MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

From the Super Mario Wiki, the Mario encyclopedia
Jump to navigationJump to search
 
Line 1: Line 1:
{{MarioWiki:Proposals/Header}}
{{/Header}}
 
==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
''None at the moment.''
===Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages===
Recently, a (completely undiscussed) amendment was made to the [[Mariowiki:Naming#derived names|naming]] system making it so quote-unquote "derived names" - as in, standard conjectural names made by cut-n-pasting descriptors from similar entities - have priority over official names from other languages (particularly the games' language of origin, which for this franchise is usually Japanese). While allowing said "derived names" as conjecture makes sense, it comes with several pitfalls, and my main concern is it is turning into a slippery slope. Much of it is discussed on the talk page for the so-called "[[Talk:Hefty Goombrat|Hefty Goombrat]]," which is a sterling example of why this was not a good idea. I have also been recently seeing cases of people moving to subjects based on objects sharing some adjective with a random obscure object in the same game, as demonstrated [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Linking_Bull%27s-Eye_Bill&curid=429765&diff=4195153&oldid=4111331 here]. To be blunt, this was a short-sighted idea (and more than likely, simply a failed experiment) and needs cut back to a reasonable level before it gets out of hand. For the record, I am favor of letting it stay when the only indications in other languages or file names or what-have-you are generic terms rather than clear "names," for instance when the only confirmed name for [[Shoot]] was just "jugador de futbol," as well as rewording clunky generic descriptors like "[[surfboard vehicle|vehicle with surfboard]]."
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, these names are conjectural and shouldn't be unduly given more weight than their fellow conjectural names.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Might just be me but I'd rather not have a policy that specifically states "if you don't like this official name, just completely ignore it and make up something wacky instead" because that's ''not what this site is even remotely about''
#{{User|Axis}} Per all.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal. While some of these derived names are fine and it's sensible to have this as an option, it shouldn't take priority over an official name when one exists.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} ...Okay, yeah, KCC makes a good point we didn't think of, so, surprise! We're changing our vote! Conjectural names have their place, but we really shouldn't prioritize them over ''actual names'' if they exist.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'm pretty sure this all started [[Talk:Mame-san#Name source|here]], and...yeah, in practice, conjectural exceptions bloat the elegant naming policy. Plus, this is practically begging to have more "Fire Nipper Plant"-esque situations.
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per the arguments raised above.
#{{User|Metalex123}} Per all.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Official names are official, whether it's English, Japanese, Spanish, and so forth.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Actually, my position didn't make much sense. If some enemies are OK to have their Japanese name, then why not all enemies without a proper English name? And KCC brought up a good point about redirects. I wouldn't be opposed to using derived names as just redirects, since redirects show up in the search bar alongside actual articles, basically removing the "searchability" issue.
#{{User|Mushzoom}} Per all.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Doc in the comments. If there's an official name, there's an official name, and we shouldn't just ignore it.
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} While I agree that some discussions may need to be made on what counts as derived conjecture and what doesn't, a flat-out repeal is '''not''' the way to go about this. Plus, some of these derived conjecture names are completely straightforward (such as "[[Fire Spike]]" or "[[Wonder Hoppycat]]"), as in we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} The only problem with this policy is that it's being applied in cases and/or ways that it shouldn't be (I personally think Hefty Goombrat was a step too far). If it's kept to reasonable use like the examples Archivist Toadette gave, it's fine. No need to repeal the entire thing.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per opposition.
#{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per Archivist Toadette, really. To me, it does seem greater caution and discussion on these derived names is warranted, but a case-by-case approach seems more useful here than a flat-out repeal. I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here, tossing away something that's generally beneficial to readers in the process of correcting a few cases where this has been misapplied.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall (collectively)
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Mario}} Not a good idea.
<s>#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We really ought to be handling poor names born from this policy on a case-by-case basis, rather than nixing the policy altogether and potentially causing more harm than good.</s>
<br><s>#{{User|DrippingYellow}} I seriously fail to see how this is a problem. If you have a Japanese noun that has had a direct, consistent translation across ''multiple'' pieces of English ''Mario'' media (i.e. ''gabon'' to Spike, ''kakibo'' to Goombrat, ''deka'' to "Big" enemies, admittedly ''kodeka'' for "Hefty" enemies is pushing it since we really only have [[Hefty Goomba]]s as an official translation), then the way I see it this replacement of terms is no different than how we've been treating internal names. We already have a rule on not "partially translating" names, so I'd maybe expand on that to prohibit creating translations for words that don't have a consistent translation across games, but I wouldn't get rid of the derived name rule altogether. (i.e. [[Sensuikan Heihō]] does not become "Submarine Shy Guy" or even "Sensuikan Shy Guy")</s>
 
====Comments====
@Opposition I did say in the last sentence that this isn't removing it completely, just changing its position in the "acceptable naming" hierarchy. The reason I said "repeal" is an incarnation of it existed before for generic-borne titles and I am trying to go back to that as - unlike the current iteration - it isn't just ''begging'' to be misused.  [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
 
I guess the best way to put it is this: if an official name ''that is a name'' exists, period, there is no excuse whatsoever for there to be a "conjecture" template of any sort. That's not hypothesizing, that's ignoring, and to be frank is a grotesque perversion of the policies this site has had for decades that have not caused any harm whatsoever - meanwhile, ''these'' have plenty of potential for misleading people. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
:Then what about the examples I brought up? {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 07:30, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
::What about them? They have official names, but the wiki opts to give them ''explicitly'' conjectural ones because apparently a couple of sysops thought so. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:33, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
 
I still find the idea that these names are "conjectural" to be kind of weird, if that's the big hang-up here. If we can [[MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese|already take some liberties with Japanese titles]] I don't see why we can't just look at something and say "oh, this is literally Goomba's Japanese name, let's just call it Goomba", especially when the name is partially English already. That's just doing some simple translation, not really making conjectural names? I'm speaking as someone with no background in translation, mind you, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
:Conjecture occurs when you're presuming something to be the case in the absence of hard facts. Archive Toadette states in his vote that "we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject". "'''Assume'''". That's the thrust of this policy: assumption. Which is pretty much synonymous with conjecture, and some editors are taking issue with prioritizing that over official names. Regarding the liberties on Japanese names, there's nothing conjectural about adapting something like [[Sniper|Sunaipā]] to "Sniper", because it's literally the word's Japanese transliteration--the romanization reflects how the word sounds when converted to Japanese writing. Note how that policy states that instances of "Kuppa" should be adapted to "[[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]", and not "Bowser", even though that's his Japanese name. "Kuribo" wouldn't be adapted to "Goomba" in article titles because that's not a transliteration, that a compound of actual Japanese morphemes. The basis of the Japanese naming policy isn't the same as that of the conjectural naming policy. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:43, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
 
@Hooded Pitohui: Could you be more specific on what is or isn't acceptable? Because I'm kind of struggling to picture any time these conjectural names should have priority over an actual official name, or what would make that case different to others (note that they'd still take priority over filenames per the proposal). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:01, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
:I think it may be helpful to start with a disclaimer and an acknowledgement of where I'm coming from in casting a vote. I'm a very infrequent, casual editor on the wiki side of things, so when I do wade into these proposals on the intricacies of the wiki's policies on naming or classification or scope of coverage, I don't often have a large repository of examples to draw upon, and rarely am I able (or attempting to) make any kind of case or argument. Generally, I'm entering these discussions from the perspective of a reader/user of the wiki first, and casual contributor second, and generally my votes are going to be informed by that perspective, so I apologize if this seems a bit broad and dealing in hypotheticals. For me, I'd think anything that's a straight localization of a recurring, official enemy/item/what have you is acceptable, and more adjectival/descriptive parts of a name or a name of something that hasn't really had a localization established is not. To use the cited Hefty Goombrat example, "Hefty" probably shouldn't have been conjecturally localized, but a Goombrat is pretty clearly a Goombrat, so conjecturally localizing that part seems fine to me. If, I don't know, Nintendo introduces a Lakitu that throws fireballs down that become Firesnakes, and it's called "[something] Jugem" officially in Japanese material, again, I think we leave the descriptive part as-is because there's no clear precedent, but we know a "Jugem/Jugemu" is consistently localized as Lakitu, so we might as well localize that because an average reader will recognize "Lakitu" quickly. Meanwhile, if we just got, say, a generic cloud spitting fireballs with the same behavior, I'd say we'd be wise not to do a conjectural localization because there's not clear precedent for what that'd get localized as. Of course, even always following really clear, solid precedent, we might get it wrong occasionally, especially if Nintendo decides to rename a recurring enemy at some point, but it's a wiki, information is constantly getting updated, renamed, and reevaluated anyway. Hope that helps explain my reasoning a bit better! [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 13:26, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
::Slippiest of slippery slopes. Just use redirects if you expect casual readers to look up for a thing more intuitively than how it's been officially presented. There's no need to compromise encyclopedic integrity to cater to what readers expect to see. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:06, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
 
For the record, this isn't a talk page proposal, so I think the deadline for this proposal should be May 6. Unless there was a statement of "you can make the proposals two weeks long if you want" that I missed in the rules, which is entirely possible. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 19:21, May 1, 2024 (EDT)
:Writing Guideline proposals also last two weeks, like TPPs. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::Oh, I didn't notice that in the rules. I guess that makes sense. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 11:30, May 2, 2024 (EDT)


==New features==
==New features==
Line 7: Line 60:


==Removals==
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''
===Trim Mario Kart course galleries of excess ''Tour'' stuff===
==Changes==
Take a look at the gallery section of any Mario Kart race course that has been featured in [[Mario Kart Tour]], and you will find the majority of the gallery is filled with a ton of mostly-identical images of the course "icons" with various playable characters superimposed on them. Why? Why is this necessary, what positive purpose does this provide to the reader? Take [[Wii Mushroom Gorge]] for example. The gallery contains '''''seventeen''''' duplicates of the same three screenshots of the course, each with a different stock artwork of a character on top of it. [[SNES Mario Circuit 1]] has '''''thirty''''' of them. [[Tour New York Minute]] has '''''forty-five''''', which probably contributed to the page lagging as it loaded for me. This is really excessive and they don't need to be there. Nothing is gained by the reader from seeing the same screenshot with a different stock artwork over them. I propose we remove these and only leave ONE version of each icon. (IE for Mushroom Gorge, only <s>three</s> four icons would remain)
===Create ''Mario Kart'' course redirects with game prefixes for recurring track names===
 
In case the title wasn't clear, I'm referring to making redirects like {{fake link|GBA Rainbow Road}}, {{fake link|DS Mario Circuit}}, and {{fake link|Wii Bowser's Castle}}. My argument for doing this is simple: '''I think it would be both useful and in line with our redirect policy.'''
'''Proposer''': {{User|Shadow2}}<br>
'''Deadline''': ''May 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT''
 
====Support====
#{{User|Shadow2}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Unpopular, but I'm backing this. I really don't see what these images accomplish that, say, a textual list of characters that have been pictured on the course icon couldn't. And when I say that out loud, it sounds like unusefully nitpicky information to include, so I'm ''really'' not sure why we're dedicating swathes of the gallery to it. To be honest, if we can get the course icons with no character on them whatsoever, I'd rather put those on the pages than just picking one of the character course icons.
<s>#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal--these icons are already on the tour articles where they're relevant, so having all of these variations on the courses' galleries is a bit overkill. It'd be one thing if they were in a gallery subpage, but just on the articles itself...?</s>
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Hewer}} What? It's relevant information that has every reason to be there, it not being that interesting to most is a very bad reason to single it out and remove it at the expense of the wiki's comprehensiveness, and I have no idea what the problem is with galleries having all the relevant images. Removing stuff just because you aren't interested in it feels short-sighted and way too slippery a slope.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} They're relevant to their pages. I don't think it's the fan encyclopedia that should take the blame for their excessiveness.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all. If there's too many images in the gallery, that's what making a gallery subpage is for.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} I don't see any reason why the images shouldn't stay.
#{{User|Arend}} A gallery is the best place for preserving images like these. That Nintendo made an excessive amount of course icon variants that each feature a different (compatible) character, is not our fault.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Axis}} Per Hewer
#{{User|ExoRosalina}} Per all, but that was a very bad idea for that.


For my first point: Series convention has people referring to these tracks this way even outside of official contexts, and people aren't going to take the time to think about whether a certain course came back before typing it into the search box. Heck, even I, whose editing hangout spots include not [[Classic course#Table of classic race courses|one]] but ''[[Mario Kart (series)#List of console and mobile game courses|two]]'' lists of which courses appear in which games, find myself sooner typing "DS Bowser's Castle" into the search bar than "Bowser Castle (Mario Kart DS)", if only because one is shorter.
====Comments====
Changing our vote to an abstain, and figure we should ask--would it be too much to ask for a move to make gallery subpages/split these off to those over a full removal from the galleries? We don't think these should be anywhere ''near'' the main article, but we do think that a gallery subpage is a perfect fit. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:58, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:What's wrong with them being on the main page, exactly? I feel like separate gallery pages for them would probably be a bit too small to be tenable, and I'm unsure what harm they're doing being treated like all the other images. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:44, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
::Mainly performance, as the original proposal briefly mentioned--[[Tour New York Minute]]'s excessive number of these icons caused our Firefox to genuinely lag upon loading that article. When it gets to the point where an article starts to have a noticeable pause in loading in because of the size of the gallery, we think it's only fair to at least ''consider'' moving the bulk of the images to a gallery subpage.  {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:59, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:::Fair enough, but it ought to still be on a case-by-case basis. New York Minute could be argued to have a problem, but that's probably more because of how many variants it's got (between 1, 2, 3, 4, and the R, T, and R/T versions of each, plus B), and other courses seem to have more reasonable numbers, like [[GBA Peach Circuit]]'s eight. So I don't think they all need to get their galleries split necessarily (not sure what the cutoff point would be though). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 20:21, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yeah, some articles definitely don't have it as bad when it comes to these icons causing loading problems. Still, we should probably be less afraid to split off track galleries if they get quite that large in the future--though, that statement is bordering on being unrelated to this proposal entirely, so... Make of that what you will, we suppose? ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:02, May 11, 2024 (EDT)


I do not believe these would be in violation of [[MarioWiki:Redirects|our redirect policy]], as these names are neither silly (being an extension of series convention) nor ambiguous (there's only one course "Wii Mario Circuit" could be referring to). These are really the only criteria they need to meet, as the policy is otherwise very encouraging of redirects.
"(IE for Mushroom Gorge, only '''three''' icons would remain)"<br>Why only ''three''? Doesn't Mushroom Gorge have ''four'' versions (normal, R, T, and R/T), like (almost) ''every other course in Mario Kart Tour''? And I wouldn't know which one you want to leave out: we've got to keep at least one version of the normal variant, R versions and T versions are somewhat on the same level, and not only is R/T the most different out of all of them, but ''there's only one icon for that one too''. {{User:Arend/sig}} 18:01, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:Oh, I may have made a mistake there. But yes, the point would be for one icon for each course. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 21:30, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:As {{User|Arend}} said, I am inclined to agree with the proposal if it is changed so that we keep one icon for each version of a course. Additionally, I'd like some clarification on where the cut images would go, as I don't want them to just be lost in the depths of the Wiki. {{User:LadySophie17/sig}} 20:49, May 11, 2024 (EDT)


Now, my initial proposal was to do this for all unprefixed courses with recurring names, not counting MK8 or spinoffs since we don't know for sure what their prefixes would be. This results in this list:
@Hewer @Koopa con Carne , what exactly is the "relevant information" being presented to the reader? "This image has Mario on it, this one is the exact same but it has Luigi on it." Okay? What's the point? To me, this is on a similar level to uploading every individual sprite in Mario's walk cycle. They're different, they're from the game, but they're not important enough on their own to convey any useful information to the reader, compared to actual screenshots which DO present useful information. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 21:30, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:That's still information, and as I said in my vote, "I don't like this information and find it boring so let's just remove it" is an extremely slippery slope and goes against the point of the site as being a comprehensive encyclopedia about the franchise. Who are we to decide what's "useful information to the reader"? Someone might well be curious to know what characters were used for Yoshi Circuit's icons, I don't think it's ''that'' unreasonable. For the Mario walking sprite thing, [[Gallery:Mario sprites and models|we've got GIFs to accomplish that]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 04:32, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
:The Mushroom Gorge icons are relevant to the Mushroom Gorge article because they are Mushroom Gorge icons. 🧐 {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 05:37, May 12, 2024 (EDT)


*{{fake link|GBA Bowser's Castle 4}}
==Changes==
*{{fake link|GCN Bowser's Castle}}
===Non-standardize franchise sub-headings in History sections===
*{{fake link|GCN Rainbow Road}}
This proposal aims to non-standardize -- not outright forbid or penalize -- the use of "franchise" subheadings under History. In other words, should this pass, if someone gets rid of franchise sub-headings in favor of series or standalone game sub-headings, someone is not allowed to revert it and must leave it as-is. Otherwise, users are allowed to add the sections at their discretion. Think of it like the Cite template, which is standardized but not required.
*{{fake link|DS Mario Circuit}}
*{{fake link|DS Bowser's Castle}}
*{{fake link|DS Rainbow Road}}
*{{fake link|Wii Luigi Circuit}}
*{{fake link|Wii Mario Circuit}}
*{{fake link|Wii Bowser's Castle}}


It seems a bit excessive to me, but I realized while writing this that I may want to include an option to do this for ''every'' course (aside from MK8 and spinoffs), so I'm also including that as an option.
I never understood the need for the franchise subheadings (with three equals signs), since it just adds an unnecessary extra heading in the page text. It's like if we had a "Super Mario franchise" section and began listing various subsections under it. The points I'm making below may digress from the proposal, but could provide insight as to why I think it muddies the waters too much by giving individual franchise sections.


