Talk:Toad

From the Super Mario Wiki

From the article: Toad also appeared in Super Mario 64/DS, giving Mario & company tips for findig secret stages, like the one in the mirror room and sometimes giving stars too.

Are the Toads in Super Mario 64 the Toad. I was under the impression that they were all generic Toads working in the castle. --Son of Suns 21:20, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
Especially since two toads appear at the end beside Peach, you have a point. -Wayoshi 21:26, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
And I think in the second floor hallway there are two Toads...if you move the camera, you can see both of them on the screen. --Son of Suns 21:34, 21 June 2006 (EDT)

Yes you can.....HK

I don't think that it should assume that one of the Toads is the Toad the article is about in the Super Mario 64/DS section. It sounds like a POV phrase to me. Toadette 4evur 20:40, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Contents

Soccer Look[edit]

Could someone that has Super Mario Strikers please put a picture up of Toad in it.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by YoshiFan (talk).

Only Toads (the species) appear in Super Mario Strikers, as sidekicks. Toad does not appear. Cobold 09:52, 10 February 2007 (EST)

Is Toad princess Peach's brother?[edit]

I thought Toad was peach's brother in the super mario bros super show. This could be truth, because in the multiplayer mode of mario party 5 a special group name appears if two players cooperate. Peach and Toad get the group name "ROYAL FAMILY"!!! and peach has a toad-like grandma in Mario RPG (snes). shocking???
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Justwriting (talk).

.... When you pair-up Luigi and Yoshi in Mario Party 5, it calls them the Green Bros., that doesn't mean there family. Also, please use the forum for comments like that. -- Sir Grodus

I'm watching the show, but I haven't come across evidence for that yet. I think he's just her hired protector who became a close friend in that show. He's very dedicated, though. Stumpers! 15:05, 29 December 2007 (EST)

Sir Grodus is right! "Royal Family" doesn't mean their brothers and sisters! They'd call it "Royal Family" 'cause Toad is protecting Princess Toadstool and also the Mushroom Kingdom! And Toad always comes with Peach when Peach decides if she can go with Mario and Luigi! Nothing means their brothers and sisters!!!--Smarty-jamjam 21:25, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

SMS[edit]

In Super Mario Sunshine, the instruction book labels the red-capped Toad as "Toad" shuold this be mentioned. - Ultimatetoad 18:05, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Hello? - Ultimatetoad 18:57, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Indeed it does. Maybe it is THE Toad, but I'm not 100% sure.Knife (talk) 20:25, 9 March 2007 (EST)

Well, I almost am. The Toad looks like him, and is called him. I see no need for further evidence. - Ultimatetoad

The Toad labelled as "Toad" in the Sunshine Manual has a red mushroom cap and red clothing, while regularly Toad wears blue. The Toads in Sunshine behave really childish (talk to them in the first scene of the game), so I think it is a mistake in the manual. - Cobold

I always thought Toad WAS chiildish. - Ultimatetoad

Toad is the label for all the Toads. It doesn't mean it's the Toad. The manual even says in the story, "Mario, Peach, and an entourage of Toads have come to Isle Delfino". It doesn't say Toad came, Toads came. Also note that it labels the Pianta and the Noki "Pianta" and "Noki". It says in in the singular, even though there is more than one of each. The "Toad" label just means a Toad. -- Son of Suns

Alot of Toads are named Toad. Toadette 4evur 20:44, 30 January 2008 (EST)

I just noticed something. In the intro of Mario Superstar Baseball, the same red Toad congratulates Mario along with Peach, Daisy, and Yoshi on his victory against Wario. -- Klaus Kratchet

About the Pianta and Noki thing, in the manual's description of them it says "Isle Delfino Residents" in the plural form, but describes Toad as "Peach's attendant" in the singular form, so it isn't for the whole group, but that one Toad. I believe it is him. Like stated above, Toad has a red vest in Mario Superstar Baseball. --Toadster 04 22:01, 1 May 2008 (EDT)

Definately. Instruction booklets count as proof of course, so he was definately in Sunshine. Baseball might be a bit of a stretch, but I would like to include at least a reference to that in the article... Stumpers! 23:01, 1 May 2008 (EDT)

Mushroom Retainer[edit]

According to the Mushroom Retainer article, SMRPG proves that Toad is one of the Mushroom Retainers. This would prove that he WAS in SMB and LL, If anyone has the game and can prove the articles statement, please tell me. I'm trying to end all these accursed continuity problems.Plllleeeeaseee tell me soon. - Ultimatetoad

hello? - Ultimatetoad

I always thought the Toad rescued before Princess Toadstool in Super Mario Bros. was Toad, but I dunno. The Toad first met in Luigi's Mansion is Toad, I'm practically sure of it. Yes, he is one of the eight Mushroom Retainers in Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars. -- Sir Grodus

The Mushroom retainers could change, meaning Toad got a different Toad's position. -- Son of Suns

Yes, but THAT seems even more far-fetched than saying he is a Mushroom Retainer. - Ultimatetoad

How so? Toad wasn't a character until Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA). -- Son of Suns

Hmmmm..... well, since there no proof, I'll put it in the generic appearences section. Also SoS, most continunuity problems are now solved; only Luigi's Mansion left. - Ultimatetoad

To say that he could have changed is very far fetched, and I know this discussion is old and probably not applicable, but I want to get this out in case the issue comes up again. We have no reason to believe that except what we may assume based on Earth positions of government. I know that some people do not view it as canon, but the Super Show gave Toad the role of the Princess's protector immeadiately following her rescue in Super Mario Bros. In other words, he would have been her protector before Bowser's invasion. Regardless of your opinion however, we can't say that just because Toad wasn't a character until SMB2 that he wouldn't be in SMB1. There are plenty of examples of retcon in the Mario series. Stumpers! 22:38, 30 January 2008 (EST)

Okay, it's an "alternate" canon source, as defined by some guy on the Wiki some time ago, but it's The Super Mario Bros. Super Show! episode "Trojan Koopa." After failing at saving Peach, Toad says, "Some Mushroom Retainer I turned out to be... I was so close! I couldn't save her..." So... he was a Mushroom Retainer then, during the events of Super Mario Bros. only if you consider the show and the games to be part of the same continuity. Great... Stumpers! 22:02, 5 March 2008 (EST)

look here everybody it confirms that the Toad indeed does not appear until Super Mario Bros. 2 http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Q3TJhfvkUiLDeT6Brt3L2AyaWRCF0djg A Link to the Present 23:47, 17 February 2011 (EST)

There are other sources that state he appeared in Super Mario Bros. as well like the Smash trophies and spin-off game profiles. Additionally, the Japanese info for Wario's Woods never makes reference to what game Toad originated from. Propeller Toad

