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*if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''. They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]]. | *if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''.<ref group=amendment>The author of this proposal confirms this statement to be an oversight and has ruled through [[#A quick and dirty amendment to the January-February 2023 Smash proposal|another proposal in March 2023]] that it be understood as the following: "if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this obviously includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''they will still have a page of their own'''. However, if they're not characters from a franchise that receives full coverage on this wiki, '''their lists of moves in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series will still be trimmed away.'''"</ref> They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]]. | ||
*in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section. | *in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section. | ||
*current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages. | *current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages. | ||
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</div> | </div> | ||
---- | ---- | ||
;Footnote | |||
<references group=amendment/> | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br> | ||
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====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
===It's time to talk about Visual Editor once again=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|gray|canceled by proposer}} | |||
Previous [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Visual_Editor proposal] failed to implement Visual Editor as the second option. The opposition failed to make a good arguement against its implementation. Just like I said in my vote months ago, "It doesn't take away anything and encourages newer users who don't yet have experience with source editor to contribute." Since that proposal has failed, I now have to make a new one to overwrite the last one. | |||
Wikipedia has a Visual Editor. I see time and time again newer users who don't yet understand source editor go for Visual Editor instead. Source editor makes perfect sense for ''us'', but not for everyone. Sure, newer users should learn the source editor, but for some people it takes time. We shouldn't discourage newer users from editing. It doesn't take away anything. It is a '''toggleable option''' for those who choose to use it. It can be helpful for more experienced users too. It's overall a win-win situation. It doesn't take away anything, and it only improves the experience of everyone on the wiki. If Wikipedia is using it, clearly the Visual Editor is alright. Thanks for reading. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 3, 2023, 23:59 GMT<br> | |||
'''Date withdrawn''': February 26, 2023 | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} I encourage everyone to overwrite the previous proposal. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
You seem to have missed a very important point brought up in the previous proposal: namely, that '''this is not something that can be decided purely through proposal'''. Implementing new tech is something that's up to {{user|Porplemontage}}, the proprietor of the wiki, since it's work he would have to do. Talk to him about it first, and if he wants community feedback, ''then'' you can make a proposal about it. If you can get his approval, then I don't see a problem with implementing Visual Editor, but it's something he has no obligation to do. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:33, February 24, 2023 (EST) | |||
:I'm aware. The problem is that a proposal needs to be overwritten first [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 00:13, February 25, 2023 (EST) | |||
::And in order to "overwrite" that proposal, you have to re-propose--and earn a supporting majority for--the same changes presented there, which is basically what you're doing here and 7feet is advising you not to do without some kind of go-ahead from the one person who is able to enact these changes. Ground zero can't be reached again; you're either going to have it one way or another based on community consensus. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:50, February 25, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::Alright. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 13:00, February 25, 2023 (EST) | |||
===Discourage drive-by templating=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|25-0|Require improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles}} | |||
Improvement templates are a necessary, or at least beneficiary, eyesore but they can be subject to degenerate editing behaviours. Namely, it's very easy (and common) for editors to just slap improvement templates on pages with no or vague reasons and then leave ([[Template:Rewrite-expand]] in particular is subject to this). Not only can it be Kind of Rude when it's slapped on a recently-created article, the resulting eyesores stay on pages for years, as it's not clear to anyone but the editor who added the template what needs to be done - the [[Donkey Kong]] page has had a Rewrite-Expand notice since ''2017'' for vague "bad writing" and it's hard to tell what's so awful about the existing writing or what content must be added. | |||
Through conversations on our Discord server, I've found other editors share my frustration with this behaviour. Fortunately, I believe there's an easy fix. Most improvement templates have parameters to explain in the template text why the template was added to a page, and any improvement template that currently does not incorporate this can be easily modified to have it. As such I propose, should this pass, that '''from this point, any improvement template added to a page must have its reason parameter filled with specific, actionable points'''. Emphasis on the "specific" - just saying a page has "bad writing" or "is missing images" without specifically saying what is bad about the writing or what images are missing won't cut mustard. Any currently-used instances that do not have their parameter filled (or only give a vague reason) will be removed, although it does not mean the templates can't be readded if specific reasons are listed. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 6, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Require improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles==== | |||
#{{user|Glowsquid}} ^^ | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} was always bothered by this | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} I don't see any reason why we should not do this. | |||
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per (also the reason parameter should be the second one, not date or user or whatever irrelevant garbage) | |||
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} per. Also we should encourage going on talk page or linking to an existing talk page discussion, which can also serve to elaborate on points being made that can't fit on a rewrite template. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} per {{user|Bazooka Mario}}. | |||
#{{User|Platform}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I remember doing some edits to the Donkey Kong page and having trouble finding what was being considered "bad writing". So I ended up mostly just removing false information and fixing the formatting on the page. | |||
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal, (maybe without the Trivia template). | |||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} per all the users who interacted with me previously in one way or another. | |||
#{{user|7feetunder}} Possibly out of the scope of this proposal, but I also think that [[:Template:split|split]] and [[:Template:merge to|merge]] [[:Template:merge from|request]] templates without a discussion tied to them (I've seen several) should be removed for the same reason. | |||
#{{user|Lord Grammaticus}} Absolutely on board. | |||
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Literally a day before the deadline, but... Per proposal. | |||
#{{user|Mario jc}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Yeah, these templates should clearly indicate how to improve the page, otherwise they're pretty much worthless. | |||
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal. | |||
====Keep things as they are==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
This is probably a given already, but will this also apply to "more image" templates? Again, what kind of images required should be stated as well. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:42, February 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Yeah, I think in spirit, this should apply. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 01:54, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
Two questions: Specifically what templates would be covered under this proposal? And what would happen to existing examples of unhelpful templates on the wiki already? (i.e.: Donkey Kong's page, Kamek's page) Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion (if so I do agree)? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 11:17, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
:The proposal does say that any templates that either don't have any reasoning or are too vague will be removed from articles. I'm assuming templates like [[Template:Rewrite]], [[Template:More images]] etc will be the ones affected. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 11:37, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
So the templates covered would be the following: | |||
*[[Template:More images]] | |||
*[[Template:More media]] | |||
*[[Template:Rewrite]] | |||
*[[Template:Rewrite-expand]] | |||
*<s>[[Template:Trivia]]</s> | |||
"''Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion?''" | |||
Yes. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 12:41, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Are you sure including the trivia template for this proposal is a good idea? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 12:53, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
:: I almost put "Maybe it could be an exception? idk" next to it. It already identifies a specific problem so I guess it can be excluded. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:04, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
::Seconding this question. The community has [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/42301/ already discussed] specific criteria for trimming improper trivia, so any problems signalled by this tag are often easy to detect and fix, even without providing specifics in said tag. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:06, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
:That makes sense. You have my vote, although I believe Trivia template should not be included. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 13:36, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
::The trivia template probably could be reworked some way, maybe agree on how many trivia points in a trivia section there should be before the template becomes warranted (I'd often say about five or six). {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:00, February 28, 2023 (EST) | |||
As 7feetunder proposed, would it be possible to include ''[[Template:Split]]'', ''[[Template:Merge to]]'' and ''[[Template:Merge from]]'' in the list? {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 17:22, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Those (however inexplicably) don't even ''have'' reason parameters, so that is inapplicable here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:48, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
::7feetunder said if they could only be used if there is an active discussion or proposal regarding its respective matter, which I would agree with as well. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 17:51, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::I also agree. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 23:08, March 4, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::I would agree with requiring an active discussion or proposal in order to use merge or split-related templates, as like with the templates currently covered by the proposal, I have seen occasional instances of the reasoning for the split/merge request being only stated in edit summaries. I feel like it is important for the templates to be able to link directly to discussions that include reasoning, as I feel that having to search page histories for reasoning makes it more likely for the templates to just sit on articles without getting attention. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 23:34, March 4, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::If someone wants to propose merge or split or rename, they should be required to actually start a discussion on the talk page or make a proposal. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 01:55, March 5, 2023 (EST) | |||
===Trim the Smash Bros trophies page=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|11-0|Trim ''Smash Bros.'' trophies pages}} | |||
[[Special:LongPages]] tells me [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U]] is the biggest page on the wiki. That's pretty weird! [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS]] follows it at #3, [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Brawl]] at #12 and [[List of trophies in Super Smash Bros. Melee]] #135. I don't have any investment in making [[List of The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! quotes]] the ''rightful'' new biggest page on the wiki but I think a case can be made for trimming the fat. | |||
'''It's pointless content''': I think the trophies page, in a way, best illustrate the follibles of treating Smash Bros like it's a Mario game that happens to have other Nintendo characters in it. There's a certain amount of sense in thinking "Well Mario is playable in this game and he can punch [[Joker]] so why not have a page on him" but by going from there and treating everything Smash Bros as it's a Mario game, you end up with a situation where spend a lot of bandwith talking about Doshin the Giant, Mach Rider, Judy from F-Zero, etc etc. Characters that have no relevance or presence in the Mario IP, but happens to have some text written about them in a crossover game Mario & co happens to be playable in. | |||
'''We have a precedent for trimming Smash content''': A recent proposal agreed to merge characters that don't have any substantial appearance beyond Smash Bros to list pages. It's not been enacted yet - but that's not my problem~ | |||
'''It's not original content''': An argument to keep Smash stuff in previous discussions is that the current Smash Wiki we're affiliated with is overtly written for hardcore competitive players in mind and that our Smash Content allows for a "Simple English" alternative for people who don,t care about that stuff. Leaving aside the validity of using the perceived failings of another wiki as a factor in our content, this is so not the case here. It's all straight text dumps directly from the game - text that can be read on other websites and video slideshow of those other trophy galleries. In this instance I believe that, yeah, "just go to Smashwiki" is a valid argument. | |||
It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki - while we may have a [[Link]] page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple. | |||
'''What about stickers?''': Those have a (minor, barely discernible) gameplay purpose so I thought people might object to the removal of relevant gameplay information. | |||
'''What about spirits?''': I thought of lumping them in this proposa, but the deal is that because of the format of World of Light, a PNG might not represent a Mario character but may involve characters, items or stages as part of the fight gimmick. I don't know what to do, so I'll let someone else do it. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Glowsquid}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Trim the ''Super Smash Bros'' trophies list to only the content relevant to Mario and related franchises==== | |||
#{{user|Glowsquid}} ^^ | |||
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} ''Cut, cut, cut, cut!'' | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Godspeed | |||
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} A bit skeptical, but per proposal. | |||
#{{user|7feetunder}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal | |||
====Keep things as they are, don't trim==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
How would this affect characters like Sonic or Link who would be removed from the lists but still have their own pages? Will their trophies still be in their respective profile sections? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:32, March 1, 2023 (EST) | |||
:My gut response would be to keep them there. It's the same thing as articles mentiong random character have appeared in Captain N - why not? --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:55, March 1, 2023 (EST) | |||
What about the weird situations of some generic subjects? Mainly [[apple]] because it has a gameplay purpose, just not ''Mario''-based. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:47, March 2, 2023 (EST) | |||
===Change the way ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighter lists are organised=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-0|List fighters by debut ''Super Smash Bros.'' game (and include other ''Mario''-related appearances)}} | |||
If I may... | |||
A month ago, a [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Merge_certain_non-Mario_fighters_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series_into_game-specific_lists_and_trim_away_detailed_special_move_information_for_all_non-Mario_fighters|proposal]] passed to collect Smash fighters who've had no significance within the ''Mario'' franchise into lists, each list having a focus on fighter appearances in one particular game. A valuable point was made by the opposers, stating that this particular organisation obfuscates the information and disrupts its continuity, forcing readers to jump between pages to get a thorough impression on only a single character--to say nothing of the fact that any other ''Mario'' appearances they had, which are obviously relevant to the wiki, are eviscerated for no reason. The proposal advanced too far in time for me to be able to make changes to it, so I bided my time for another proposal to amend these shortcomings, hence why I personally didn't act upon it. | |||
With that said, the present proposal isn't meant to overturn the nitty gritty of the one before it. Before I list the specific stuff that I'm proposing to change, here's a recap of what's gonna stay put: | |||
*Obviously, the fighters are still gonna be compiled into lists, with "main article" links to pages for ''Mario'' characters and those who had some relevance in the franchises this wiki focuses. The list of affected articles is the same as in the previous proposal. | |||
*Detailed move listings are going to be laid to rest, or at most condensed into a fighter's appearance section (if that isn't the case already). | |||
*To avoid inflating these lists, no "profile and statistics" sections will be moved over, especially considering the concurrent proposal to remove trophy information for non-''Mario'' fighters. | |||
*Contrariwise, information on The Subspace Emissary and Classic Mode routes are going to be covered within these lists, since they may involve ''Mario'' elements. To potentially clarify, just as in the current status quo, they will be covered in sub-sections of their respective game appearances. (e.g. "Subspace Emissary info will go in a section under ''Brawl''{{'}}s.) | |||
Now, onto the proposal's actual matter: | |||
*'''The fighters will be organised by the Smash game in which they debuted.''' Fighters who debuted in the og ''Super Smash Bros.'' game will be listed on one page, as should be the case with ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'', ''Brawl'' etc. (with ''Super Smash Bros. for 3DS'' and ''Wii U'' debuts covered on a single list). By extension, instead of splitting their individual Smash appearances between different pages, fighters will have all Smash-relevant contained on one page (e.g. "List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros." will have Pikachu's appearances in all Smash games). | |||