'''''DOUBLE EDIT: I've changed the second option to be what the edited-in third option was, since I didn't realize I was leaving Tour out when I first made it. I am sorry if this causes confusion.'''''
I feel that it shouldn't be this wiki's job to decide which game goes into what franchise. To give some examples, Nintendo has not taken the effort to, let's say, classify ''Yoshi's Safari'' as a ''Yoshi'' game on par with the ''Yoshi's Island'' series, and I haven't seen ''Wario's Woods'' being listed among the likes of ''Wario Land'' series, not to mention Wario is the main antagonist of ''Wario's Woods'', despite his name in the title (though could similarly be said about ''DK'' arcade game). And ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' could either be a ''Super Mario'' game, since it stars Mario, or a ''Donkey Kong'' game, but I'm more inclined toward the former, since all the sequels (minus the Switch remake) do not retain any elements from the Game Boy version of ''Donkey Kong'', and Donkey Kong is the consistent antagonist.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
So with the examples listed, see how it kind of muddies the waters? And if future proposals or discoveries determine the games to not be part of the franchises, or the franchises themselves outright nil, then that would be numerous pages to clean up on, should the franchise sub-sections be applied to the wiki universally. Even if it may appear disjointed on some articles, the point is still that these are still ''Super Mario'' characters starring in their own games, not different than ''Captain Toad'', ''Princess Peach'', and ''Luigi's Mansion'', all of which are explicitly ''Super Mario'' games but starring different characters.
'''Deadline''': January 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT


====Create the redirects listed above====
In the ''Smash Bros.'' series, I am aware that Wario, Yoshi, and Donkey Kong have distinct symbols, but that could reflect their protagonist status, not their own series.  
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Second choice.


====Create these redirects for every course (aside from MK8, Arcade GP, and Home Circuit)====
'''Edit:''' Another problem from using franchise sub-sections is that would mean game sub-sections could have five equal signs if branching off of a series subheading of a franchise sub-heading. An example of how that would look: <code> ===''Yoshi'' franchise=== ====''Yoshi's Island'' series==== =====''Yoshi's Island DS''===== </code>  
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} My listed reasons can apply, albeit more mildly, to all these courses; and as the redirect policy says, redirects don't cost anything.
 
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, I'm surprised this wasn't already the case (also it's kind of already done with the non-city Tour courses [[Tour Ninja Hideaway|here]], [[Tour Merry Mountain|here]], and [[Tour Sky-High Sundae|here]], <s>I would suggest extending this to Tour courses as well but since it's inevitable that they'll all be in the Booster Course Pass I guess that would just end up pointless in the long run</s>).
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
#{{User|Tails777}} While the idea of these technically not being official names still come to mind, I'm no doubt supportive of this, mainly cause I'm definitely one of those people who refers to pretty much every track with their system prefix beforehand, official or not. On another note, this could also just make it easier when these tracks inevitably do return, as the article contents can just be moved over to these redirects.
'''Deadline''': May 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT
#{{User|LadySophie17}} Per Tails777
#{{User|RealStuffMister}} per proposal <s>however as i mentioned in my comment, this would be my secondary option if another choice including Tour courses is added.</s>
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per all.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} It makes sense, those redirects will eventually become the actual page names anyway (except maybe for the case of ''Mario Kart Tour'' whose non-city courses aren't consistently given the ''Tour'' prefix)
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|BMfan08}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} Surprised it wasn't done before. Per all.


====Don't create redirects====
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I cannot speak for anyone else, but I find it genuinely difficult to find topics when they are not grouped into franchise headers like this, especially for long articles, and it can be frustrating. I can understand not putting ''Wario Land'' and ''WarioWare'' titles together under a "Wario (franchise)" heading, but ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' is a ''Yoshi's Island'' game in everything but literal name, and it is unintuitive to not group it with those titles for recurring subjects. Same with ''Donkey Kong Jungle Beat'' and the other ''Donkey Kong'' platforms. ''Smash Bros.'' did not invent the idea of grouping these franchises together. Nothing is lost when these subfranchise headings are maintained - only gains for readers.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per Nintendo101. It's unclear what benefits this would have.
#{{User|Arend}} Well, I guess I now know the truth about that oddity of [[Special:Diff/4174787|this edit on the Icicle page]] ([[Icicle|which is still in use btw]]). In essence, though, the "unnecessary" extra heading is there for organizing, so it ''has'' a purpose, and is ''not'' entirely unnecessary. If what you're proposing is exactly what you've done on the Icicle page (which is to say, not only removing the Yoshi franchise header, but also relocating the Yoshi's Crafted World section towards the bottom of the History section), it would only look disorganized (especially since, as Nintendo101 said about Woolly World, Crafted World is already super similar in gameplay to the Yoshi's Island games... as is Yoshi's Story, too, btw). In fact, such a drastic change would ''only'' make sense if we treated ''every game'' like this and have ''everything'' listed in release order regardless of other series like Mario Kart or Smash Bros.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}}Perall!
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all. This honestly feels even more cumbersome and strange than how we already do things--besides, Ctrl+F (or "Find" on mobile) generally helps if you're lost as-is.
#{{User |Big Super Mario Fan}}I'm against it. There is a Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi Franchise.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all


====Comments====
====Comments====
I would say "Create redirects for all unprefixed courses from MK7 or before", however I believe that Mario Kart Tour courses should be included in this list, so the page {{fake link|Tour Singapore Speedway}} would redirect to [[Singapore Speedway]]'s article. For now, i will vote the option i mentioned earlier, but if you create an extra option to include Tour courses, then i'd vote that one {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 19:28, January 21, 2023 (EST)
@Nintendo101: Except the ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' is not a ''Yoshi's Island'' game, since those have Baby Mario in it, but reuses concepts from said series. And the "Donkey Kong platforms" already have two series of their own: Donkey Kong Country series and Donkey Kong Land series, and then there's the unassociated games like Donkey Kong 64 (which i used to think was a DKC game) and DK Jungle Beat [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:19, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:Like I said in my vote, the issue there is that they'll all inevitably come to the Booster Course Pass and be moved to those names anyway, so it would probably just end up being unnecessary extra work. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 19:33, January 21, 2023 (EST)
:I would argue that ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' is a ''Yoshi's Island'' game because whether or not Baby Mario is present is completely outweighed by the games' mechanical similarities, level designs, enemies, characters, aesthetics, "game feel", and development staff. What they actually named the game doesn't matter. But that is admittedly my subjective interpretation.
::that just means some courses will have prefix redirects, while some won't for up to 11 months, this, to me, is an "all or none" situation, if you're gonna do some, you might as well do them all. besides, creating a redirect, then transferring contents of another article to it isnt that much work, there's been [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Tour_Sydney_Sprint&type=revision&diff=3730051&oldid=3726004 more intense stuff] done to their articles before. {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 19:41, January 21, 2023 (EST)
:::Admins can move pages over redirects, so one can just ask an admin to rename the pages when necessary. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:12, January 26, 2023 (EST)
Ahemtoday, you can still change the second option to include tour courses, the rules state you can append proposals within the first three days of it being written. Im sure if the people voting for it care enough about the other games having the redirects, they'd agree to Tour courses too {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 12:02, January 22, 2023 (EST)


I'd rather have the prefixes removed from the course names that are unique (and keep them for those that have different iterations such as (character) Circuit or Rainbow Road courses, obviously) then make prefix redirects. I honestly dislike how ''Tour'' courses that got added to BCP have the prefix, but those that has yet to be added did not. — [[User:Stache|Stache]] ([[User talk:Stache|talk]]) 23:00, January 23, 2023 (EST)
:What is not subjective is that ''Woolly World'' (in addition to ''Yoshi's Story'', ''Crafted World'') has significantly more in common with the traditionally-recognized ''Yoshi's Island'' games than they do to the majority of other titles and make more intuitive sense grouped together. Additionally, we have a dedicated [[Yoshi (franchise)|''Yoshi'' franchise]] article and framing on the wiki (i.e. articles on the ''Yoshi'' platformers are generally structured similarly and have comparable heading colors). It does not make sense why that classification is okay in one context, but not for the spaces that really matter - articles on recurring subjects that would legitimately benefit from subdivisions. I maintain the same position for ''Donkey Kong'' and ''Wario'' titles, as I would for ''Mario Party'' and ''Mario Kart''. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 19:32, May 7, 2024 (EDT)


=== Decide what to do with ''StreetPass Mii Plaza'' ===
::Then there's the ''Yoshi'', ''Yoshi's Cookie'', and ''Tetris Attack'' puzzle games, supposedly with the ''Yoshi'' branding, though I think the former two are ''Super Mario'' games with Yoshi as a mascot. Throwing all of that under a "Yoshi franchise" heading would be an example of muddying the waters, with both platforming and puzzle games mixed together. The "comparable" heading colors could basically apply to the ''Super Mario'' franchise, which is associated with the color red, like Mario's shirt and hat.
Merge request has been sitting on this page for a while, so let's resolve it once and for all. ''[[StreetPass Mii Plaza]]'' features plenty of ''Mario''-related content, so it should be considered a guest appearance. However, it covers too much information unrelated to ''Mario'', so I additionally propose to trim the features section, Find Mii, and DLC to only cover ''Mario'' content.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br>
::''Yoshi's Story'', ''Yoshi's Woolly World'', and ''Yoshi's Crafted World'' not being part of an explicitly defined ''Yoshi'' platforming series isn't a fault on our part, but is rather a reflection on Nintendo. Have Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach Showtime! been confirmed to be part of the same series, or are they both "Super Mario" games starring Peach? If such two section are disjointed in an article, like Princess Peach's, because they're not in an officially defined series, that's because it's Nintendo's responsibility to define it, not ours. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:48, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
'''Deadline''': January 28, 2023, 23:59 GMT
:::I appreciate the thoroughness of your response, but it did not address what I was trying to get at. Why can Super Mario Wiki have a [[Yoshi (franchise)|''Yoshi'' franchise]] article, template, and organization structure in their articles and then passively assert no such thing exists in the actual History sections for subjects? What you describe as "muddying the waters" I perceive as helpful clarity and a consistent presentation of information maintained across the wiki. That's inherently helpful for readers. It also really has not been explained to me what is improved for readers in removing subfranchise headings. I know for me personally it would make it more difficult to passively read articles or locate information, and I suspect I am not alone in that feeling. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:31, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
::::Because the same question could apply to why does [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Super Mario'' franchise]] not have its own subsection and on what grounds. The History section basically passively asserts the Super Mario franchise isn't there for the same reason. And if we're to cover like every Chain Chomp appearance in ''Zelda'', would that get its own franchise section and subheadings? The history section in that instance would be presenting it on the same tier as ''Yoshi'', ''Wario'', and ''Donkey Kong''. Convenience isn't always an accurate reflection of the official way of sorting. One could have ''Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3'' come after ''Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins'' in the History section, since the former literally takes place after the latter's events, or ''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island'' after ''Super Mario World'' (or considering "Super Mario Bros. 5" was a dropped subtitle during development), but that would be negating their respective Wario Land and Yoshi's Island series. I wanted to point out that your opinion on ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' being a ''Yoshi's Island'' title could be a stretch based on personal viewpoint, but not necessarily official confirmation. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 20:43, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
:::::While it is one that I agree with and I believe it can be substantively demonstrated, I do not group ''Woolly World'' with ''Yoshi's Island'' because of a subjective interpretation. I apologize if that was the impression. It is because we currently consider them part of the [[Yoshi (franchise)|''Yoshi'' franchise]] on the wiki. Grouping them together under the history section is just matching what is already recognized elsewhere, and I believe it is helpful. I feel like to not group them together in the History section calls for a much wider discussion on how we should classify games on the wiki at large, and if we should be recognizing a ''Yoshi'' franchise (also a ''Wario'', ''Donkey Kong'', etc.) at all. But that is a departure from how things are currently recognized by the userbase.
:::::Are the ''Donkey Kong'', ''Yoshi'', and ''Wario'' franchises themselves not within the ''Super Mario'' franchise? I was under the impression that that was the overarching umbrella. ''Zelda'' would inherently be outside of that. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:16, May 7, 2024 (EDT)


==== Trim and classify as a guest appearance ====
::::::The three you mentioned are part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise, that's true. And ''Tetris Attack'', a puzzle game, is as much of a ''Yoshi'' game as ''Super Mario World 2''. Putting every game installment under a single "franchise" heading is the history sections conflating franchises with series, which i deem a problem. Why put ''Yoshi'' puzzle game, the [[Super Scope]] game ''Yoshi's Safari'', ''Yoshi's Island'', and miscellaneous platforming games under a single heading that makes them all seem strung together somehow? Yoshi's Woolly World is platforming, so it's closer by that merit but Yoshi (the puzzle game) is far from any sort of association to ''Yoshi's Island'', which it predates, and is an entirely different genre. It would be inconsistent if the ''Super Mario'' franchise's series gets sub-sections but not like Yoshi's Island or Wario Land, like it's being decided subjectively of how to find information per game series. And a Donkey Kong franchise's 4-equal sign headings could theoretically look like: <code>====Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest====</code>, <code>====Donkey Kong Land 2====</code>, <code>====Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!====</code>, since that's the chronological release order of Donkey Kong platforming games from two separate series. Or what about Wario's: <code>WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!</code>, <code>Wario World</code>, <code>WarioWare: Twisted!</code> This means either way, there will be cases where things will look disjointed for varying reasons. The way History sections are sorted are not a reflection of the wiki scope. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 21:52, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
# {{User|Spectrogram}} I'll go work on my ''Smash'' proposals
# {{User|LadySophie17}} Fine by me
#{{User|Killer Moth}} This makes perfect sense to do. Per proposal.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal.


==== Classify as a guest appearance (no trimming) ====
==== Merge and redirect ====
==== Comments ====


===Merge certain non-Mario fighters from the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series into game-specific lists and trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters===
The biggest issue with these franchise subheadings is that it can lead to creating a level 5 subheader in some instances and we really need to avoid this because they're increasingly more indistinguishable from text. The current method of doing it avoids this because the entities don't seem to appear in many games, so it doesn't make much sense to bar the use of it, but IMO if using franchise subheadings results in too many subheaders, avoid it. {{User:Mario/sig}} 19:25, May 8, 2024 (EDT)
Here's a simple premise: the ''Super Mario'' Wiki is not the ''Smash'' Wiki. The wiki has no business giving undue focus to every single element that has been part of the Smash Bros. series. In spite of the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Merge_unrelated_to_Mario_objects_and_items_in_the_Smash_Bros._series|efforts]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/59#Merging_non-Mario_Smash_Bros._series_bosses_and_the_remaining_enemies._Round_3!|to curtail]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Delete_the_bonuses_pages_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series|this practice]], the elephant in the room is still cosily seated.
:Yeah, this is one of the things I brought up as to why I find the franchise subheadings a problem, because it could result in the creation of the level-5 subheadings, like in an example that I listed above. Another case I'd find the franchise subheadings redundant is if there's only two releases or three releases, none from the same series, and especially if doing without the franchise subheading already shows them in chronological order. For example, [[Cog (obstacle)]] has ''[[Donkey Kong Jungle Beat]]'' and ''[[Donkey Kong Country Returns]]'' listed under "''Donkey Kong'' franchise, despite the fact that without that extra franchise subheading, they'd already be displayed together in chronological order in the history section. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 19:53, May 8, 2024 (EDT)
::"Gently encouraging users to avoid/minimize the use of level 5 subheaders because it is difficult to discriminate from normal text", is a world of difference from "imposing an editorial restriction on an organizational arrangement that others feel makes articles easier to read". - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:47, May 8, 2024 (EDT)
::Except gears also appear in ''[[Mario Kart DS]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'' thanks to [[DS Tick-Tock Clock]], the former being inbetween ''Jungle Beat'' and ''Country Returns'' (I've already added the info on the cog page). Additionally, a gear plays a prominent role in the ''[[WarioWare: Twisted!]]'' and ''[[WarioWare Gold]]'' microgame [[Scrambled Egg]] (though it does not serve as a platform there, so I was hesitant about adding that to the page). {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:42, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
:::Come to think of it though, ''[[WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!]]'' already features gears in the microgame [[Gear Head Fred]], so if we were to include WarioWare microgames on the cog article, that section would have to come before ''Jungle Beat'' anyway. {{User:Arend/sig}} 07:56, May 9, 2024 (EDT)


I'll first reiterate [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/45557/post-2345729 my feelings] on non-Mario concepts featured in this series: in my view, Mario Wiki's mission is indeed to provide information on anything the Mario cast interacts with, and the various Super Smash Bros. concepts, therefore, deserve by all means the privilege to be covered in some way, shape, or form. The problem is that these concepts are currently presented in excessive detail, much of which is specific to these concepts and perhaps as far-removed from Mario as one can get. I believe the two courses of action proposed here go hand in hand towards offering a much more streamlined coverage for the subjects that lack enough notability within the bona fide ''Mario'' franchise.
On the level 5 subheader thing: ...Can't we just change how those look via CSS shenanigans and the like? While there's definitely more eloquent ways to do it, simply giving them <font color="#444">'''a slightly gray color to distinguish it from a level 4 subheader'''</font> could probably resolve at least a couple of issues with them. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 16:17, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
:I thought the argument was that the level 5 subheader wasn't that it'd look indistinguishable to the level 4 subheader, but to the article's regular text. Not that I disagree with the CSS thing though, we can make changes to it to make the level 5 subheader a tiny bit bigger... same goes for level 6 subheaders btw (yes, level 6 subheaders are a thing, and so are level 1 subheaders, [[user:Arend/sandbox|see this sandbox]]). Not sure if it's ''entirely'' necessary to drastically change them, since level 5 subheaders are not only already a bit bigger, but also are displayed '''bold'''. It's level 6 subheaders that are displayed in the same size as the regular text, albeit in bold as well, though level 6 subheaders are rarely used, if at all. But, we could maybe change the headers' fonts to distinguish them if that's preferable over size or color changes, as the Timeless mobile skin displays all of these headers in Times New Roman. {{User:Arend/sig}} 16:49, May 9, 2024 (EDT)


Following the standard of the [[List of Super Smash Bros. series items]] and [[List of Super Smash Bros. series bosses]], my initial plan was to propose merging fighters who have had no significant presence within the ''Mario'' franchise into one list housing all their current ''Smash''-related information, in addition to, perhaps, any other relevant information from other ''Mario''-related media where they had cameos and mentions. Realising that the resulting page would be excessively long and more than likely violate the [[MarioWiki:Article size|article size policy]] tenfold, I came up with a compromise that aims to achieve a similar effect:
===Allow separation of the Super Mario Bros. series and Super Mario series in articles===
#'''Trim away detailed, textual information on special moves for all non-Mario fighters.''' Special moves are intrinsic to a character, employing their own abilities and/or weapons. Giving each move a separate heading within a fighter's article just isn't proportional to the extent they manifest a relationship with Mario elements; they can be neatly summarised in prose, as fighter articles [[Samus_Aran#Super_Smash_Bros.|already do]]. In removing this information, a sizable amount of space will be saved, allowing for more compact fighter lists. Images relevant to the special moves will be kept and repurposed as part of the next course of action:
This proposal aims to allow separating the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series of side-scrolling platformers ([[:File:SMR Notifications 2023-12-20 excerpt.jpg|it's official]]) from the ''Super Mario'' 3D series in history sections. This is based on how Nintendo sometimes treats the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series separately from the ''Super Mario'' 3D games, like from the screenshot (in-game from ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' itself), ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' is said to be the first ''Super Mario Bros.'' game in 11 years (referring to 2012, when ''[[New Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' and ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' were released).
#'''Make a list of fighters for every ''Super Smash Bros.'' game (where ''for 3DS'' and ''for Wii U'' fighters share the same page) containing the relevant sections of each of the non-Mario, non-franchise-significance fighter, complete with a gallery of relevant images for each section.''' For instance, this means that we take the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' sections of [[Ness]], [[Simon Belmont]], and other fighters who fulfill the aforementioned criteria and throw them in a "List of Super Smash Bros. Ultimate fighters" list, with each section having a gallery that comprises any relevant image that would go unused as a result of the redistribution of information. A visual example of how this would work can be seen at the end of the proposal.