Images[edit]

I think there is enough Images, respond to support or oppose. YoshiFan

All right, four people in support,(including me), I'm removing the Template! Brawlslce.gifA fan of Yoshi | Here

Support.--Luigifan14 18:33, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

Support -- Sir Grodus

Support. --KPH2293 00:06, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Support. --Brawlslce.gifA fan of Yoshi | Here YoshiFan 15:27, 3 April 2007 (EDT)

Support--Smarty-jamjam 21:28, 6 May 2009 (EDT)

First Quote[edit]

I don't get why you oppose the SMB quote, Ultimatetoad. That's classic. Wa Yoshihead.png TC@Y 17:20, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

I think it's because Toad never said it. Generic Mushroom Retainers did. -- Son of Suns

Yeah... I like the quote....it's my sig..... but it's not Toad's. - Ultimatetoad

I kinda like the SMRPG quote. Why was it removed? - Cobold

Is Toad in Super Mario Sunshine?[edit]

I have the manual, and it says that the red toad is Peach's attendant. Klaus Kratchet

All the Toads are her attendants. See the previous SMS section. -- Son of Suns

Is Toad in Mario Pinball Land?[edit]

Since there are two pictures of him at the bottom, could somebody write about it in the biography section? I never played it or know anybody who has it.

Yeah, he's in it. He's in the movie at the beginning, and he runs the shops. But I'm not up to writing sections yet, and I don't have enough time these days. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png

SPM[edit]

Is it Toad in SPM or just a generic Toad? I just want to be clear on this.... - Ultimatetoad

Luigi refers to him as Toad, so yes. -- Sir Grodus

Cool. Now I am more willing to let one other section go if needed.... - Ultimatetoad

Follow Toad[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

merge 11-0

I'm beggining to think this is just Toad, is he actually refered to as "Follow Toad" or anything else? I haven't played the game in a while. -- Sir Grodus

Well, I don't have the game, but It looks like it to me. Will someone who has the game please answer? - Ultimatetoad

I have the game, and I'm near-positive he's never named. Considering that he's so close to Toadette and everything, and that he looks just like Toad, I think it's meant to be assumed that he is plain ol' Toad. --YellowYoshi398 10:10, 2 April 2007 (EDT)

Sooo... merge? - Ultimatetoad

Yeah. He's pretty much definitely Toad. YELLOWYOSHI398

I don't think he's THE Toad, just a generic Toad. Don't hate me if I'm wrong, but there's no source confirming that the Follow Toad is THE Toad. Considering his role is very similiar to the Toad in Mario Party 2, I'm not sure. If the Toad in MP2 was THE Toad, it may prove that this Toad is THE Toad. Don't know where the name Follow Toad popped up either. Confused

To my knowledge, it doesn't say "Follow Toad" anywhere in the game, so I added the conjecture template. I do think that since they're so similar in their actions and role in the game, this Toad could be THE Toad. Phoenix Rider 23:52, 6 April 2007 (EDT)

Sooooo.... a vote? - Ultimatetoad

I think it's Toad. Plumber

Vote[edit]

Support Merge[edit]

  1. Plumber
  2. -- Sir Grodus
  3. Aipom_Banana_2.gif Aipom 424.png

  4. I am Confused 16:33, 8 April 2007 (EDT)
  5. Mario Yoshi NSMBW.pngXzelionETC
  6. YELLOWYOSHI398
  7. Ultimatetoad
  8. Max2 (talk)
  9. Klaus Kratchet
  10. Stumpers
  11. Booster

Oppose Merge[edit]

Comments[edit]

He's never reffered to as "Follow Toad", he looks like Toad, theres nothing contradicting the fact that he's probably just Toad, who has hosted previous Mario Parties. -- Sir Grodus

Oh, the way the article worded it, it made him sound like an important host.--Aipom_Banana_2.gif Aipom 424.png--

Like Toad.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maxlover2 (talk).

Okay this vote is unopposed should someone merge it? Great Gonzo

OK, I did. Plumber

Toad's Relationships To Other Characters[edit]

Something interesting I've noticed is that the team names in Mario Party 6 are used as evidence for character relationships for other character pairings, but interestingly, mentions of such evidence for Toad's (and Yoshi's, coincidentally) relationships aren't mentioned. Is there some reason that I'm not getting for this exclusion, or is it just that no one has added it yet? Dinosaur bob 12:09, 14 May 2007 (EDT)

No ones added it yet..... I don't have Mario Party 6, or I would have... - Ultimatetoad

Hotel Mario[edit]

I've been thinking about adding Hotel Mario information in the biography section, but I'm not too sure if the Toad that appear in that game is THE Toad or simply a generic ones. What are your ideas, guys? Gofer

I don't know- never played the game! Mostly what I came in here to comment on was that I can't believe there was no mention of how Super Mario Bros. 2 portrays the shroom-dude as stronger than Mario or Luigi, judging by how quickly he can pull things out of the ground, before I just added it!Dinosaur bob 20:40, 1 July 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, I saw footage, thats not Toad, that not even a Mushroom Person, its just an oddly named 1-Up. -- Sir Grodus

Really? So, he msut still count since he he is named Toad in the "inclosed instruction book."... do it?

Gofer

I think in the interest of making things less confusing, we should stick with what's recognizable instead. We're not going to make a new page called "Skeleton Koopa," we'll just consider it Dry Bones. We have no idea what a Mini Ninji is, so let's list it in the Ninji section. Truth is, a lot of the things were misnamed in the enclosed instruction book... Banzai Bill should have been Bullet Bill. The only remotely new enemy character (outside of a Goomba and Koopa Troopa in wardrobe) is Pat the Bat, which basically functions like a Swooper anyway. There's an excellent in-depth Hotel Mario review here, before it became a YouTube icon: http://www.goodtimeretrocafe.com/cdi/hmario.html LinkTheLefty 23:11, 26 April 2010 (EDT)

The SM64 conundrum[edit]

Yes, I'm bringing this up again. In SM64DS, The Toads are a species (2 appear at once.) but in SM64, only one appears at one time. The instruction book says that Toad and Princess Peach were missing, but maybe he just meant he couldnt see Toad right away... like, when he moved to the left and searched along the wall, he found him? Thoughts? - Ultimatetoad

They're still a species in SM64, since two appear aside Princess Peach at the end.Knife (talk) 16:19, 21 July 2007 (EDT)

Ummm.... so what should I put in that section? - Ultimatetoad

In both games Toads are species. However, the main Toad was the one found near the door to the castle (which is probably the first Toad you'll see). However, the main Toad's role in the game is somewhat unimportant since all he does is tell Mario of Peach's kidnapping (doesn't even give Mario a free Power Star like the other Toads). Although I'm not sure about this part, Toad MAY have been standing alongside Peach at the end. Hopefully, that covers your question.Knife (talk) 14:04, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