**If the size of these pages and consistency with similar Smash-relevant pages is a concern, the proposal's Support option will be split into '''having all other appearances in ''Mario''-media covered as well''' (dubbed "'''Option 1'''") and '''having only the Smash information covered'''. | |||
*'''All or the majority of images related to one fighter's game appearance will be moved into a designated gallery sub-section within its respective appearance section.''' This is done, in part, to avoid image clutter; however, if you think one or two images are representative enough to be shown front and center in a section, you may so choose, albeit this is up to each user's or group of users' discretion. The images in question include any images that would potentially be orphaned as a result of purging the move lists. (e.g.: An image of Ness's PK Fire move from ''Brawl'' will be placed along with all the other ''Brawl'' images in Ness' "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" section.) Whether these images or a part of them are necessary to the wiki's well-being is up for another discussion; this proposal only advocates a place for them in the meantime. | |||
**As an exception, the fighter's main artwork for their most current Smash appearance (as of today, ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'') is placed at the top-right of the fighter's section, since it's representative of the character's current state in the series. A caption stating that it is the character's artwork from <Smash game> should also be included with the image. | |||
**As part of Option 1, miscellaneous images from other ''Mario'' media will be collected into a Gallery section under a character's "Appearances in other ''Mario''-related media" section. The gallery section will have the same tier as the individual ''Mario'' game appearances. | |||
A suggestion, nevertheless not obligately imposed by this proposal, is that each fighter who is covered into their own page should have a short, concise statement about an aspect in the Smash series, as per [[MarioWiki:Empty sections]]. Something along the lines of "This fighter is available by default in <games>, while they are unlockable in <yet other games>." would work, I think, since it's often the first thing mentioned about a fighter in a given Smash appearance. | |||
All of the changes in Option 1 are exemplified in a userspace page I prepared specially for this proposal, which you can view here: [[User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros.]] As a point of comparison, you can visualise what the previous proposal espoused at this page: [[User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters in Super Smash Bros.]] | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 8, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====List fighters by debut Smash game (and include other ''Mario''-related appearances)==== | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Imma go with this one, seeing as how this is the Mario Wiki after all, and [[List of Super Smash Bros. series objects]] already has info on the [[List of Super Smash Bros. series objects#F-Zero machine|F-Zero machine]] in ''Mario'' comics. | |||
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} I strongly prefer this method of splitting the fighters over the method established by the previous proposal, as it keeps information about each fighter together on one page, rather than splitting information of each character across five pages. I also do not see harm in keeping additional ''Mario'' related content. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} If we're going to do this, this is a much better organization method. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} While I would much rather prefer a different option of keeping all characters on one page (while keeping ''Mario''-related appearances), for the sake of article size I'll go with the majority. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Waluigi Time. | |||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} This will be much more useful. | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} This will be fine for me. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Waluigi Time | |||
====List fighters by debut Smash game (but exclude other ''Mario''-related appearances)==== | |||
====Keep the course of the previous proposal==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
===Merge ''Mario Kart Tour'' Kart and Glider variants or Split Character variants: The Threequel=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|5-4-6|do nothing}} | |||
Oh boy, he's at it again | |||
I understand I’ve brought this up many times before, be it through [[Talk:Mario Kart Tour#Palette Swaps|discussions]] or [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57#Split or Merge Mario Kart Tour's Pallet Swaps|past]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Split Mario Kart Tour character variants or merge kart/glider variants: Take 2|proposals]], and regardless of which solution has been agreed on thus far, I still feel this situation could be handled better. Thus I feel it necessary to revisit the whole ordeal with ''Mario Kart Tour’s'' karts and gliders. The way we cover the characters, karts and gliders is still glaringly inconsistent and it feels it gets more inconsistent the more I think about it; character alternates, kart alternates and glider alternates all share the same differences; different favorite and favored courses, differnet visual appearances and different special items/skills/item bonuses. However the characters do not get their own articles (for reasonable reasons), but the karts and gliders, despite being palette swaps, just as Yoshis or Shy Guys are, can have their own articles, creating that inconsistency between not only the character alternates as a whole, but how we naturally treat other palette swaps. And I feel we need to fix that. I’ve brought this topic up at least twice in previous proposals, with the only passable outcome being to create list articles on character variants (something I have still failed to follow through with). But with the arguments against splitting Yoshi colors, I can’t help but be bothered by how the arguments there contradict with how we handle these karts and gliders. One the main arguments being that splitting the Yoshi colors seems excessive. I still don’t understand how extra articles for different colored Yoshis is excessive, but extra articles for different colored Yoshi karts is not excessive. And while splitting Yoshi colors extends to other species, merging karts and gliders does not extend to nearly as many similar problems, with the only real one being the ''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!'' karts and several ''Mario Kart 8'' wheel sets. Those, as well as other arguments, are here with my attempts at answering them: | |||
*'''The Karts and Gliders have different statistics:''' A point I feel is completely null at this point. As I’ve mentioned, character alternates feature the same differences and they are deemed too excessive to split. On top of that, again drawing parallels to the Yoshi debate, the colored species such as Yoshi, Shy Guy and Birdo have the same Tour differences, with Yoshis having even more beyond that across many other games and that’s still not enough to consider their own articles. Heck Shy Guy has variants that are a mix of coloured variants and themed variants (Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) for example, being an alternate of Pink Guy Guy while also being a variant of Shy Guy (Ninja), if that makes any sense). As such, “different stats” is either not enough to warrant a split or there needs to be a general agreement on how different said stats need to be. Until then, karts and gliders having different statistics feels like a nullified point. | |||
*'''They look different/have different names:''' Sure, the Magic Parasol has a different texture than the Peach Parasol, but if having gameplay function isn’t enough, then I fail to see how having a visual difference means anything. The Magic Parasol still looks identical to the Peach Parasol, just with a different visual appearance, just as Santa Mario still looks identical to Mario, just with a different visual appearance (or outfit appearance I should say). It wouldn’t be hard to list variants of karts and gliders in the same way we list variants for characters. Heck, we can list variants off in the same way we list the Mii Racing suits: a table with an image, tour debut and special skill/item bonus. As for naming, it WOULD be a viable argument if several karts didn’t follow the same naming convention as the colored alternates; Blue Biddybuggy, Green Cheep Charger or Gold Clanky Kart are literally the same concept as Blue Yoshi, Green Shy Guy etc. And that’s not even covering the fact that there are gold characters as well as gold karts and gliders. Even ignoring those names, a lot of karts are just “Insert descriptive word” “Insert original Kart name” (Grand Badwagon, Sunny Surf Sailer etc). Compare that to real life; do we consider cars completely different if they’re different colors? I’m pretty sure a blue Nissan Micra and a red Nissan Micra are still Nissan Micras. The naming of karts is generally no different than character alternates. | |||
*'''Some of the kart variants have different sizes:''' Again, gameplay differences of a bigger scale don’t cut it, I can’t see how this would. | |||
*'''It’s harder to pinpoint the original kart/glider:''' Originally, yes, it was and that was a very good point to make. But as of now, both file names and ID numbers can and have proven to be reliable ways to work around this, as we have done with the Butterfly Wings and the Dragonfly/Dozer Dasher idea. Some karts, like the Speeder (Jetsetter), which doesn’t really have a set variant name (as the first variant was just named Green Speeder) don’t really need a kart with the base name, as it kinda already exists from before. The Kiddie Karts are in a similar boat, with neither names indicating which the original variant is, but the file ID seems to point towards the Red Kiddie Kart being the original variant. Which debuts first doesn’t seem to make a difference. | |||
*'''''Mario Kart Double Dash'' and ''Mario Kart 8'' also feature palette swapped karts/parts:''' Indeed they do and they should definitely be under the microscope too. However ''Mario Kart Double Dash’s'' palette swapped karts are of fewer numbers when compared to how many variants of karts are in ''Tour'', though in all fairness, these aren’t creating an inconsistency in the same way ''Tour'' does. If we do end up merging karts and gliders, THEN it’s something to discuss and I am definitely not against discussing that and I’d fully support the idea of merging kart part variants in ''Mario Kart 8'' (the wheels specifically, as they feature no stat differences and are only palette swaps), but right now, I would like to focus on ''Tour’s'' problem and bring up that possibility later. I will say, however, that at the moment, I’d like to leave the Gold Standard, Gold Tires and Gold Glider off the list of things to merge, as they have had consistent appearances across several games, though if the idea of merging them too comes up, I’d gladly discuss that. | |||
*'''What about other similar topics:''' Honestly, this proposal isn’t meant to cover and consider every instance where this happens, it’s meant to concern Mario Kart Tour. If this passes and other areas become inconsistent, we can discuss those instances separately. | |||
All that being said, I think the options are simple. While I do feel there’s a general agreement on how we cover character alternates, for the sake of keeping all options on the table, I will still include the idea of creating articles for character alternates. | |||
*'''Split character variants into their own articles:''' Character alternates like Mario (Santa), Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Dry Bones (Gold) will get their own articles, just as kart and glider variants do. As per comments below, this, for the time being, will exclude colored alternates like Blue Yoshi, Pink Shy Guy, etc and focus more on the established characters like Mario, Daisy, Wario etc. Alternates like Yoshi (Kangaroo) or Toad (Party Time) are still viable to be split, as they are directly based on the characters themselves, while something like Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) will be worked into a Shy Guy (Ninja) article. | |||
*'''Merge Kart and Glider variants to their parent articles:''' Kart and Glider alternates, such as the Blue Badwagon or the Shell Parachute, will be merged with the kart/glider they spawned off of, with the variants being listed off in a similar manner to how character alternates are listed off on character pages or how Mii Racing Suits are listed. A separate gallery section can be added to each page to showcase variants. In terms of which are the parent topics, we can easily use file names or IDs to determine this, though many of these variants are pretty easy to spot. | |||
*'''Do nothing:''' We decide to leave everything as is. | |||
I have made a complete list of each kart and glider and the variants they have on my [[User:Tails777/Work#MKT Kart and Glider Variants|work page]]. If there is anything I missed or anything to question, let me know. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Tails777}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Split Character Variants==== | |||
# {{User|Ahemtoday}} I agree that we need to treat these things consistently, but I think we need to go the other direction. Aside from the arcade games and ''Live'', which Nintendo does not seem to consider part of the main series, there's little precedent for character "variants" outside of that set by ''Tour'' itself. There's just the different colors of Yoshi and Shy Guy for Download Play stuff up until ''8'', which has... well, still Yoshi and Shy Guy colors, but also the different Villager genders. ''8 Deluxe'' introduces Gold Mario and ''BotW'' Link, but also splits the Villagers and Inklings. That's all of two costumes that actually stayed ''costumes'' instead of getting their own spot on the character select. And one of them's unlockable and the other one's a post-launch update, so neither of them are exactly "normal". It falls to ''Tour'', then, to set the precedent for how the series treats "costumes"... and it treats them all as their own characters. And why shouldn't it? The other games have stuff like Dry Bowser and Tanooki Mario and Pink Gold Peach, and they've all been listed as separate characters despite being exactly as different as your average Tour variant. This is unlike palette swaps, which have a much stronger precedent of ''not'' having their own space on the character select. '''To summarize: the handheld games set a precedent for color variants not being separate, so they should stay merged. In the entire rest of the main series, in and outside of Tour, non-color variants are treated like separate characters, and therefore they should be split.''' | |||
# {{User|Spectrogram}} No, I don't think this is the right call. | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Per this. EDIT: We could do this for the Yoshis, Birdos, etc. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} You know what, sure. I've said before that the Tour variants are basically just that series' version of power-ups, so why not? We can keep all the information on each variant in its own dedicated place, and it's an easy way to document the history (if any) of that variant beforehand. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | |||
<s>#{{User|Tails777}} While I'm still a bit more on the idea of merging karts and gliders, as to be consistent with all character alternates, I'm still open to the idea of splitting character variants too.</s> | |||
====Merge Kart and Glider Variants==== | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} I still support this idea. It's easier and more consistent with how we handle the character variants and other palette swapped characters. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, and I just can't imagine pages for the character variants being anything but a mess. Seeing as they're currently adequately covered in one or two sentences on the main characters' pages, I'm having a hard time imagining full articles being made for these variant characters (especially the Tour-original outfits), and to my knowledge it's not consistent with any other game we cover. | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} I would much rather prefer this over the splitting option, as all these character costume things are just that; costumes that characters wear. They did not make a different character that looks and acts like Mario but with a different outfit, they simply made Mario change his clothing. Replace "Mario" with any other MKT character, and it works out the same way. We don't split the costumes from SMO, or the endless combinations of enemy stacks you can make in SMM, or all the ghost outfits in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon, etc. Plus, the parameters the split option entails ("include other appearances of this costume it is based on on the page with the MKT instance of the costume") would inadvertently lead to us splitting off the Luigi's Mansion instances of King Boo from the regular King Boo page, something that nobody but a few IPs have advocated for in the past as they are otherwise treated as the same thing. | |||
#{{User|Arend}} Per proposal; also, as Hewer and Somethingone said, splitting off all character variants would make quite a mess, and is something we don't really do for any other variant ''outside'' of Tour. I cannot really imagine why anyone would rather split every character variant (even with the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/58#Split Mario Kart Tour character variants or merge kart/glider variants: Take 2|passed proposal of just making them list articles]] being a fine enough option as it is) just to not deal with the merger of many karts and gliders, and the difficulty of determining which kart/glider is a variant of which. | |||
====Do Nothing==== | |||
#{{User|Arend}} Secondary choice. I'd rather not do anything at all than split off all character variants. As explained above, it would just be a clunky mess that would be inconsistent with how we deal with variants in any other game. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Arend, second choice. | |||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Well, in stark contrast to y'all two, I'm putting my second choice here because I feel that merging the karts and gliders would be a mistake. I can live with merged characters (easily, since some very good points have been raised about awkward situations that would come up) but I just think merging things that, unlike characters, have never been shown as anything but separate options with the same importance as the original, isn't the way to go. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Second option as well, because I reeeeally do not want the other option to pass. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Since this is gaining traction now, second choice, don't really think this needs to be an either-or situation. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
Would articles on separate character variants detail any prior history of that variant? Like, would Mario (Chef) have separate sections on the outfit's appearances in ''Yoshi's Cookie'' and ''Super Mario Odyssey''? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:54, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Honestly, for those cases, I wouldn't say so. Mario dressing as a chef in ''Yoshi's Cookie'' is merely for the theme of the game and ''Super Mario Odyssey'', it's just a costume with no gameplay features. Neither appearance treats the outfit as anything special; Mario's still Mario, just dressed as a chef. It can easily be mentioned that the outfit is based upon said appearance, but otherwise, it would only cover ''Tour'' as that's the game it has an actual functional difference from normal Mario (different special item, different favorite/favored courses, different availability across the game's history). I am aware that if we do split variants, it could cause further inconsistencies, such at the commonly mentioned palette swaps or even the power-up variants. But I wanted the option to be there for people who believed it was a better course of action and if it passes, we can work out inconsistencies from there. {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