A few notes:
Currently, this proposal would only allow for the series to be separated in sections, not necessarily standardized, as that would depend on how the article is laid out.
*if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''. They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]].
*in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section.
*current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages.
*Subspace Emissary info and classic mode routes from ''Ultimate'' will be among the ported information, even for non-Mario fighters. Reason being, these often involve Mario characters as opponents or otherwise.


With all that said, affected pages include:
The complicated part of 2012 being the cutoff before ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' is that would mean ''[[Super Mario Maker]]'', its sequel, and ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' would all be disqualified from the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series. The ''Super Mario'' series is the standard/main series, and ''Super Mario Maker 2'' has been making effort to maintain association with both the 2D and 3D series, since they have a ''Super Mario 3D World'' format. ''Super Mario Run'' is technically a game of its own, but I think the safer bet would be to keep it in ''Super Mario'' series. This proposal is to help the ''Super Mario BROS.'' games stand out and their evolution between the different sidescrolling titles.
{|
|-
|
*[[Bayonetta]]
*[[Byleth]]
*[[Captain Falcon]]
*[[Captain Olimar]]
*[[Chrom]]
*[[Cloud Strife]]
*[[Corrin]]
*[[Dark Pit]]
*[[Dark Samus]]
*[[Duck Hunt (character)|Duck Hunt Duo]]
*[[Falco Lombardi]]
*[[Ganondorf]] (would lose Featured status in the process)
*[[Greninja]]
*[[Hero]]
*[[Ice Climbers]]
*[[Ike]]
*[[Incineroar]]
*[[Jigglypuff]]
*[[Joker]]
*[[Kazooie]]? (need to look into that one '"Club Nintendo'' comic)
|
*[[Kazuya Mishima]]
*[[Ken Masters]]
*[[King Dedede]]
*[[Little Mac]]
*[[Lucas]]
*[[Lucario]]
*[[Lucina]]
*[[Marth]]
*[[Meta Knight]]
*[[Mewtwo]]
*[[Min Min]]
*[[Mr. Game & Watch]]
*[[Ness]]
*[[Palutena]]
*[[Pichu]]
*[[Pikachu]]
*[[Pit (character)|Pit]]
*[[Pokémon Trainer]]
**[[Charizard]]
*[[Princess Zelda]]
|
*[[Pyra]] / [[Mythra]]
*[[Richter Belmont]]
*[[Ridley]]
*[[Robin]]
*[[Roy (Fire Emblem)]]
*[[Ryu]]
*[[Samus Aran]]
*[[Sephiroth]]
*[[Sheik]]
*[[Shulk]]
*[[Simon Belmont]]
*[[Solid Snake]]
*[[Sora]]
*[[Steve (Minecraft)]]
*[[Terry Bogard]]
*[[Toon Link]]
*[[Wii Fit Trainer]]
*[[Wolf O'Donnell]]
*[[Young Link]]
*[[Zero Suit Samus]]
|}


The following pages will remain unaffected:
The ''Super Mario'' name is more universal than just outside the platforming games (e.g. ''[[Super Mario Strikers]]'', for one), and is the name and trademark of the very brand itself, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of separate series beginning with "''Super Mario''", even if in this case it's referring to just the 2D and 3D games themselves.
*[[Banjo]] - playable in ''Diddy Kong Racing''
*[[Fox McCloud]] - reasonably significant appearance in the ''Club Nintendo'' comic "[[Super Mario: Mario im Wunderland]]"
*[[Inkling]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Isabelle]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Kirby]] - major appearances in ''Club Nintendo'' comics
*[[Link]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''
*[[Mega Man]] - major appearance in the ''Club Nintendo'' comic "[[Super Mario: Die Verwandlung]]"
*[[Mii]] - (playable) appearances in many ''Mario'' titles
*[[Pac-Man]] - playable in the ''Mario Kart Arcade GP'' crossover series
*[[R.O.B.]] - playable in ''Mario Kart DS''
*[[Sonic]] - playable in the ''Mario & Sonic'' crossover series
*[[Villager]] - playable in ''Mario Kart 8'' and ''Mario Kart 8 Deluxe''


I put together a sample layout that would inspire the appearance of these new fighter list pages; particularities, such as image size and whether or not fighters with intra-Wiki "main article" tags need an image to begin with, are negotiable.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Super Mario RPG}}<br>
----
'''Deadline''': May 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"data-expandtext="Show sample"data-collapsetext="Hide sample">
Page title: '''List of ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' fighters'''


This is a list of fighters in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''.
====Support====
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} As proposer.
<s>#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Per proposal, but I have concerns about Super Mario Maker 1, 3DS,2 & Super Mario Run.</s>


<big>'''Mario</big>
====Oppose====
----
#{{User|Nintendo101}} I do not support severing the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series games from their sister games. In my neck of the woods, the term "{{wp|clade}}" is widely used for taxonomic ranks that do not neatly follow the traditional Linnaean terms people learn about in high school (order, family, etc.) and unlike them, they do not denote their rank position at all. A clade can contain multiple other clades, and a clade can be contained in another clade. Unless there is a definition for "series" that I am unfamiliar with, there is no intrinsic reason why a series cannot contain multiple series or be within a series itself. The recognition of a ''Super Mario Bros.'' series does not at all indicate that they are separate from the [[Super Mario (series)|''Super Mario'' series]], a category that has been narrowly recognized as the action platformers of the greater [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Super Mario'' franchise]] as recently as [[:File:SuperMarioBros35thAnniversary - Game Collection.jpg|2020]]. Unless Nintendo explicitly states that they are not siblings of the same series, I think the assertion that ''Super Mario Land'', ''Super Mario 64'', ''Super Mario Maker'', and ''Super Mario Run'' are not within the same series as the original ''Super Mario Bros.'' or ''New Super Mario Bros. U'', and that they should not be recognized together as distinct from the rest of the franchise, is unsubstantiated.
[[File:Mario SSBUltimate.png|thumb|200px]]
#{{User|JanMisali}} The ambiguity and inconsistency surrounding which specific games are part of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries makes this less useful than it otherwise would be.
{{main|Mario#Super Smash Bros. Ultimate{{!}}Mario § Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Nintendo101.
{{br}}
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Nintendo101 and JanMisali. Plus, I see no point in separating proper 2D side-scroller Mario games such as ''Super Mario Land'' 1 & 2 from an ill-defined ''Super Mario Bros.'' series on the sole basis that those games lack the word "Bros." in their title.
<big>'''Link</big>
#{{User|Arend}} As one can see in the comments, people have vastly different views of what counts as a ''Super Mario Bros.'' game and what doesn't (e.g. Doc believes the ''Super Mario Land'' games don't count because Luigi doesn't appear in them, I think that's superficial and that the ''Land'' games should still be counted as at least related since the general gameplay is still the same otherwise). While a good idea on paper, it will lead to many arguments and disagreements until we get a definite answer from Nintendo what should count and what shouldn't... and all we get from Nintendo is that they lump every ''Super Mario'' game, from ''Bros'' to ''Land'' to ''64'' to ''Sunshine'' to ''Maker'' to ''Run'' to ''Odyssey'', as part of the same series.
----
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, especially the fact that the Super Mario Bros. series is a subset of the Super Mario series anyway. If we separated SMB as its own thing, wouldn't that be implying the Super Mario series only contains 3D games and miscellanea like Maker? Because that's certainly not the case.
[[File:LinkSSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, and also the mere fact that jan Misali did in fact make a 40+ minute video on roughly this same subject, juxtaposed with the comments below. This would be an extremely strange thing to try to enforce when there's no fewer than 4 major standards for what even counts as a ''Super Mario'' game, and one of them is literally our own.
{{main|Link#Super Smash Bros. Ultimate{{!}}Link § Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}
#{{User|Scrooge200}} How do we know what's mainline? Everything is senseless 'cause there's no consensus. Opening us up to even more inconsistency would just make it harder to navigate and lead to pointless back-and-forth edits on what goes where.
{{br}}
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} While it is a good idea, there's just too many unanswered questions. So sorry, but I have to change to oppose.
<big>'''Ness</big>
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all.
----
[[File:Ness SSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main-external|SmashWiki|Ness (SSBU)}}
Ness appears as an unlockable playable fighter in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''. While his moveset is mostly unchanged from the previous ''Super Smash Bros.'' titles, he has received various new tweaks to his moves. Ness now emits PSI when pummeling opponents and while using his neutral aerial. His up aerial, rather than headbutting, has him waving his hands in the air. In addition, for his PK Fire and PSI Magnet moves, graphics are taken from ''EarthBound''. He and Lucas have a new victory theme, which is an arrangement of the last two of the Eight Melodies from ''EarthBound Beginnings''.


Several of Ness's attacks receive names: his forward smash is called Batter Up!, his up smash is called Around the World, his down smash is called Walk the Dog, his forward throw is called PK Throw, and his back throw is called Reverse PK Throw.
====Comments====
@SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA): I addressed some of the concerns about the ''Mario Maker'' (which implements ''3D World'' in a sidescrolling format) and ''Run'' titles. Should this pass, it could be a step toward a different proposal reconsidering their respective association to the ''Super Mario'' series. This is just the starting point. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:18, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
:True, but only ''Mario Maker 2'' implemented ''3D World'', and ''Run'', from experience, has all the hallmarks of a ''NSMB'' game, whereas the ''Mario Maker'' games COULD be seen as related to the ''NSMB'' games due to having ''NSMBU'' as a game style, although they are a part of the same series as ''SMB'', ''SMB3'', & ''SMW''. Otherwise that helps. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
::Basically, it's on Nintendo to sort this out, not us. We're just reflecting what the official sources say, in spite of any discrepancies that may occur. "Related" wouldn't mean putting it under the same heading (check [[Super Mario (series)#Ports, remakes, and compilations|here]], for instance, has ''Captain Toad'', ''Super Mario World 2'', ''Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3''. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:25, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
:::And the official sources say [[Super Mario Bros. 35th Anniversary#Games|this]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:We already had [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider mainline status of Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run|a proposal reconsidering their respective association to the ''Super Mario'' series]] somewhat recently, and it failed. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)


;Classic Mode route
I don't think it should be "separated" so much as covered in both places. I have a skeleton for the SMB series [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario Bros. (series)|here]] and one for the 3D series [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Super Mario 3D (series)|here]]. ''Land'' and ''Maker'' are additional subseries, while ''Run'' is its own thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:28, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
{|class="wikitable" style="margin: auto;" align=left
:The user subpages of those two series only add to the point why I think the section sorting is worth reconsidering, and that some disjointment on Nintendo's part shouldn't be a disqualifier to separating the 2D and 3D series. [[User:Super Mario RPG|Super Mario RPG]] ([[User talk:Super Mario RPG|talk]]) 14:32, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!colspan="5"|Home to Onett!
::Look, my WIP Super Mario (franchise) rework does have 2D-3D seperation, but it's WIP, so it's not finished. It only so far has ''Mario Bros.'', ''Super Mario (series)'', & ''Wrecking Crew'', but the ''Super Mario (series)'' bit is basically my main focus. I have ''Super Mario (series)'' into 2 sub-series based on the 2D-3D stuff and their shared names (no, the argument that the ''Super Mario'' name is the same for the 2D & 3D games doesn't work because the 2D games share the same ''Super Mario Bros.'' name, which I use for the 2D sub-series), while also splitting 2 sub-sub-series, ''Super Mario Land'' (because of the old ambiguity, the fact of a different shared name, Wario Land series, etc.) & ''NSMB'' (Different style from other games yet consistent within itself, objects from DS existing in Wii, DS & Wii objects existing in U, etc.). I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone more than I probably already have. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:49, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|-
:::''Super Mario Land'' can't be a sub-series of ''Bros.'' because there's no "bros" in it, it's just Mario. (Granted, the same can be said about ''Special'', but it's a blatant retool of SMB assets so it gets a pass.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:53, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!width=20px|Round
::::Uhh, I listed it as a sub-series of ''Bros'' because it was listed with the ''Bros.'' games in the 30th anniversary celebration and onward. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:54, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!width=150px|Opponent(s)
:::::Except that list wasn't referred to as "''Super Mario Bros.'' games," that list was labeled "some 2D games Mario has appeared in." (It also missed a few, like NSMB2.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:58, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!width=100px|Stage
::::::(facepalm) No, not THAT list. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 15:11, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!width=250px|Song
:::::::Then what list? Care to link or show an image? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|-
::::::::Look [[Super Mario Bros. 30th Anniversary#Gallery|here]]. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 19:24, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!1
:::::::::That list includes the 3D platformers too. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:41, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|Ness (blue costume)
::::::::::So? It shows that the ''Maker'' games & ''Run'' are part of the same series as ''SMB'', ''SMW'' & ''NSMB''. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 19:53, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|[[Magicant]]
:::::::::::So this is not an example of an official source classifying the games in the same way this proposal suggests. The fact that this list includes ''Super Mario Land'' does not demonstrate that ''Super Mario Land'' is part of a specific subset of ''Super Mario'' games that includes ''Super Mario Bros.'' and excludes ''Super Mario 64''. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 19:58, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|Magicant <small>(for 3DS / Wii U)</small>
::::::::::::No, but it proves my main point. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 20:01, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|-
:::::::::::::It proves that ''Super Mario Land'' is a mainline game, but that wasn't under question. The thing that was asked was why your list of ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, as a separate subseries, includes the ''Super Mario Land'' games as a sub-subseries. This source could also justify classifying the 3D games as a sub-subseries of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries for exactly the same reason. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 20:05, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
!2
::::::::::::::Ok. 1. this lists the ''Super Mario (Bros.)'' series. 2. The ''Super Mario'' sub-series (3D games) ARE listed here, but are separate due to recent official stuff. 3. The ''Super Mario Land'' games are listed as a sub-series to the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series (2D games) because, despite the different shared names, which are a reason of them being a sub-sub-series, ARE ''Super Mario Bros.'' games. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 20:14, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|[[Lucas]]
:::::::::::::::The ''Super Mario Run'' notification is ''very'' specific in how it phrases its statement. ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' is the first "side-scrolling entry" in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series in 11 years. That specificity means that there ''could'' be entries in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series which are ''not'' side-scrolling games, because otherwise there'd by no reason to specifically say "last side-scrolling entry". I believe these sources taken together ''could'' imply that at least some of the 3D games are ''Super Mario Bros.'' games, and that using "''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries" to refer to the 2D platformers is not helpful. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 20:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|[[New Pork City]]
:::::::::::::::They are ''not'' "Super Mario Bros." games, Luigi isn't in them. Hard to be "Bros." without the Bros. (Though again, ''Special'' is the exception due to its watered-down nature). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|You Call This a Utopia?!
::::::::::::::::Luigi is ''only'' in the (early) Super Mario Bros. games because of the 2-player mode. If ''Super Mario Land'' and ''Super Mario Land 2'' had the possibility of a 2-player mode, then Luigi would obviously be added in those games (we know that Nintendo tried adding Luigi in ''Super Mario 64'' but scrapped it due to difficulties with adding multiplayer). If we ''had'' to hard-gatekeep the Mario Land games out of the ''Super Mario Bros.'' subseries (even as a spinoff to it like ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Super Mario Run'', then logically, we should do the same with ''[[New Super Luigi U]]'', which features no Mario at all (and since ''New Super Luigi U'' has been released at one point as a standalone game, ''and'' we've been counting campaigns like ''[[Bowser's Fury]]'' as official entries, I think that should count).<br>To me, I think we should view the Land games, the Maker games, and Run at least as related games to the ''Bros.'' titles, since they feature basically the exact same kind of gameplay as any other ''Super Mario Bros.'' title. Hell, ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'', the USA version, is more different than ''Land 1'' in terms of gameplay, yet we're counting it as an official entry. I don't think the ''Land'' games should be exempt purely because of something as superficial as "there's no Luigi in it". {{User:Arend/sig}} 06:14, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|-
:::::::::::::::::I mean, by virtue of all those games being Super Mario games, they (along with the 3D games) should be "related" to the Super Mario Bros. series by default, right? To distinguish "related" beyond that, deciding if a game is "related" to a subseries that it shares a larger series with anyway, feels a bit hair-splitting. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
!3
:::::::::::::::The notification does also specifically say that ''Super Mario Bros.'' is a "series of side-scrolling action games", so to then say afterwards that ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' is the first side-scrolling game in 11 years... I feel like their intent is pretty obvious here. I was an SMB series doubter for the longest time, but first with that quote in one of the interviews leading up to ''Wonder'', and now with this notification in-game in ''Super Mario Run'', it's definitely giving the impression that Nintendo considers Super Mario Bros. a sub-series. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 21:26, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
|[[R.O.B.]] (purple costume) ×3
::::::::::::::::Well, it said "side-scrolling" games, & ''Maker'' is a game-maker game, while ''Run'' is like one of those auto levels but you have some control, so at that point we'll need at least one extra layer. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 08:25, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|[[Fourside]]
:::::::::::::::::''Maker'' and ''Run'' both have cameras that scroll to the side. That's the literal definition of "side-scrolling game". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:51, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|Fourside
::::::::::::::::::(facepalm) It said "'''''side-scrolling action games'''''", which, yes, ''Maker'' & ''Run'' fit in, but both ''Maker'' & ''Run'' also fit under other categories, whilst this notification only specifies side-scrolling action games, NOT other categories of games OR games that mix categories (like ''Maker'' & ''Run''). [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 10:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|-
:::::::::::::::::::But you admit that Run and Maker also fit the definition of "side-scrolling action games". Your idea that the classification excludes "games that mix categories" is not supported at all by the text of the notification. By that logic, would the [[New Super Mario Bros.#Minigames|minigames]] included in New Super Mario Bros. somehow disqualify it from the series too? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:35, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
!4
::::::::::::::::::::No, because ''NSMB'''s minigames are not the main game. ''Maker'' being a game-maker game AND a side-scrolling game, or ''Run'' being an "automatic movement with some control" game, ARE the main game. The text of the notification ONLY says "side scrolling action game", but not anything else in terms of type of game. And I never said anything about games being disqualified, because of other official sources including games like ''NSMB'', ''Maker'', etc. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|[[Sheik]]
:::::::::::::::::::::Indeed, the notification only says "side-scrolling action games", not "side-scrolling action games except those that also feature other elements". {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|[[Gerudo Valley]]
:::::::::::::::::Has anyone considered that the reason they stated that "''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' is the first side-scrolling entry in the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series in 11 years", because they may consider ''Super Mario Run'' and the ''Super Mario Maker'' games as ''spinoffs'' to the ''Super Mario Bros.'' series? I mean, for comparison, ''[[Mario Party: The Top 100]]'' and ''[[Mario Party Superstars]]'' only includes information from Mario Party 1-10, leaving out ''[[Mario Party Advance]]'', ''[[Mario Party DS]]'', ''[[Mario Party: Island Tour]]'', ''[[Mario Party: Star Rush]]'', and in Superstars's case, ''[[Super Mario Party]]''; but these are all undoubtedly ''Mario Party'' games as well, with ''DS'' and ''Super'' in particular featuring the same basic gameplay as the first eight ''Mario Party'' titles. {{User:Arend/sig}} 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|Bein' Friends
::::::::::::::::::Well, Super Mario Bros. for NES is the first game in both the Super Mario Bros. series and the broader Super Mario series, so anything only in the latter would be a "spinoff" of the former anyway, right? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:16, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
|-
!5
|[[Toon Link]] (dark costume) ×2
|[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]]
|Unfounded Revenge / Smashing Song of Praise
|-
!6
|[[Villager]], [[Isabelle]]
|[[Onett]]
|Onett Theme / Winters Theme
|-
!Final
|[[Master Hand]], [[Crazy Hand]] ''(intensity 7.0 or higher)''
|[[Final Destination]]
|Master Hand<br>Master Hand / Crazy Hand ''(intensity 7.0 or higher)''
|}
{{br}}
;Gallery
<gallery>
10-Ness.png|Stock icon
SSBUltimate Launch Star.jpg
</gallery>
{{br}}
<big>'''Simon</big>
----
[[File:Simon Belmont SSBU.png|thumb|200px]]
{{main-external|SmashWiki|Simon (SSBU)}}
'''Simon Belmont''' is a protagonist from Konami's ''{{wp|Castlevania}}'' video game series, debuting in its very first entry. He makes his ''[[Super Smash Bros. (series)|Super Smash Bros.]]'' debut in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' as a third-party playable character, alongside fellow Konami characters [[Solid Snake]] and [[Richter Belmont]], his descendant. He was announced to be playable in the game during the August 2018 ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' Direct, alongside fellow newcomers Richter, [[Chrom]], [[Dark Samus]], and [[King K. Rool]].