O.k..... - Ultimatetoad

Is there any confirmation on this? There is no source here. Toadster_04

Toad is the first toad mario meets. It says so in the manuel of mario 64 ds as it says "According to Toad,...". I don't see it saying "a toad" so it can be said that it is toad. Also in the remake, Toad has more personality and knows the characters like being scared of wario and thinking he will leave them. User:Pichufan93

Magician?[edit]

So... is there any particular reason Toad is in the "Magicians" category? I can't remember him ever using anything that could be called "magic"--a whole lot of throwing stuff and giving out items, but no magic. The descriptions of his abilities in the article don't seem to mention magic either. So is there some obscure thing I'm missing, or should Toad be taken out of that category? Wario'sFalconPAUNCH! 23:12, 16 September 2007 (EDT)

In the The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3, Toad used a Magic Wand. He was not very good at it, but he still managed to use the magic. My Bloody Valentine
Oh, okay. Thanks for clearing that one up. Wario'sFalconPAUNCH! 00:00, 17 September 2007 (EDT)

Apperance in Mario Galaxy[edit]

Prevoucly on the article it had said that toad was in galaxy but it has been taken down how ever one of the guards was toad I beileve and there should be a mention of him I dont know but this should be brought up Partytoad

People! Just because a Toad has red color doesn't mean it's the Toad in the article. The "Toad" the article is about appears in the intro, that's it. I think the section should be removed. Toadette 4evur 17:08, 29 January 2008 (EST)

So in this article you can't talk about other Toads? My bad. I just thought it would be interesting for other people to know that there are Toads in Super Mario Galaxy. I don't see why remove the article. Lules

Well, they're mentioned in the Toad (species) article for one. Toadette 4evur 21:34, 29 January 2008 (EST)

...[edit]

O.kay, Son of Sons, Pokemon DP, you have removed useful info. Sure, the whole Toad/Toadette thing is kind of iffy, but it's still obvious that they have SOME kind of relationship. It's..... how should I say this... important speculation. And DP, sure that list of where Toad may have been was speculative, I realize that now, but is it not still true that Toad's name may be confused with that of the species? Did you really have to remove the whole section? - Ultimatetoad

SMS official art[edit]

I know there's official art of Toad from Super Mario Sunshine, but it's not on this site. It's on www.themushroomkingdom.net. We should upload it. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png

I'm quite sure Toad isn't actually in Super Mario Sunshine and that its all just generic Toads. -- Sir Grodus 21:11, 10 February 2008 (EST)

I'd agree with you, except that I can't logically deny that Peach would want her longtime friend Toad to come with her. In terms of official confirmation, though, I got nada. Stumpers! 21:54, 10 February 2008 (EST)
I don't know. I think it's Toad, becuase he's listed in the game booklet as "Toad" and as "Peach's attendant". We should at least say in the article that there was a red Toad that might be Toad. Anyway, whether it's Toad or just some red Toad, there's game art of him right here. And the site should have all official art from the Mario series. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png
Hold up: the manual refers to him as Toad? That would cinch it. I'll check it out and report back. Stumpers! 00:53, 1 March 2008 (EST)
Oh, here's a link. You'll find it on page 9. Click here for the whole manual. For those who trust me, Peach, Toadsworth, and Toad are lined up with a discription next to each. The Toad in CrystalYoshi's artwork is labeled Toad where Peach and Toadsworth are labeled their names. In other words, it's presented as a name. However, it should also be noted that Pianta and Noki are listed as such as well. Really, you all need to look at the document. Stumpers! 00:57, 1 March 2008 (EST)
Well the picture is on the gamehiker wiki, right here. so maybe I'll uplaoad it sometime. If you don't want me to put it on this page, maybe I'll put it on the Toad (species) page. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png

Toad... as an item?[edit]

Is Toad supposed to be an item? If so, how? RAP.pngRAP... This entry will not be added into the list unless some explaination is discussed. ;)

I don't remember Toad as an item, unless Peach's B move in Melee counts. Paper Jorge ( Talk·Contributions)·
Hotel Mario. Typo in the manuel. Stumpers! 00:52, 1 March 2008 (EST)

Galaxy and Sunshine[edit]

How do we know the red toad in Galaxy and Sunshine isn't THE Toad? I got the impression that the whole reason they gave the Toads different colors was to distinguish the lesser toads from The Main Toad, sorta like how it was with Yoshi. - Buddy Chist

Well we have no proof they are THE Toad. So, until we're sure, we just leave that out. Paper Jorge ( Talk·Contributions)·

But the game Galaxy did give the red one a particular amount of focus and prominance that seems to imply that it's Toad. - Buddy Christ

Toad himself typically wears a blue vest. The Sunshine and Galaxy Red Toads wear red vests. Yes, the Red one is the Toad Brigade leader, but it doesn't prove that he's THE Toad. -- Booster
Being a leader and more focus means nothing at all. Paper Jorge ( Talk·Contributions)·
To be fair, you can't tell 100% for sure who's who. I don't think Nintendo makes a notable difference between character and species. The Toad with red cap in blue is simply othen used as a representative for all Toads. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 07:34, 1 March 2008 (EST)

Just mention in the "other appearances" section that toads appeared in those games that might be Toad, but it's not for sure. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png
Actually, it would probably be best for us to count the notable toad in the blue vest as Toad, and others as just Toads. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png 10:23, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

In the beginning of Galaxy, it shows the Toad Brigade holding various stars and stuff, and the red Toad is wearing the blue shirt. It might be hinting towards him being the actual character Toad. Plus, though this isn't really concrete evidence, back during Super Mario Sunshine, there were li'l kubrick figures and the Toad in red was packaged in the group, showing his importance despite the fact that he did nothing in Sunshine (along with the other Toads). Either way, it would be good to at least mention the fact that this Toad could possibly be the one from the Toad Brigade in Galaxy. UrsulaBoi 11:08, 24 April 2008 (EDT)
Maybe mention in the other appearances section that it's unsure whether these Toads are Toad. 25px CrystalYoshi Yoshi Egg Sprite.png 11:46, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

A Toad, Not The Toad[edit]

Many parts of this article talk about games which feature Toads(s) as if they were the actual Toad character. Obviously, any game with numerous Toad(s) isn't a game the actual Toad appears in. Therefore, all of this informaiton needs to be moved to the Toad (species) page. Fixitup

odd section[edit]

If you scroll down to the Mario Tennis. There is and two sentence that are to closes together is this Vandal.Princess Grapes Butterfly 13:54, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Wario[edit]

Why the heck do we have a relationship to Wario in here?? Its not needed! Giratinabylydarioss8.jpgPalkia47Palkia.png Dialga.png

Well Toad did fight against Wario in Wario's woods. Pichufan93 (talk)

new quote,please?[edit]

umm, does anyone have a better quote? Super Luigi!!