:I'd say yes, though it would be fairly brief. Taking inspiration from another part of ''Tour'', the national landmarks: appearing in ''Tour'' is not enough for a landmark to get its own page, but for any landmark that '''does''' because of an appearance in (for example) ''Mario is Missing!'', its article has a section its appearance in ''Tour''. I think these variant articles could do something similar. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:25, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
::I'd also support including those other appearances. If we have an article on a subject, all of its appearances should be included, even if individual ones aren't necessarily article worthy. Omitting them is just going to be confusing. (It's worth noting that this is the approach we took with [[Builder Mario]]. We didn't make an article on it until it became an actual power-up in SMM2, but its earlier appearances where it's just a visual difference are included.) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:32, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::I have no conflict over splitting the character variants at all, but my only concern rests in the fact that this will affect the colored alternates like Yoshi, Toad, Shy Guy and Birdo and I'm aware there has been a common disagreement on that stance. As previously, I do still support this, but I know others may not. In the case of the Yoshi species especially, that would basically mean they get their articles back, since most of them are playable in ''Mario Kart Tour'' with the same qualifications as any other variant. {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
::::Well, like I said in my vote, they differ from other variants in that they have a lot more precedent ''as'' "variants" within the series, which otherwise (in the same games, even) treats likes of Metal Mario and Cat Peach ''not'' as "variants". Given that, I think it's defensible to keep the color variants merged while splitting the other variants. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:43, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::That's kinda the thing, Yoshi, Toad and Shy Guy have the "Color name" "Species name" deal going while Birdo has the same naming convention as the rest of the variants, suggesting the colored Birdos are variants in the same way that Mario (Santa) is to Mario. On top of that, Shy Guy has two variants that split off into colored variants as well; Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) is named as if it's a variant of both Pink Shy Guy and Shy Guy (Ninja). And while there isn't a Shy Guy (Explorer) yet, there is a Light-Blue and Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer), so if we were to just bypass the colored alternates, what would we do about those examples? Do we just relegate every version of Shy Guy to the Shy Guy article or do they get treated the same as every other alternate? And do we treat Birdo differently because they are named the same way as the other variants being split? {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
::::::I think it's pretty clear what's a color variant and what's not, regardless of in-game terminology. Birdo colors are colors of Birdo. Pink Shy Guy (Ninja) is a color of Shy Guy (Ninja) and could get covered there. A "Shy Guy (Explorer)" could cover both Light Blue and Yellow Shy Guy (Explorer)s. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:39, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::::I will say, though; I understand the desire to also split the colors into their own article, and that also seems like a fair way to do it. If my option and a complete split were separate options on this proposal, I'd vote for both. (And honestly, as I sit here typing, it's growing on me.) But splitting the colors has consequences that extend ''far'' beyond Mario Kart Tour, so I think it might need its own dedicated proposal. (That said, a split may ''also'' have far-reaching consequences on how we handle powerups, so maybe I'm being a bit hypocritical here.) [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:39, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::::I agree; working with colored variants is beyond the scope of this proposal. And while I was thinking of making a separate option, I think it's best, for the time being, to focus on the established characters. The colored Yoshis can stay with the Yoshi (Species) article while things like Yoshi (Reindeer), Yoshi (Kangaroo) etc can be split. But I still think that it's really worth considering colored characters like Yoshi especially. I know a recent proposal failed to split them, but I myself will always stand by them being enough to have their own articles, as they have had consistent appearances across the whole franchise that have gameplay differences. For now, I think I'll specify that splitting character alternates will exclude colored alternates. I'm pretty sure that should be fine, as it's less than 3 days since I started this. | |||
:::::::'''Edit''' What are the thoughts on the Mii Racing Suits? Should those just remain with the Mii article or are they worthy enough for a split? {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
::::::::The Mii Racing Suits strike me as much more similar to costumes than colors. Even the basic colors would seem quite odd to me lumped together on the Mii article if the others were split. Having an article for "Brown Mii Racing Suit" also feels odd, though... Not sure how to handle that. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 05:09, March 7, 2023 (EST) | |||
'''@Spectrogram''' Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your vote. You say you don't think this is the right call, but you're voting for splitting the character variants. Are you merely saying that merging karts and gliders isn't the right call or is there a typo/miswording in there? {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
:Pretty much [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 10:17, March 6, 2023 (EST) | |||
::Okay, just clearing that up. {{User:Tails777/sig}} | |||
===Change how we display staff ghost information in race course infoboxes=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|10-0}} | |||
Currently, all of the relevant information is plain text, with one line showing the time, player, and game; and another, smaller line beneath it showing their character and vehicle. This worked for some time, but now we're in the age of ''8 Deluxe''. We have wheels and gliders and the CC to fit down there. The smaller "line" is spilling into two lines. [[Tokyo Blur]]'s 150cc has so much to convey, it looks like this: | |||
<small>1:36.317 by Nin★Yuya (''8 Deluxe'')<br><small>([[Inkling|Blue Inkling Boy]] with the [[Splat Buggy]], [[Blue Standard]],<br> and [[Super Glider]]) (150cc)</small></small> | |||
At this point, I feel like it no longer makes sense to display staff ghosts this way. I propose we do it like this: | |||
{| style="width:240px" | |||
! style="background:#AADDFF; width:65px;" |8DX <small>150cc</small> | |||
| style="text-align:left; background:#AADDFF;" |Nin★Yuya | |||
|- | |||
! style="text-align:center; background:aliceblue;" |1:36.317 | |||
| style="text-align:left; background:aliceblue;" |[[File:MK8DX Male Inkling Icon.png|32px|link=Inkling]][[File:SplatBuggyMK8D InklingBoyBlue.png|32px|link=Splat Buggy]][[File:Blue Standard.png|32px|link=Blue Standard]][[File:MK8DThumbInklingBoySG.png|32px|link=Super Glider]] | |||
|} | |||
This 2x2 grid shows the game (and CC), the name of the ghost, and the ghost's time. In the bottom right, we show the ghost's character and vehicle combination as a line of icons, similar to how ''8 Deluxe'' shows them. These would go under an expandable header near the music samples and course maps. | |||
'''''[[User:Ahemtoday/Staff Ghost Cards|Here]]''''' is a demonstration page where you can see these in action for [[Yoshi Circuit]], as well as see them for other games in the series. | |||
While I'm very open to recommendations for how to improve and better implement these, I think this 2x2 grid layout is the best way to cleanly show many staff ghosts' information in a compact space. | |||
'''Proposer:''' {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline:''' March 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
# {{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} I honestly can't think of any other way to present ghost information other than yours, per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Arend}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal. I honestly think it would look much better this way. Plus, we have these sprites, it honestly just looks better to use them like this. | |||
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all. For me it is visually appealing; better appearance than before. | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS! PER ALL! FINALLY, a proposal for this! | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Camwood777}} - This definitely looks a lot better and conveys info a lot better, though I would like to state that we should probably make sure to include alt text on the actual images for the sake of stuff like screen readers; otherwise, this could become a bit cumbersome for those. (Tried testing it myself, but uh, it turns out Windows Narrator is a little jank on my PC???) | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
@Ahemtoday: I'm all for this proposal, but wouldn't it make more sense for it to go under the "changes" section? This isn't exactly a new feature to me. It's more of a change. [[User:Mari0fan100|Mari0fan100]] ([[User talk:Mari0fan100|talk]]) 21:42, March 17, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:I also agree, this should be probably moved to the "changes" section. {{User: Shadic 34/sig}} 21:47, March 17, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===A quick and dirty amendment to the January-February 2023 ''Smash'' proposal=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-0}} | |||
I've just realised I done brain farted in [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Merge_certain_non-Mario_fighters_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series_into_game-specific_lists_and_trim_away_detailed_special_move_information_for_all_non-Mario_fighters|this proposal]], completely changing what I wanted to get at, and yet the error somehow went under the radar. The error in question is in this statement: | |||
<blockquote>if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''their page will remain intact'''.</blockquote> | |||
The bolded part was really only supposed to apply to characters who originated from the ''Mario'' franchise. Otherwise, it's in direct contradiction with the proposal's goal to indiscriminately trim and/or re-incorporate moveset lists for all non-''Mario'' characters, regardless if they're still supposed to have a full page on this wiki or not. To reiterate, this is because they're hardly ''Mario''-related concepts and can be neatly summarised in a character's entry for a given ''Smash'' appearance if they aren't already. | |||
So with this proposal, I aim to clarify the statement as the following: | |||
<blockquote> | |||
if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this obviously includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''they will still have a page of their own'''. However, if they're not characters from a franchise that receives full coverage on this wiki, '''their lists of moves in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series will still be trimmed away.''' | |||
</blockquote> | |||
If this proposal passes, a link to this proposal will be added as a footnote in the quoted proposal's main body, though without directly altering the original statement. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 26, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I apologise and I hope this won't reflect too harshly on my dilligence and reasoning. | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} It's good to keep our focus on the series this wiki is meant to cover. Someone should really revise how we handle crossovers. | |||
#{{User|Camwood777}} - Makes sense. If they already have a substantial presence in Mario stuff via crossovers, it seems only fair. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} For consistency's sake, per all. | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
Will we also be axing stuff like the Classic Mode routes? Palutena's Guidance texts? I'm not entirely sure where to draw the line, but I think there are other things besides the move lists on these articles that are fully the Smash wiki's territory. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:32, March 19, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:As far as these fighters pages are concerned, the previous proposal answers your question: Classic Mode routes are moved over to these pages as these may involve Mario characters and music, while Palutena's texts, as with other information of the "profiles and statistics" type, aren't. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:17, March 19, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Add level maps for levels with no maps=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|blue|cancelled by the administrators}}<small>Per rule 15, a proposal isn't necessary to add missing information.</small> | |||
It's simple. Many levels in this wiki from many games have no maps. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': 13:41, April 18, 2023 (CST) | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} This will let people view the maps. And no, last I checked, there were no spoiler rules. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
And why exactly does it need a proposal? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:56, April 11, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:Why do you ask? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 14:04, April 11, 2023 (CST) | |||
::This definitely does not need a proposal. Many level articles have these maps already, anything that doesn't should absoloutely have them too. It depends if there's anyone around able to do it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:22, April 11, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Trim and merge ''Smash'' spirits and stickers=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do nothing 4-0-0-1-8}} | |||
Just like what we did with [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim_the_Smash_Bros_trophies_page trophies], I propose we do the same and remove all non-''Mario'' series spirits and merge the rest with [[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)]]. If the spirit just so happens to not be from the ''Mario'' series but includes a ''Mario'' reference in the background or whatever, it also gets to stay. Same applies to [[Sticker_(Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl)]], the article gets trimmed to only include ''Mario''-themed stickers. | |||
If the proposal passes, the following changes will be implemented: | |||
#[[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (1-500)|1-500]], [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (501-1000)|501-1000]], and [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (1001-1500)|1001-1500]] get trimmed and merged with [[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)]] to only include ''Mario''-related appearances. | |||
#[[Sticker (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)]] gets trimmed the same way as spirits. | |||
'''Second option:''' keep stickers and spirits if they also have any relevance to ''Mario'' in their statistics, obtaining, battles, etc. This option was added per {{user|Koopa con Carne}}'s vote, and even though I believe this approach is inconsistent to what we did with (for example) Subspace Emissary stages, I see no reason not to have it as an extra option. I would also like to ask to comment before voting next time, as people very often forget to re-read and to re-vote on a proposal, even if their vote and reasoning are no longer relevant. | |||
Feel free to comment if you've got any issues with the proposal, I can always edit it. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Mario Wiki. | |||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} SmashWiki exists for this information. Nothing will be lost and there isn't that much context to it the ''Mario'' characters. | |||
#{{User|Camwood777}} - The Sticker article is definitely a holdover from a pre-SmashWiki era, so like, that's needed to be trimmed awhile ago. The spirits article should also probably be trimmed down for the same reason. And, y'know, the fact that the 501-1000 spirit list literally has ''zero'' Mario spirits on it is borderline comical. | |||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per SeanWheeler's comment. | |||
<s>#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Let's keep the focus on Mario. The 501-1000 Spirit list has nothing Mario-related in it.</s> | |||
====Only trim/merge spirits==== | |||
====Only trim stickers==== | |||
====Second option (Edit)==== | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Changing my vote to allow keeping stickers that affect specific Mario characters and the Spirit battles that involved Mario opponents and stages, but it still needs to be trimmed, especially the 501-1000 spirit list. | |||
====No sticker left behind==== | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I assume this is the "Do nothing" option; the wording isn't too clear. Anyway, many stickers in ''Brawl'', even non-''Mario'' ones, can be used on ''Mario'' fighters. Same with practically all spirits in ''Ultimate'', which have the added aspect of spirit battles that may involve ''Mario'' opponents, stages, items, and music; see, for instance, the [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (501-1000)|593rd spirit]], Pico, who is represented by Bowser. I wouldn't be opposed to handpicking and trimming the few completely irrelevant stickers, but I think this proposal has much the same shortcomings as the concurrent stage proposal in that it tries to paint the whole situation in broad strokes instead of taking a more nuanced view on the matter. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per KCC. | |||
#{{User|Glowsquid}} - Unlike trophies which are just logs of text copy-pasted straight from the game irrelevant to the whole "Mario punching Link" aspect, these things affect gameplay (see KCC's reasoning above and below). Admitelly I'm not sure I like the spirits page being xbox-hueg but I don't think this is the way to go. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Koopa con Carne. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Koopa con Carne | |||
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
The proposal was updated on 09:11, April 13, 2023 (EDT) -{{User|Spectrogram}} | |||
