go much further than that.

I can understand keeping demos that were later reworked into another game merged, though I thought I should ask: would it work to attempt to split off any and all gameplay information for the mini-demos (such as spritemonkeyEX or morphdemo into a dedicated Nintendo 64 internal demos/Wii internal demos (etcetera) article? Maybe the "Internal demos" article could serve as a pseudo-list-of-games-type-thing? However, if not, I'm fine with sticking everything that's either too short or too closely related to a released title onto the "Internal demos" article without splitting anything off (though, I feel I must add that Mario Demo is probably around the same length as the rest of the shorter demos on the current "Tech demo" article, being a video clip in which (as stated on the tech demo article): "The sequence shows a rendered Mario under the Virtual Boy logo, which flies into the viewer letter by letter." Nelsonic (talk edits) 17:48, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

To note, when I draft proposals, I usually write the entire thing out, including the votes and dates.

Here is the draft of the other proposal that I had written. Per my previous, similar proposals for the splitting portion. For the other portion, technically, these demos were officially released in a sense, as they were available to publicly play at conventions, and likely weren't intended to go much further than that. I feel that it is incorrect to say that these were never released, as, while tech demos are never commercially released, they can be publicly released in the same manner that Mario Factory was; available publicly, but not for an extended period of time/in a large amount of locations. In addition, as these demos can be considered separate from what they were reworked into, and we currently split, say, WarioWare microgames and their original counterparts (if any), I think the demos falling under this banner should also be split.

The passing of the portions of this proposal would result in each passed option's affected game to be either split from this article and added to the list of games, or split and kept here. The games would be added either as an "add-ons"-type section named "Tech demos", or something else, depending on what the most popular opinion here is.

Proposer: Nelsonic (talk)

Mario Demo

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

This was a demo for the Virtual Boy, and it was shown publicly at Shoshinkai 1994. While it is not a "game" per say, we currently consider Super Mario Bros. Print World, Super Mario Embroidery World, and the Donkey Konga Click-n-Stick to be games.

Add to the list; don't split

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. First choice.

Add to the list and split

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. Second choice.

Don't add to the list or split

Super Mario 64: Disk Ban

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

Unlike the previous game, this was fully playable when it was shown, though it is unconfirmed if it is a tech demo. However, due to the incredibly small amount of differences, I'd say that it was intended to be one, however I would also state that the differences and circumstances under which it was shown (with the circumstances bit applying to all demos with miniscule amounts of differences from their released counterparts) are notable enough for a split.

Split and add to the list as a tech demo

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. First choice.

Split as a cancelled game, don't add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Third choice. Not my preferred option, but this can work.

Don't split, add to the list as a tech demo

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice.

Don't split or add to the list

Super Mario 128

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

While this was already split, I should note that this wasn't explicitly playable at the event it was shown at, however, it was still showcased publicly, like Mario Demo. However, the article acts as a blanket title for multiple projects using the title Super Mario 128, so the article may have to be slightly rearranged for linking purposes. As with the following two, a build of this was likely playable, it was likely just recorded and the video clip was shown.

Add to the list; rearrange article to have a section specifically on the tech demo

1. Nelsonic (talk) First-ish choice. Per proposal.

Add to the list; split off tech demo-related stuff

Add to the list; don't modify the Super Mario 128 article

Add to the list, but link to this page instead of the Super Mario 128 one

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice.

Don't add to the list or split

Luigi's Mansion

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

While, again, this wasn't explicitly playable at the event, it was shown the same year as Super Mario 128, and, in the same sense that the previous few were, was technically shown publicly. However, I must note that the game was likely playable, it was simply a recording of said playable game that was shown.

Add to the list; split off tech demo information

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice. Per proposal.

Add to the list; link to List of Luigi's Mansion pre-release and unused content

1. Nelsonic (talk) First choice. There isn't really a lot there for an article, and, unlike the other two, this actually did end up becoming a released Super Mario title.