Super Princess Peach Appearence[edit]

Well after seeing the intro, I saw that Mario , Luigi and one specific Toad that looks just like Toad being taken in by the hammer bros to Bowser. Should that info be added to Toad's page? Pichufan93 (talk)

If you're sure it was one Toad, then by all means add it to the article.--Knife (talk) 19:04, 10 September 2009 (EDT)

Luigi's Mansion[edit]

In this game, I pretty sure that Toad appeared only and not other toads as he was sent by peach. Should it be added to the article? Pichufan93 (talk)

A Toad, Not the Toad (Again)[edit]

A long time ago I commented on how much of the page contains information about Toad species and not Toad the character in terms of game appearances. Soon I WILL be moving anything deemed the Toad species unless someone expresses concern about what shouldn't be moved and why. FD09

For which parts are you speaking about. Most of the article besides the confusion with Toad appearences seem to be related to the character Toad. Things like the mario 64 part which I assume you're talking about are confirmed to be Toad from the instruction manuels. User:Pichufan93

Main Quote[edit]

There is somthing odd about the main quote.I mean, Toad didn't appear in Mario and Luigi:Bowser's inside story.So the main quote belongs to another Toad!Is it okay to change it?User:Mr bones

Yeah, it should be changed. Toad never appeared in that game. User:Pichufan93

Who changed the new main quote?User:mr bones

Mario Baseball conclusion[edit]

So should it be stated that Toad is infact in Mario baseball and Sluggers as seen by his bio, chemistry and importance in the opening movies? his bio states that he is peach's loyal subject who tries to protect her. It's possible that they made his vest red so that he wouldn't be with the same vest as Blue Toad. Yoshi is also stated as green yoshi in the baseball games at times as well I believe. So should it be added with the amount of hints there is? User:Pichufan93

Stats[edit]

Does anyone have his stats from Mario Party 3 when he was a partner for Princess Peach in duel mode? --Daisysbiggestfan 00:56, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Sure here's it:

Toad

Attack 1

Stamina 1

Salary 1

DBPM.pngCount Bonsula I need blood...Ml2 drybones.png

By the way, that's not THE Toad, but a Toad.--Knife (talk) 14:11, 12 January 2010 (EST)

Actually, that is Toad as from what I seen, the game refers the Toad as just Toad. He also looks just like his usual self in that game. That's why he is Peach's partner due to being Peach's assistant and he's the only toad there. User:Pichufan93

Super Mario Galaxy (series) Toad[edit]

That's the TOAD BRIGADE captain, not toad, toad has a blue vest, not red, that information should be deleted. I don't think it's just toad saying he's the captain and wearing a red vest. Who agrees with me?!

Ludwig von Luigi.jpg Ludwig von Luigi Ludwig von Luigi.jpg

Super Mario Galaxy Bio

Collectible Card Bio: Toad is Princess Peach's closest confidant and sworn protector. Typically Toad is a happy character, as seen by the constant smile on his face. But now he has reason to be concerned. His beloved princess has been kidnapped by Bowser, and Toad will stop at nothing to help find her. Just when all is feared lost, Toad and his friends appear in their Mushroom-shaped ships and help guide Mario on his quest to save Princess Peach.

Looks like it is indeed Toad. the bio is enough proofs.DBPM.pngCount Bonsula I need blood...Ml2 drybones.png13:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

The captain is indeed Toad as since Sunshine, Toad has appeared in various games with a red vest (even confirmed in official guides for games like sunshine and even the spin-offs). His most standard look is with a blue vest though in games his coloration is changed for various reasons (such as distinguishing himself from the other Toads). He is also a major Toad in comparison to the other Toads in the game. His bio for galaxy is pretty much the only information that we have for the captain and even it confirms that he is Toad. He also got official artwork for galaxy 1 and was on the boxart of the second one as well. He is also one of the save icons that are represting galaxy characters (others include Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi and Luma from galaxy 2 I believe which are all characters that are in the game and he is labelled as Toad [though named as the captain to distinguish himself as well as the fact that he calls himself the captain of the Toad Brigade]). It's similar to Yoshi as we and even Nintendo sees the yoshis in sunshine and galaxy 2 as Yoshi himself and the same goes for Toad as they are both generic characters. User:Propeller Toad

The confusion with appearances section seems to remain undecided on whether the Red spotted toad in SMS, SMG & SMG2 is Toad. But the SMS and SMG sections confirm that the red toad is Toad. It's like two sections of the article are debating with eachother. Someone should clear that up.

User:IGGY7735

I personally think we should keep the confusion part, but change it around to make sure we mention why Toad does make an appearance in these games. Why? Well, it is to show those reading the article the reasoning as to why this Red Toad is indeed Toad. Therefore, we should keep the confusion parts as well as it will give some insight to the those viewing Toad's article so that they are aware of why this Red Toad is indeed Toad (proof is provided in each example I believe). However, I think we should change the lead from saying "This section will list his possible appearances." to "This section will list the disputed appearances of Toad." (since it was once argued before as to whether or not the Red Toad was indeed Toad before we got proof).

User:Propeller Toad

An Error[edit]

I just was reviewing, and isn't Toadsworth Princess Peach's long time protector and not Toad himself? Just saying. Feel free to give your ideas to this.

35x35px ☆ ☆ ☆ This is NOT GamingGal9's user page! This is not her talk!☆ ☆ ☆ Bowser memory ml.png

I'm not sure what part you are mentioning in particular but if you mean the intro then that is referring to the fact that Toad is a protector of the Mushroom Kingdom due to efforts such as helping mario to save the kingdom or even protecting it by himself in games like Wario's Woods. However in relation to Princess Peach, Toad originally was Peach's protector and her loyal servant who would take care of her (his roles being similar to Toadsworth's in the original games-eg. Mario RPG legend of the seven stars). Toadsworth only came in recently and replaced Toad's role in the newer games like in sunshine and the mario and luigi games. However in some of the new games such as the galaxy games, it is seen that the captain is Toad as he is going on to help his princess by helping Mario to recover the power stars. Even though Toadsworth is peach's steward now, Toad is still her loyal servant and does his best to protect her (thus being a long time protector).

