|All past proposals are archived here. This page is protected to maintain the discussion as was.
Use a unique archive color for proposals that fail to reach a consensus
This is something that's been bugging me for a while now. Currently, we don't have a unique color for proposals that fail to reach a consensus (i.e. proposals that get extended three times and end without any option properly "winning"). Currently we just mark them red, the same color used for proposals that straight up fail. This isn't totally illogical, since the result of both outcomes is similar (the proposed changes are not implemented and there's a minimum 4 week wait to propose again). However, I still feel that this needlessly obfuscates the archive, making it impossible to tell which proposals failed by consensus and which ones stalemated without clicking on each and every proposal link in the archive marked red, especially since there is no text in the archive that clarifies this. As a result of this, people browsing through the archive are forced to do extra work just to determine which ones are which for no good reason. Stalemates are common enough that it would be useful to be able to tell them apart easily.
As for what color should be used, my suggestion is white. It's a fitting color for stalemate proposals, and it isn't too close to an existing color (closest is gray, the color used for passed proposals awaiting implementation, but I think it's distinct enough). I'm open to other suggestions though.
Proposer: 7feetunder (talk)
Deadline: June 1, 2021, 23:59 GMT
- 7feetunder (talk) Per proposal.
- Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Makes sense to me. Per.
- Stooben Rooben (talk) — This is a nice little improvement. White should be fine, as both it and black are the only colors left unused without getting into different shades of the existing ones (lavender, navy, etc.)
- Niiue (talk) This always kinda bugged me. Per all.
- Ray Trace (talk) Per all.
- Keyblade Master (talk) Per all
- Waluigi Time (talk) Sure, why not.
- Archivist Toadette (talk) Absolutely.
- Hewer (talk) Per all.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
- Power Flotzo (talk) Per all.
- BBQ Turtle (talk) Per all.
I noticed in the proposal archive that there is already a colour used for ties, brown, but it only seems to be used for a handful of old proposals, and it isn't on the TPP archive. Is this just because of changes in the proposal rules, and do you plan on replacing it with whatever colour you decide on here? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:48, May 25, 2021 (EDT)
- Ties are an artifact of Super Mario Wiki's early years, long before I even joined. Back in the day, proposal extensions weren't a thing, if it reached its deadline and the votes were tied, the proposal simply ended in a tie. Eventually, the rules were changed the current ones, and "failed to reach consensus" replaced ties completely, which is why brown is only used for old proposals. Honestly, the legend should state this and clarify what a "tie" is and why they don't happen anymore, since it's not something that's readily obvious to users who weren't around back then. 16:19, May 25, 2021 (EDT)
Listing changes on articles for ports, remakes, and remasters
hybrid of prose and bullet points 0-8-1
Recently, the Changes section of Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury has been discussed while the article is being nominated for Featured status. The biggest issue right now seems to be whether to write the list of changes to 3D World as prose or a bullet-pointed list.
Some examples of other articles with a similar section: Super Mario Advance, Super Mario Advance 3, Super Mario Advance 4, Super Mario 64 DS, and Super Mario 3D All-Stars split the changes into sections, but otherwise use only bullet points. Mario Kart 8 Deluxe instead uses short paragraphs of prose, with each paragraph focusing on a different small aspect of gameplay or design.
Super Mario All-Stars and Super Mario Advance 2 blend some sections of prose with bullet lists in others. On the Discord server, Glowsquid recommended a different hybrid model: starting subsections with short prose paragraphs about general changes, and using bullet lists for the smaller details. The full post is in the Comments section below.
I am in support of exclusively bullet points. I think in this specific context, where there can be very minuscule details that might get their own paragraph when using prose, it is more effective to use bullet points. There seems to be more of a standard set with them than with prose, and I think that's because it's more convenient to read the changes when in a bullet list, especially because you can create sub-bullets to highlight groups of changes.
Proposer: 0blivion (talk)
Deadline: June 5, 2021, 23:59 GMT
List changes entirely in prose
List changes with a hybrid of prose and bullet points
- Hewer (talk) I don't really see a problem with the way we have it now since it still conveys all the relevant information and using one over the other depending on the page may be preferable to effectively convey the information in each case. Since that's what we're doing right now and it doesn't actually cause any problems I see no reason to change it.
- Glowsquid (talk) My real opinion would be "Use bullet points unless there's a broad enough patterns of changes you can introduce them in prose". See my comment below.
- TheFlameChomp (talk) Per Hewer and Glowsquid.
- Waluigi Time (talk) Per Glowsquid.
- Stooben Rooben (talk) — While I can appreciate the organizational approach this proposal is going for, I feel like limiting our writers to one option or the other is an unnecessary restriction that will cause more harm than good in regards to article flow and readability. Since ports, remakes, etc, don't all follow a standardized set of rules in their production, each one should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis to determine the most appropriate way to document the information.
- Archivist Toadette (talk) Per Glowsquid.
- Ray Trace (talk) Per all.
- The Mansion (talk) Seems like the best option to me.
List changes in entirely bullet points
- 0blivion (talk) Per proposal.
I'll post the discord comments I made when the topic was brought up (also the proposal main text made it sound like i recommended the bowser's fury page to be like SMA2's when what happened is that BLOF brought it and the Super Mario All-Stars as examples of how those sections should be written and I opined I don,t think they work very well, and then brought up my own idea on how those sections should be done)
- "I don't think there's actually a policy about wheter bullet vs prose is preferable, and to be honest I prefer bullets in most forms. Like, if you want to have some elaboration on the kind of look super mario all-star's revamped graphics go for vs the original game, a paragraph of prose may be fine but most of the articles might as well just be a list of bullet honestly.
For example super mario all-stars, for the graphic section you could start with a prose paragraph that says "all-stars overhauls the graphical presentation of its component games redrawing sprites, adding paralax scrolling that wasn't there before", etc etc and then you have the bullets listing the specific "snifits are now green instead of red" stuff. I don't feel the two examples you gave as they are now are really all that preferable. right now you just a bunch of short paragrahs sandwiches between tons of rogue line breaks."
So for the above-cited example of SMA2, instead of the current appealing wall of text the gameplay changes section is now, it would be more like:
"Super Mario World: Super Mario Advance 2 gets rid of the 2-player mode and instead overhauls Luigi as a distinct player character with his own abilities. He can be played by pressing R on the world map.
- Stuff Luigi does different 1
- Luigi difference 2
- Luigi difference 3
The 100% Completion events have been overhauled, featuring different requirements and new events for triggering Fall.
- New completion requirement description
- New fall content
- New fall enemies"
etc etc. Hopefully you get the gist. --Glowsquid (talk) 09:37, May 22, 2021 (EDT)
- Sorry about that. I didn't actually see the conversation on the Discord server, so I misunderstood the intent. I've edited the main text.
However, couldn't these short prose introductions also be fit into a bullet list? I mentioned sub-bullets because when the Bowser's Fury page had bullets, it did something similar to this hybrid model by using them. For example:
- As in Super Mario Odyssey:
- Save files are saved, loaded, and copied in the same manner.
- Characters can now roll in midair, similar to the dive.
- Characters can perform a roll or Ground Pound Jump immediately after landing from a Ground Pound.
- Characters now fall through upright Warp Pipes when performing a Ground Pound through the center from above. Similarly, characters now enter sideways Warp Pipes immediately when rolling through the center without their momentum being interrupted. The sped-up variant of the Warp Pipe sound effect from Odyssey is reused upon entering Warp Pipes these ways.
If those main bullets would work better as prose, then I could be OK with that as long as the minute changes are bullet points. 0blivion 11:39, May 22, 2021 (EDT)