Don't add to the list

Mario Kart for Nintendo GameCube

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous one, this was shown publicly, though it wasn't playable. It was shown the year following the previous two, and, as with the previous ones, the game was likely playable, it was likely just a video clip that was shown.

Split tech demo info; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) First choice. Per proposal.

Don't split info; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice.

Don't add to the list or split

Balloon Trip

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

Unlike the previous group, this demo was actually playable at the event it was shown at, and was reworked into an existing title. However, the game is already split and (as far as I know) is exclusively about the tech demo, aside from mentioning what the tech demo was developed into.

Add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't add to the list

Mario's Face

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous demo, this was playable at the event it was shown at, and is already split. It was not reworked into any existing titles, aside from the fact that the concept would return in a different format in Super Mario 64 DS.

Add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't add to the list

DSpeak

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous two demos, this was playable at the event it was shown at, however, it does not appear to have an article as far as I know. The concept would return in a sense with Mario and Wario's floating heads reappearing in Super Mario 64 DS, though DSpeak was not explicitly developed into any title as far as I know.

Add to the list and split

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice.

Don't split or add to the list

New Super Mario Bros. Mii

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous few, this was playable at the event it was shown at, and was briefly considered to be a game by this wiki until it was revealed that it was a tech demo. As with the previous few, it has already been split.

Add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't add to the list

Chase Mii

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous bunch, this was playable at the event it was shown at. However, it is not currently split, at the demo would eventually become Mario Chase. However, I believe the two should be split, due to the WarioWare example I used earlier, in addition to the fact that nearly all of the iQue-created Adobe Flash-based WarioWare: Touched! games are exactly the same as a microgame from said game, yet those retain articles.

Split and add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Not my preferred option, but this also works.

Don't split or add to the list

Shield Pose

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

This was, as far as I know, playable at the same event as the previous demo, and my argument remains the same for splitting, with the iQue WarioWare Adobe Flash games remaining my primary example here.

Split and add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Second choice. Not my preferred option.

Don't split or add to the list

Measure Up

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous two, this was eventually reworked into something else, though both my argument and examples remain the same. In regards to the fact that these Wii U Mii-based tech demos aren't strictly Super Mario-related, I still believe they should be split, as they hold historical significance in the same manner Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic does.

Split and add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. First choice.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Not my preferred option, but this works.

Don't split or add to the list

Zapper tech demo

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

My argument remains the same as the previous Mii-based tech demos for the Wii U. This was publicly playable at an event, and holds enough historical significance to be split from its resulting minigame.

Split and add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Per proposal. First choice.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Not my first choice, but this also works.

Don't split or add to the list

Mario vs. Donkey Kong Wii U demo

Deadline: (DATE) 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

As with the previous bunch, this was publicly playable. It was later reworked into another title, but, again, I think this has enough historical relevance and differences to be split from Tipping Stars, which is what is was later reworked into.

Split and add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) First choice. Per proposal.

Don't split; add to the list

1. Nelsonic (talk) Not my first choice, but this also works.

Don't split or add to the list

@Nelsonic - For the proposal we actually make, we don't think we need to run an independent poll for every single possible entry. With a proposal like this, it's nice to have one cohesive list as a starting point that we can then alter in the future as is deemed fit; giving NFT2 Test Cartridge and NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge its own poll options should be the exception, NOT the norm! (Incidentally, what do you think of our assessments? Anything you think should be on the tables we haven't acknowledged? Anything we think should have a page/shouldn't have a page you disagree with? It'd be best to lock in a list of things we're actually acknowledging on these lists sooner, rather than later.) ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 18:03, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Alright, sounds good. That was just a leftover proposal I had that I was planning to post on the tech demo page at some point, I was just providing a copy due to some of the reasoning in there (specifically the bit about tech demos and public release).