User:Propeller Toad

Powers and Abilities[edit]

Nothing about NSMB Wii. SWFlashSWFlash.svg

While two Toads are playable, Toad isn't technically one of them as Blue Toad and Yellow Toad have their own pages. The abilities of Toad from that game can be seen on those two pages. User:Pichufan93
Yellow and Blue are toads too, so every toad can be Mini, Propeller and Penguin.SWFlashSWFlash.svg

Super Mario Bros.[edit]

The article claims that Toad was one of the Mushroom Retainers rescued in Super Mario Bros., but this is not stated in the game and no source is cited; is there any official word on this? He's confirmed to be a Mushroom Retainer in the Super Mario Bros. 2 manual, but that wouldn't have to mean he's one of those that appear in Super Mario Bros.; we don't know how many Mushroom Retainers there are. As far as I'm aware, Toad as a character wasn't invented until the western Super Mario Bros. 2, so unless there's some source retrospectively stating that he's meant to be one of the Toads in the original SMB, that section shouldn't be here.--vellidragon 14:31, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

I suppose no, there are many other things that makes your mind confused. Like this Toad Brigade. They weren't even confirmed to be the same as the ones in SMS. So back to the subject, no, I don't think there is a single source confirming that. If there is, then the writer of that information should put it in references.DBPM.pngCount Bonsula I need blood...Ml2 drybones.png07:23, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
Source??????? Read manual for this wiki, it's not upcoming game.SWFlashSWFlash.svgBy the way, look at mushroom retainer and Toad, very familiar don't you think?

SMB Toad.png50px
Retainer has 3 colors+black background because of NES's 8-bitness, while Toad from Wii has alot of colors with 3rd dimension. Both has white cap with red dots, both has white pants, rounded shoes (not brown because of 8-bit), that shirt (you know why not blue, right?).

It doesn't need to be an upcoming game. Anything that can't easily be cofnirmed from what's seen in the game or stated in its manual should be sourced, people can just go around putting nonsense speculation everywhere otherwise. Also, nobody doubts that Toad is a Toad, if that's what you're trying to show.--vellidragon 15:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

No, that doesn't mean they're the same. All the toads look similar. Specially red ones, just look at paper mario's many red toads!! And they all look like Toad himself.DBPM.pngCount Bonsula I need blood...Ml2 drybones.png07:28, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

The Smash Bros. series has Toad's first appearance (in his trophies) labelled as Super Mario Bros. and when Super Mario Bros. 2 was made, it was stated within the instruction manuals that Toad was one of Peach's Mushroom Retainers from the original game. In Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, Toad was one of the 6 mushroom retainers that appeared as well. Additionally, the mario cartoons (if you count it) has him referring to himself as a mushroom retainer as well. I believe the further evidence is that Toad still has the position of being Peach's loyal servants (considering the games after Super Mario Bros. had the retainers renamed as Peach's servants and guards). Toad has also been seen as a representation for all Toads, therefore he has been named to being one of the retainers in the original game as well as seen in the twenty fifth mario series anniversary products and booklets. In short, Toad's singular appearance was yes in Super Mario Bros. 2, however his this singular character was made directly off the design from the mushroom retainers making any one of them the Toad that made his appearance in Mario 2. User:Pichufan9309:37, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

It seems there's a bit of a misunderstanding here; I'm not doubting the fact that Toad is a Mushroom Retainer, I even pointed out that the Super Mario Bros. 2 confirms him to be one. The manual does not state that he's one of the Mushroom Retainers in Super Mario Bros., however; there may be any number of Mushroom Retainers in addition to those that are rescued in that game, which I also pointed out above. If his first appearance is indeed given as Super Mario Bros. in other official material though, that's proof enough I suppose. Someone should probable cite those in the respective section though to avoid further confusion (as I stated above, it's not clear from the game itself or its manual that Toad is supposed to be in it, so sourcing that information makes sense.)--vellidragon 15:47, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

This game marks the debut of the mushroom people (Toads). Therefore, considering how Toad is seen as the singular representation of the Toads, it makes sense that he made his debut in this game, though he was never considered to being a singular character in later games. Also look at remakes of Super Mario Bros., like Super Mario Bros. deluxe. This game has Toad as the singular representation for the mushroom retainers further proving this point. Mario RPG has also made references to his appearance and the Melee and Brawl trophies are big proofs as well (especially the melee one which talks mainly about Toad himself). I agree with Pichufan93 as it is true for the 25th Super Mario bros. anniversary, merchandise lists Toad being one of the characters making their debuts in this game. Also spin-offs state that his first appearance was in this game (Super Mario Kart, Mario kart 64 ect). Propeller Toad 19:46, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Hey I posted this in an earlier section but i didnt see this one... http://www.nintendo.com/games/detail/Q3TJhfvkUiLDeT6Brt3L2AyaWRCF0djg confirms that Toad debuted in Super Mario Bros. 2, so there is no way he was in the original. A Link to the Present 23:58, 17 February 2011 (EST)

It is official, however, this has not been the case at all times as the Smash bros. trophies state that Toad's first appearance was in Super Mario Bros.. Additionally, the Mario twenty fifth video (and site) anniversary names the mushroom retainer beside Peach as Toad. We have to also take in consideration that Toad is the sole representative for all Toads, so it seems that Nintendo uses Toad as the general image for the Mushroom Retainers in the original game.

Not to mention the various catch cards for Toad's profile (in countless spin-off games) which state that his first appearance was in Super Mario Bros.. Propeller Toad

Talk Page Proposal: Split Toad and Red Toad[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

don't split 4-13

It is not proven anywhere that the red Toad that appears in Super Mario Sunshine, Mario Baseball, and Super Mario Galaxy 2 (there is evidence in the first one) is the Toad. I propose we move the info about those Toads into a new article, and remove it from here. Who's with me?

Proposer: Toad85 (talk)
Deadline: September 10, 2011, 23:59 GMT

Support[edit]

  1. Toad85 (talk) Well, it's my own proposal.
  2. Reddragon19k (talk) Per Toad!
  3. Tails777 (talk) Per all. The Toad in the Mario Baseball series is Red Toad, not the Toad character. For proof, just look in the trivia section in Mario Sports Mix
  4. SWFlash (talk) We have an article for The Yoshi and another for Green Yoshi. Also, per proposal.