Simon's various attacks involve him using his "Vampire Killer" whip. His special attacks are Axe, an axe that is a powerful projectile; Holy Water, a magical, multi-hitting projectile dealing flame damage; Cross, a projectile with boomerang-esque properties; and Uppercut, a powerful uppercut that functions as Simon's recovery move. His Final Smash, Grand Cross, involves trapping players in a coffin and destroying it. Simon's whip is long-ranged, being effective to use from far distances. Simon's forward, back, and up aerials also function as tether recoveries, making them useful for recovering when close to an edge.
{{@|Hewer}} That's one of the things I used for my ''Super Mario (series)'' sub-series split. Also, I don't think that this will affect ''Maker'' and ''Run'''s mainline status. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 10:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:I don't understand what you mean. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:48, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::You brought up [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/63#Reconsider mainline status of Super Mario Maker, Super Mario Maker 2, and Super Mario Run|this]] (which the second part of my reply was directed to), & as for the 1st part, I don't really remember what that was supposed to be directed to. Seems to be directed to one of the various things you said here, but it could've been for someone else. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::For the second part, I'm aware this proposal won't directly affect Maker and Run's mainline status, but Super Mario RPG said that this "could be a step toward a different proposal reconsidering their respective association to the ''Super Mario'' series", which is why I brought up that past proposal that tried to do exactly that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:04, May 10, 2024 (EDT)


{{wp|Keith Silverstein}}, Simon's English voice actor in ''{{wp|Castlevania: Judgment}}'', reprises his role as Simon. {{wp|Hideo Ishikawa}}, who voiced Simon in ''DreamMix TV World Fighters'', also reprises the role in the Japanese version.
"Anything only in the latter would be a "spinoff" of the former anyway, right?" By that logic, with the ''[[Mario Bros. (game)|Mario Bros.]]'' beginning both the ''[[Mario Bros. (series)|Mario Bros.]]'' series and the greater [[Super Mario (franchise)|''Mario'' franchise]], shouldn't the entire mainline Mario series, being a "spinoff" of ''Mario Bros.'', all be merged under one "''Mario'' (mainline series)" header? Not only is that an organizational mess, but Nintendo has never treated it as being such.<br>While you could argue it was ambiguous before, I feel now that Nintendo has given us a very clear delineation of a separate "''Super Mario Bros.'' series of side-scrolling action games" that excludes the ''Maker'' games and ''[[Super Mario Run]]'' (which were released in the 11 years between ''Wonder'' and "[[New Super Mario Bros. U|the last side-scrolling entry]]"). Let me emphasize: A series of ''side-scrolling action games'', and this is a ''side-scrolling entry'' in the series of ''side-scrolling action games''. It seems like a stretch of logic to infer from this that there could be non-side scrolling and/or non-action games in a side-scrolling action series. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 12:10, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:Under the logic of the 1st 2 setences, we should merge all 4 franchises and all the series into 1 article! Also, for the last sentence, what about games that are both ''side-scrolling action games'' AND ''non-side-scrolling action games (like game-making or "automatic movement with some control" games)''? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:24, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::If a game is a side-scrolling action game, it can't also be a non-side-scrolling action game, this isn't Schrödinger's game genre. Being able to make levels in the Maker games doesn't mean their side-scrolling action elements somehow don't exist. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:I agree with you about the classification of the Super Mario Bros. series as part of the Super Mario series, my point was more that "spinoff" is a bit of a useless classification when we're dealing with sub-sub-series and what have you. However, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Split game series articles into sub-series articles|I don't think we need to have a Super Mario Bros. series article separate from the main Super Mario series article]], if that's what you're suggesting. I feel like the Mario Bros. example isn't really comparable because of how obviously untenable merging most of the franchise's distinct series into a single page would be. In my opinion, series contained within series shouldn't get articles, but series contained within franchises should. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::But then what about DKL? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:28, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::What about it? It's a related yet separate series to DKC. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::It could be considered a sub-series of DKC, due to its numerous similarities (& especially DKC2/DKL2 and DKC3/DKL3), and thus wouldn't deserve an article. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:34, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::A sub-series is a series contained within another series, not a related yet separate series, which is what DKL is. Compare Mario Tennis and Mario Golf - they're similar, related series of sports games developed by [[Camelot]], but are separate as neither can be said to contain the other. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:39, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::::And yet Mario Golf & Golf are part of the same overall series, which has to do with golf, and all the sports games are all part of the same overall sports series. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:41, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::[[Golf (series)|Uh, no?]] {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:44, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::1, "...eventually leading to the Mario Golf series...". 2. [[NES Open Tournament Golf]] is part of both series. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 12:48, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::Good point, but I still think it's a stretch to call them part of the same series, and that doesn't seem to be the wiki's current interpretation, with the [[Mario Golf (series)]] article referring to the "previous ''Golf'' series", and much like with DKC and DKL, "leading to" doesn't necessarily mean "containing" (though admittedly some kind of re-evaluation of the golf games might be in order since [https://www.nintendo.com/jp/character/mario/en/history/index.html Nintendo seems to consider Japan Course and US Course as Mario Golf games]). Anyway, to return to the topic of the Super Mario series, I still don't think there's any sub-series that need splits here. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:19, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::I never said that DKC LEAD TO DKL, but DKC2 is almost the same as DKL2, and same with DKC3 & DKL3. Also, what do other people think concerning "there's any sub-series that need splits here"? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 13:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::::::::::Uh, I thought we were in agreement that DKC led to DKL, that much at least seems inarguable ([[Donkey Kong Land (series)]] article tells us "The series is based on the ''Donkey Kong Country'' series"). I just don't think that makes DKL a "sub-series" of DKC, but rather a [[Donkey Kong Country (series)#Related series|related series]], since neither series contains the other. But I digress. Anyway, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Split game series articles into sub-series articles|this quite recent proposal]] dealt with splitting sub-series, and it failed by quite a margin. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:38, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::::::::::I never said DKC led to DKL. All I was saying was that DKC2/3 are basically the same as DKL2/3. As for that linked proposal, see my comments on that proposal. <small><small><small><small>Also there are other contributions I made that are still "current", so anyone (including you) needs to reply so that they can keep going. </small></small></small></small>[[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&#38;K(B&#38;ATSA)|talk]]) 14:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)


In his debut trailer, he arrives at [[Dracula's Castle]] and eliminates Death shortly after the latter killed [[Luigi]]. He later confronts [[Dracula]] himself but is nearly defeated, only to be saved by his descendant Richter.<ref> Nintendo (August 8, 2018). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awl4L0yVdkg Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Direct 8.8.2018] ''YouTube''. Retrieved August 8, 2018</ref>
Ah, wait, I think I misunderstood the proposal at first. Is this basically an extension of the proposal to get rid of "franchise" headings, to be able to separate the SMB games and other Super Mario games into different places in the History section? [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 14:45, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:The comments have strayed off-topic a bit but yeah, I think so. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:23, May 11, 2024 (EDT)


Similar to [[King Dedede]] in ''[[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]]'' and [[Lucina]] in ''[[Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS]] / [[Super Smash Bros. for Wii U|Wii U]]'', Simon's name is announced differently in the Japanese version to reflect the pronunciation in that language. This trait is also shared with Richter and King K. Rool.
===Move ''Super Mario Odyssey'' kingdom infobox brochure info to Brochure details section and use the generic course infobox for ''Odyssey'' kingdom articles===
It is strange that, while infoboxes for courses in ''Super Mario 64'' or ''Galaxy'' feature useful data for players (like missions and comets for galaxy articles), we don't have any of that type of info in the ''Odyssey'' Kingdom infobox (such as number of Power Moons, number of regional coins and bosses). The infobox template for ''Odyssey'' kingdoms include just the brochure data, like population and industry, but, since that is fictional and irrelevant data, we should move it to the kingdom article's brochure details section, as it ''is'' just brochure data.


In the Adventure mode, Simon is seen standing near a cliff when he and the other fighters oppose [[Galeem]] for the first time. Although Simon is not shown to be hit by Galeem's beams directly, he, like every fighter except [[Kirby]], is imprisoned in the World of Light, where a Galeem-serving puppet fighter of him is created. Simon is later freed after his puppet fighter is defeated, and he subsequently joins Kirby's team against Galeem and later [[Dharkon]].
I propose:
* Moving the current kindom infobox (centered on brochure info: kingdom and location taglines, population, size, locals, currency, industry and temperature) to the Brochure details section. The kingdom tagline could be displayed as the quote at the top of the article as well.
* Use the [[Template:Course infobox|course infobox]] instead for the opening of the article, as that is already used for the 3D games' courses and galaxies without distinction.
* Adding info for the number of Power Moons and number of regional coins into the course infobox template.


Simon is a heavy fighter, being heavier than Snake, [[R.O.B.]], and [[Banjo]] & [[Kazooie]] but lighter than [[Samus Aran|Samus]], [[Bowser Jr.]] (and the [[Koopalings]]), Dark Samus, and [[Terry Bogard|Terry]], while having the same weight as [[Wario]], [[Ike]], [[Ridley]], and Richter.
In order to maintain the layout of the Brochure details sections intact, we could make the kingdom infobox into a horizontal box like so:


;Classic Mode route
{| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" width="100%;"
{| class="wikitable" style="margin: auto;" align=left
!Horizontal box idea
!colspan="5"|Smash-vania
|-
!width=20px|Round
!width=150px|Opponent(s)
!width=100px|Rule
!width=150px|Stage
!width=200px|Song
|-
|-
!1
|[[King K. Rool]], [[Incineroar]] (black costume)
|
|
|[[Dracula's Castle]] (Battlefield)
{| style="width: 80%; font-size: .9em; padding: .4em; background-color: white; margin: auto;"
|Vampire Killer
|-
|-
!2
|rowspan=5 style="width:280px" | [[File:SMO Cap Brochure Art.png|280px]]
|Giant [[Ridley]]
|colspan=2 | <big><big>'''Cap Kingdom'''</big></big><br>"''Home of Tradition, Propriety, and Hats''"
|
|[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]] (Ω)
|Out of Time
|-
|-
!3
|colspan=2 | <Big>Bonneton</big><br>"''A land of haberdashed dreams.''"
|[[Bayonetta]], [[Dark Pit]]
|-bgcolor=whitesmoke
|Free-for-All
|'''Population'''
|[[Umbra Clock Tower]]
|Middling
|Bloody Tears / Monster Dance
|'''Size'''
|Smallish
|-
|-
!4
|'''Locals'''
|[[Charizard]] (blue costume), [[King Dedede]] (green costume)
|Bonneters
|
|'''Currency'''
|[[Kalos Pokémon League]]
|Hat-shaped
|Beginning
|-bgcolor="whitesmoke"
|-
|'''Industry'''
!5
|Hats, Airships
|[[Bowser]], [[Ganondorf]], [[Mewtwo]]
|'''Temperature'''
|
|Average 71°F (22°C)
|[[Reset Bomb Forest]]
|}
|Simon Belmont Theme (The Arcade)
|-
!6
|[[Richter Belmont|Richter]]
|
|Dracula's Castle
|Divine Bloodlines
|-
!Final
|[[Dracula]]
|
|
|Nothing to Lose<br>Black Night
|}
|}
{{br}}
'''Proposer''': {{User|Bro Hammer}}<br>
;Gallery
'''Deadline''': May 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
<gallery>
66-Simon.png|Stock icon
SSBU Axe Simon.png|<small>Standard special:</small><br>Axe
SSBU Cross Simon.png|<small>Side special:</small><br>Cross
SSBU Rising Uppercut Simon.png|<small>Up special:</small><br>Rising Uppercut
SSBU Holy Water Simon.png|<small>Down special:</small><br>Holy Water
SSBUGrandCross.png|<small>Final Smash:</small><br>Grand Cross
</gallery>
</div>
----
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': January 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT


====Support====
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} According to calculations that came to me in a dream, this proposal has an 86.489% chance of failure.
#{{User|Bro Hammer}} Per my proposal.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per proposal and the discussion on Discord. ''Smash Bros.'' is a crossover, sure, but ''Mario'' content is now very minor compared to the games' first installment, and the problem will only continue to get worse and worse with each coming game and their DLC.
#{{User|Hewer}} Sounds reasonable, per proposal.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} I'm looking at these pages for Smash characters, and... this is just a less comprehensive version of what's on the Smash wiki. I really don't see the need for these. Perhaps they could be just trimmed, but... well, that'll happen anyway with this whole list thing.
#{{User|Arend}} As long as we still use the (revised horizontal) infobox in the brochure details, per all.
#{{User|Cosmic Cowboy}} Yeah. I gauged interest for this on the forums, and we aren't trying to be SmashWiki here. SmashWiki exists for a reason, you know?
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Nice idea! Per all.
#{{User|Shiny K-Troopa}} This is the only NIWA wiki hogging ''Smash'' content like this, it makes no sense. Most of it is irrelevant to ''Mario'' and Super Smash Wiki has a purpose.
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Good idea, and I like the horizontal box.
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} I've never been fond of our ''Smash'' coverage here, and nothing's stopping us from changing our policy ''after'' this proposal rather than before.
#{{User|Jazama}} Per all
#{{User|Somethingone}} If us worrying about not treating Smash as a crossover was a valid reason to stop all our trimming of the coverage of it, we have passed all the points where we could stop everything and have a reasonable policy whilst keeping that fact in mind. We could have stopped when we first changed its status from "crossover" to "special case", but we didn't. We could have stopped when we merged the items into a list page, but we didn't. We could have stopped anytime between those two critical points and had a (mostly) reasonable Smash policy, but we didn't. Now, we're at a point where simply doing nothing creates a coverage confuddlement of picking and choosing things based on arbitrary metrics, and I can't help but find the arguments against this proposal a wee bit misguided. '''No,''' this proposal is not going to remove any information regarding Smash by merging things into a list. That didn't happen when we merged the items, or the bosses, or the Subspace Emmisary stages. At worst, we trim a bunch of sentences to better summarize them with a space limit in mind, splitting the lists up if they get too big. But ''that is just standard practice on this wiki when we deal with a lot of text,'' unless this wiki somehow decides to never trim pages ever again? But regardless, how is it possible that after years of debate on this topic there is still so much drama over trimming information about non-Mario characters' Smash appearances, yet nobody batted an eye when [https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/3778173 we suddenly stopped covering Smash information in full on Mario's ''own'' article without any prior discussion]? And '''no,''' doing this proposed merge would ''not'' be inconsistent with the way we cover the stickers, trophies, spirits, etc. We don't have individual pages describing every single one of those in extraneous detail or, even worse, with just the description of each trophy on each page. We keep all of those in list pages instead, just like we now do with the items and the bosses. If anything, it's even ''more'' inconsistent leaving our policy as it is now, as like I mentioned it's arbitrary cherry picking what we do and don't want to have full coverage. '''No,''' doing this merge will not impact our search results (don't even try bringing that faulty argument up) as we would still have redirect pages on this wiki, under the names people search up to which they click and are brought to the list pages. I've tried it before, and that is what happens, not "nobody clicks on those pages anymore". '''No,''' Smash is absolutely not in any way comparable to any other crossover Mario has been in. Why is it not in any way comparable to any other crossover Mario has been in? It's not just because it's a multi way crossover from 50+ different game series, it's because Nintendo has largely treated Smash as its own unique series with its own unique things to it instead of ''just'' a multi way crossover. Master Hand, Crazy Hand, Tabuu, Galeem, Dharkom, Battlefield/the other non-series-specific stages, the Home Run Contest and Target Practice, everything in Subspace Emmisary, etc. None of these things are from any specific series, they are all Smash-original. How much crossover-original, interactible, non-generic content do other crossovers like M&S, Fortune Steeet, Mario & Rabbids, etc. have? Very little. And most importantly, '''No,''' the amount of Mario content in Smash is ''NOT'' in any way significantly more than any other series's content in Smash, and Mario does not have special Smash treatment in any way. Nintendo never marketed it as a Mario game, never treated it as such, never showed a clear preference towards Mario in the Smash games themselves, and if it ever seems like it did, please remember just how big the greater Mario franchise is as a whole. The only time that Mario could have maybe almost kind-of sort-of had a bigger promise was in the first Smash installment, but that's it. Heck, was Smash ever listed on any Mario-series guidebooks (I.e., on ESMB or something else)? I don't know, but I honestly doubt so. '''TL, DR;''' If we wanted Smash as a full crossover, we wouldn't have given it special status back then. If we don't want inconsistency by making the fighters into a list page, we wouldn't have merged ''every''* other aspect into a list page. And if we are worried about a loss of information from this proposal, it's most likely just a worry as condensing information & linking to SmashWiki does not do that to such a significant degree. Strong support, I just want this nonsense to end.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.