In regards to the tables, I one hundred percent agree with relegating the WarioWare/Nintendo Land-based demos, the two GameCube video/demo hybrids, and the Virtual Boy Donkey Kong Country title to the list, since splitting would be essentially repeating the pre-existing articles/pre-existing sections. I think Mario FPS and Koopa Troopa Forest could maybe fill out their own pages, if only to acknowledge the Super Mario franchise dipping a toe into the waters of the "shooter" genre (with Mario FPS being the only Super Mario-related first-person-shooter known to exist). All the information regarding controls has been preserved (to my knowledge) for both of them, with information regarding Mario FPS being mostly complete (to my knowledge), as it describes the controls and setting, which make up the majority of the demo. I'd say DSpeak could maybe be split off, although an additional template for subjects on which there is a very small amount of information may have to be created for that. I'm not quite sure what to do about morphdemo, puzzle, and spritemonkeyEX, since the content there is completely unique and was never developed into a standalone title, yet the length of most of those is akin to a promotional Adobe Flash title. As those can all be grouped together, would an individual article work for those? Something that could still be linked to from the internal demos page, yet a place to house any gameplay information?

I'd say that for the diagnostic programs, Burn-in - Test Cartridge, NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge (as was said), and maaaayyybeee SNSP Aging Cassette could get pages, if only for historical relevance because of Super Mario World asset reuse. In addition, there is the Game Boy Aging Cartridge (which appears to be a different version of the Game Boy Controller Kensa Cartridge) also apparently throws up both the Alleyway and Super Mario Land title screens (as shown on the Hidden Palace page), so I'm not quite sure what to do with that one. I'd want to give it a page, but I would probably give everything a page if I could... *laughs nervously* I'm not sure if that is the best way to go about that. If the Game Boy Aging Cartridge were to receive a page, then I would say that the Controller Kensa Cartridge version could probably be mentioned on that page, as it appears to be an updated version of the Aging Cartridge. The AGS Aging Cartridge features Game Boy Advance'd sprites resembling Mario's head from Super Mario 64, in addition to (what appears to be) a unique logo for something by the name of Donkey Kong Advance, plus multiple Donkey Kong-related sprites. Similarly to what you said regarding the NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge, I think this could get a page for gallery purposes. Maybe. The graphics don't make up much of the demo, though they do appear to be semi-unique.

In addition, I did come across something by the name of DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo, which used Mario Kart DS as one of the games. I'm not sure if this could be split, because there do not appear to be many other images of it (aside from these), so it is hard to tell what the demo was intended to do in relation to Super Mario stuff. If there's too little here for a page, I'd say this could go on the current tech demo table.

Thoughts? Nelsonic (talk edits) 18:51, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Nelsonic Heads up, you don't need to create a different : level for anytime you line-break in a reply like this. Just use a standard linebreak, and then the same amount of : levels. Like we're doing in this reply, if you need any specific pointers. ;P

At any rate! A few distinct replies to different points:

• We don't think we'd agree with the idea of merging the N64 demos; if we're going to merge information on a few of these internal demos anyways, why not just... To the page about internal demos itself, rather than trying to clumsily split a page while keeping it merged together like that? It's a bit too complicated, for too little payoff.
• We did consider maybe splitting Burn-in - Test and SNSP Aging as well as NTF 2.5, but ultimately we decided just NTF 2.5 since it has the most. Depending on what we do for galleries, though, that may not be necessary? Again, we're not sure if we should just give the "Internal demos" page its own united gallery...
• We figure that the Game Boy Aging Cartridge could have its own page. Also, you definitely would want to get a proper source for that one; once again, it was hard to find information on considering it tended to be buried under information on the Game Boy Advance Aging Cart. They'd probably end up with different lines, as despite having the controller test shared between them, the Mario-related elements are different between the two.
• The DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo could absolutely use a mention on the Tech Demo page if we could find a better source for it!