Oppose[edit]

  1. Propeller Toad (talk) I believe this has already been discussed as multiple proofs exist for explaining that it is THE Toad. The web and card bios prove that it is Toad. Additionally, the developers who discuss the games in their interviews use Toad's japanese name for referring toToad in these games. Additionally, trivia was created by users in this wiki (not aware of the baseball games). This is why we have these information here if you read the confusion and bio sections on this article.
  2. Pichufan93 (talk) I disagree with this. Like what Propeller Toad says, we have official information actually stating that this is not a random Toad, but Toad himself. Also character traits and Toad's importance to the baseball intros is also something to consider (also his closeness to Toadette in the artwork of Mario sluggers and his chemistry with Wario and Bowser (obvious Wario's Woods ref). Also in Galaxy 2, they are the same Toads. They were introduced like in the first game in order to allow new players (who did not play the first) to know who they are. There is a reason why they say " the Toad Brigade returns!" and the Toads are identical to the ones from Galaxy. Are Toads that generic!? I can't believe people actually try to deny Toad's appearances, yet they do nothing to Yoshi's article which contain info of the Yoshi species as well as the character.
  3. Skitty02 (talk) That is THE Toad. We have proof in all of these games (just check the the confusion with appearances section). Also, that Red Toad in the baseball games is Toad as you just check the game manuals for his bio and he is also coming from the Mushroom Kingdom with the other important characters to Peach's baseball stadium (Mario, Luigi, Daisy, Yoshi, and TOAD) in the sluggers intro vid. Why wouldn't this be THE Toad? Also agreed about the Yoshi part Pichufan93. Nobody complains there.
  4. Lindsay151 (talk) Per all.
  5. Magikrazy51 (talk) Due to his lines in Super Mario Galaxy 2, I'm pretty sure these guys are the same person, er Toad. Umm, per all.
  6. New Super Yoshi (talk) Per All.
  7. Marwikedor (talk) Per alll.
  8. mario Bros.! (talk) Red Toad is Toad...
  9. Bowser's luma (talk) Per all.
  10. MeritC (talk) Per all.
  11. Jazama (talk) Per all
  12. Mario4Ever (talk) Per all.
  13. MagicalToadette (talk) Per all. We do have proof that these are Toad's appearances...

Comments[edit]

@Pichufan- I can see where you're coming from with Galaxy 2, but WHERE is the proof that the Toad in Mario Super Sluggers or Mario Sports Mix is THE Toad? They look pretty generic to me, and for the most part are just recolours of the other Toads. All of the Toads in MSS have the SAME chemistry, so your point there is invalid. There is absolutely NO solid proof that the red Toad that appear in Sunshine is THE Toad. As an avid fanboy of Toad, I would not dream of limiting Toad's appearances. I am just moving the games that are DON'T CONTAIN TOAD HIMSELF. And if you would like to do the same to the Yoshi article, be my guest. I won't stop you. File:Toadlol.gifToad85File:Toadlol.gif

@Skitty02- As I said to Pichufan, WHERE is the proof? It seems like most of your "proof" is speculation. It is very possible that that isn't THE Toad. File:Toadlol.gifToad85File:Toadlol.gif

@Toad85- I'm pretty sure it is obvious that it is THE Toad in Mario Sports Mix. Also for the baseball games, you have to look at the Red Toad's importance. Why was he featured in all the cutscenes like all the other important Mario characters in both games. He also acts just like Toad. His name case may be simmer to Yoshi as he too is specified as Green Yoshi. Also check out the bios for the Mario baseball games for this Toad. Interestingly, his bios name him as "Toad" and as Peach's loyal servant. Also as for Super Mario Sunshine, he was named as "Toad" in the instruction manual. Additionally, the same artwork of the red Toad in this game is reused to present Toad in the Mario Kart games (check out signs in DD and the picture of Toad in Toad's Factory in MKWii). It is obvious that there is a reason why Toad is using the artwork of this Toad only and not the others. User:Pichufan93/sig

New Toad Solo Artwork Surfaced (Super Mario 3D Land)[edit]

Heads-up, everyone -- a new solo artwork of Toad has surfaced in the case of Super Mario 3D Land. Specifically this one:

I believe that it's time for the main infobox picture to be changed for this article using this picture, but only when the game itself gets released. When it does, I'll take care of the change (since I'm somewhat a fan of Toad as well) if there aren't any objections from you folks. Don't get me wrong, the current one is good too, but I belive the SM3DL picture here definitely shows Toad's personality (plus he's facing us, the readers as well, which is a major criteria for character article infobox pictures). --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 12:16, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

Seems like Lindsay151 already took care of the infobox picture change since last night (thanks for the help, Lindsay151). It still must be said here -- this infobox picture of Toad should not be changed to another picture until further notice. --M. C. - "Mario Gals" Fan! User Page | Talk Page 11:45, 3 November 2011 (EDT)

Toad in 3D Land[edit]

The Super Mario 3D Land section of this article seems to say that EVERY red and blue toad is Toad. I thought that Toad was the one that ran the Toad Houses, while the toads that give you star medals are generic, what gives? Not every green yoshi is Yoshi, so not every red and blue toad is Toad.

-IGGY7735

While playing the game, you should notice that there is actually one red Toad with a blue vest in the game. He appears individually in each scene he is seen and even has the same power up usage in the special worlds. Additionally, the menu and final special world level confirm this as there is only one red Toad with a blue vest amongst the countless number of Toads. There are even many red Toads, but only one red Toad with a blue vest. In smg2, Yoshi the character was confirmed to be that Yoshi even though his egg always seemed to exist in different galaxies. Same case here with Toad's recurring appearances. Toad should be noticeable as well in front of the three Toads that also appear in the levels. Propeller Yellow Toad.PNGPropeller ToadPropellerBlueToad.png (talk)

Super Mario Bros.[edit]

In the Super Mario Bros. section of this article, it says that Toad is one of several Mushroom Retainers. Which one is he? MKDS-ROB Artwork.png Master R.O.B.

This has already been discussed in the previous sections of the talk. It is uncertain of which Mushroom Retainer he was; however, it is said that Toad is indeed one of these Mushroom Retainers in SMB2. In SMRPG, Toad was one of the Mushroom Retainers inspired from the original SMB game. In the promotion of the original SMB and SMB Deluxe (a remake), singular art was used to imply that there was a separate Toad character as well. Additionally, in Nintendo's celebration of the Mario 25th anniversary, Toad was one of the celebrated characters as well (being the rep for the general Mushroom Retainers).

In short, it is unknown of which one he is as the character was not a highlight in the original game (being more used in later games); however, Toad is indeed one of the original Mushroom Retainer; nonetheless.

Propeller Yellow Toad.PNGPropeller ToadPropellerBlueToad.png (talk)

Thanks for clarifying. MKDS-ROB Artwork.png Master R.O.B.

mario kart series[edit]

how do ya know that the toad in the mario kart series is THE toad? there is also a koopa troopa in mario kart: double dash and in mario kart 7, but i never heard of a THE koopa troopa.

I don't know but I DO know that toad is the fastest character in Mario Kart Wii(©Nintendo).

Toad having no cap in SM3DW?[edit]

In the Super Mario 3D World somebody wrote that toad loses his cap in the game where was that seen? User:Gamermakerguy

Never, Blue Toad's spots invert at one point, but it never is removed
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Toadbrigade5 (talk).