I think all the ''Ultimate'' spirits have some relevance to Mario, seeing as how Mario characters can equip and benefit from any of them, thus making them coverage-worthy. To put it another way, readers may visit the spirit pages on this wiki with the intent of finding out, for example, which spirit works best with a given Mario, DK, Yoshi, or Wario series fighter. This is consistent with the currently-enforced principle that non-''Mario'' fighters still deserve some coverage here by virtue of the fact that ''Mario'' fighters can interact with them. On the other hand, some stickers ''are'' restricted against ''Mario'' fighters, and it's reasonable to expect readers of Mario Wiki not to find these immediately relevant to their interests. Oddballs need to be accounted for too: despite the previous statement, the Crazee Dayzee and ''Mario Power Tennis'' Bowser stickers, which are exclusively usable by Pokemon Trainer and Ganondorf respectively, should still be covered for the simple fact that they depict ''Mario'' subjects. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:48, April 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:I do not believe this is a good reason to keep them anyway. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:59, April 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::Anyone can equip spirits and stickers. That doesn't mean they are all noteworthy on a Mario Wiki. Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the [[Pokémon]] article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page. The spirit list is divided into three pages, and the middle page doesn't have a single Mario-related spirit. A few possessed Mario fighters, and a few take place on Mario stages, but there's still a lot of non-Mario clutter. If readers want full information on the stickers and spirits from Super Smash Bros, they should check Smash Wiki instead. Our Smash coverage has been practically competing with Smash Wiki and it's time to stop that. For one, Smash Wiki is a member of NIWA that specializes in Super Smash Bros. while we cover Mario. Our full coverage of Donkey Kong had led to the closure of the Donkey Kong Wiki. So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 01:10, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::I agree. Although, to be honest: I'm not sure even the Mario stickers and spirits are major enough to cover here. Fighters, I get. Stages, I get. But trophies and stickers and spirits are such a minor thing. It's like covering what everyone's taunts are. The Smash Wiki has an obligation to do that, yeah, but ''we'' don't. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:40, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::But that's directly Mario-related information, there's really no room to argue otherwise. By all means, we should cover the Mario characters' taunts because they're Mario characters. Should we also remove information on collectibles from Mario games because it's too minor? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::We should have kept ''Mario'' taunts [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 03:52, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::[[Taunt|We do still have coverage of taunts, by the way.]] --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:39, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
@SeanWheeler: "''Anyone can equip trophies and stickers''" Straight up false information and disingenuous argument. Trophies are aesthetic collectibles with virtually no gameplay purpose, and stickers can have restrictions on which characters they can be applied to. "''Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the [[Pokémon]] article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page.''" That proposal states that Poke Ball Pokemon will remain on the wiki precisely because they can interact with Mario, they'll just be relocated to the Smash items page; it's the general Pokemon page that will be deleted since it has no relevance to Mario whatsoever--it's as if the wiki had an article on the Aegis blade because two Smash fighters are personifications of this object. "''So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash.''" The Mario Wiki is not beholden to some mysterious NIWA-wide standard on how to cover Smash information. It is free to exercise its own discretion in that regard, and the situation definitely has more facets to consider than "these concepts weren't made for a Mario game". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:17, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
I don't think "can interact with Mario characters" is a reasonable criterion for coverage. Surely, then, we should be listing all the characters' moves - up tilts, down smashes, back airs, and all - on the basis that Mario characters can be hit by them? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:07, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:They already are, they're just condensed into the fighters' ''Super Smash Bros.'' appearance sections--see for instance [[List_of_fighters_debuting_in_Super_Smash_Bros._Melee#Super_Smash_Bros._Melee_11|Mr. Game & Watch]]. No essential information is lost from these fighter merges, it just isn't being described in as much detail as it used to be (e.g. aesthetic aspects). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:13, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::Just fixed the typo where I accidentally said "trophies." Still, there's hardly anything noteworthy about an interaction with Mario characters in gameplay when you can use any other character with no difference. The amount of damage from attacking Mario with Samus Aran's back-air would be no different from hitting Fox McCloud with the same move. The weights may vary a bit, but we'd be overanalyzing non-Mario moves. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::They interact with Mario characters in a crossover game and that makes them fully eligible for coverage, period. Note that by "coverage" I don't necessarily mean "dedicated page" as the organisation of non-''Mario'' subjects should be decided on a more case by case basis, but it is certainly not at all intuitive or conducive to start splitting hairs on just how minor these gameplay interactions are. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:32, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::You've made the proposals that merged the Smash fighters into lists and you supported the proposal to trim the trophy list. Why are you against trimming the stickers and spirits? The list of spirits was so big that it was split into three, and the middle page completely lacked Mario spirits. Shouldn't the stickers be trimmed away for the same reason the trophies were? So what if Mario characters can equip them? Trophies are items in Brawl and Smash 4 that can be picked up by Mario characters. I think the non-Mario stickers that are useless to Mario characters and the non-Mario spirits that doesn't use anything Mario related in their battles should be trimmed away. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:08, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::Stickers and spirits have a gameplay purpose that can affect the stats of Mario characters, however small that effect may be. I don't know where you got that I'm against trimming the stickers, because I clearly said right at the start of the discussion that I'd encourage them being trimmed away as long as they depict a non-''Mario'' subject ''and'' are usable only by non-''Mario'' fighters. As for the trophies, if I remember correctly from ''Brawl'', you pick up generic trophy stand-ins whose character is only revealed by the end of the battle or minigame, certainly [https://youtu.be/ti-yM3sSvcI?t=187 this being the case with ''Smash for 3DS'']--and the wiki already has an article for the general [[trophy (Super Smash Bros. series)|trophy]] item, which Mario, indeed, can interact with. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:34, April 18, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::::You voted "No Sticker Left Behind" as the "do nothing" option. Are you going to change your vote to the Second Option? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:59, April 19, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Not quite. The proposal states that the second option involves "keeping [...] spirits if they also have any relevance to Mario in their '''statistics'''", but it's unclear to me what "statistics" means: is it just a ''Mario'' fighter's overall power (thus all of the spirits would be kept), or the kind of statistics such as shield durability, magic power, fist power etc.? In the latter case, there are some spirits that boost the power of abilities only certain characters harness, such as Ness and Lucas' PSI attacks, and those have no link to Mario, meaning these spirits would be removed unless they have other ''Mario''-relevant aspects to them.<br>To reiterate, I'd be for keeping all spirits, because they all can affect ''Mario'' fighters in some way. There exist no fighter restrictions with spirits as there do for stickers, and keeping them in lists is by that very nature consistent with [[List of The Subspace Emissary stages]] and "List of fighters debuting in X game", contrary to what the proposer claims. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:35, April 20, 2023 (EDT) | |||
=== Create an article for {{fake link|''Punch-Out!!'' (NES)}}=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do not create 1-6}} | |||
''Punch-Out!!'' and its original version ''Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!'' [[List of references_in_Nintendo_video_games#Punch-Out.21.21.2FMike_Tyson.27s_Punch-Out.21.21_.28NES.29|are currently considered cameos on this wiki.]] What separates cameos from guest appearances is that cameos have no overall effect on the game. It's when the thing lacks any role in the gameplay or story. The ''Zelda'' games may have a Mario enemy appear. Still, they are non-''Mario'' enough to be somewhat distanced from the ''Mario'' games, so the games do not get a page, except for ''Awakening'', which only got it because of Mamu's involvement in giving one of the items to Link. As for the NES version of ''Punch-Out!!'', Mario appears in this game as the ''referee'', which means whenever one of the boxers is down, Mario will come up and start counting down from ten. He tells the fighters to fight once the match begins. | |||
'''So why is this considered a cameo?''' Mario ''blatantly'' appears and plays a role in the '''gameplay''': being Little Mac's '''referee'''. His appearance would easily be a cameo if he had just been in the background watching the fight. But because Mario does have a significant role in being the '''referee''', a rather '''important''' thing in boxing, the wiki underplayed Mario's role in this game. Sure, he isn't playable or is a [[Punch-Out!! (Wii)|boss]], but he isn't ''just'' in the background. I always wondered why the wiki considered this role unimportant when it's more than just a background appearance. I guess it's because he isn't playable. Still, not all guest appearances have to make a ''Mario'' character playable, as recently proven with ''Sonic Lost World''. (And on a minor note, ''Punch-Out!! Wii'' is weirdly in the references section despite being a guest appearance). | |||
This proposal aims to reclassify the NES version of ''Punch-Out!!'' as a '''guest appearance.''' This option would mean that we get a general page detailing the game and detailing Mario's role as the referee. The page will also cover both game versions since they are the same in terms of Mario content. We won't create pages for Little Mac or all the fighters that appear in the game. <s>Sorry, Mike Tyson.</s> | |||
[[User:Wikiboy10/Punch-Out!!_(NES)|I have a sandbox for the opening paragraph of this game.]] I haven't played much of the NES version, so I'm unsure how I would describe the gameplay. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Wikiboy10}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
==== Consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) as a Guest Appearance ==== | |||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Per Proposal | |||
==== Consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) as a Cameo ==== | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} This is a stretch, honestly | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Spectrogram, I'm not sure why you're emphasising so much that Mario being the referee is a major role in the gameplay when all he really does is stand at the side sometimes and wave his hands. | |||
#{{User|Camwood777}} NES Tennis is very similarly considered just a "cameo" game, despite Mario's active role as the referee in that game. Heck, in that game, he's not only always on screen (albeit not always proactive), he's also on the Game Boy version's cover art! Since NES Tennis is still just a "cameo" game (at least, as of writing it is), it feels only fair to keep this game on even footing with it considering Mario's similar role across both games. (Besides, Mario characters have made cameos in other Punch-Out!! games, both before and after the NES game, and the sole exception for "ones that got articles" was Wii, since Donkey Kong is a full-on opponent.) | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Mario's wearing a completely different outfit. And in Wreck-It Ralph, Tapper looks exactly like Mario. What if the referee was just a knock-off character? | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} The role of the referee in boxing doesn't really impact the fact that Mario doesn't play any role other than just appearing as the ref. He doesn't truly impact the gameplay like Donkey Kong does in Punch-Out!! on the Wii. | |||
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
I feel the example for Sonic Lost World is flawed since there's an entire theming going around this to make this more of a guest appearance. I still think Mario is a cameo in this game despite having a tangible gameplay-related role here. {{User:Mario/sig}} 01:18, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
''Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!'' is not the original version. The original version is the gold Famicom cartridge that was given to some contestants of ''[[Family Computer Golf: U.S. Course]]''. This one lacked Mike Tyson and had Super Macho Man as the final opponent. There are three versions of the game with three different bosses. That being said, would this proposal also affect ''Tennis''? Mario is a referee in that game as well.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 05:54, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Merge every ''Super Smash Bros.'' stage into game-specific lists=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|green|merge 9-3}} | |||
It's official, the premise is that the Super Mario Wiki is not a Super Smash Bros. wiki. I was wondering if we can merge every stage into game-specific lists: | |||
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.}} | |||
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Melee}} | |||
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl}} | |||
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U}} | |||
**{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS}} | |||
**{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U}} | |||
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}} | |||
The following pages will be affected: | |||
{| | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
*[[Arena Ferox]] (''Fire Emblem'') | |||
*[[Balloon Fight]] (''Balloon Fight'') | |||
*[[Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'') | |||
*[[Battlefield|Big Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'') | |||
*[[Big Blue (stage)|Big Blue]] (''F-Zero'') | |||
*[[Boxing Ring]] (''Punch-Out!!'') | |||
*[[Bridge of Eldin]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Brinstar]] (''Metroid'') | |||
*[[Brinstar Depths]] (''Metroid'') | |||
*[[Castle Siege]] (''Fire Emblem'') | |||
*[[Cloud Sea of Alrest]] (''Xenoblade'') | |||
*[[Coliseum (stage)|Coliseum]] (''Fire Emblem'') | |||
*[[Corneria]] (''Star Fox'') | |||
*[[Distant Planet]] (''Pikmin'') | |||
*[[Dracula's Castle]] (''Castlevania'') | |||
*[[Dream Land (Super Smash Bros.)|Dream Land]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Dream Land GB]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Duck Hunt (stage)|Duck Hunt]] (''Duck Hunt'') | |||
*[[Final Destination]] (''Super Smash Bros.'') | |||
*[[Find Mii]] (''Find Mii'') | |||
*[[Flat Zone]] (Game & Watch) | |||
*[[Flat Zone 2]] (Game & Watch) | |||
*[[Flat Zone X]] (Game & Watch) | |||
*[[Fountain of Dreams]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Fourside]] (''EarthBound'') | |||
*[[Frigate Orpheon]] (''Metroid'') | |||
*[[Garden of Hope]] (''Pikmin'') | |||
*[[Garreg Mach Monastery]] (''Fire Emblem'') | |||
*[[Gaur Plain]] (''Xenoblade'') | |||
*[[Gerudo Valley]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Great Bay]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Great Plateau Tower]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
| | |||
*[[Green Greens]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Green Hill Zone]] (''Sonic the Hedgehog'') | |||
*[[Halberd]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Hanenbow]] (''Electroplankton'') | |||
*[[Hollow Bastion]] (''Kingdom Hearts'') | |||
*[[Icicle Mountain]] (''Ice Climber'') | |||
*[[Kalos Pokémon League]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[King of Fighters Stadium]] (''Fatal Fury'') | |||
*[[Living Room]] (''Nintendogs'') | |||
*[[Lylat Cruise]] (''Star Fox'') | |||
*[[Magicant]] (''EarthBound'') | |||
*[[Mementos]] (''Persona'') | |||
*[[Meta Crystal]] (''Super Smash Bros.'') | |||
*[[Midgar]] (''Final Fantasy'') | |||
*[[Mishima Dojo]] (''Tekken'') | |||
*[[Minecraft World]] (''Minecraft'') | |||
*[[Moray Towers]] (''Splatoon'') | |||
*[[Mute City (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Mute City]] (''F-Zero'') | |||
*[[Mute City SNES]] (''F-Zero'') | |||
*[[New Pork City]] (''EarthBound'') | |||
*[[Norfair]] (''Metroid'') | |||
*[[Northern Cave]] (''Final Fantasy'') | |||
*[[Onett]] (''EarthBound'') | |||
*[[Orbital Gate Assault]] (''Star Fox'') | |||
*[[Pac-Land]] (''Pac-Man'') | |||
*[[Pac-Maze]] (''Pac-Man'') | |||
*[[Palutena's Temple]] (''Kid Icarus'') | |||
*[[PictoChat]] (Nintendo DS) | |||
*[[PictoChat 2]] (Nintendo DS) | |||
*[[Pilotwings]] (''Pilotwings'') | |||
*[[Pirate Ship (stage)|Pirate Ship]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Planet Zebes]] (''Metroid'') | |||
| | |||
*[[Poké Floats]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Pokémon Stadium]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Pokémon Stadium 2]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Port Town Aero Dive]] (''F-Zero'') | |||
*[[Prism Tower]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Pyrosphere (stage)|Pyrosphere]] (''Metroid'') | |||
*[[Reset Bomb Forest]] (''Kid Icarus'') | |||
*[[Saffron City]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Sector Z]] (''Star Fox'') | |||
*[[Shadow Moses Island]] (''Metal Gear Solid'') | |||
*[[Skyloft]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Skyworld]] (''Kid Icarus'') | |||
*[[Battlefield|Small Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'') | |||
*[[Smashville]] (''Animal Crossing'') | |||
*[[Spear Pillar]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Spiral Mountain]] (''Banjo-Kazooie'') | |||
*[[Spirit Train]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[Spring Stadium]] (''ARMS'') | |||
*[[Summit]] (''Ice Climbers'') | |||
*[[Suzaku Castle]] (''Street Fighter'') | |||
*[[Temple (stage)|Temple]] (''The Legend of Zelda'') | |||
*[[The Great Cave Offensive]] (''Kirby'') | |||
*[[Tomodachi Life (stage)|Tomodachi Life]] (''Tomodachi'') | |||
*[[Tortimer Island]] (''Animal Crossing'') | |||
*[[Town and City]] (''Animal Crossing'') | |||
*[[Umbra Clock Tower]] (''Bayonetta'') | |||
*[[Unova Pokémon League]] (''Pokémon'') | |||
*[[Venom]] (''Star Fox'') | |||
*[[Wii Fit Studio]] (''Wii Fit'') | |||
*[[Wily Castle]] (''Mega Man'') | |||
*[[Windy Hill Zone]] (''Sonic the Hedgehog'') | |||
*[[Yggdrasil's Altar]] (''Dragon Quest'') | |||
|} | |||
The following pages will not be affected: | |||
{| | |||
|- | |||
| | |||
*[[3D Land]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[75 m (stage)|75 m]] (''Donkey Kong'') | |||
*[[Delfino Plaza (stage)|Delfino Plaza]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Figure-8 Circuit (stage)|Figure-8 Circuit]] (''Mario Kart'') | |||
*[[Gamer (stage)|Gamer]] (''Wario'') | |||
*[[Golden Plains]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Hyrule Castle]] (''The Legend of Zelda''){{hover|*|Also appears in Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.}} | |||
*[[Jungle Hijinxs (stage)|Jungle Hijinxs]] (''Donkey Kong'') | |||
*[[Jungle Japes (stage)|Jungle Japes]] (''Doneky Kong'') | |||
*[[Kongo Falls]] (''Donkey Kong'') | |||
*[[Kongo Jungle (Super Smash Bros.)|Kongo Jungle]] (''Donkey Kong'') | |||
*[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]] (''Mario'') | |||
| | |||
*[[Mario Bros. (stage)|Mario Bros.]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mario Circuit (Super Smash Bros. for Wii U)|Mario Circuit]] (''Mario Kart'') | |||
*[[Mario Galaxy (stage)|Mario Galaxy]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Smash Bros.)|Mushroom Kingdom (64)]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Mushroom Kingdom (''Melee'')]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mushroom Kingdom II]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mushroom Kingdom U]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Mushroomy Kingdom]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[New Donk City Hall]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Paper Mario (stage)|Paper Mario]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Peach's Castle (Super Smash Bros.)|Peach's Castle (64)]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Princess Peach's Castle (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Princess Peach's Castle (''Melee'')]] (''Mario'') | |||