We've gone ahead and reflected these (namely the additions of the Game Boy Aging Cartridge and DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo) to our portion of the draft. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:09, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Whoops. Thanks for telling me. I'll use the usual amount of line breaks from this point forward. this is really the only source I can find for the Game Boy Aging Cartridge, which was apparently released by Forest of Illusion courtesy of Frank Cifaldi at the Video Game History Foundation. So, just to confirm, what'd we do with Mario FPS and Koopa Troopa Forest? I'm fine either way (though I would prefer a split article due to the unique concepts).

I'm fine with keeping the Nintendo 64 demos merged with the "internal test" article. I can see now that a split article for those might get... messy.

I did stumble across another tech demo that appears to have featured Super Mario-related stuff. It was for the Nintendo DS, and was called Carving. Interestingly, it also appears to have a page on the NintendoWiki. Would this be a good fit for the tech demo article? Should it be split? It appears that players could carve out Mario, and (possibly) Yoshi. I also found a video clip that appears to show most - if not all - of the Luigi's Mansion tech demo-video thing, if that's helpful.

So, just to confirm, Mario Demo gets re-split, Game Boy Color Promotional Demo gets split, DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo might get split if more information is found, snd_test is likely getting split due to the other proposal, Game Boy Aging Cartridge gets split, NTF 2.5 Test Cartridge might get split, and the rest stays merged to one of the two articles?

Also, the Nintendo 64DD version of Super Mario 64 has been... bothering me. Does this qualify as a tech demo? Granted it did have a release date, and, as the 64DD was a commercial failure, it may have simply never had time to release, but the lack of additional features, and how it features additional bugs...

I also came across something by the name of Classic Collection via the NintendoWiki page. It was a 3DS tech demo, and appears to have acted as a hodgepodge Classic NES Series-ified Super Mario All-Stars-alike? Would this qualify for the tech demo page? Should it be split?

Also, where does Diddy Kong Racing Adventure fit into this? It was meant to become a full game, yet the version that the public eventually got hold of was a prototype for pitching purposes that was running on Xbox hardware. Does this count? Nelsonic (talk edits) 21:29, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

Koopa Troopa Forest and Mario FPS would probably remain on the tables without pages to their own, as admittedly, we don't know enough about them. We don't know if builds have ever surfaced, just information about them from development documents; what we know just isn't enough to give a page. If more resurfaced, that'd definitely be subject to change.

Carving can probably be added, since it features Mario stuff in it; we're skeptical about giving it a full page on this wiki, but linking to the NintendoWiki page would make sense. Went ahead and added it to our draft.

We think you could include the 3DS Classic Collections could be added for the same reason that MvDK on Wii U should be added; we think those are what ultimately became the rather short-lived 3D Classics series, which we think it's safe to say released.

Also, Mario 64 on 64DD and Diddy Kong Racing Adventure are just unreleased media. They weren't made to test any specific concept, they weren't some pitch that was demonstrating some concept, they're just. Game that were being made, and then didn't release. Mario Kart XXL at least has the excuse that it was a company attempting to test some new bespoke method of displaying graphics they had come up with; Mario 64 on 64DD isn't really "testing" the 64DD's capabilities as far as we can tell beyond "it can boot", despite TCRF's speculations that it might've been meant to be a Tech Demo, and there's no angle of a "test" for Diddy Kong Racing Adventure. They're out of the scope for this page.