====Oppose====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Absoutely no. We have had many proposals to restrict''Smash Bros.'' information that failed and this would be one of the most serious. The game is a crossover, so we have to cover all the relevant information that a crossover game must have. At least with other instances, those were just gameplay mechanics or related to non-playable characters. This is merely giving the game a guest appearance role, which would go against what we stood on the games for years. This proposal also fails to mention the Subspace Emissary which has many of the characters interact (and this is why I felt merging Master Hand and other story-related bosses wasn't a good decision). I'd only really accept this if the game was considered a guest appearance but we have consistently referred to it as a crossover. I feel that these pages could be important if people want to know which characters have crossovered with the franchise at one point.
#{{User|LadySophie17}} I like the infobox as it is. It's charming and harmless. If necessary, we could just add the relevant info like number of Power Moons, Regional Coins and following/preceding kingdoms to the template itself.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Our stance on trimming Smash coverage has, in almost every instance, been to condense information, not cut it. This would not only completely reverse that stance, but start top down at what is pretty much the most important aspect of the series - a change like this, if it were to go through, should really start bottom up. Axing this much information on fighters, when [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Merge_all_non-Mario_universe_Super_Smash_Bros._Stages_into_a_collective_article|we couldn't even get a consensus on merging the stages]] just a few months ago and elements of the series like trophies, stickers, and spirits are still covered in full, is a weird way to go about it and definitely too much, too fast. Aside from that, I don't think splitting this into one page per game would be the best way to do this. There's a lot of overlap between fighters, and realistically, how different is Captain Falcon across the series that we need to split that information over five pages? (Also, I'd say Samus would be worth keeping around too since she had a physical appearance in SMRPG.)
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. Though I have been in favor of condensing and limiting some of the ''Smash Bros.'', but like my position on having articles for stages, I feel that fighters are important enough to have their own articles, especially when the games are considered crossover appearances. I am also not in favor of completely cutting content unless it refers to very minor aspects of the series.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Yeah, no. Per every individual point raised above.
#{{User|Paper Jorge}} If we're gonna start violently trimming Super Smash Bros. content, I think starting at the prominent, notable and major playable characters with various crossover cameos ''instead'' of starting at trophies, Lylat Cruise convos, spirits, challenges, you name it........is horrible. Terrible prioritizing. I actually think if we're gonna reinvent the wheel and start from scratch, the playable characters and stages should be the most important things to keep.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} After thinking about for a little bit, I have to agree with the opposition here. Trimming down coverage on things like items and bosses is one thing, but these are the characters that are the most vital part about the game. This wiki covers all Mario-related crossovers. It is why we have articles for Sonic characters because they appear in the Mario & Sonic games and make up half of the cast, we can't just go around trimming content for the sake of them not being Mario characters. Ultimately, like the users above, I find this to be unnecessary.
#{{User|Hewer}} The main reason I'm opposing this is because I think it's inconsistent with how we handle other crossover games. While it's true that, say, Mario & Sonic has a much greater proportion of Mario content than Smash does, that doesn't change the fact that there is still a significant amount of Mario content in Smash, and the Sonic characters in Mario & Sonic that we give their own articles don't have much more to do with the Mario series than all the Smash characters, the only real difference between them being that one crossover has significantly fewer franchises involved in it than the other. If we decide to make a change like this then I think we should first revise the [[MarioWiki:Coverage|coverage policy]] as a whole, because it doesn't seem logical to me to merge the Smash cast into Lists of Super Smash Bros. fighters without also having List of Sonic the Hedgehog characters in Mario & Sonic, List of Dragon Quest characters in Fortune Street, etc. Also, merging fighters when every [[stage]] is still split even after a somewhat recent failed merge proposal for them is kind of ridiculous.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all. I've thought about the comparison to Sonic series characters in the Mario & Sonic series as well; even if Mario & Sonic is a much smaller crossover compared to Smash, both are still crossovers. If we cut/trim/lower information on Smash fighters, we'd have to do the same for characters like Tails or Shadow or Vector cause even if Mario & Sonic is just two franchises, those characters have about as much relevance to the Mario series as characters like Ness, Wii Fit Trainer or the Duck Hunt Dog do.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
@Wikiboy10, err, there's a specific statement right there in the proposal that Subspace Emissary info will be kept. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:44, January 23, 2023 (EST)
Actually, given that the brochure infobox's info is already displayed in a similar table in the brochures in-game, wouldn't it be a good idea to simply just ''move'' the kingdom infobox to the article's brochure details section, instead of removing the infobox altogether? That would be the simplest way to move all the info to that section ''and'' keep both the kingdom tagline and area tagline neatly in the brochure where it already belongs in-game, instead of separating it to the top of the page. The course infobox can still take the kingdom infobox's initial placement on the article, it's not like we haven't had articles with multiple infoboxes before. {{User:Arend/sig}} 20:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:I think I'd prefer that too. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 20:38, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:I guess, but that would mess up the layout used in the brochure details sections, which I personally think looks pretty nice and clean the way it is, which is why I didn't consider it (unless we made the box horizontal). You think it is worth it? {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 21:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::You've got a point there. Maybe we could try to revamp the infobox to be horizontal so it wouldn't have to mess up the layout. {{User:Arend/sig}} 22:59, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
:::I updated it and kept the box as you suggested. If you have any ideas on how to improve it, please let me know. {{User:Bro Hammer/sig}} 23:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
::::Looks great! I'd probably set the <code>colspan</code> for the Kingdom name/area name/taglines to <code>4</code> instead of <code>2</code> so it would look nice in 4:3 screens (i.e. iPad), and I'd probably try to keep the [[Template:SMO kingdom infobox/styles.css|styles]] that the infobox had as much as possible (e.g. with the dark khaki border and area tagline), but it's perfectly serviceable regardless. {{User:Arend/sig}} 07:50, May 11, 2024 (EDT)


@Waluigi Time: Where do we draw a line between condensation and removal of information? What about the former [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/52#Delete_the_bonuses_pages_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series|bonuses pages]]: that information was outright removed due to being irrelevant and having equivalent coverage on the Smash Wiki. The amount of detail given to each character's special move set is similarly completely out of line with this website's scope and is being better handled on the other wiki. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:01, January 23, 2023 (EST)
I should probably note though, that all ''Super Mario Sunshine'' courses (e.g. [[Sirena Beach]], [[Pinna Park]]) appear to use the location infobox instead of the course infobox. Would that also have to be changed (or at least determined via another proposal)? {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:50, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
:It seems to me that anything we have cut has always been the nitty-gritty minor elements of the series. Besides fighters, we still cover all the available information on the stages, items (including Assist Trophies and Pokemon), bosses, side modes, and the collectibles I mentioned, even for what's been merged to list pages. Setting aside my own opinions on Smash coverage, I just don't think starting by gutting the most important element of the series is a good idea when all of that is still on the table. There's a reason why the successful Smash coverage proposals have been done gradually, and why the ones that have tried to do too much at once failed. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:20, January 23, 2023 (EST)
::And wouldn't the in-depth explanations that this wiki currently provides for each character's moveset be well beyond reasonable? Smash Bros. items, Assist Trophies, and assist Pokemon aren't nearly comparable to fighters in gameplay role; there's only so much you can write about these, and their current coverage already lays down the gist for each. Recurring side modes like Break the Targets and Home Run should be broken up and merged with their relevant game articles (keep in mind that subjects like Mob Smash and Classic Mode are currently handled in this way, and that works well enough), and the collectible lists continue to have hosts of irrelevant information the likes of which this wiki should get rid of, albeit I agree the way this was attempted was not the best. In contrast to the unsuccessful proposals you mentioned, the present one pursues a very clear goal: merge fighters into game-related pages and, in the process of assuring these pages are within acceptable parameters, trim the useless and deprecated information that takes the form of detailed movesets. The alternative approach would have been to make this proposal a two-parter, where one establishes whether said information should be trimmed, and the other finally advocates merging the fighters provided the first one passes, but I think the proposal in its current form serves to accelerate the process whilst providing two simple options. With all that said, I do operate under the assumption that, given the two-part proposal situation, there would have been a sizeable overlap between the people who would support one and the people who would support the other, as would be the case with the opposition. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:14, January 23, 2023 (EST)
:::I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what's "reasonable" to cover then, since we have totally opposed stances here and I doubt any more back and forth would change that. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:00, January 23, 2023 (EST)
@Paper Jorge: As far as the wiki is concerned, fighters and stages are just another aspect of the game, regardless of how you or anyone else perceives them. Fighters may be the game's main draw, but that essentially only plays into player preference and sympathy, and this is their only claim to coverage priority on this wiki; there otherwise exists zero ingrained, objective priority to cover one group of Smash subjects better than another. (Name one besides "characters are playable and I relate to them more than to an inanimate object".) The proposals that aimed to restrict information on stages, trophies and the whole shebang had too many options, and Smash coverage is already contentious as it is, so it's not difficult to see why these proposals had users pulling in different directions, yet those subjects should definitely be revisited ''especially'' if this proposal, by a miracle, succeeds. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 08:54, January 24, 2023 (EST)


Unlike crossovers where ''Mario'' franchise makes up a very large portion of the game, such as ''Sonic'' or ''Fortune Street'', ''Smash'' should be covered as a guest appearance. There is no reason why a series with countless franchises put together should be covered in full. Mario elements deserve pages, I don't understand why we should bother with the rest. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:06, January 24, 2023 (EST)
===Create <nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{fake link|DLC infobox|Template:DLC infobox}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki> template===
:Not sure if treating Smash as a guest appearance is optimal, but I agree on maintaining a differentiation between it and other crossover situations. Hewer, respectfully, did you even read the coverage policy before bringing it up? It says right there that Smash Bros. is an exceptional type of crossover, as it's marketed as "many franchises coming together" rather than "Mario and then something else". Thus, quote, "pages for the [Smash] series are decided on a more particular basis", different from the treatment of other crossover titles. Your vote, and Killer Moth's for that matter, are based on wrong premises. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:20, January 24, 2023 (EST)
The ''Super Mario'' DLC articles are missing a <code><nowiki>{{</nowiki>{{fake link|DLC infobox|Template:DLC infobox}}<nowiki>}}</nowiki></code> template. I was just wondering if there's a possibility to create the <code><nowiki>{{DLC infobox}}</nowiki></code> template. The following parameters are as follows:
::You misunderstood my point (though it is my fault for not explaining it better). "should be covered as a guest appearance" does not imply "should be classified as a guest appearance". ''Smash Bros.'' as a crossover should only have in-depth (key word is in-depth, lists are a perfectly fine compromise) coverage of ''Mario'' elements and the rest is unneeded. I know coverage policy well, thanks. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:28, January 24, 2023 (EST)
:::I was addressing Hewer with the part of my message that concerned the policy, not you. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:44, January 24, 2023 (EST)
::::I apologize for being an idiot. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 15:11, January 24, 2023 (EST)
::Ok, sorry for having worded my vote badly, but what I was trying to say is that if we're doing things like this to our Smash coverage I think we should first revise the coverage policy as a whole because I don't think it's consistent to give subjects only related to Mario via Smash less importance on the wiki than subjects only related to Mario via other crossovers. For example, [[Sticks the Badger]] and [[Incineroar]] really have the same amount of relevance to Mario as each other, both being characters we only cover because they were playable in crossovers with a lot of Mario content, and I don't think the proportion of Mario content in each crossover is a good reason to treat these otherwise virtually identical cases differently to each other. Yes, there are a lot more other franchises in Smash than in those smaller crossovers, but there is still a very large amount of Mario content in Smash probably comparable to the amount in those other crossovers even if the proportion may be very different. I'm aware the coverage policy says Smash is something of a special case but I personally don't think that exception should be taken to this much of an extreme in trying to have our cake and eat it too. I've reworded parts of my vote to hopefully be more clear. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:11, January 24, 2023 (EST)
:::You excuse yourself for having worded your vote badly, then proceed to restate the very same wrong premise you went with originally. The policy already makes a distinction between Smash and crossovers like Mario & Sonic, and that's because, again, Smash isn't billed as "Mario + other franchises", which would give it the privileges of a ''Mario'' game proper, it's "this, and this, and this franchise all coming together (and Mario just happens to be there)", something that hasn't actually been tried in any other Nintendo propriety. [Late Edit: And as Somethingone states, Smash Bros. is more of a franchise of its own, it isn’t claimed by any one franchise represented in it; heck, the first game wasn’t even originally conceived with an all-star Nintendo cast.] No, the argument that Mario is disproportionally represented doesn't hold water, that's yet another metric powered by subjectivity and is easily dispelled by the aforementioned fact. Besides, whether the changes proposed here should extend to coverage of the other crossover games is up for another discussion, ''not this one'', because it would entail an overhaul of policies that currently operate separate from each other. The fact that the opposition knowingly ignores this just reeks of bad faith. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:08, January 26, 2023 (EST)


<tt>*</tt>I will say one criticism to the proposer though; if you are going to merge the fighters, then you ''reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally'' should have done the same with the stages as well, as they have the same treatment as fighters but a lower degree of importance. I still support this proposal, but if it passes it means that this wiki will be treated inanimate, generic floors with a 3D background as more important than the characters you play as, which I guess is kind of a thing this wiki has as a whole for any game. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 17:21, January 26, 2023 (EST)
*<code>name</code> - The name of the DLC (italics are optional).
:A similar proposal will be made to account for the stages, provided this one passes. Playable characters don’t have any perceived importance over stages; both of these groups are gameplay features added consciously and with a clear goal. Obviously, in game design, you have to establish a hierarchy between the player and the elements in their environment, but that has no bearing on the fashion these subjects are documented on a wiki at all. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:14, January 26, 2023 (EST)
*<code>image</code> - Image(s) of the topic.
*<code>game</code> - The game(s) the DLC applies to.
*<code>release</code> - The release date of DLC in all regions (use the <code>{{tem|release}}</code> template).
*<code>languages</code> - The languages the DLC is playable in (use the <code>{{tem|languages}}</code> template).
*<code>cost</code> - The cost date of DLC in all regions (use the <code>{{tem|release}}</code> template).
*<code>platforms</code> - The platforms that the DLC has been released on.
*<code>content</code> - A brief summary of the content in the DLC.
*<code>related</code> - Any subjects related to the DLC.


===Merge "Yoshi (platform series)" and "Yoshi (puzzle series)" into "Yoshi (franchise)"===
Once this proposal passes, the we'll be able to put the infobox on [[Mercedes-Benz x Mario Kart 8|Mercedes-Benz × ''Mario Kart 8'']], [[The Legend of Zelda x Mario Kart 8|''The Legend of Zelda'' × ''Mario Kart 8'']], [[Animal Crossing x Mario Kart 8|''Animal Crossing'' × ''Mario Kart 8'']], [[Donkey Kong Adventure]], the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass]]'', [[The Tower of Doooom]], [[The Last Spark Hunter]], and [[Rayman in the Phantom Show]].
My last proposal has been declined, so [[User:Hewer|Hewer]] is right—a better idea will be to just merge both the "Yoshi (platform series)" and "Yoshi (puzzle series)" articles with the main "Yoshi (franchise)" article since the former is quite unclearly defined and movinf the latter to "Yoshi (series)" is a bad idea because that's easily confused with "Yoshi (franchise)".


'''Proposer''': {{User|Teh Other}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBayBeee}}<br>
'''Deadline''': February 2, 2023, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': May 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Merge====
====Support====
#{{User|Teh Other}} Per proposal
#{{User|GuntherBayBeee}} Per proposal
#{{User|Scrooge200}} I've always found it strange that these don't already have an infobox. Considering DLC for ''Mario'' games is getting more common lately, it definitely has a use.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Honestly, we're surprised this hasn't been created sooner with the absolute ''deluge'' of DLC ''Mario Kart 8'' has received across literally multiple consoles, running the gambit from the Mercedes-Benz crossover to the Booster Course Pack. And if that wasn't enough, the Rabbids games' DLC campaigns show this isn't even just a Mario Kart 8-only thing. (We have a bit more to say, but we'll leave that to comments.)
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} This was something I thought of a while back as well. Just not sure how "related" would work.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.