| | |||
*[[Rainbow Cruise]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[Rainbow Road (stage)|Rainbow Road]] (''Mario Kart'') | |||
*[[Rumble Falls (stage)|Rumble Falls]] (''Donkey Kong'') | |||
*[[Super Happy Tree (stage)|Super Happy Tree]] (''Yoshi'') | |||
*[[Super Mario Maker (stage)|Super Mario Maker]] (''Mario'') | |||
*[[WarioWare, Inc. (stage)|WarioWare, Inc.]] (''Wario'') | |||
*[[Woolly World]] (''Yoshi'') | |||
*[[Wrecking Crew (stage)|Wrecking Crew]] (''Wrecking Crew'') | |||
*[[Wuhu Island]] (''Wii Sports''){{hover|*|Also appears in Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.}} | |||
*[[Yoshi's Island (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)|Yoshi's Island (''Brawl'')]] (''Yoshi'') | |||
*[[Yoshi's Island (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Yoshi's Island (''Melee'')]] (''Yoshi'') | |||
*[[Yoshi's Story (stage)|Yoshi's Story]] (''Yoshi'') | |||
|} | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': <s>April 19, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> April 26, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per updated proposal. Please make sure to also explain what would be done with all that extra information (if anything). | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Actually, as I'm looking at those stage pages, they are pretty short, and far more suitable for a list page than the characters. The longer ones can be trimmed a bit. | |||
#{{User|Shiny K-Troopa}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Sure. Consistent with [[List of The Subspace Emissary stages]], [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Melee]] etc. | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} I mean... we have made everything else in Smash into a list, how about stages too? | |||
#{{User|Mario}} I'm gonna support but I have a good feeling that these resulting list articles are stage 3 terminal versions of our Smash Bros. coverage. | |||
#{{User|Ray Trace}} tbh im not a huge fan of the lists either. i would just kill them entirely and have the subjects externally link to smashwiki | |||
<s>#{{User|Wikiboy10}} We have merged the fighters, items, and other stuff from this series, we might as well do this. Since the supporter didn't do a good job of explaining why this needs to happen, our stance on ''Super Smash Bros.'' is that it's not in the same vein of crossovers in comparison to ''Mario & Sonic''. Honestly, I feel the opposition's reasoning is just based on how poorly this proposal is written, rather than because we shouldn't do it.</s> | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I get how we are trimming down our Smash Bros. coverage, however you are going to need to be more specific on how this is going to work. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all. | |||
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} You have made zero effort to elaborate on various aspects of this merge, such as whether this merge involves minutiae like pertinent images, song tables, profiles etc., but most outstandingly, the proposal, intentionally or otherwise, makes a tacit statement that the Mario series stages themselves would also be merged together with the others, which is basically where my opposition is most strong. I assume this is a follow-up to the fighter proposal, which would imply that it aims to round up non-Mario Smash subjects of a particular nature into one page, in which case even a simple statement along those lines would have gone a long way towards clarification. You're basically relying on your voters' guesswork to sort this thing out.</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne, and lumping 3DS and Wii U into the same page is also a strange decision since they introduced almost completely different stages to each other.</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|Swallow}} Per Koopa con Carne, this needs some serious elaboration rather than just "merge everything".</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|Spectrogram}} Proposal fails to even mention ''Mario''-related stages and what would be done with extra information.</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Koopa con Carne, this proposal is unclear on too many aspects currently to consider supporting.</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|SeanWheeler}} While I like that we're cutting down on Smash Bros. content, those lists of fighters give me flashbacks of the Banjo and Conker series pages, so I don't want the stages to be given that treatment. I'm honestly quite confused about which non-Mario characters gets their own pages and which ones are sections of the fighter lists. And it's unclear with this proposal about what happens with the Mario stages.</s> | |||
====Comments==== | |||
'''@Teh Other''', note that you still have three days to edit the proposal. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:15, April 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
@Wikiboy10 It's not only poorly written, even this needs specifics on what exactly will happen. The proposal reasoning implies it will impact absolutely everything which is not a very good way of going about this sort of thing. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:07, April 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
Funnily enough, I just removed my vote because now I realized the biggest flaw with this proposal: Would this include the ''Mario'', ''Donkey Kong'', ''Wario'', ''Yoshi'', and ''Wrecking Crew'' stages too? Please clarify that. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 15:10, April 13, 2023 (EDT) | |||
Why should the stages be merged and not playable characters? I think the stages are like the second most visible aspect of Super Smash Bros. {{User:Mario/sig}} 01:16, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:The fighters have been/are being merged already. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
@Teh Other Could you clarify what exactly you intend to happen with the 3DS and Wii U stages? The proposal is still unclear about that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:Yeah, I think that's important too. I'm about to revote for this once it's more clear. We definitely need to merge the stages now, but we need better information. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 11:26, April 14, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Classify ''Just Dance'' series as a guest appearance=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|green|guest appearance 5-3}} | |||
In ''Just Dance 3'', there is a song named "Just Mario" with a whole [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39L-M5nhx6Y theming] around it. Spinies on the background, horsetail plants, and Mario Mario himself, dancing at the center of the screen. Exclusively for ''Just Dance 2018'' Switch version, there is... Rabbid Peach, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7YFao1Ek0E dancing] next to Peach's Castle. With a whole theme going around these two songs, I believe it's fair to call the series a guest appearance. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Mario is just that good at dancing | |||
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} 💃 | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal. | |||
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.</s> | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} If we aren't going to consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) a guest appearance, then we should also treat this as a cameo. The ''Mario'' elements play no role in the gameplay. If you're going to use the argument that the character blatantly appears in it, so did Mario in ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES). Even if I would classify these games, I think we should create two different articles on it. | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Why create a series page for two games Mario guest appeared in? We should only do series pages for Mario spinoffs. We'd might as well do a Sonic series page or a Legend of Zelda series page if Just Dance gets a series page here. The Just Dance guest appearances should have a page for each game instead. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per SeanWheeler, but I'd support an option to make individual pages for the games with Mario content. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
i mean, if its got mario stuff in it then yeah its a guest appearance. my question is does this really need a proposal? {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 22:02, April 20, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:[[SMW:CV]]<br>''"Please note that a proposal should be made before a game is classified as a "guest appearance", as this is a somewhat tricky distinction and there could easily be disagreement in the community about the extent to which coverage should be granted to any given non-Mario game."'' [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 01:21, April 21, 2023 (EDT) | |||
So would this classify the whole series as a guest appearance or just those two games with Mario content? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:19, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:The whole series because: a) stand-alone articles on two of these games just wouldn't be a good idea, and b) it's just better to keep all ''Mario'' content on one page for the whole ''Just Dance'' series. If Nintendo ever partners with them again and another ''Mario'' song gets released, would we need to make a third page? These games are way too similar. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:16, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::So I'm assuming the page name would be "''Just Dance'' (series)"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:19, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::Why not just ''Just Dance''? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 12:01, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::::[[MarioWiki:Naming]]: "Game series articles always get a series identifier regardless of whether or not the title is shared, such as [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'' (series)]]." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:00, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::::Not sure I agree with this rule, but in this case, yes [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 13:06, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
@WikiBoy10, Punch Out literally only has Mario as a referee (and that's it). These two songs clearly have tons of effort put into, combining elements from two separate ''Mario'' games. Comparing this to Punch Out is just fractally wrong. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:57, April 23, 2023 (EDT) | |||
There's already a precedent for lumping multiple "Guest Appearance" games with the [[Skylanders: SuperChargers]] page, which covers the title game, the "Racing" version for last-gen consoles and the character's appearance in Imaginators. Making a separate page for each Just Dance game that has a Mario song in it is an insane suggestion to me, they're ''very'' iterative games. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:57, April 27, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Remove articles about ''Sonic'' characters=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|canceled}} | |||
This is a wiki covering the entirety of the ''Mario'' franchise, and as such, full articles about every ''Sonic'' character are unnecessary (at least put a mention to them with the <code>sonicretro:</code> appender between double square brackets). Also, the articles themselves are somehow, poorly written ([[Dr. Eggman]] has one large paragraph for London Olympic Games, and one-liners for every other game he has appeared in). | |||
I propose that the ''Sonic'' character articles should be reduced to a list featuring a brief description of each character, like "List of fighters debuting in [insert ''Smash'' title here]", or mention them with the <code>sonicretro:</code> appender. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|PnnyCrygr}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': May 7, 2023, 15:05 EDT<br> | |||
'''Date withdrawn''': April 30, 2023 | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per my reasons. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} The Mario and Sonic games are fully within our coverage and the Sonic characters should definitely still have articles covering their appearances in those games. | |||
#{{user|Blhte}} per Swallow. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Although I've mentioned this idea before, after thinking about it more I've decided against it because I don't see a reason to exclude the ''Mario'' & Sonic games from full coverage. This shouldn't happen unless we decide to make a big change to the [[MarioWiki:Coverage|coverage policy]], which would probably require us to cut down on other crossover content as well, for example the Dragon Quest characters who we cover because of [[Fortune Street]]. Articles being poorly written is a bad reason to delete them, it just means we should rewrite them to not be poorly written. Also, making a list page for them and externally linking them are two very different solutions, so you probably shouldn't be lumping them into the same support option. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
I think this proposal should be vetoed; i now understand Hewer's points. {{User|PnnyCrygr}} | |||
:This proposal is new enough that you can remove it yourself as long as you add it to the archive. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:52, April 30, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Discourage drive-by templating part 2=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|green|passed 21-0}} | |||
Building off of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage_drive-by_templating|this proposal]], I propose taking this one step further with some more templates that are often used. Suggestions to merge, split, and rename articles are frequently made using the relevant templates, but many times that's the end of it and no talk page discussion is ever started. The reasons for the suggested change are left behind in a quickly buried edit summary, or not elaborated on at all. That makes it a lot harder for users to know why the change was suggested in the first place, and to discuss whether to do it. | |||
If this passes, then these templates must be accompanied by either an '''active''' discussion or proposal. The discussion/proposal doesn't need to be on the talk page of the article where the template is used, but it does need to exist somewhere, and the template needs to link to the appropriate page. I'm hesitant to define what counts as an active discussion here, because I think it's fair to have some level of discretion there - personally, I would say that if there hasn't been any engagement whatsoever in the past 365 days, the discussion isn't active anymore (please be aware that this is not set in stone). This is to prevent having these templates left behind while attached to discussions that are years old - like proposals, if you suggest a change it's up to you (or the other supporters) to see that through and keep it active until a consensus is reached. | |||
Articles where the proposed changes are enforced by a proposal but not enacted yet are exempt, as a decision has already been made. However, the proposal field of these templates should be used to link to the relevant proposal. | |||
The following templates will be affected: | |||
*[[Template:Merge to]] | |||
*[[Template:Merge from]] | |||
*[[Template:Split]] | |||
*[[Template:Move]] | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': May 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} yeah | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Glowsquid}} Per... | |||
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} "Yeah" indeed. (To be honest, I thought this was something the previous proposal did...) | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Explaining '''why''' you suggest a split/merge/move in the edit summary is horrible for wiki maintenance. The reasoning is often very hard to find (if it even exists), and the templates end up linking to a red link talk page. If you can't be bothered to actually start a discussion on the changes you want to see made, then you shouldn't be allowed to use these templates in the first place. | |||
#{{User|Platform}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Yeah, fully on board with this. I've seen this template many times and it often doesn't have any sort of discussion tying to it. | |||
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all, I've seen so many instances of this with no discussion to be found anywhere. | |||
#{{user|7feetunder}} This is exactly what I had brought up on the previous proposal. | |||
#{{User|Camwood777}} - Please? (because a "per proposal" doesn't drive home the urgency.) | |||
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Pretty please. Way too many instances of articles having these specific tags but never linking to talk pages, or any other way to give out what the reason for it's inclusion is. I especially hate it when the reason is hidden away in edit summaries, like, edit summaries are only ment for telling what you did on a page, it is NOT for explaining complex topics that better warrant an entire discussion on a talk page. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. The there are a lot of pages that have had those templates up for a very long time yet nothing had been done about it. | |||
#{{User|Mario}} All per | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} I thought this had been decided after the previous proposal already. I actually have already been removing some of these if there was no discussion at all or hadn't been active for a while. | |||
#{{user|Koopa con Carne}} per all | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Glad we are adding clarity to our templates now. | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Sure, I guess we could add reasoning to those templates. | |||
#{{user|Shokora}} – Per all | |||
#{{user|0blivion}} Per all. | |||
#{{user|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
<s>#{{User|Wikiboy10}} This adds too much control to the wiki and kinda dictates it. Mind you, the previous proposal was made to fix users adding templates for no reason. Plus, other wikis don't act like this. And if that argument sounds weak, it was used for merging various Smash articles. The history section exists for you to go look for it. And if you don't agree with the template, you just delete it. I apologize if this support was a bit too informal; I just need to get my points out there. I know for a fact that this proposal will succeed.</s> | |||
====Comments==== | |||
@Wikiboy10: The goal of this proposal is the same as the last one, getting rid of vague templates. A request for a rewrite or more images that doesn't actually specify what's wrong with the page is only a little more useless than a suggestion to merge a page with no reasoning - at least the suggested course of action is there, but the reasons why aren't, making it harder than necessary to come to a decision. This is meant to make maintenance easier for our userbase in the long run, and I don't see how requiring users to state their reasons for a suggested change is any more "controlling" than requiring users to specify why they're putting a rewrite template on a page. | |||
The actions of other wikis have no bearing on how we do things, and never should, period. Every community is different and things that work for their organization, maintenance, and policies may not work for another wiki and vice-versa. We can certainly look to other wikis to see what ideas might be worth adapting and what's failed in the past, but it shouldn't be the basis of our decisions. Even using Smash as an example, there's several much more solid arguments to be made for reducing or cutting that content. A proposal that rested solely on "we should cut non-Mario Smash content because Bulbapedia doesn't cover non-Pokemon Smash content", for example, would've flopped horribly. I find it concerning how often "other NIWA wikis don't do this" or "SmashWiki exists" has been brought up in the recent Smash proposals, because apparently this attitude is now spreading to other issues and has been given the appearance of legitimacy, when historically it's been one of the flimsiest arguments used here for good reason. | |||