Anything else we could account for before we should like, try to combine drafts? :o ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 21:51, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock I don't think I've got anything else. We can try and combine drafts, if you want! Nelsonic (talk edits) 22:02, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Oh! Wait! Yes! I do have one more question. The Super Mario 128 article is currently being used as a blanket-article for multiple projects with the title, not just the tech demo. Would we have to split some of that off, or would the article remain how it currently is? Apologies for the many, many, many pings... Nelsonic (talk edits) 22:20, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Nelsonic (COMPLETELY fair, you don't need to apologize. ;P) Given Super Mario 128 is already on the current Tech demo table, we think it's fine to include and just clarify it should be about the tech demo specifically on the table. Fortunately, this answer means we don't need to tweak the draft we were working on a bit beyond a single sentence of clarification! We left something for if you wanted to add in a final say of your own, but if not, just lemme know. We'll probably launch this once our proposal about Beehive (Mario Pinball Land) wraps up--we've already got a draft for our changes locked and loaded for that one once the deadline hits. You should probably launch that split page for physical games as soon as you can, so we're not stuck waiting past that; don't rush yourself, of course, you've still got time, but don't take too long, y'know? ;P ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 22:28, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock The draft looks great! I don't think I have anything to add for that bit at the end, but I'll think about it for a minute. (Thanks for leaving me a spot at the end, by the way.) Do you mind if I butt into your list for a second to mention Classic Collection? And yeah, the list of physical games has been haunting me for a while now. I'm trying to work up the mental motivation to figure out how to list all the board games I don't have release dates for *laughs nervously*. Nelsonic (talk edits) 22:42, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

Oh, shoot. Knew we were forgetting something in the merged draft. You can go ahead and add the Classic Collection to the list of Tech Demos to mention on the table, though we likely aren't going to give those pages. As for the board game thing, we assume you've checked Board Game Geek at some point, but if you haven't... We're glad we told you to check Board Game Geek! That's usually our source when we have a board game-related question. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 22:46, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock I... have not checked Board Game Geek. Thank you for the suggestion. Also, does this summary work? Nelsonic (talk edits) 23:09, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

Works for us! Just fixed up some formatting, and it should be ready to launch whenever both of us have an opening to make a proposal. (Also, happy to help with the pointer of Board Game Geek! They helped us out of a few jams when we were sifting through aboutfiles.) ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 23:17, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Sounds good! Now... now to sift through the many, many, many, many, many, many, many, many physical games that've been released since 1981 that star a Mario character... I'm probably gonna have to publish the list of physical games with a construction template, because these things are probably gonna keep popping up for a while... once you finally think you found the last one, another one comes knocking on your door... *laughs nervously*... Nelsonic (talk edits) 23:20, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Sorry, one last-last question. Where would the Climax Group Diddy Kong Racing demos (shown here and hereMedia:DKR Climax DS tech demo.jpg) fit? There were two of them, and they don't appear to have been developed into anything in particular. I was just gonna slot them in for a table entry, but I thought I should ask first. I'm also not sure whether or not these could constitute a page, as the demos are available online, so any and all information regarding gameplay could be covered. Nelsonic (talk edits) 17:16, June 11, 2025 (EDT)

That's a curious case indeed. We'd normally be inclined to call it a prototype, but the tech demo was by Climax Group, not Rare... Unless an employee at Rare could confirm, "oh, Climax Group lent us their work when we made Diddy Kong Racing DS" and make it a de-facto prototype, we think it's safe to include on the table. We'll add that to the draft shortly. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 17:55, June 11, 2025 (EDT)

@Nelsonic - Just a reminder, we plan to launch this proposal tonight, once the Beehive (Mario Pinball Land) ends and is implemented. We'd like to be the one to post it, since we already have it locked-and-loaded in our Notepad++ if that's fine. We were also planning on maybe putting the drafts for the Tech Demo and Internal Demo pages in here too, if that'd be fine by you? Just thought we'd tell you/ask you if that's fine, so we're on the same page with who's doing what here. ;P ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 12:58, June 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Sounds good! Do you want me to work on a couple drafts for the individual, singular demo-specific pages (i.e. the one for the Virtual Boy Mario demo) once I can find some time... *laughs nervously*? Also, I'm pretty sure Mario Demo doesn't have an official name, as the last revision of the original page states that the name is conjectural. As the Lost Media Wiki page currently links to this, I think it may have appropriated a conjectural name. Nelsonic (talk edits) 13:11, June 12, 2025 (EDT)