====Leave the way they are====
====Oppose====
 
====Comments====
Depending on how you choose to define "DLC", we think you could even throw in a few other things as well. Admittedly, the [[:Category:Downloadable content|DLC category]] is a little muddied at the moment with... <small>mumble grumble...</small> smash redirects, so we couldn't get the best look at this hour, but from what we saw, you could even throw in those [[Coin Rush]] packs pretty easily. We think the only real exception is ''[[New Super Luigi U]]'', since that one technically did see a standalone release without the game it's DLC for, meaning we already use the game infobox for that one. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 01:58, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
 
===Split the Super Mario universe and the Paper Mario universe===
I think the articles about the Super Mario universe (characters, levels, worlds, etc.) should be split between the Super Mario uiverse and the Paper Mario universe. As those are 2 different universes. This is confirmed in Mario & Luigi Paper Jam for Nintendo 3DS. Also in Super Paper Mario, there is a wedding scence with Mario, Bowser & Peach in the Paper Mario universe. In the Super Mario universe there's a wedding scene in Super Mario Odyssey. Kamek and Bowser Jr. appear for the first time in the Paper Mario verse in Paper Mario: Sticker Star. In the Super Mario universe they appear earlier. Bowser Jr. in Super Mario Sunshine and Kamek in Yoshi's Island. For example there would be an article about Mario and a seperate article about Paper Mario from the Paper Mario series. This would be a pretty big, important change for this wiki, to be even better, more accurate. And I think that's what matters. To make the Super Mario wiki more organiced and easier to use for Mario Fans. Thanks!
 
'''Proposer''': {{User|Big Super Mario Fan}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 19, 2024, 23:59
 
====Support====
#{{User|Big Super Mario Fan}} Per my proposal.
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|the proposal that split the Paper Jam characters]] and my comments [[Talk:Paper Mario (series)#Paper Mario Universe|here]]. I will also again point out [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]].
#{{User|Hewer}} Paper Jam does not confirm that the Paper Mario games happened in a different universe, it merely confirms that there is another universe with paper versions of the characters based on those from Paper Mario. To extrapolate from that that Paper Mario and everything else are set in different universes is a forbidden speculative reading between the lines, as described in [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]] and [[MarioWiki:Chronology]]. This would very much not make the wiki "more organiced and easier to use", but rather be perhaps the biggest organisational disaster to ever befall the wiki.


====Comments====
====Comments====

Latest revision as of 08:58, May 12, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Sunday, May 12th, 12:58 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option on proposals with more than two choices.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)
Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)
Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)
Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)
Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)
Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)
Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Create The Cutting Room Floor link template, Bro Hammer (ended May 7, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)
Merge Start Dash with Rocket Start, Koopa con Carne (ended August 17, 2023)
Use italics for the full title of the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass, Hewer (ended September 15, 2023)
Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Decide which series certain Yoshi games are related to, GuntherBB (ended December 14, 2023)
Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)
Replace "List of Game Over screens" and "'Game Over' as death" sections with a "History" section, DrippingYellow (ended December 20, 2023)
Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)
Make major changes to the MarioWiki:Links page, PnnyCrygr (ended January 10, 2024)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)
Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)
Merge Masterpieces to the Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U articles, Camwoodstock (ended March 31, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Rename Beanstalk to Vine, DrippingYellow (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)
Merge Party Ball (item) with Party Ball, GuntherBayBee (ended May 5, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages

Recently, a (completely undiscussed) amendment was made to the naming system making it so quote-unquote "derived names" - as in, standard conjectural names made by cut-n-pasting descriptors from similar entities - have priority over official names from other languages (particularly the games' language of origin, which for this franchise is usually Japanese). While allowing said "derived names" as conjecture makes sense, it comes with several pitfalls, and my main concern is it is turning into a slippery slope. Much of it is discussed on the talk page for the so-called "Hefty Goombrat," which is a sterling example of why this was not a good idea. I have also been recently seeing cases of people moving to subjects based on objects sharing some adjective with a random obscure object in the same game, as demonstrated here. To be blunt, this was a short-sighted idea (and more than likely, simply a failed experiment) and needs cut back to a reasonable level before it gets out of hand. For the record, I am favor of letting it stay when the only indications in other languages or file names or what-have-you are generic terms rather than clear "names," for instance when the only confirmed name for Shoot was just "jugador de futbol," as well as rewording clunky generic descriptors like "vehicle with surfboard."

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, these names are conjectural and shouldn't be unduly given more weight than their fellow conjectural names.
  3. Koopa con Carne (talk) Might just be me but I'd rather not have a policy that specifically states "if you don't like this official name, just completely ignore it and make up something wacky instead" because that's not what this site is even remotely about
  4. Axis (talk) Per all.
  5. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal. While some of these derived names are fine and it's sensible to have this as an option, it shouldn't take priority over an official name when one exists.
  6. Camwoodstock (talk) ...Okay, yeah, KCC makes a good point we didn't think of, so, surprise! We're changing our vote! Conjectural names have their place, but we really shouldn't prioritize them over actual names if they exist.
  7. LinkTheLefty (talk) I'm pretty sure this all started here, and...yeah, in practice, conjectural exceptions bloat the elegant naming policy. Plus, this is practically begging to have more "Fire Nipper Plant"-esque situations.
  8. Blinker (talk) Per all.
  9. Somethingone (talk) Per the arguments raised above.
  10. Metalex123 (talk) Per all.
  11. Super Mario RPG (talk) Official names are official, whether it's English, Japanese, Spanish, and so forth.
  12. DrippingYellow (talk) Actually, my position didn't make much sense. If some enemies are OK to have their Japanese name, then why not all enemies without a proper English name? And KCC brought up a good point about redirects. I wouldn't be opposed to using derived names as just redirects, since redirects show up in the search bar alongside actual articles, basically removing the "searchability" issue.
  13. Mushzoom (talk) Per all.
  14. Jazama (talk) Per all
  15. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Doc in the comments. If there's an official name, there's an official name, and we shouldn't just ignore it.

Oppose

  1. Archivist Toadette (talk) While I agree that some discussions may need to be made on what counts as derived conjecture and what doesn't, a flat-out repeal is not the way to go about this. Plus, some of these derived conjecture names are completely straightforward (such as "Fire Spike" or "Wonder Hoppycat"), as in we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) The only problem with this policy is that it's being applied in cases and/or ways that it shouldn't be (I personally think Hefty Goombrat was a step too far). If it's kept to reasonable use like the examples Archivist Toadette gave, it's fine. No need to repeal the entire thing.
  3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per opposition.
  4. Hooded Pitohui (talk) Per Archivist Toadette, really. To me, it does seem greater caution and discussion on these derived names is warranted, but a case-by-case approach seems more useful here than a flat-out repeal. I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here, tossing away something that's generally beneficial to readers in the process of correcting a few cases where this has been misapplied.
  5. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
  6. Shoey (talk) Per all.
  7. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per all of yall (collectively)
  8. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  9. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
  10. Mario (talk) Not a good idea.

#Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We really ought to be handling poor names born from this policy on a case-by-case basis, rather than nixing the policy altogether and potentially causing more harm than good.
#DrippingYellow (talk) I seriously fail to see how this is a problem. If you have a Japanese noun that has had a direct, consistent translation across multiple pieces of English Mario media (i.e. gabon to Spike, kakibo to Goombrat, deka to "Big" enemies, admittedly kodeka for "Hefty" enemies is pushing it since we really only have Hefty Goombas as an official translation), then the way I see it this replacement of terms is no different than how we've been treating internal names. We already have a rule on not "partially translating" names, so I'd maybe expand on that to prohibit creating translations for words that don't have a consistent translation across games, but I wouldn't get rid of the derived name rule altogether. (i.e. Sensuikan Heihō does not become "Submarine Shy Guy" or even "Sensuikan Shy Guy")

Comments

@Opposition I did say in the last sentence that this isn't removing it completely, just changing its position in the "acceptable naming" hierarchy. The reason I said "repeal" is an incarnation of it existed before for generic-borne titles and I am trying to go back to that as - unlike the current iteration - it isn't just begging to be misused. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I guess the best way to put it is this: if an official name that is a name exists, period, there is no excuse whatsoever for there to be a "conjecture" template of any sort. That's not hypothesizing, that's ignoring, and to be frank is a grotesque perversion of the policies this site has had for decades that have not caused any harm whatsoever - meanwhile, these have plenty of potential for misleading people. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Then what about the examples I brought up? Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 07:30, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
What about them? They have official names, but the wiki opts to give them explicitly conjectural ones because apparently a couple of sysops thought so. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 07:33, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I still find the idea that these names are "conjectural" to be kind of weird, if that's the big hang-up here. If we can already take some liberties with Japanese titles I don't see why we can't just look at something and say "oh, this is literally Goomba's Japanese name, let's just call it Goomba", especially when the name is partially English already. That's just doing some simple translation, not really making conjectural names? I'm speaking as someone with no background in translation, mind you, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Conjecture occurs when you're presuming something to be the case in the absence of hard facts. Archive Toadette states in his vote that "we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject". "Assume". That's the thrust of this policy: assumption. Which is pretty much synonymous with conjecture, and some editors are taking issue with prioritizing that over official names. Regarding the liberties on Japanese names, there's nothing conjectural about adapting something like Sunaipā to "Sniper", because it's literally the word's Japanese transliteration--the romanization reflects how the word sounds when converted to Japanese writing. Note how that policy states that instances of "Kuppa" should be adapted to "Koopa", and not "Bowser", even though that's his Japanese name. "Kuribo" wouldn't be adapted to "Goomba" in article titles because that's not a transliteration, that a compound of actual Japanese morphemes. The basis of the Japanese naming policy isn't the same as that of the conjectural naming policy. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:43, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

@Hooded Pitohui: Could you be more specific on what is or isn't acceptable? Because I'm kind of struggling to picture any time these conjectural names should have priority over an actual official name, or what would make that case different to others (note that they'd still take priority over filenames per the proposal). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:01, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I think it may be helpful to start with a disclaimer and an acknowledgement of where I'm coming from in casting a vote. I'm a very infrequent, casual editor on the wiki side of things, so when I do wade into these proposals on the intricacies of the wiki's policies on naming or classification or scope of coverage, I don't often have a large repository of examples to draw upon, and rarely am I able (or attempting to) make any kind of case or argument. Generally, I'm entering these discussions from the perspective of a reader/user of the wiki first, and casual contributor second, and generally my votes are going to be informed by that perspective, so I apologize if this seems a bit broad and dealing in hypotheticals. For me, I'd think anything that's a straight localization of a recurring, official enemy/item/what have you is acceptable, and more adjectival/descriptive parts of a name or a name of something that hasn't really had a localization established is not. To use the cited Hefty Goombrat example, "Hefty" probably shouldn't have been conjecturally localized, but a Goombrat is pretty clearly a Goombrat, so conjecturally localizing that part seems fine to me. If, I don't know, Nintendo introduces a Lakitu that throws fireballs down that become Firesnakes, and it's called "[something] Jugem" officially in Japanese material, again, I think we leave the descriptive part as-is because there's no clear precedent, but we know a "Jugem/Jugemu" is consistently localized as Lakitu, so we might as well localize that because an average reader will recognize "Lakitu" quickly. Meanwhile, if we just got, say, a generic cloud spitting fireballs with the same behavior, I'd say we'd be wise not to do a conjectural localization because there's not clear precedent for what that'd get localized as. Of course, even always following really clear, solid precedent, we might get it wrong occasionally, especially if Nintendo decides to rename a recurring enemy at some point, but it's a wiki, information is constantly getting updated, renamed, and reevaluated anyway. Hope that helps explain my reasoning a bit better! Hooded Pitohui (talk) 13:26, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
Slippiest of slippery slopes. Just use redirects if you expect casual readers to look up for a thing more intuitively than how it's been officially presented. There's no need to compromise encyclopedic integrity to cater to what readers expect to see. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:06, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

For the record, this isn't a talk page proposal, so I think the deadline for this proposal should be May 6. Unless there was a statement of "you can make the proposals two weeks long if you want" that I missed in the rules, which is entirely possible. DrippingYellow (talk) 19:21, May 1, 2024 (EDT)

Writing Guideline proposals also last two weeks, like TPPs. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Robin's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
Oh, I didn't notice that in the rules. I guess that makes sense. DrippingYellow (talk) 11:30, May 2, 2024 (EDT)

New features

None at the moment.

Removals

Trim Mario Kart course galleries of excess Tour stuff

Take a look at the gallery section of any Mario Kart race course that has been featured in Mario Kart Tour, and you will find the majority of the gallery is filled with a ton of mostly-identical images of the course "icons" with various playable characters superimposed on them. Why? Why is this necessary, what positive purpose does this provide to the reader? Take Wii Mushroom Gorge for example. The gallery contains seventeen duplicates of the same three screenshots of the course, each with a different stock artwork of a character on top of it. SNES Mario Circuit 1 has thirty of them. Tour New York Minute has forty-five, which probably contributed to the page lagging as it loaded for me. This is really excessive and they don't need to be there. Nothing is gained by the reader from seeing the same screenshot with a different stock artwork over them. I propose we remove these and only leave ONE version of each icon. (IE for Mushroom Gorge, only three four icons would remain)

Proposer: Shadow2 (talk)
Deadline: May 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Shadow2 (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Ahemtoday (talk) Unpopular, but I'm backing this. I really don't see what these images accomplish that, say, a textual list of characters that have been pictured on the course icon couldn't. And when I say that out loud, it sounds like unusefully nitpicky information to include, so I'm really not sure why we're dedicating swathes of the gallery to it. To be honest, if we can get the course icons with no character on them whatsoever, I'd rather put those on the pages than just picking one of the character course icons.

#Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal--these icons are already on the tour articles where they're relevant, so having all of these variations on the courses' galleries is a bit overkill. It'd be one thing if they were in a gallery subpage, but just on the articles itself...?

Oppose

  1. Hewer (talk) What? It's relevant information that has every reason to be there, it not being that interesting to most is a very bad reason to single it out and remove it at the expense of the wiki's comprehensiveness, and I have no idea what the problem is with galleries having all the relevant images. Removing stuff just because you aren't interested in it feels short-sighted and way too slippery a slope.
  2. Koopa con Carne (talk) They're relevant to their pages. I don't think it's the fan encyclopedia that should take the blame for their excessiveness.
  3. JanMisali (talk) Per all. If there's too many images in the gallery, that's what making a gallery subpage is for.
  4. Super Mario RPG (talk) I don't see any reason why the images shouldn't stay.
  5. Arend (talk) A gallery is the best place for preserving images like these. That Nintendo made an excessive amount of course icon variants that each feature a different (compatible) character, is not our fault.
  6. Jazama (talk) Per all
  7. Axis (talk) Per Hewer
  8. ExoRosalina (talk) Per all, but that was a very bad idea for that.

Comments

Changing our vote to an abstain, and figure we should ask--would it be too much to ask for a move to make gallery subpages/split these off to those over a full removal from the galleries? We don't think these should be anywhere near the main article, but we do think that a gallery subpage is a perfect fit. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 15:58, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

What's wrong with them being on the main page, exactly? I feel like separate gallery pages for them would probably be a bit too small to be tenable, and I'm unsure what harm they're doing being treated like all the other images. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 17:44, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
Mainly performance, as the original proposal briefly mentioned--Tour New York Minute's excessive number of these icons caused our Firefox to genuinely lag upon loading that article. When it gets to the point where an article starts to have a noticeable pause in loading in because of the size of the gallery, we think it's only fair to at least consider moving the bulk of the images to a gallery subpage. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:59, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
Fair enough, but it ought to still be on a case-by-case basis. New York Minute could be argued to have a problem, but that's probably more because of how many variants it's got (between 1, 2, 3, 4, and the R, T, and R/T versions of each, plus B), and other courses seem to have more reasonable numbers, like GBA Peach Circuit's eight. So I don't think they all need to get their galleries split necessarily (not sure what the cutoff point would be though). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 20:21, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
Yeah, some articles definitely don't have it as bad when it comes to these icons causing loading problems. Still, we should probably be less afraid to split off track galleries if they get quite that large in the future--though, that statement is bordering on being unrelated to this proposal entirely, so... Make of that what you will, we suppose? ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 21:02, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

"(IE for Mushroom Gorge, only three icons would remain)"
Why only three? Doesn't Mushroom Gorge have four versions (normal, R, T, and R/T), like (almost) every other course in Mario Kart Tour? And I wouldn't know which one you want to leave out: we've got to keep at least one version of the normal variant, R versions and T versions are somewhat on the same level, and not only is R/T the most different out of all of them, but there's only one icon for that one too. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 18:01, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

Oh, I may have made a mistake there. But yes, the point would be for one icon for each course. Shadow2 (talk) 21:30, May 11, 2024 (EDT)
As Arend (talk) said, I am inclined to agree with the proposal if it is changed so that we keep one icon for each version of a course. Additionally, I'd like some clarification on where the cut images would go, as I don't want them to just be lost in the depths of the Wiki. — Lady Sophie Wiggler Sophie.png (T|C) 20:49, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer @Koopa con Carne , what exactly is the "relevant information" being presented to the reader? "This image has Mario on it, this one is the exact same but it has Luigi on it." Okay? What's the point? To me, this is on a similar level to uploading every individual sprite in Mario's walk cycle. They're different, they're from the game, but they're not important enough on their own to convey any useful information to the reader, compared to actual screenshots which DO present useful information. Shadow2 (talk) 21:30, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

That's still information, and as I said in my vote, "I don't like this information and find it boring so let's just remove it" is an extremely slippery slope and goes against the point of the site as being a comprehensive encyclopedia about the franchise. Who are we to decide what's "useful information to the reader"? Someone might well be curious to know what characters were used for Yoshi Circuit's icons, I don't think it's that unreasonable. For the Mario walking sprite thing, we've got GIFs to accomplish that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:32, May 12, 2024 (EDT)
The Mushroom Gorge icons are relevant to the Mushroom Gorge article because they are Mushroom Gorge icons. 🧐 -- KOOPA CON CARNE 05:37, May 12, 2024 (EDT)

Changes

Non-standardize franchise sub-headings in History sections

This proposal aims to non-standardize -- not outright forbid or penalize -- the use of "franchise" subheadings under History. In other words, should this pass, if someone gets rid of franchise sub-headings in favor of series or standalone game sub-headings, someone is not allowed to revert it and must leave it as-is. Otherwise, users are allowed to add the sections at their discretion. Think of it like the Cite template, which is standardized but not required.

I never understood the need for the franchise subheadings (with three equals signs), since it just adds an unnecessary extra heading in the page text. It's like if we had a "Super Mario franchise" section and began listing various subsections under it. The points I'm making below may digress from the proposal, but could provide insight as to why I think it muddies the waters too much by giving individual franchise sections.