The issue isn't just the reasoning being left in summaries, but that's a big enough problem already and it's been brought up by supporters why this is a bad idea. Also keep in mind that these templates sometimes stay up for years at a time, and especially on high-traffic pages, those summaries can be buried quick. Providing reasons for suggested changes to articles is simply not what page history is meant for, and drops the responsibility on someone else to start a discussion. However, many times users don't leave an edit summary at all. It didn't take long for me to find an example of this - [[Big Bungee Piranha]]. There's no discussion on the talk page, or on Bungee Bud's talk page either. The discuss button is a red link, in fact. Neither page's edit history has any reasoning for the suggestion. At the bare minimum, there's not even any edit summary that would suggest the template was added, making tracking down the original user who added it to contact them directly needlessly difficult. Maybe there's a discussion about this ''somewhere'', but if there is, I'd have no idea where to look. What's the point of leaving this template up? In some cases, it may be fairly easy for someone else to fill in the blanks, others might be more difficult and rely on obscure material, but it really should be up to the person who suggests the change to follow through and explain why we should do it. | |||
Finally, deleting merge/split/rename templates just because you disagree with the suggestion is a very bad idea that will most likely lead to edit warring. It's the exact opposite of what should be done, discussion until a consensus is reached. | |||
Apologies for the long comment, but I felt the need to address these points. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:05, April 28, 2023 (EDT) | |||
"''Plus, other wikis don't act like this. And if that argument sounds weak, it was used for merging various Smash articles.''" If you're referring to a couple misguided support votes in those proposals, maybe. But none of the proposals out of those that actually succeeded were built on that principle, so I suggest you not spread misinformation. As others including WT above have said time and again, there is no inherent, indisputable benefit in modelling this wiki after others. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:40, April 28, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:I will admit, I barely started my own wiki and I am currently trying to get rid of spambots at the moment. I feel you guys are more experienced and nuanced on this stuff than I am. I have a hard time adapting to major changes and I tend to see maintenance templates as a rather important thing on wikis; they save a lot of behinds. When I read this proposal, I felt the idea could be difficult to implement and would require tons of back and forth. I haven't seen a wiki that does tells people to make propsoals for labeling a template, I love to see it; it might help me think about the issue here.I apologize for the misinformed information; I misremembered reading something from Glowsquid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Glowsquid.27s_comment|in regards to NIWA wikis doing X.]] I reread it again and it was completely different than what I remembered. It was this qoute, "But the "we shouldn't base ourselves on other wikis" goes both ways; just as the fact NIWA wikis don't cover Smash Bros anywhere as rigolously as we do is not an argument in itself for scaling back our coverage, the feeling that the main Smash Bros ressource is lacking in some respects is not an argument to keep it either." You guys win. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 17:17, April 28, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::Oh, to clarify, a proposal wouldn't be necessary to place one of these templates. There just needs to be somewhere on a talk page where the reasons are provided to discuss the change (which may or may not be a TPP). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:24, April 28, 2023 (EDT) | |||
===Create interwiki link templates to current and former NIWA wikis and other wikis=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do nothing 1-4}} | |||
Whether they're current or former, the NIWA wikis have interwiki links. I was wondering if we could make interwiki link templates to the current and former NIWA wikis' pages. | |||
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"data-expandtext="Show sample"data-collapsetext="Hide sample"> | |||
{|align=center style=background:#FFF; text-align:center;border-collapse:collapse cellpadding=3 border=1 | |||
!Code | |||
!Link | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Sonic Retro | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{sr|Sonic the Hedgehog}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[sonicretro:Sonic the Hedgehog|Sonic the Hedgehog]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{sr|Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit)|Sonic the Hedgehog}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[sonicretro:Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit)|Sonic the Hedgehog]]'' | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Zelda Wiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{zw|The Legend of Zelda}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda|The Legend of Zelda]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{zw|The Legend of Zelda (Series)|''The Legend of Zelda'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda (Series)|''The Legend of Zelda'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Bulbapedia | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{bp|Pokémon}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[bulbapedia:Pokémon|Pokémon]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{bp|Pikachu (Pokémon)|Pikachu}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[bulbapedia:Pikachu (Pokémon)|Pikachu]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Metroid Wiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{met|Samus Aran}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[metroidwiki:Samus Aran|Samus Aran]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{met|Metroid (game)|Metroid}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[metroidwiki:Metroid (game)|Metroid]]'' | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|WiKirby | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{wk|Kirby's Dream Land}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[wikirby:Kirby's Dream Land|Kirby's Dream Land]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{wk|Kirby (series)|''Kirby'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[wikirby:Kirby (series)|''Kirby'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Wars Wiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{ww|Advance Wars}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[warswiki:Advance Wars|Advance Wars]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{ww|Advance Wars (series)|''Advance Wars'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[warswiki:Advance Wars (series)|''Advance Wars'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Lylat Wiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{lw|Fox McCloud}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[lylatwiki:Fox McCloud|Fox McCloud]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{lw|Star Fox (series)|''Star Fox'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[lylatwiki:Star Fox (series)|''Star Fox'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Pikipedia | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{pk|Captain Olimar}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[pikipedia:Captain Olimar|Captain Olimar]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{pk|Pikmin (game)|Pikmin}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[pikipedia:Pikmin (game)|Pikmin]]'' | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Pikmin Fanon | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{pkf|Pikmin family}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[pikminfanon:Pikmin family|Pikmin family]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{pkf|Hocotate ship|The ship}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[pikminfanon:Hocotate ship|The ship]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|StrategyWiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{sw|Super Mario Odyssey}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[strategywiki:Super Mario Odyssey|Super Mario Odyssey]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{sw|Super Mario World/Yoshi's House|Yoshi's House}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[strategywiki:Super Mario World/Yoshi's House|Yoshi's House]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|SmashWiki | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{sbw|Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[smashwiki:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{sbw|Mario (SSBU)|Mario in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[smashwiki:Mario (SSBU)|Mario in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'']] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|WikiBound | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{wb|Ness}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[wikibound:Ness|Ness]] | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{wb|EarthBound (series)|''EarthBound'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[wikibound:EarthBound (series)|''EarthBound'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Nookipedia | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{np|Animal Crossing}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[nookipedia:Animal Crossing|Animal Crossing]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{np|Animal Crossing (series)|''Animal Crossing'' series}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|[[nookipedia:Animal Crossing (series)|''Animal Crossing'' series]] | |||
|- | |||
!colspan=2|Golden Sun Universe | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>{{gsu|Isaac}}</nowiki></code> | |||
|''[[goldensun:Isaac|Isaac]]'' | |||
|- | |||
|<code><nowiki>''{{gsu|Golden Sun (game)|Golden Sun}}''</nowiki></code> | |||
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|''[[fireemblem:Fire Emblem Engage|Fire Emblem Engage]]'' | |||
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</div> | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': May 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Not needed. | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per Porplemontage and SeanWheeler. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | |||
====Comments==== | |||
That's a lot of templates, and additional shorthands to remember, when the prefixes themselves work just fine. If you don't want to type things twice, just do <code><nowiki>[[zeldawiki:Link|]]</nowiki></code>. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 18:58, May 5, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:[[zeldawiki:Link|Link]]. Oh! That does work. Makes your templates pointless doesn't it? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:11, May 5, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::So are you going to protect these templates from creation? {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 19:27, May 11, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::I don't think that would be necessary unless those templates are constantly deleted and recreated. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 22:42, May 11, 2023 (EDT) |
Latest revision as of 12:32, April 1, 2024
Make changes on Yoshi franchise articlesDo not make changes 1-4 Proposer: Teh Other (talk) SupportOppose
CommentsThis proposal really needs more options; primarily to be able to support one or the other rather than only all at once. Nightwicked Bowser 20:43, December 31, 2022 (EST)
You should probably have a project page to show how this would look if passed. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:13, January 11, 2023 (EST) Create Mario Kart course redirects with game prefixes for recurring track namescreate redirects for all courses 2-11-0 For my first point: Series convention has people referring to these tracks this way even outside of official contexts, and people aren't going to take the time to think about whether a certain course came back before typing it into the search box. Heck, even I, whose editing hangout spots include not one but two lists of which courses appear in which games, find myself sooner typing "DS Bowser's Castle" into the search bar than "Bowser Castle (Mario Kart DS)", if only because one is shorter. I do not believe these would be in violation of our redirect policy, as these names are neither silly (being an extension of series convention) nor ambiguous (there's only one course "Wii Mario Circuit" could be referring to). These are really the only criteria they need to meet, as the policy is otherwise very encouraging of redirects. Now, my initial proposal was to do this for all unprefixed courses with recurring names, not counting MK8 or spinoffs since we don't know for sure what their prefixes would be. This results in this list:
It seems a bit excessive to me, but I realized while writing this that I may want to include an option to do this for every course (aside from MK8 and spinoffs), so I'm also including that as an option. DOUBLE EDIT: I've changed the second option to be what the edited-in third option was, since I didn't realize I was leaving Tour out when I first made it. I am sorry if this causes confusion. Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk) Create the redirects listed aboveCreate these redirects for every course (aside from MK8, Arcade GP, and Home Circuit)
Don't create redirectsCommentsI would say "Create redirects for all unprefixed courses from MK7 or before", however I believe that Mario Kart Tour courses should be included in this list, so the page Tour Singapore Speedway would redirect to Singapore Speedway's article. For now, i will vote the option i mentioned earlier, but if you create an extra option to include Tour courses, then i'd vote that one - YoYo (Talk) 19:28, January 21, 2023 (EST)
Ahemtoday, you can still change the second option to include tour courses, the rules state you can append proposals within the first three days of it being written. Im sure if the people voting for it care enough about the other games having the redirects, they'd agree to Tour courses too - YoYo (Talk) 12:02, January 22, 2023 (EST) I'd rather have the prefixes removed from the course names that are unique (and keep them for those that have different iterations such as (character) Circuit or Rainbow Road courses, obviously) then make prefix redirects. I honestly dislike how Tour courses that got added to BCP have the prefix, but those that has yet to be added did not. — Stache (talk) 23:00, January 23, 2023 (EST) Decide what to do with StreetPass Mii PlazaTrim and classify as guest appearance 5-0 Proposer: Spectrogram (talk) Trim and classify as a guest appearance
Classify as a guest appearance (no trimming)Merge and redirectCommentsMerge certain non-Mario fighters from the Super Smash Bros. series into game-specific lists and trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fightersTrim detailed special move information, merge fighters into game-specific lists 16-11 I'll first reiterate my feelings on non-Mario concepts featured in this series: in my view, Mario Wiki's mission is indeed to provide information on anything the Mario cast interacts with, and the various Super Smash Bros. concepts, therefore, deserve by all means the privilege to be covered in some way, shape, or form. The problem is that these concepts are currently presented in excessive detail, much of which is specific to these concepts and perhaps as far-removed from Mario as one can get. I believe the two courses of action proposed here go hand in hand towards offering a much more streamlined coverage for the subjects that lack enough notability within the bona fide Mario franchise. Following the standard of the List of Super Smash Bros. series items and List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses, my initial plan was to propose merging fighters who have had no significant presence within the Mario franchise into one list housing all their current Smash-related information, in addition to, perhaps, any other relevant information from other Mario-related media where they had cameos and mentions. Realising that the resulting page would be excessively long and more than likely violate the article size policy tenfold, I came up with a compromise that aims to achieve a similar effect:
A few notes:
With all that said, affected pages include:
The following pages will remain unaffected:
I put together a sample layout that would inspire the appearance of these new fighter list pages; particularities, such as image size and whether or not fighters with intra-Wiki "main article" tags need an image to begin with, are negotiable. Page title: List of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate fighters This is a list of fighters in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Mario
Link
Ness
Ness appears as an unlockable playable fighter in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. While his moveset is mostly unchanged from the previous Super Smash Bros. titles, he has received various new tweaks to his moves. Ness now emits PSI when pummeling opponents and while using his neutral aerial. His up aerial, rather than headbutting, has him waving his hands in the air. In addition, for his PK Fire and PSI Magnet moves, graphics are taken from EarthBound. He and Lucas have a new victory theme, which is an arrangement of the last two of the Eight Melodies from EarthBound Beginnings. Several of Ness's attacks receive names: his forward smash is called Batter Up!, his up smash is called Around the World, his down smash is called Walk the Dog, his forward throw is called PK Throw, and his back throw is called Reverse PK Throw.
Simon
Simon Belmont is a protagonist from Konami's Castlevania video game series, debuting in its very first entry. He makes his Super Smash Bros. debut in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate as a third-party playable character, alongside fellow Konami characters Solid Snake and Richter Belmont, his descendant. He was announced to be playable in the game during the August 2018 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Direct, alongside fellow newcomers Richter, Chrom, Dark Samus, and King K. Rool. Simon's various attacks involve him using his "Vampire Killer" whip. His special attacks are Axe, an axe that is a powerful projectile; Holy Water, a magical, multi-hitting projectile dealing flame damage; Cross, a projectile with boomerang-esque properties; and Uppercut, a powerful uppercut that functions as Simon's recovery move. His Final Smash, Grand Cross, involves trapping players in a coffin and destroying it. Simon's whip is long-ranged, being effective to use from far distances. Simon's forward, back, and up aerials also function as tether recoveries, making them useful for recovering when close to an edge. Keith Silverstein, Simon's English voice actor in Castlevania: Judgment, reprises his role as Simon. Hideo Ishikawa, who voiced Simon in DreamMix TV World Fighters, also reprises the role in the Japanese version. In his debut trailer, he arrives at Dracula's Castle and eliminates Death shortly after the latter killed Luigi. He later confronts Dracula himself but is nearly defeated, only to be saved by his descendant Richter.[1] Similar to King Dedede in Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Lucina in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U, Simon's name is announced differently in the Japanese version to reflect the pronunciation in that language. This trait is also shared with Richter and King K. Rool. In the Adventure mode, Simon is seen standing near a cliff when he and the other fighters oppose Galeem for the first time. Although Simon is not shown to be hit by Galeem's beams directly, he, like every fighter except Kirby, is imprisoned in the World of Light, where a Galeem-serving puppet fighter of him is created. Simon is later freed after his puppet fighter is defeated, and he subsequently joins Kirby's team against Galeem and later Dharkon. Simon is a heavy fighter, being heavier than Snake, R.O.B., and Banjo & Kazooie but lighter than Samus, Bowser Jr. (and the Koopalings), Dark Samus, and Terry, while having the same weight as Wario, Ike, Ridley, and Richter.
Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk) Support
Oppose
Comments@Wikiboy10, err, there's a specific statement right there in the proposal that Subspace Emissary info will be kept. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:44, January 23, 2023 (EST) @Waluigi Time: Where do we draw a line between condensation and removal of information? What about the former bonuses pages: that information was outright removed due to being irrelevant and having equivalent coverage on the Smash Wiki. The amount of detail given to each character's special move set is similarly completely out of line with this website's scope and is being better handled on the other wiki. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:01, January 23, 2023 (EST)
@Paper Jorge: As far as the wiki is concerned, fighters and stages are just another aspect of the game, regardless of how you or anyone else perceives them. Fighters may be the game's main draw, but that essentially only plays into player preference and sympathy, and this is their only claim to coverage priority on this wiki; there otherwise exists zero ingrained, objective priority to cover one group of Smash subjects better than another. (Name one besides "characters are playable and I relate to them more than to an inanimate object".) The proposals that aimed to restrict information on stages, trophies and the whole shebang had too many options, and Smash coverage is already contentious as it is, so it's not difficult to see why these proposals had users pulling in different directions, yet those subjects should definitely be revisited especially if this proposal, by a miracle, succeeds. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 08:54, January 24, 2023 (EST) Unlike crossovers where Mario franchise makes up a very large portion of the game, such as Sonic or Fortune Street, Smash should be covered as a guest appearance. There is no reason why a series with countless franchises put together should be covered in full. Mario elements deserve pages, I don't understand why we should bother with the rest. Spectrogram (talk) 14:06, January 24, 2023 (EST)
I would like to point out that opposition is right that spirits, trophies and stickers should be trimmed. Spectrogram (talk) 01:34, January 27, 2023 (EST) There are many arguments here, so let me explain my stance on this. We have crossover games, guest appearance games, and cameo games. The crossover games are stuff where the whole point is that these franchises are interacting with each other. For example, Mario & Sonic are about the Mario and Sonic characters competing at the Olympics. That's a crossover. Mario characters team up with the Rabbids. Another crossover. Calling those guest appearances would severely downplay how much of a significant role these other characters have. Guest appearances are when Mario elements have a prominent role in the game's story or have one of them as a playable character. The NBA game is an excellent example since that game does not advertise itself as a crossover. Also, while Nintendo Land does try to reference various Nintendo franchises, the games are primarily self-contained and don't crossover with each other. Link's Awakening only gets the article because Wart plays a minor role in the game's plot. The same case for the Starfy article for Wario. Cameo games are when games where that are more subtle or are just minor gags, if anything. The Zelda series occasionally likes to reuse enemies such as Chain Chomps and Lakitus, but those are more like fun nods than serious significant crossovers. The reason for Link's Awakening was because of Wart, who has retroactively become part of the franchise. LEGO City Undercover has tons of Mario-related cameos in the game, but many are just gags. The closest thing to the characters are the Mario enemies. Super Smash Bros. is very tricky because it's hard to fit into any of those categories. Not a cameo game because the Mario characters play a significant role in it. Calling it a guest appearance would also be wrong because the games are treated as crossover games with Nintendo characters fighting. Starting with Ultimate, it's become a general crossover game, not just Nintendo. Calling it a crossover is thorny because, while Nintendo treats them as crossovers, there are all on the same level. Ultimately (no pun intended), you'd have to reach a compromise. Not a cameo game, more than just a guest appearance, kind of a crossover. So here's the thing. It's a crossover franchise, but barely. It meets just the bare minimum for such a qualifier. If there is just barely enough to qualify, that's good enough for me. The pages serve as a helpful tool for people to know what non-Mario character has a role in the franchise. Remember that Amiibo support for the Smash figures is a thing in multiple Mario games. Sure, it's just minor stuff (I'm not for giving Hello Kitty an article) but historically interesting to document. Also, to Somethingone, the Smash games are indeed mentioned in Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. Wikiboy10 (talk) 13:37, January 27, 2023 (EST)
I'd like to ask the supporters a question specifically regarding the organizational method proposed here, which is to merge the fighters into separate lists by game. What this means is that, with the exception of Ultimate newcomers, the information on them will be split up and scattered across anywhere from 2-5 pages, depending on the character. The Ultimate list would not go into detail repeating details that are unchanged from Sm4sh, or any other comparable situation - the example provided actually shows this with Ness, merely saying that he is "mostly unchanged from the previous Super Smash Bros. titles" while providing no help to the reader to actually find that information. Keep in mind that on a surface level, Ness has pretty much remained unchanged since Melee, besides getting a Final Smash in Brawl, and still has a lot of elements retained from the original 64 game. So if you want to find out what Ness is like in Ultimate, the page for that game is actually pretty useless, and you instead have to track down that information split across three other pages (Sm4sh muddying the waters by being an extra page that's not very useful here), trying to piece together which information still applies, instead of simply being able to scroll. Is this actually a setup you would find ideal and helpful for readers, or are at least some of you just caught up in the idea of less Smash content? Whether you think the fighters deserve any coverage isn't important here, as this proposal does not remove that coverage. It's still going to be here, so it should be organized as best as we can. Even if I were supportive of trimming Smash, I don't think I could support this. I would sooner support keeping all the information on each character in one place, whether that's accomplished through "List of fighters introduced in X" pages for each game (a subtle change, but one that would improve this a lot), or just all fighters being merged to one page for the entire series.
I have thought about this proposal a lot, and I will say that I think that I would be more willing to consider supporting if it was organized the way that Waluigi Time suggested above. While merging character articles goes further than I personally prefer, I do understand the reasoning, but I would like it to be done in a way that is actually convenient for readers. I think one main thing that doesn't really sit right with me about the proposal is the fact that merging characters is being considered before smaller things like trophy, sticker, and spirit lists, as well as some other things such as bonus stages and challenges (Snag the Trophies!, Race to the Finish! (minigame)). --TheFlameChomp (talk) 18:18, January 27, 2023 (EST)
"yet nobody batted an eye when we suddenly stopped covering Smash information in full on Mario's own article without any prior discussion?"Just to clarify, the information I cut wasn't because it was Smash Bros. coverage creep. I was in the process of cutting down excessive plot details in the Mario page (which is huge and we need to split off the history section at some point, sooner the better imo, which I did bring up) and I did exactly that to this section. I redirected to SmashWiki's page because it seemed like the best place for readers to see Mario's role in the Subspce Emissary. Sure, I could redirect it to a section in Brawl's main page or a related article on MarioWiki if not that, but then you'll have a lot of information iirelevant to the character's role in the plot, so I settled on SmashWiki's page. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:33, January 27, 2023 (EST) Merge "Yoshi (platform series)" and "Yoshi (puzzle series)" into "Yoshi (franchise)"merge the pages 5-0 Proposer: Teh Other (talk) Merge
Leave the way they areCommentsIt's time to talk about Visual Editor once againcanceled by proposer Wikipedia has a Visual Editor. I see time and time again newer users who don't yet understand source editor go for Visual Editor instead. Source editor makes perfect sense for us, but not for everyone. Sure, newer users should learn the source editor, but for some people it takes time. We shouldn't discourage newer users from editing. It doesn't take away anything. It is a toggleable option for those who choose to use it. It can be helpful for more experienced users too. It's overall a win-win situation. It doesn't take away anything, and it only improves the experience of everyone on the wiki. If Wikipedia is using it, clearly the Visual Editor is alright. Thanks for reading. Proposer: Spectrogram (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsYou seem to have missed a very important point brought up in the previous proposal: namely, that this is not something that can be decided purely through proposal. Implementing new tech is something that's up to Porplemontage (talk), the proprietor of the wiki, since it's work he would have to do. Talk to him about it first, and if he wants community feedback, then you can make a proposal about it. If you can get his approval, then I don't see a problem with implementing Visual Editor, but it's something he has no obligation to do. 17:33, February 24, 2023 (EST)
Discourage drive-by templatingRequire improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles 25-0 Through conversations on our Discord server, I've found other editors share my frustration with this behaviour. Fortunately, I believe there's an easy fix. Most improvement templates have parameters to explain in the template text why the template was added to a page, and any improvement template that currently does not incorporate this can be easily modified to have it. As such I propose, should this pass, that from this point, any improvement template added to a page must have its reason parameter filled with specific, actionable points. Emphasis on the "specific" - just saying a page has "bad writing" or "is missing images" without specifically saying what is bad about the writing or what images are missing won't cut mustard. Any currently-used instances that do not have their parameter filled (or only give a vague reason) will be removed, although it does not mean the templates can't be readded if specific reasons are listed. Proposer: Glowsquid (talk) Require improvement templates to have their reason parameter filled, remove unfilled/vague notices on mainspace articles
Keep things as they areCommentsThis is probably a given already, but will this also apply to "more image" templates? Again, what kind of images required should be stated as well. Nightwicked Bowser 21:42, February 27, 2023 (EST)
Two questions: Specifically what templates would be covered under this proposal? And what would happen to existing examples of unhelpful templates on the wiki already? (i.e.: Donkey Kong's page, Kamek's page) Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion (if so I do agree)? — Lady Sophie (T|C) 11:17, February 28, 2023 (EST)
So the templates covered would be the following: "Will they just be removed (per proposal) with no discussion?" Yes. --Glowsquid (talk) 12:41, February 28, 2023 (EST)
As 7feetunder proposed, would it be possible to include Template:Split, Template:Merge to and Template:Merge from in the list? — Lady Sophie (T|C) 17:22, March 2, 2023 (EST)
Trim the Smash Bros trophies pageTrim Smash Bros. trophies pages 11-0 It's pointless content: I think the trophies page, in a way, best illustrate the follibles of treating Smash Bros like it's a Mario game that happens to have other Nintendo characters in it. There's a certain amount of sense in thinking "Well Mario is playable in this game and he can punch Joker so why not have a page on him" but by going from there and treating everything Smash Bros as it's a Mario game, you end up with a situation where spend a lot of bandwith talking about Doshin the Giant, Mach Rider, Judy from F-Zero, etc etc. Characters that have no relevance or presence in the Mario IP, but happens to have some text written about them in a crossover game Mario & co happens to be playable in. We have a precedent for trimming Smash content: A recent proposal agreed to merge characters that don't have any substantial appearance beyond Smash Bros to list pages. It's not been enacted yet - but that's not my problem~ It's not original content: An argument to keep Smash stuff in previous discussions is that the current Smash Wiki we're affiliated with is overtly written for hardcore competitive players in mind and that our Smash Content allows for a "Simple English" alternative for people who don,t care about that stuff. Leaving aside the validity of using the perceived failings of another wiki as a factor in our content, this is so not the case here. It's all straight text dumps directly from the game - text that can be read on other websites and video slideshow of those other trophy galleries. In this instance I believe that, yeah, "just go to Smashwiki" is a valid argument. It's simple. I propose to simply trim those trophies list pages to only the Mario/DK/Wario etc. character and cut the rest. This includes crossover characters that have pages on the wiki - while we may have a Link page because he's in Mario Kart 8, his Smash Bros trophy is about Link the protagonist of his own independent intellectual property and not Link the funny Mario Kart 8 man, and it leads to the bizarre situation of having a listing of Link but not the character his series is named after. Best keep things simple. What about stickers?: Those have a (minor, barely discernible) gameplay purpose so I thought people might object to the removal of relevant gameplay information. What about spirits?: I thought of lumping them in this proposa, but the deal is that because of the format of World of Light, a PNG might not represent a Mario character but may involve characters, items or stages as part of the fight gimmick. I don't know what to do, so I'll let someone else do it. Proposer: Glowsquid (talk)
Keep things as they are, don't trimCommentsHow would this affect characters like Sonic or Link who would be removed from the lists but still have their own pages? Will their trophies still be in their respective profile sections? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:32, March 1, 2023 (EST)
What about the weird situations of some generic subjects? Mainly apple because it has a gameplay purpose, just not Mario-based. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:47, March 2, 2023 (EST) Change the way Super Smash Bros. fighter lists are organisedList fighters by debut Super Smash Bros. game (and include other Mario-related appearances) 9-0 A month ago, a proposal passed to collect Smash fighters who've had no significance within the Mario franchise into lists, each list having a focus on fighter appearances in one particular game. A valuable point was made by the opposers, stating that this particular organisation obfuscates the information and disrupts its continuity, forcing readers to jump between pages to get a thorough impression on only a single character--to say nothing of the fact that any other Mario appearances they had, which are obviously relevant to the wiki, are eviscerated for no reason. The proposal advanced too far in time for me to be able to make changes to it, so I bided my time for another proposal to amend these shortcomings, hence why I personally didn't act upon it. With that said, the present proposal isn't meant to overturn the nitty gritty of the one before it. Before I list the specific stuff that I'm proposing to change, here's a recap of what's gonna stay put:
Now, onto the proposal's actual matter:
A suggestion, nevertheless not obligately imposed by this proposal, is that each fighter who is covered into their own page should have a short, concise statement about an aspect in the Smash series, as per MarioWiki:Empty sections. Something along the lines of "This fighter is available by default in <games>, while they are unlockable in <yet other games>." would work, I think, since it's often the first thing mentioned about a fighter in a given Smash appearance. All of the changes in Option 1 are exemplified in a userspace page I prepared specially for this proposal, which you can view here: User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. As a point of comparison, you can visualise what the previous proposal espoused at this page: User:Koopa con Carne/List of fighters in Super Smash Bros. Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Keep the course of the previous proposalCommentsMerge Mario Kart Tour Kart and Glider variants or Split Character variants: The Threequeldo nothing 5-4-6 I understand I’ve brought this up many times before, be it through discussions or past proposals, and regardless of which solution has been agreed on thus far, I still feel this situation could be handled better. Thus I feel it necessary to revisit the whole ordeal with Mario Kart Tour’s karts and gliders. The way we cover the characters, karts and gliders is still glaringly inconsistent and it feels it gets more inconsistent the more I think about it; character alternates, kart alternates and glider alternates all share the same differences; different favorite and favored courses, differnet visual appearances and different special items/skills/item bonuses. However the characters do not get their own articles (for reasonable reasons), but the karts and gliders, despite being palette swaps, just as Yoshis or Shy Guys are, can have their own articles, creating that inconsistency between not only the character alternates as a whole, but how we naturally treat other palette swaps. And I feel we need to fix that. I’ve brought this topic up at least twice in previous proposals, with the only passable outcome being to create list articles on character variants (something I have still failed to follow through with). But with the arguments against splitting Yoshi colors, I can’t help but be bothered by how the arguments there contradict with how we handle these karts and gliders. One the main arguments being that splitting the Yoshi colors seems excessive. I still don’t understand how extra articles for different colored Yoshis is excessive, but extra articles for different colored Yoshi karts is not excessive. And while splitting Yoshi colors extends to other species, merging karts and gliders does not extend to nearly as many similar problems, with the only real one being the Mario Kart: Double Dash!! karts and several Mario Kart 8 wheel sets. Those, as well as other arguments, are here with my attempts at answering them:
All that being said, I think the options are simple. While I do feel there’s a general agreement on how we cover character alternates, for the sake of keeping all options on the table, I will still include the idea of creating articles for character alternates.