SM3DW[edit]

Is the playable Toad in SM3DW Blue Toad, or this one? right now the information on this page says it's this one wearing another cap, but is it even confirmed that it's this Toad? I think it should be moved to the page of Blue Toad, because he looks more like him rather than this Toad. I do know that they seem to call the character キノピオ (Kinopio, the Japanese name) in the trailer, but they called Blue Toad and Yellow Toad this way too in NSMBW. ~~ Qyzxf (talk)

When toad has the fire flower, he becomes yellow toad. That's why toad is just called "toad".

That is NOT Toad.[edit]

The Toad you play as in 3D World is not the Toad that we all know. It's Blue Toad. This needs to be changed. --174.102.141.32 23:49, 21 December 2013 (EST)

Please read the settled TPP before you make a comment. Thank you. BabyLuigiFire.png(T|C) 23:52, 21 December 2013 (EST)

Keep it to confirmed appearances of Toad?[edit]

This article seems to count a lot of appearances of both Toad as a character and as a species. The problem is that many fans assume that just about any generic Toad would be the Toad if it's given some significance. There's also a separate article for the latter, so perhaps it might be best to condense this article kept to appearances where Toad is explicitly singled out and named as the individual Toad. This would take out appearances such as...

  • Super Mario Bros.
  • Super Mario Bros. 3 (directly mentioned in the manual as being by Peach's side, but not known to be any of the ones operating the Toad Houses or next to the kings)
  • Super Mario 3D Land
  • New Super Mario Bros. series (maybe not counting the Super Mario 64 DS mini-games)
  • Super Mario Galaxy series (if Captain Toad is not counted as Toad, which he apparently doesn't seem to be as of 3D World)
  • Luigi's Mansion series
  • Mario & Luigi series
  • The Baseball & Strikers series?
  • Some cameo appearances, such as Kirby Super Star (Ultra)
  • ...Anything else I forgot like some comics.

I could say the same about the Yoshi article, so I wanted to see what the census is on this idea... LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:34, 1 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm a bit leery about chopping so much stuff out of the article: the readership is going to include the folks assuming Toad's omnipresent, and finding huge "gaps" in the coverage might be confusing. Nintendo itself also blurs the line between the guy and the species pretty thoroughly: half the time it seems like they assume Toad and Yoshi are omnipresent as much as the fans, and/or they just don't care - either way, us nitpicking starts to seem a bit pointless. Take the SSBM and SSBB Toad trophies for example: both have SMB as the first appearance and talk about the SMB2 appearance, but while SSBM seems more about THE Toad with an aside about other Toads, SSBB starts general and then switches to taking in the singular about SMB2 (the joys of translating from a language that doesn't tend to differentiate between singular and plural, I suspect, plus the aforementioned Nintendo-doesn't-give-a-crap factor).
-
Strikers already isn't covered here, and Mario Superstar Baseball can probably be removed too, however Sluggers seems to involve a unique Toad in the cutscenes (if the article is accurate), so it has more cause to stay. Similarly, the Mario & Luigi Toad appearances also seem reasonable to include, given the prominent roles the single Toads are given. In both cases, while it's not explicitly stated it's THE Toad, it's not stated that it's not him either; as a rule, the simplest and most straightforward interpretation is preferable, so I'd argue that it's better to just go with the flow and say it IS Toad rather than speculating otherwise. The Luigi's Mansion Toad appearances are tougher calls since I haven't played the games and don't know how much the red-capped-blue-vested Toad is differentiated from the others, but I'm tempted to say leave it in for consistency with the overall "red-cap-blue-vest = Toad" idea that is also being used to back up the stuff about the recent Super Mario games. And as for the earlier Super Mario titles, I think both the SMB and SMB3 sections could have some of the padding taken out, and written more like, "there were Toads here, and retroactive one of them became a specific character, as seen in trophies and spin-off material, etc., but see the species page for the full story of these games", but I wouldn't outright remove them entirely.
-
- Walkazo 17:46, 1 May 2014 (EDT)
You make a good point about the readers who might think Toad/Yoshi is omnipresent, but on the other hand there could always be a hidden note at the top of the pages just for editors to try and ensure that whatever is on the page must undoubtedly be confirmed appearances (ie. one character clearly labelled Toad), and I think the redirect at the top of the respective articles' counterparts ought to be enough (although perhaps added with something more clear like: "For information about the species and other uses of the name that are not necessarily mutually exclusive to the single individual, see [species article]"). In my personal opinion (and I mean this with no offense), it's harder to justify separate character and species pages when there's a lot of guesswork overlap involved between the two pages. The way is currently is, I feel, is a lot like the earlier versions of the Yellow Toad and Blue Toad pages, when a bunch of uncertain appearances were attributed to the same character(s). Even if Nintendo themselves blurs the line at times, I think it should be up to the reader (not the Wiki) to judge for themselves whether or not any number of other generically-dressed Toads happens to be Toad... Or at least, this just an idea to help keep the articles distinct from one other. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:14, 1 May 2014 (EDT)
A nice addendum to the above would be a new section dedicated solely to unconfirmed appearances, with a disclaimer that goes something like: "This section lists additional appearances of the Toad species; as the character is not conclusively identified, it should be noted that Toad himself may or may not make an appearance in these titles. For more details about these appearances, see [species article]." LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
The section you describe, is it basically the "Confusion with appearances" section but with examples? Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 17:51, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
Basically, yes, I guess you can say that. What I have in mind is a more comprehensive list of appearances of other Toad characters / unnamed or unidentified appearances, with a table like this, possibly a side note on generic Toad candidates that may be a sighting of the Toad character, and going into more detail in the other article (ideally leaving the expanded summaries in this article to confirmed appearances). LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:03, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
Cool. But, the biggest problem is who is going to document all those Toad appearances chronologically. But this can be a help. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 18:08, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
I listed a few earlier that immediately came to mind. As for others: a lot of the sports or party spinoffs are safe, especially if Toad is playable (except for games that have multiple Toads as "team players"). Cartoon appearances also seem to be accurate, since they considered Toad to be a character rather than the name of his race in the first place. Cameo appearances are usually just for the player's benefit and can just as easily be generic Toads, so those can be considered unconfirmed (like, say, the portrait of the caller NPC added to Mario Is Missing! CD-ROM Deluxe, the WarioWare: Touched! microgame, or most any "out of series universe" guest appearance). So I think that covers almost all of the general bases - the ones I'm really worried about having straight are the appearances in comics, particularly the foreign or more obscure ones, since right now it seems these appearances might be lumped together by default. Outside of that, I would consider totally confirmed appearances to be ones in which he is clearly labelled to be Toad (singular) in the actual product, either in the game itself or in the original packaging / instruction manual. And of course, I think this approach can be applied to just about any article with separate "character / species" versions, not just Toad, as long as the article makes itself clear... LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:01, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
Another possibility in the same vein that I've been mulling over since this topic was first broached is replacing the "Confusion with Appearances" section with a "Possible Appearances" section, which would have a brief discussion about the confusion and then cover everything as sections, rather than a table (although things like cameos can be collapsed into a single section that just lists them out, like most regular characters' cameo sections). This offers an efficient way to deal with situations like the M&L games and Sluggers where you do have a single Toad in a major role: to me, it would seem ill-fitting to talk about those individual Toads in the overall species article, but making separate pages for the unnamed Toad NPCs also seems far less than ideal, especially when most folks are gonna assume it's Toad and come here for the info anyway. Compared to the alternatives, as long as we acknowledge that it's not confirmed, just inferred, our established article for the single, prominent Toad seems like a perfectly reasonable place for info on single, prominent Toads that everything thinks are him anyway. (Plus it means that folks looking through the TOC will see the games they expect to see somewhere on the page right away, but the first point is the main point.) - Walkazo 20:04, 13 May 2014 (EDT)
I think I like that idea more than mine, since as you said it would further reduce potential confusion among readers. On top of that, should all the known/confirmed appearances be under its own major section as well? LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:21, 14 May 2014 (EDT)
Awesome: I'm glad we seem to have found a solution we both like. I was thinking the confirmed stuff would stay in the "History" section, with "Possible appearances" coming right after, and maybe a note in the intro giving users a heads-up that there's a divide. Also, I like the idea of applying this structure to other ambiguous character/species divides - Kamek, for example, comes to mind immediately, since prominent Magikoopas are constantly assumed to be him. Since this is going to affect more than the Toad page, we should probably make a full Proposal about it, rather than just changing things ourselves; if we feel we have the ideas smoothed out enough, I could write and post one in the next couple days. - Walkazo 16:14, 14 May 2014 (EDT)
So anyway, since no one had anything more to add, I made the Proposal. - Walkazo 21:02, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