I feel that it shouldn't be this wiki's job to decide which game goes into what franchise. To give some examples, Nintendo has not taken the effort to, let's say, classify Yoshi's Safari as a Yoshi game on par with the Yoshi's Island series, and I haven't seen Wario's Woods being listed among the likes of Wario Land series, not to mention Wario is the main antagonist of Wario's Woods, despite his name in the title (though could similarly be said about DK arcade game). And Mario vs. Donkey Kong could either be a Super Mario game, since it stars Mario, or a Donkey Kong game, but I'm more inclined toward the former, since all the sequels (minus the Switch remake) do not retain any elements from the Game Boy version of Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong is the consistent antagonist.

So with the examples listed, see how it kind of muddies the waters? And if future proposals or discoveries determine the games to not be part of the franchises, or the franchises themselves outright nil, then that would be numerous pages to clean up on, should the franchise sub-sections be applied to the wiki universally. Even if it may appear disjointed on some articles, the point is still that these are still Super Mario characters starring in their own games, not different than Captain Toad, Princess Peach, and Luigi's Mansion, all of which are explicitly Super Mario games but starring different characters.

In the Smash Bros. series, I am aware that Wario, Yoshi, and Donkey Kong have distinct symbols, but that could reflect their protagonist status, not their own series.

Edit: Another problem from using franchise sub-sections is that would mean game sub-sections could have five equal signs if branching off of a series subheading of a franchise sub-heading. An example of how that would look: ===Yoshi franchise=== ====Yoshi's Island series==== =====Yoshi's Island DS=====

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: May 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I cannot speak for anyone else, but I find it genuinely difficult to find topics when they are not grouped into franchise headers like this, especially for long articles, and it can be frustrating. I can understand not putting Wario Land and WarioWare titles together under a "Wario (franchise)" heading, but Yoshi's Woolly World is a Yoshi's Island game in everything but literal name, and it is unintuitive to not group it with those titles for recurring subjects. Same with Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and the other Donkey Kong platforms. Smash Bros. did not invent the idea of grouping these franchises together. Nothing is lost when these subfranchise headings are maintained - only gains for readers.
  2. JanMisali (talk) Per Nintendo101. It's unclear what benefits this would have.
  3. Arend (talk) Well, I guess I now know the truth about that oddity of this edit on the Icicle page (which is still in use btw). In essence, though, the "unnecessary" extra heading is there for organizing, so it has a purpose, and is not entirely unnecessary. If what you're proposing is exactly what you've done on the Icicle page (which is to say, not only removing the Yoshi franchise header, but also relocating the Yoshi's Crafted World section towards the bottom of the History section), it would only look disorganized (especially since, as Nintendo101 said about Woolly World, Crafted World is already super similar in gameplay to the Yoshi's Island games... as is Yoshi's Story, too, btw). In fact, such a drastic change would only make sense if we treated every game like this and have everything listed in release order regardless of other series like Mario Kart or Smash Bros.
  4. MegaBowser64 (talk)Perall!
  5. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all. This honestly feels even more cumbersome and strange than how we already do things--besides, Ctrl+F (or "Find" on mobile) generally helps if you're lost as-is.
  6. Big Super Mario Fan (talk)I'm against it. There is a Donkey Kong, Wario and Yoshi Franchise.
  7. Jazama (talk) Per all

Comments

@Nintendo101: Except the Yoshi's Woolly World is not a Yoshi's Island game, since those have Baby Mario in it, but reuses concepts from said series. And the "Donkey Kong platforms" already have two series of their own: Donkey Kong Country series and Donkey Kong Land series, and then there's the unassociated games like Donkey Kong 64 (which i used to think was a DKC game) and DK Jungle Beat Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:19, May 7, 2024 (EDT)

I would argue that Yoshi's Woolly World is a Yoshi's Island game because whether or not Baby Mario is present is completely outweighed by the games' mechanical similarities, level designs, enemies, characters, aesthetics, "game feel", and development staff. What they actually named the game doesn't matter. But that is admittedly my subjective interpretation.
What is not subjective is that Woolly World (in addition to Yoshi's Story, Crafted World) has significantly more in common with the traditionally-recognized Yoshi's Island games than they do to the majority of other titles and make more intuitive sense grouped together. Additionally, we have a dedicated Yoshi franchise article and framing on the wiki (i.e. articles on the Yoshi platformers are generally structured similarly and have comparable heading colors). It does not make sense why that classification is okay in one context, but not for the spaces that really matter - articles on recurring subjects that would legitimately benefit from subdivisions. I maintain the same position for Donkey Kong and Wario titles, as I would for Mario Party and Mario Kart. - Nintendo101 (talk) 19:32, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
Then there's the Yoshi, Yoshi's Cookie, and Tetris Attack puzzle games, supposedly with the Yoshi branding, though I think the former two are Super Mario games with Yoshi as a mascot. Throwing all of that under a "Yoshi franchise" heading would be an example of muddying the waters, with both platforming and puzzle games mixed together. The "comparable" heading colors could basically apply to the Super Mario franchise, which is associated with the color red, like Mario's shirt and hat.
Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Woolly World, and Yoshi's Crafted World not being part of an explicitly defined Yoshi platforming series isn't a fault on our part, but is rather a reflection on Nintendo. Have Super Princess Peach and Princess Peach Showtime! been confirmed to be part of the same series, or are they both "Super Mario" games starring Peach? If such two section are disjointed in an article, like Princess Peach's, because they're not in an officially defined series, that's because it's Nintendo's responsibility to define it, not ours. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:48, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
I appreciate the thoroughness of your response, but it did not address what I was trying to get at. Why can Super Mario Wiki have a Yoshi franchise article, template, and organization structure in their articles and then passively assert no such thing exists in the actual History sections for subjects? What you describe as "muddying the waters" I perceive as helpful clarity and a consistent presentation of information maintained across the wiki. That's inherently helpful for readers. It also really has not been explained to me what is improved for readers in removing subfranchise headings. I know for me personally it would make it more difficult to passively read articles or locate information, and I suspect I am not alone in that feeling. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:31, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
Because the same question could apply to why does Super Mario franchise not have its own subsection and on what grounds. The History section basically passively asserts the Super Mario franchise isn't there for the same reason. And if we're to cover like every Chain Chomp appearance in Zelda, would that get its own franchise section and subheadings? The history section in that instance would be presenting it on the same tier as Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong. Convenience isn't always an accurate reflection of the official way of sorting. One could have Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3 come after Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins in the History section, since the former literally takes place after the latter's events, or Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island after Super Mario World (or considering "Super Mario Bros. 5" was a dropped subtitle during development), but that would be negating their respective Wario Land and Yoshi's Island series. I wanted to point out that your opinion on Yoshi's Woolly World being a Yoshi's Island title could be a stretch based on personal viewpoint, but not necessarily official confirmation. Super Mario RPG (talk) 20:43, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
While it is one that I agree with and I believe it can be substantively demonstrated, I do not group Woolly World with Yoshi's Island because of a subjective interpretation. I apologize if that was the impression. It is because we currently consider them part of the Yoshi franchise on the wiki. Grouping them together under the history section is just matching what is already recognized elsewhere, and I believe it is helpful. I feel like to not group them together in the History section calls for a much wider discussion on how we should classify games on the wiki at large, and if we should be recognizing a Yoshi franchise (also a Wario, Donkey Kong, etc.) at all. But that is a departure from how things are currently recognized by the userbase.
Are the Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Wario franchises themselves not within the Super Mario franchise? I was under the impression that that was the overarching umbrella. Zelda would inherently be outside of that. - Nintendo101 (talk) 21:16, May 7, 2024 (EDT)
The three you mentioned are part of the Super Mario franchise, that's true. And Tetris Attack, a puzzle game, is as much of a Yoshi game as Super Mario World 2. Putting every game installment under a single "franchise" heading is the history sections conflating franchises with series, which i deem a problem. Why put Yoshi puzzle game, the Super Scope game Yoshi's Safari, Yoshi's Island, and miscellaneous platforming games under a single heading that makes them all seem strung together somehow? Yoshi's Woolly World is platforming, so it's closer by that merit but Yoshi (the puzzle game) is far from any sort of association to Yoshi's Island, which it predates, and is an entirely different genre. It would be inconsistent if the Super Mario franchise's series gets sub-sections but not like Yoshi's Island or Wario Land, like it's being decided subjectively of how to find information per game series. And a Donkey Kong franchise's 4-equal sign headings could theoretically look like: ====Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest====, ====Donkey Kong Land 2====, ====Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!====, since that's the chronological release order of Donkey Kong platforming games from two separate series. Or what about Wario's: WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$!, Wario World, WarioWare: Twisted! This means either way, there will be cases where things will look disjointed for varying reasons. The way History sections are sorted are not a reflection of the wiki scope. Super Mario RPG (talk) 21:52, May 7, 2024 (EDT)


The biggest issue with these franchise subheadings is that it can lead to creating a level 5 subheader in some instances and we really need to avoid this because they're increasingly more indistinguishable from text. The current method of doing it avoids this because the entities don't seem to appear in many games, so it doesn't make much sense to bar the use of it, but IMO if using franchise subheadings results in too many subheaders, avoid it. Icon showing how many lives Mario has left. From Super Mario 64 DS. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 19:25, May 8, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, this is one of the things I brought up as to why I find the franchise subheadings a problem, because it could result in the creation of the level-5 subheadings, like in an example that I listed above. Another case I'd find the franchise subheadings redundant is if there's only two releases or three releases, none from the same series, and especially if doing without the franchise subheading already shows them in chronological order. For example, Cog (obstacle) has Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Donkey Kong Country Returns listed under "Donkey Kong franchise, despite the fact that without that extra franchise subheading, they'd already be displayed together in chronological order in the history section. Super Mario RPG (talk) 19:53, May 8, 2024 (EDT)
"Gently encouraging users to avoid/minimize the use of level 5 subheaders because it is difficult to discriminate from normal text", is a world of difference from "imposing an editorial restriction on an organizational arrangement that others feel makes articles easier to read". - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:47, May 8, 2024 (EDT)
Except gears also appear in Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart 8 thanks to DS Tick-Tock Clock, the former being inbetween Jungle Beat and Country Returns (I've already added the info on the cog page). Additionally, a gear plays a prominent role in the WarioWare: Twisted! and WarioWare Gold microgame Scrambled Egg (though it does not serve as a platform there, so I was hesitant about adding that to the page). ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 06:42, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Come to think of it though, WarioWare, Inc.: Mega Microgame$! already features gears in the microgame Gear Head Fred, so if we were to include WarioWare microgames on the cog article, that section would have to come before Jungle Beat anyway. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 07:56, May 9, 2024 (EDT)

On the level 5 subheader thing: ...Can't we just change how those look via CSS shenanigans and the like? While there's definitely more eloquent ways to do it, simply giving them a slightly gray color to distinguish it from a level 4 subheader could probably resolve at least a couple of issues with them. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:17, May 9, 2024 (EDT)

I thought the argument was that the level 5 subheader wasn't that it'd look indistinguishable to the level 4 subheader, but to the article's regular text. Not that I disagree with the CSS thing though, we can make changes to it to make the level 5 subheader a tiny bit bigger... same goes for level 6 subheaders btw (yes, level 6 subheaders are a thing, and so are level 1 subheaders, see this sandbox). Not sure if it's entirely necessary to drastically change them, since level 5 subheaders are not only already a bit bigger, but also are displayed bold. It's level 6 subheaders that are displayed in the same size as the regular text, albeit in bold as well, though level 6 subheaders are rarely used, if at all. But, we could maybe change the headers' fonts to distinguish them if that's preferable over size or color changes, as the Timeless mobile skin displays all of these headers in Times New Roman. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 16:49, May 9, 2024 (EDT)

Allow separation of the Super Mario Bros. series and Super Mario series in articles

This proposal aims to allow separating the Super Mario Bros. series of side-scrolling platformers (it's official) from the Super Mario 3D series in history sections. This is based on how Nintendo sometimes treats the Super Mario Bros. series separately from the Super Mario 3D games, like from the screenshot (in-game from Super Mario Run itself), Super Mario Bros. Wonder is said to be the first Super Mario Bros. game in 11 years (referring to 2012, when New Super Mario Bros. 2 and New Super Mario Bros. U were released).

Currently, this proposal would only allow for the series to be separated in sections, not necessarily standardized, as that would depend on how the article is laid out.

The complicated part of 2012 being the cutoff before Super Mario Bros. Wonder is that would mean Super Mario Maker, its sequel, and Super Mario Run would all be disqualified from the Super Mario Bros. series. The Super Mario series is the standard/main series, and Super Mario Maker 2 has been making effort to maintain association with both the 2D and 3D series, since they have a Super Mario 3D World format. Super Mario Run is technically a game of its own, but I think the safer bet would be to keep it in Super Mario series. This proposal is to help the Super Mario BROS. games stand out and their evolution between the different sidescrolling titles.

The Super Mario name is more universal than just outside the platforming games (e.g. Super Mario Strikers, for one), and is the name and trademark of the very brand itself, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility of separate series beginning with "Super Mario", even if in this case it's referring to just the 2D and 3D games themselves.

Proposer: Super Mario RPG (talk)
Deadline: May 16, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) As proposer.

#SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Per proposal, but I have concerns about Super Mario Maker 1, 3DS,2 & Super Mario Run.

Oppose

  1. Nintendo101 (talk) I do not support severing the Super Mario Bros. series games from their sister games. In my neck of the woods, the term "clade" is widely used for taxonomic ranks that do not neatly follow the traditional Linnaean terms people learn about in high school (order, family, etc.) and unlike them, they do not denote their rank position at all. A clade can contain multiple other clades, and a clade can be contained in another clade. Unless there is a definition for "series" that I am unfamiliar with, there is no intrinsic reason why a series cannot contain multiple series or be within a series itself. The recognition of a Super Mario Bros. series does not at all indicate that they are separate from the Super Mario series, a category that has been narrowly recognized as the action platformers of the greater Super Mario franchise as recently as 2020. Unless Nintendo explicitly states that they are not siblings of the same series, I think the assertion that Super Mario Land, Super Mario 64, Super Mario Maker, and Super Mario Run are not within the same series as the original Super Mario Bros. or New Super Mario Bros. U, and that they should not be recognized together as distinct from the rest of the franchise, is unsubstantiated.
  2. JanMisali (talk) The ambiguity and inconsistency surrounding which specific games are part of the Super Mario Bros. subseries makes this less useful than it otherwise would be.
  3. Ahemtoday (talk) Per Nintendo101.
  4. Jdtendo (talk) Per Nintendo101 and JanMisali. Plus, I see no point in separating proper 2D side-scroller Mario games such as Super Mario Land 1 & 2 from an ill-defined Super Mario Bros. series on the sole basis that those games lack the word "Bros." in their title.
  5. Arend (talk) As one can see in the comments, people have vastly different views of what counts as a Super Mario Bros. game and what doesn't (e.g. Doc believes the Super Mario Land games don't count because Luigi doesn't appear in them, I think that's superficial and that the Land games should still be counted as at least related since the general gameplay is still the same otherwise). While a good idea on paper, it will lead to many arguments and disagreements until we get a definite answer from Nintendo what should count and what shouldn't... and all we get from Nintendo is that they lump every Super Mario game, from Bros to Land to 64 to Sunshine to Maker to Run to Odyssey, as part of the same series.
  6. Hewer (talk) Per all, especially the fact that the Super Mario Bros. series is a subset of the Super Mario series anyway. If we separated SMB as its own thing, wouldn't that be implying the Super Mario series only contains 3D games and miscellanea like Maker? Because that's certainly not the case.
  7. Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, and also the mere fact that jan Misali did in fact make a 40+ minute video on roughly this same subject, juxtaposed with the comments below. This would be an extremely strange thing to try to enforce when there's no fewer than 4 major standards for what even counts as a Super Mario game, and one of them is literally our own.
  8. Scrooge200 (talk) How do we know what's mainline? Everything is senseless 'cause there's no consensus. Opening us up to even more inconsistency would just make it harder to navigate and lead to pointless back-and-forth edits on what goes where.
  9. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) While it is a good idea, there's just too many unanswered questions. So sorry, but I have to change to oppose.
  10. Jazama (talk) Per all.