I have made a complete list of each kart and glider and the variants they have on my work page. If there is anything I missed or anything to question, let me know. Proposer: Tails777 (talk) Split Character Variants
Merge Kart and Glider Variants
Do Nothing
CommentsWould articles on separate character variants detail any prior history of that variant? Like, would Mario (Chef) have separate sections on the outfit's appearances in Yoshi's Cookie and Super Mario Odyssey? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 08:54, March 6, 2023 (EST)
@Spectrogram Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your vote. You say you don't think this is the right call, but you're voting for splitting the character variants. Are you merely saying that merging karts and gliders isn't the right call or is there a typo/miswording in there? Tails777 Talk to me!
Change how we display staff ghost information in race course infoboxespassed 10-0 1:36.317 by Nin★Yuya (8 Deluxe) At this point, I feel like it no longer makes sense to display staff ghosts this way. I propose we do it like this:
This 2x2 grid shows the game (and CC), the name of the ghost, and the ghost's time. In the bottom right, we show the ghost's character and vehicle combination as a line of icons, similar to how 8 Deluxe shows them. These would go under an expandable header near the music samples and course maps. Here is a demonstration page where you can see these in action for Yoshi Circuit, as well as see them for other games in the series. While I'm very open to recommendations for how to improve and better implement these, I think this 2x2 grid layout is the best way to cleanly show many staff ghosts' information in a compact space. Proposer: Ahemtoday (talk) Support
OpposeComments@Ahemtoday: I'm all for this proposal, but wouldn't it make more sense for it to go under the "changes" section? This isn't exactly a new feature to me. It's more of a change. Mari0fan100 (talk) 21:42, March 17, 2023 (EDT)
A quick and dirty amendment to the January-February 2023 Smash proposalpassed 5-0
The bolded part was really only supposed to apply to characters who originated from the Mario franchise. Otherwise, it's in direct contradiction with the proposal's goal to indiscriminately trim and/or re-incorporate moveset lists for all non-Mario characters, regardless if they're still supposed to have a full page on this wiki or not. To reiterate, this is because they're hardly Mario-related concepts and can be neatly summarised in a character's entry for a given Smash appearance if they aren't already. So with this proposal, I aim to clarify the statement as the following:
If this proposal passes, a link to this proposal will be added as a footnote in the quoted proposal's main body, though without directly altering the original statement. Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsWill we also be axing stuff like the Classic Mode routes? Palutena's Guidance texts? I'm not entirely sure where to draw the line, but I think there are other things besides the move lists on these articles that are fully the Smash wiki's territory. Ahemtoday (talk) 20:32, March 19, 2023 (EDT)
Add level maps for levels with no mapscancelled by the administrators It's simple. Many levels in this wiki from many games have no maps. Proposer: SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Support
OpposeCommentsAnd why exactly does it need a proposal? Spectrogram (talk) 14:56, April 11, 2023 (EDT)
Trim and merge Smash spirits and stickersdo nothing 4-0-0-1-8 If the proposal passes, the following changes will be implemented:
Second option: keep stickers and spirits if they also have any relevance to Mario in their statistics, obtaining, battles, etc. This option was added per Koopa con Carne (talk)'s vote, and even though I believe this approach is inconsistent to what we did with (for example) Subspace Emissary stages, I see no reason not to have it as an extra option. I would also like to ask to comment before voting next time, as people very often forget to re-read and to re-vote on a proposal, even if their vote and reasoning are no longer relevant. Feel free to comment if you've got any issues with the proposal, I can always edit it. Proposer: Spectrogram (talk) Support
Only trim/merge spiritsOnly trim stickersSecond option (Edit)
No sticker left behind
CommentsThe proposal was updated on 09:11, April 13, 2023 (EDT) -Spectrogram (talk) I think all the Ultimate spirits have some relevance to Mario, seeing as how Mario characters can equip and benefit from any of them, thus making them coverage-worthy. To put it another way, readers may visit the spirit pages on this wiki with the intent of finding out, for example, which spirit works best with a given Mario, DK, Yoshi, or Wario series fighter. This is consistent with the currently-enforced principle that non-Mario fighters still deserve some coverage here by virtue of the fact that Mario fighters can interact with them. On the other hand, some stickers are restricted against Mario fighters, and it's reasonable to expect readers of Mario Wiki not to find these immediately relevant to their interests. Oddballs need to be accounted for too: despite the previous statement, the Crazee Dayzee and Mario Power Tennis Bowser stickers, which are exclusively usable by Pokemon Trainer and Ganondorf respectively, should still be covered for the simple fact that they depict Mario subjects. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:48, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
@SeanWheeler: "Anyone can equip trophies and stickers" Straight up false information and disingenuous argument. Trophies are aesthetic collectibles with virtually no gameplay purpose, and stickers can have restrictions on which characters they can be applied to. "Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the Pokémon article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page." That proposal states that Poke Ball Pokemon will remain on the wiki precisely because they can interact with Mario, they'll just be relocated to the Smash items page; it's the general Pokemon page that will be deleted since it has no relevance to Mario whatsoever--it's as if the wiki had an article on the Aegis blade because two Smash fighters are personifications of this object. "So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash." The Mario Wiki is not beholden to some mysterious NIWA-wide standard on how to cover Smash information. It is free to exercise its own discretion in that regard, and the situation definitely has more facets to consider than "these concepts weren't made for a Mario game". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 07:17, April 18, 2023 (EDT) I don't think "can interact with Mario characters" is a reasonable criterion for coverage. Surely, then, we should be listing all the characters' moves - up tilts, down smashes, back airs, and all - on the basis that Mario characters can be hit by them? Ahemtoday (talk) 14:07, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
Create an article for Punch-Out!! (NES)do not create 1-6 So why is this considered a cameo? Mario blatantly appears and plays a role in the gameplay: being Little Mac's referee. His appearance would easily be a cameo if he had just been in the background watching the fight. But because Mario does have a significant role in being the referee, a rather important thing in boxing, the wiki underplayed Mario's role in this game. Sure, he isn't playable or is a boss, but he isn't just in the background. I always wondered why the wiki considered this role unimportant when it's more than just a background appearance. I guess it's because he isn't playable. Still, not all guest appearances have to make a Mario character playable, as recently proven with Sonic Lost World. (And on a minor note, Punch-Out!! Wii is weirdly in the references section despite being a guest appearance). This proposal aims to reclassify the NES version of Punch-Out!! as a guest appearance. This option would mean that we get a general page detailing the game and detailing Mario's role as the referee. The page will also cover both game versions since they are the same in terms of Mario content. We won't create pages for Little Mac or all the fighters that appear in the game. I have a sandbox for the opening paragraph of this game. I haven't played much of the NES version, so I'm unsure how I would describe the gameplay. Proposer: Wikiboy10 (talk) Consider Punch-Out!! (NES) as a Guest AppearanceConsider Punch-Out!! (NES) as a Cameo
CommentsI feel the example for Sonic Lost World is flawed since there's an entire theming going around this to make this more of a guest appearance. I still think Mario is a cameo in this game despite having a tangible gameplay-related role here. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 01:18, April 14, 2023 (EDT) Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! is not the original version. The original version is the gold Famicom cartridge that was given to some contestants of Family Computer Golf: U.S. Course. This one lacked Mike Tyson and had Super Macho Man as the final opponent. There are three versions of the game with three different bosses. That being said, would this proposal also affect Tennis? Mario is a referee in that game as well.--Platform (talk) 05:54, April 14, 2023 (EDT) Merge every Super Smash Bros. stage into game-specific listsmerge 9-3
The following pages will be affected:
The following pages will not be affected:
Proposer: GuntherBB (talk) Support
Oppose
Comments@Teh Other, note that you still have three days to edit the proposal. Spectrogram (talk) 09:15, April 13, 2023 (EDT) @Wikiboy10 It's not only poorly written, even this needs specifics on what exactly will happen. The proposal reasoning implies it will impact absolutely everything which is not a very good way of going about this sort of thing. Nightwicked Bowser 15:07, April 13, 2023 (EDT) Funnily enough, I just removed my vote because now I realized the biggest flaw with this proposal: Would this include the Mario, Donkey Kong, Wario, Yoshi, and Wrecking Crew stages too? Please clarify that. Wikiboy10 (talk) 15:10, April 13, 2023 (EDT) Why should the stages be merged and not playable characters? I think the stages are like the second most visible aspect of Super Smash Bros. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 01:16, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
@Teh Other Could you clarify what exactly you intend to happen with the 3DS and Wii U stages? The proposal is still unclear about that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
Classify Just Dance series as a guest appearanceguest appearance 5-3 Proposer: Spectrogram (talk) Support
Oppose
Commentsi mean, if its got mario stuff in it then yeah its a guest appearance. my question is does this really need a proposal? - YoYo (Talk) 22:02, April 20, 2023 (EDT)
So would this classify the whole series as a guest appearance or just those two games with Mario content? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 08:19, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
@WikiBoy10, Punch Out literally only has Mario as a referee (and that's it). These two songs clearly have tons of effort put into, combining elements from two separate Mario games. Comparing this to Punch Out is just fractally wrong. Spectrogram (talk) 14:57, April 23, 2023 (EDT) There's already a precedent for lumping multiple "Guest Appearance" games with the Skylanders: SuperChargers page, which covers the title game, the "Racing" version for last-gen consoles and the character's appearance in Imaginators. Making a separate page for each Just Dance game that has a Mario song in it is an insane suggestion to me, they're very iterative games. --Glowsquid (talk) 13:57, April 27, 2023 (EDT) Remove articles about Sonic characterscanceled by proposer I propose that the Sonic character articles should be reduced to a list featuring a brief description of each character, like "List of fighters debuting in [insert Smash title here]", or mention them with the Proposer: PnnyCrygr (talk) SupportOppose
CommentsI think this proposal should be vetoed; i now understand Hewer's points. PnnyCrygr (talk)
Discourage drive-by templating part 2passed 21-0 If this passes, then these templates must be accompanied by either an active discussion or proposal. The discussion/proposal doesn't need to be on the talk page of the article where the template is used, but it does need to exist somewhere, and the template needs to link to the appropriate page. I'm hesitant to define what counts as an active discussion here, because I think it's fair to have some level of discretion there - personally, I would say that if there hasn't been any engagement whatsoever in the past 365 days, the discussion isn't active anymore (please be aware that this is not set in stone). This is to prevent having these templates left behind while attached to discussions that are years old - like proposals, if you suggest a change it's up to you (or the other supporters) to see that through and keep it active until a consensus is reached. Articles where the proposed changes are enforced by a proposal but not enacted yet are exempt, as a decision has already been made. However, the proposal field of these templates should be used to link to the relevant proposal. The following templates will be affected: Proposer: Waluigi Time (talk) Support
Oppose
Comments@Wikiboy10: The goal of this proposal is the same as the last one, getting rid of vague templates. A request for a rewrite or more images that doesn't actually specify what's wrong with the page is only a little more useless than a suggestion to merge a page with no reasoning - at least the suggested course of action is there, but the reasons why aren't, making it harder than necessary to come to a decision. This is meant to make maintenance easier for our userbase in the long run, and I don't see how requiring users to state their reasons for a suggested change is any more "controlling" than requiring users to specify why they're putting a rewrite template on a page. The actions of other wikis have no bearing on how we do things, and never should, period. Every community is different and things that work for their organization, maintenance, and policies may not work for another wiki and vice-versa. We can certainly look to other wikis to see what ideas might be worth adapting and what's failed in the past, but it shouldn't be the basis of our decisions. Even using Smash as an example, there's several much more solid arguments to be made for reducing or cutting that content. A proposal that rested solely on "we should cut non-Mario Smash content because Bulbapedia doesn't cover non-Pokemon Smash content", for example, would've flopped horribly. I find it concerning how often "other NIWA wikis don't do this" or "SmashWiki exists" has been brought up in the recent Smash proposals, because apparently this attitude is now spreading to other issues and has been given the appearance of legitimacy, when historically it's been one of the flimsiest arguments used here for good reason. The issue isn't just the reasoning being left in summaries, but that's a big enough problem already and it's been brought up by supporters why this is a bad idea. Also keep in mind that these templates sometimes stay up for years at a time, and especially on high-traffic pages, those summaries can be buried quick. Providing reasons for suggested changes to articles is simply not what page history is meant for, and drops the responsibility on someone else to start a discussion. However, many times users don't leave an edit summary at all. It didn't take long for me to find an example of this - Big Bungee Piranha. There's no discussion on the talk page, or on Bungee Bud's talk page either. The discuss button is a red link, in fact. Neither page's edit history has any reasoning for the suggestion. At the bare minimum, there's not even any edit summary that would suggest the template was added, making tracking down the original user who added it to contact them directly needlessly difficult. Maybe there's a discussion about this somewhere, but if there is, I'd have no idea where to look. What's the point of leaving this template up? In some cases, it may be fairly easy for someone else to fill in the blanks, others might be more difficult and rely on obscure material, but it really should be up to the person who suggests the change to follow through and explain why we should do it. Finally, deleting merge/split/rename templates just because you disagree with the suggestion is a very bad idea that will most likely lead to edit warring. It's the exact opposite of what should be done, discussion until a consensus is reached. Apologies for the long comment, but I felt the need to address these points. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:05, April 28, 2023 (EDT) "Plus, other wikis don't act like this. And if that argument sounds weak, it was used for merging various Smash articles." If you're referring to a couple misguided support votes in those proposals, maybe. But none of the proposals out of those that actually succeeded were built on that principle, so I suggest you not spread misinformation. As others including WT above have said time and again, there is no inherent, indisputable benefit in modelling this wiki after others. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:40, April 28, 2023 (EDT)
Create interwiki link templates to current and former NIWA wikis and other wikisdo nothing 1-4
Proposer: GuntherBB (talk) SupportOppose
CommentsThat's a lot of templates, and additional shorthands to remember, when the prefixes themselves work just fine. If you don't want to type things twice, just do
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