You can feel free if you'd like! We've got a (very) rough draft of the revised Tech Demo page below, and will probably start chipping away at an Internal tests page soon. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 13:19, June 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Regarding the Mario Virtual Boy demo: If it is just the prototype boot-up sequence, I'd say the information may be better suited for a section on the Virtual Boy page itself, though I'm not sure. That'd certainly explain why the Lost Media Wiki states that it was hard-coded onto prototypes of the Virtual Boy... Nelsonic (talk edits) 18:03, June 13, 2025 (EDT)

@Nelsonic Where do you think it'd go, then? Maybe somewhere in Virtual Boy#Production? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 19:15, June 13, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Yeah, that'd work! Nelsonic (talk edits) 19:23, June 13, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock I just did a little bit of digging regarding the DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo, and the closest I have been able to come to finding something on this comes from the website nsidr.com, which mentioned the Mario Kart DS booth.... but not the DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo. I'm wondering if the DS Wireless Internet Tech Demo was predominantly video-based, as these photos show Sharp televisions playing what appears to be video footage of two people in different parts of the world, who are both playing their DSes over what is presumably the Wi-Fi feature that the demo is showcasing. Nelsonic (talk edits) 17:03, June 18, 2025 (EDT)

@Nelsonic That would definitely make some sense--after all, how exactly do you demo something across the globe? If we found sufficient proof that the televisions were just, video footage demonstrating wi-fi play, we think it'd be safe to remove it from the table; it'd be less of an actual "tech demo" and more a video demonstrating the functionality. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 18:06, June 18, 2025 (EDT)

Attempted Merged Draft

What Is A Game? III: Demo Another Day™

(Make sure this goes on MarioWiki:Proposals!!)

Similarly to the semi-current situation with physical games, the way that tech demos are currently covered is... not entirely arbitrary, as everything is currently compiled into one page, though the current classification system for tech demos needs to be modified. The current tech demo page considers a tech demo to be both a publicly shown demo to gauge interest in an upcoming product, which is the usual definition of "tech demo". However, it also includes internally used test programs, such as snd_test and morphdemo. A better term to describe these would likely be "Test programs" or "Internal tests", as the nature of a "tech demo" means that it must be publicly shown in order to demonstrate the technology (hence the name "tech demo"). In addition, many programs not covered here could fall under the banner of "Internal tests", including various cartridge test applications (such as the NFT2 Test Cartridge). Many test cartridges such as these feature content relating to or outright showcasing characters from the Super Mario franchise. As these are all individual pieces of software, I'd say that these could all get split, as they feature enough content to comfortably fill out their own articles.

If this proposal were to pass, depending on the outcome(s), the listed software below would be either split into their own articles and given mentions on a new "Internal tests" page, or they'd be simply given mentions on said page and not split. If this page was created, the demos listed below that are currently considered "tech demos" would be removed from the tech demo article entirely.

Note that some of these, such as NDDEMO and Yoshi Demo, are already split, so all that would change in regards to these demos - which were mostly available exclusively via SDKs for their systems, with the main outlier I can think of here being Mario Kart XXL - would simply be their classifications, with them being listed on the page for Internal tests instead of on the tech demo article. -Nelsonic (talk)

Below is a list of all of the different pieces of software that would be affected by this, organized by system, created by Camwoodstock (talk), whether or not they should have their own pages or simply be mentioned on the respective tables, alongside their reasonings for each when applicable:

• Public-facing demos (what would go on Tech demo)
  • Mario Demo - The Virtual Boy one. Should probably get its own page, if it turns out to be separate from VB Mario Land?
  • Game Boy Color Promotional Demo - Seemingly unaccounted for entirely on the present list, despite having a few images from it already uploaded. How odd! This should probably get its own page, as it was very uniquely distributed for kiosks in-stores and even features some unique Mario-related assets just for it.
  • Super Mario 128 - Already has a page. Obviously, the table section would be about the tech demo itself.
  • Luigi's Mansion demo video - Already has a section on that game's pre-