Comments

@SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA): I addressed some of the concerns about the Mario Maker (which implements 3D World in a sidescrolling format) and Run titles. Should this pass, it could be a step toward a different proposal reconsidering their respective association to the Super Mario series. This is just the starting point. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:18, May 9, 2024 (EDT)

True, but only Mario Maker 2 implemented 3D World, and Run, from experience, has all the hallmarks of a NSMB game, whereas the Mario Maker games COULD be seen as related to the NSMB games due to having NSMBU as a game style, although they are a part of the same series as SMB, SMB3, & SMW. Otherwise that helps. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Basically, it's on Nintendo to sort this out, not us. We're just reflecting what the official sources say, in spite of any discrepancies that may occur. "Related" wouldn't mean putting it under the same heading (check here, for instance, has Captain Toad, Super Mario World 2, Wario Land: Super Mario Land 3. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:25, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
And the official sources say this. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
We already had a proposal reconsidering their respective association to the Super Mario series somewhat recently, and it failed. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

I don't think it should be "separated" so much as covered in both places. I have a skeleton for the SMB series here and one for the 3D series here. Land and Maker are additional subseries, while Run is its own thing. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:28, May 9, 2024 (EDT)

The user subpages of those two series only add to the point why I think the section sorting is worth reconsidering, and that some disjointment on Nintendo's part shouldn't be a disqualifier to separating the 2D and 3D series. Super Mario RPG (talk) 14:32, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Look, my WIP Super Mario (franchise) rework does have 2D-3D seperation, but it's WIP, so it's not finished. It only so far has Mario Bros., Super Mario (series), & Wrecking Crew, but the Super Mario (series) bit is basically my main focus. I have Super Mario (series) into 2 sub-series based on the 2D-3D stuff and their shared names (no, the argument that the Super Mario name is the same for the 2D & 3D games doesn't work because the 2D games share the same Super Mario Bros. name, which I use for the 2D sub-series), while also splitting 2 sub-sub-series, Super Mario Land (because of the old ambiguity, the fact of a different shared name, Wario Land series, etc.) & NSMB (Different style from other games yet consistent within itself, objects from DS existing in Wii, DS & Wii objects existing in U, etc.). I could go on, but I don't want to bore anyone more than I probably already have. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:49, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Super Mario Land can't be a sub-series of Bros. because there's no "bros" in it, it's just Mario. (Granted, the same can be said about Special, but it's a blatant retool of SMB assets so it gets a pass.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:53, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Uhh, I listed it as a sub-series of Bros because it was listed with the Bros. games in the 30th anniversary celebration and onward. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:54, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Except that list wasn't referred to as "Super Mario Bros. games," that list was labeled "some 2D games Mario has appeared in." (It also missed a few, like NSMB2.) Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:58, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
(facepalm) No, not THAT list. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:11, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Then what list? Care to link or show an image? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:30, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Look here. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 19:24, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
That list includes the 3D platformers too. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 19:41, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
So? It shows that the Maker games & Run are part of the same series as SMB, SMW & NSMB. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 19:53, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
So this is not an example of an official source classifying the games in the same way this proposal suggests. The fact that this list includes Super Mario Land does not demonstrate that Super Mario Land is part of a specific subset of Super Mario games that includes Super Mario Bros. and excludes Super Mario 64. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 19:58, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
No, but it proves my main point. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 20:01, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
It proves that Super Mario Land is a mainline game, but that wasn't under question. The thing that was asked was why your list of Super Mario Bros. games, as a separate subseries, includes the Super Mario Land games as a sub-subseries. This source could also justify classifying the 3D games as a sub-subseries of the Super Mario Bros. subseries for exactly the same reason. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 20:05, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Ok. 1. this lists the Super Mario (Bros.) series. 2. The Super Mario sub-series (3D games) ARE listed here, but are separate due to recent official stuff. 3. The Super Mario Land games are listed as a sub-series to the Super Mario Bros. series (2D games) because, despite the different shared names, which are a reason of them being a sub-sub-series, ARE Super Mario Bros. games. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 20:14, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
The Super Mario Run notification is very specific in how it phrases its statement. Super Mario Bros. Wonder is the first "side-scrolling entry" in the Super Mario Bros. series in 11 years. That specificity means that there could be entries in the Super Mario Bros. series which are not side-scrolling games, because otherwise there'd by no reason to specifically say "last side-scrolling entry". I believe these sources taken together could imply that at least some of the 3D games are Super Mario Bros. games, and that using "Super Mario Bros. subseries" to refer to the 2D platformers is not helpful. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 20:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
They are not "Super Mario Bros." games, Luigi isn't in them. Hard to be "Bros." without the Bros. (Though again, Special is the exception due to its watered-down nature). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:21, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Luigi is only in the (early) Super Mario Bros. games because of the 2-player mode. If Super Mario Land and Super Mario Land 2 had the possibility of a 2-player mode, then Luigi would obviously be added in those games (we know that Nintendo tried adding Luigi in Super Mario 64 but scrapped it due to difficulties with adding multiplayer). If we had to hard-gatekeep the Mario Land games out of the Super Mario Bros. subseries (even as a spinoff to it like Super Mario Maker and Super Mario Run, then logically, we should do the same with New Super Luigi U, which features no Mario at all (and since New Super Luigi U has been released at one point as a standalone game, and we've been counting campaigns like Bowser's Fury as official entries, I think that should count).
To me, I think we should view the Land games, the Maker games, and Run at least as related games to the Bros. titles, since they feature basically the exact same kind of gameplay as any other Super Mario Bros. title. Hell, Super Mario Bros. 2, the USA version, is more different than Land 1 in terms of gameplay, yet we're counting it as an official entry. I don't think the Land games should be exempt purely because of something as superficial as "there's no Luigi in it". ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 06:14, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I mean, by virtue of all those games being Super Mario games, they (along with the 3D games) should be "related" to the Super Mario Bros. series by default, right? To distinguish "related" beyond that, deciding if a game is "related" to a subseries that it shares a larger series with anyway, feels a bit hair-splitting. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
The notification does also specifically say that Super Mario Bros. is a "series of side-scrolling action games", so to then say afterwards that Super Mario Bros. Wonder is the first side-scrolling game in 11 years... I feel like their intent is pretty obvious here. I was an SMB series doubter for the longest time, but first with that quote in one of the interviews leading up to Wonder, and now with this notification in-game in Super Mario Run, it's definitely giving the impression that Nintendo considers Super Mario Bros. a sub-series. DrippingYellow (talk) 21:26, May 9, 2024 (EDT)
Well, it said "side-scrolling" games, & Maker is a game-maker game, while Run is like one of those auto levels but you have some control, so at that point we'll need at least one extra layer. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:25, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Maker and Run both have cameras that scroll to the side. That's the literal definition of "side-scrolling game". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:51, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
(facepalm) It said "side-scrolling action games", which, yes, Maker & Run fit in, but both Maker & Run also fit under other categories, whilst this notification only specifies side-scrolling action games, NOT other categories of games OR games that mix categories (like Maker & Run). SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 10:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
But you admit that Run and Maker also fit the definition of "side-scrolling action games". Your idea that the classification excludes "games that mix categories" is not supported at all by the text of the notification. By that logic, would the minigames included in New Super Mario Bros. somehow disqualify it from the series too? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:35, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
No, because NSMB's minigames are not the main game. Maker being a game-maker game AND a side-scrolling game, or Run being an "automatic movement with some control" game, ARE the main game. The text of the notification ONLY says "side scrolling action game", but not anything else in terms of type of game. And I never said anything about games being disqualified, because of other official sources including games like NSMB, Maker, etc. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Indeed, the notification only says "side-scrolling action games", not "side-scrolling action games except those that also feature other elements". Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Has anyone considered that the reason they stated that "Super Mario Bros. Wonder is the first side-scrolling entry in the Super Mario Bros. series in 11 years", because they may consider Super Mario Run and the Super Mario Maker games as spinoffs to the Super Mario Bros. series? I mean, for comparison, Mario Party: The Top 100 and Mario Party Superstars only includes information from Mario Party 1-10, leaving out Mario Party Advance, Mario Party DS, Mario Party: Island Tour, Mario Party: Star Rush, and in Superstars's case, Super Mario Party; but these are all undoubtedly Mario Party games as well, with DS and Super in particular featuring the same basic gameplay as the first eight Mario Party titles. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 10:07, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Well, Super Mario Bros. for NES is the first game in both the Super Mario Bros. series and the broader Super Mario series, so anything only in the latter would be a "spinoff" of the former anyway, right? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:16, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer That's one of the things I used for my Super Mario (series) sub-series split. Also, I don't think that this will affect Maker and Run's mainline status. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 10:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

I don't understand what you mean. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:48, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
You brought up this (which the second part of my reply was directed to), & as for the 1st part, I don't really remember what that was supposed to be directed to. Seems to be directed to one of the various things you said here, but it could've been for someone else. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
For the second part, I'm aware this proposal won't directly affect Maker and Run's mainline status, but Super Mario RPG said that this "could be a step toward a different proposal reconsidering their respective association to the Super Mario series", which is why I brought up that past proposal that tried to do exactly that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:04, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

"Anything only in the latter would be a "spinoff" of the former anyway, right?" By that logic, with the Mario Bros. beginning both the Mario Bros. series and the greater Mario franchise, shouldn't the entire mainline Mario series, being a "spinoff" of Mario Bros., all be merged under one "Mario (mainline series)" header? Not only is that an organizational mess, but Nintendo has never treated it as being such.
While you could argue it was ambiguous before, I feel now that Nintendo has given us a very clear delineation of a separate "Super Mario Bros. series of side-scrolling action games" that excludes the Maker games and Super Mario Run (which were released in the 11 years between Wonder and "the last side-scrolling entry"). Let me emphasize: A series of side-scrolling action games, and this is a side-scrolling entry in the series of side-scrolling action games. It seems like a stretch of logic to infer from this that there could be non-side scrolling and/or non-action games in a side-scrolling action series. DrippingYellow (talk) 12:10, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

Under the logic of the 1st 2 setences, we should merge all 4 franchises and all the series into 1 article! Also, for the last sentence, what about games that are both side-scrolling action games AND non-side-scrolling action games (like game-making or "automatic movement with some control" games)? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:24, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
If a game is a side-scrolling action game, it can't also be a non-side-scrolling action game, this isn't Schrödinger's game genre. Being able to make levels in the Maker games doesn't mean their side-scrolling action elements somehow don't exist. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I agree with you about the classification of the Super Mario Bros. series as part of the Super Mario series, my point was more that "spinoff" is a bit of a useless classification when we're dealing with sub-sub-series and what have you. However, I don't think we need to have a Super Mario Bros. series article separate from the main Super Mario series article, if that's what you're suggesting. I feel like the Mario Bros. example isn't really comparable because of how obviously untenable merging most of the franchise's distinct series into a single page would be. In my opinion, series contained within series shouldn't get articles, but series contained within franchises should. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
But then what about DKL? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:28, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
What about it? It's a related yet separate series to DKC. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
It could be considered a sub-series of DKC, due to its numerous similarities (& especially DKC2/DKL2 and DKC3/DKL3), and thus wouldn't deserve an article. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:34, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
A sub-series is a series contained within another series, not a related yet separate series, which is what DKL is. Compare Mario Tennis and Mario Golf - they're similar, related series of sports games developed by Camelot, but are separate as neither can be said to contain the other. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:39, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
And yet Mario Golf & Golf are part of the same overall series, which has to do with golf, and all the sports games are all part of the same overall sports series. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:41, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Uh, no? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:44, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
1, "...eventually leading to the Mario Golf series...". 2. NES Open Tournament Golf is part of both series. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:48, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Good point, but I still think it's a stretch to call them part of the same series, and that doesn't seem to be the wiki's current interpretation, with the Mario Golf (series) article referring to the "previous Golf series", and much like with DKC and DKL, "leading to" doesn't necessarily mean "containing" (though admittedly some kind of re-evaluation of the golf games might be in order since Nintendo seems to consider Japan Course and US Course as Mario Golf games). Anyway, to return to the topic of the Super Mario series, I still don't think there's any sub-series that need splits here. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:19, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I never said that DKC LEAD TO DKL, but DKC2 is almost the same as DKL2, and same with DKC3 & DKL3. Also, what do other people think concerning "there's any sub-series that need splits here"? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:23, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Uh, I thought we were in agreement that DKC led to DKL, that much at least seems inarguable (Donkey Kong Land (series) article tells us "The series is based on the Donkey Kong Country series"). I just don't think that makes DKL a "sub-series" of DKC, but rather a related series, since neither series contains the other. But I digress. Anyway, this quite recent proposal dealt with splitting sub-series, and it failed by quite a margin. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:38, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I never said DKC led to DKL. All I was saying was that DKC2/3 are basically the same as DKL2/3. As for that linked proposal, see my comments on that proposal. Also there are other contributions I made that are still "current", so anyone (including you) needs to reply so that they can keep going. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 14:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

Ah, wait, I think I misunderstood the proposal at first. Is this basically an extension of the proposal to get rid of "franchise" headings, to be able to separate the SMB games and other Super Mario games into different places in the History section? DrippingYellow (talk) 14:45, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

The comments have strayed off-topic a bit but yeah, I think so. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 15:23, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

Move Super Mario Odyssey kingdom infobox brochure info to Brochure details section and use the generic course infobox for Odyssey kingdom articles

It is strange that, while infoboxes for courses in Super Mario 64 or Galaxy feature useful data for players (like missions and comets for galaxy articles), we don't have any of that type of info in the Odyssey Kingdom infobox (such as number of Power Moons, number of regional coins and bosses). The infobox template for Odyssey kingdoms include just the brochure data, like population and industry, but, since that is fictional and irrelevant data, we should move it to the kingdom article's brochure details section, as it is just brochure data.

I propose:

  • Moving the current kindom infobox (centered on brochure info: kingdom and location taglines, population, size, locals, currency, industry and temperature) to the Brochure details section. The kingdom tagline could be displayed as the quote at the top of the article as well.
  • Use the course infobox instead for the opening of the article, as that is already used for the 3D games' courses and galaxies without distinction.
  • Adding info for the number of Power Moons and number of regional coins into the course infobox template.

In order to maintain the layout of the Brochure details sections intact, we could make the kingdom infobox into a horizontal box like so:

Horizontal box idea
SMO Cap Brochure Art.png Cap Kingdom
"Home of Tradition, Propriety, and Hats"
Bonneton
"A land of haberdashed dreams."
Population Middling Size Smallish
Locals Bonneters Currency Hat-shaped
Industry Hats, Airships Temperature Average 71°F (22°C)

Proposer: Bro Hammer (talk)
Deadline: May 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Bro Hammer (talk) Per my proposal.
  2. Hewer (talk) Sounds reasonable, per proposal.
  3. Arend (talk) As long as we still use the (revised horizontal) infobox in the brochure details, per all.
  4. MegaBowser64 (talk) Nice idea! Per all.
  5. Nintendo101 (talk) Good idea, and I like the horizontal box.
  6. Jazama (talk) Per all

Oppose

  1. LadySophie17 (talk) I like the infobox as it is. It's charming and harmless. If necessary, we could just add the relevant info like number of Power Moons, Regional Coins and following/preceding kingdoms to the template itself.

Comments

Actually, given that the brochure infobox's info is already displayed in a similar table in the brochures in-game, wouldn't it be a good idea to simply just move the kingdom infobox to the article's brochure details section, instead of removing the infobox altogether? That would be the simplest way to move all the info to that section and keep both the kingdom tagline and area tagline neatly in the brochure where it already belongs in-game, instead of separating it to the top of the page. The course infobox can still take the kingdom infobox's initial placement on the article, it's not like we haven't had articles with multiple infoboxes before. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 20:27, May 10, 2024 (EDT)

I think I'd prefer that too. - Nintendo101 (talk) 20:38, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I guess, but that would mess up the layout used in the brochure details sections, which I personally think looks pretty nice and clean the way it is, which is why I didn't consider it (unless we made the box horizontal). You think it is worth it? Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 21:00, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
You've got a point there. Maybe we could try to revamp the infobox to be horizontal so it wouldn't have to mess up the layout. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 22:59, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
I updated it and kept the box as you suggested. If you have any ideas on how to improve it, please let me know. Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 23:32, May 10, 2024 (EDT)
Looks great! I'd probably set the colspan for the Kingdom name/area name/taglines to 4 instead of 2 so it would look nice in 4:3 screens (i.e. iPad), and I'd probably try to keep the styles that the infobox had as much as possible (e.g. with the dark khaki border and area tagline), but it's perfectly serviceable regardless. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 07:50, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

I should probably note though, that all Super Mario Sunshine courses (e.g. Sirena Beach, Pinna Park) appear to use the location infobox instead of the course infobox. Would that also have to be changed (or at least determined via another proposal)? ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 17:50, May 11, 2024 (EDT)

Create {{DLC infobox}} template

The Super Mario DLC articles are missing a {{DLC infobox}} template. I was just wondering if there's a possibility to create the {{DLC infobox}} template. The following parameters are as follows:

  • name - The name of the DLC (italics are optional).
  • image - Image(s) of the topic.
  • game - The game(s) the DLC applies to.
  • release - The release date of DLC in all regions (use the {{release}} template).
  • languages - The languages the DLC is playable in (use the {{languages}} template).
  • cost - The cost date of DLC in all regions (use the {{release}} template).
  • platforms - The platforms that the DLC has been released on.
  • content - A brief summary of the content in the DLC.
  • related - Any subjects related to the DLC.

Once this proposal passes, the we'll be able to put the infobox on Mercedes-Benz × Mario Kart 8, The Legend of Zelda × Mario Kart 8, Animal Crossing × Mario Kart 8, Donkey Kong Adventure, the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass, The Tower of Doooom, The Last Spark Hunter, and Rayman in the Phantom Show.

Proposer: GuntherBayBeee (talk)
Deadline: May 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. GuntherBayBeee (talk) Per proposal
  2. Scrooge200 (talk) I've always found it strange that these don't already have an infobox. Considering DLC for Mario games is getting more common lately, it definitely has a use.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Honestly, we're surprised this hasn't been created sooner with the absolute deluge of DLC Mario Kart 8 has received across literally multiple consoles, running the gambit from the Mercedes-Benz crossover to the Booster Course Pack. And if that wasn't enough, the Rabbids games' DLC campaigns show this isn't even just a Mario Kart 8-only thing. (We have a bit more to say, but we'll leave that to comments.)
  4. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) This was something I thought of a while back as well. Just not sure how "related" would work.
  5. Arend (talk) Per all.

Oppose

Comments

Depending on how you choose to define "DLC", we think you could even throw in a few other things as well. Admittedly, the DLC category is a little muddied at the moment with... mumble grumble... smash redirects, so we couldn't get the best look at this hour, but from what we saw, you could even throw in those Coin Rush packs pretty easily. We think the only real exception is New Super Luigi U, since that one technically did see a standalone release without the game it's DLC for, meaning we already use the game infobox for that one. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 01:58, May 12, 2024 (EDT)

Split the Super Mario universe and the Paper Mario universe

I think the articles about the Super Mario universe (characters, levels, worlds, etc.) should be split between the Super Mario uiverse and the Paper Mario universe. As those are 2 different universes. This is confirmed in Mario & Luigi Paper Jam for Nintendo 3DS. Also in Super Paper Mario, there is a wedding scence with Mario, Bowser & Peach in the Paper Mario universe. In the Super Mario universe there's a wedding scene in Super Mario Odyssey. Kamek and Bowser Jr. appear for the first time in the Paper Mario verse in Paper Mario: Sticker Star. In the Super Mario universe they appear earlier. Bowser Jr. in Super Mario Sunshine and Kamek in Yoshi's Island. For example there would be an article about Mario and a seperate article about Paper Mario from the Paper Mario series. This would be a pretty big, important change for this wiki, to be even better, more accurate. And I think that's what matters. To make the Super Mario wiki more organiced and easier to use for Mario Fans. Thanks!

Proposer: Big Super Mario Fan (talk)
Deadline: May 19, 2024, 23:59

Support

  1. Big Super Mario Fan (talk) Per my proposal.

Oppose

  1. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per the proposal that split the Paper Jam characters and my comments here. I will also again point out MarioWiki:Canonicity.
  2. Hewer (talk) Paper Jam does not confirm that the Paper Mario games happened in a different universe, it merely confirms that there is another universe with paper versions of the characters based on those from Paper Mario. To extrapolate from that that Paper Mario and everything else are set in different universes is a forbidden speculative reading between the lines, as described in MarioWiki:Canonicity and MarioWiki:Chronology. This would very much not make the wiki "more organiced and easier to use", but rather be perhaps the biggest organisational disaster to ever befall the wiki.

Comments

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

Retrieved from "https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Proposals&oldid=4209493"