Not Toad.[edit]

Toad is not Blue Toad in SM3DW. And I know about the TPP so I want to start another one. Problem is idk how. Can someone else start one?

If Toad in SM3DW somehow became blue, why is he red again in the following games? That's... stupid. It's not THE Toad. If you don't want to make it the same character as NSMB series and/or SMG, then merge it with the Toad species or make a new page. But it is definitely not THE Toad.

Peanutjon (talk) 18:02, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

Reading through arguments like these you guys seem to recently go by proven things. The only problem is that with that, there are pretty much NO characters who are Toads. Even the red Toad with a blue jacket, there are multiple of- Super Princess Peach and Partners in Time, for example. Therefore any page for individual Toads is nearly entirely speculation as to whether or not it is a specific Toad, unless it is flat-out said that it is the same. As far as I can see, the Blue Toad in SM3DW is referred to as "Toad", but not in any specific sense.

Other theories I've seen include that in SMB2 THE Toad is blue, but is referred to as THE Toad, so it should be the same in SM3DW. However, as proven by remakes of SMB2, this is simply a graphics error, whereas SM3DW is specifically colored blue. On purpose. They're too high-tech to do it by accident or because they have to.

Peanutjon (talk) 18:09, 22 May 2014 (EDT)

No one? ._. Peanutjon (talk) 18:49, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

Hey look, I totally agree to the "He doesn't magically change colour" thing, but Capatain Toad is a different character. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 18:54, 23 May 2014 (EDT)
What does that have to do with anything I said? The Blue Toad in SM3DW is not Toad and that has nothing to do with Captain Toad.


The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peanutjon (talk).

You're not getting the context. I mean THE Toad doesn't change to blue, and THE Toad isn't Captain Toad. Get it now? - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 23:25, 23 May 2014 (EDT)
I understand that, but it still has nothing to do with what I said. The problem is simply that they refer to the Blue Toad in SM3DW as THE Toad. (Although, with Captain Toad wearing a blue jacket, I'm pretty sure he is THE Toad- but I'll save that for later) 17:19, 24 May 2014 (EDT)


The preceding unsigned comment was added by Peanutjon (talk).

Than what the heck ARE you talking about? - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 17:22, 24 May 2014 (EDT)
the fact that they claim the Blue Toad in SM3DW is THE Toad when he obviously isn't. Peanutjon (talk) 14:52, 25 May 2014 (EDT)

"The fact that" phrase is meaningless and pretentious. Anyway, Blue Toad in 3D World IS the Toad. We had mind - blowing discussions on this, so please refer to those before beating up the ashes of a dead horse. Here's the primary source for it: Nintendo official site:

"Toad is the fastest of the four friends, so he’s the best bet in situations where speed is essential. Princess Peach’s loyal servant and Mario’s lifelong buddy, Toad is a plucky little fellow who’s tougher than his size implies!"

Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 16:49, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

I have no Objection! to that. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 17:16, 26 May 2014 (EDT)
P.S. this is the word if you suspect any form of quote mining. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 17:25, 26 May 2014 (EDT)
Doesn't necessarily prove anything, and for the record I did see the TPPs and stuff, I mentioned that at the top, so you probably should've paid more attention to that >.> Anyhow. All Toads are Peach's loyal servant and a good chunk of them are Mario's lifelong buddy. Not to mention I'm pretty sure he's the same Toad as the one in NSMB which would additionally make him a "lifelong buddy" of Mario. And I'm sorry (kinda) about the "the fact that", but I'm a bit tired of the reaction to a lot of things I say on here, which are often extremely similar to what you and Ninelevando are currently doing, which is acting as if I'm completely stupid because I disagree with you or don't know all the facts (such as the Nintendo website, although yet again that doesn't necessarily prove anything). Peanutjon (talk) 12:35, 30 May 2014 (EDT)
That's also the UK site. Typically MarioWiki goes by Japanese and American, if I am correct, unless there's a serious controversy, such as Birdo and Vivian's genders. Peanutjon (talk) 12:35, 30 May 2014 (EDT)
Theh American site just refers to him as a "little guy", and I'm currently working on translating the Japanese site. Peanutjon (talk) 12:41, 30 May 2014 (EDT)
It says Toad on the official American website as well. Yoshi876 (talk)
yes, but every Toad is referred to as Toad at one point or another. i.e. the Red Toad from Sunshine. If someone would translate the Japanese site...? Peanutjon (talk) 12:56, 30 May 2014 (EDT)
I actually checked the Japanese site a while ago and the character page literally says nothing. Also, the wiki uses info from all sources: PAL, NA and Japanese ref material are all weighted equally, with conflicting info being dealt with mainly on a case-by-case basis, the goal simply being to present the info in the clearest and most straightforward way without ignoring the warts. - Walkazo 15:45, 30 May 2014 (EDT)

But now you're going on to a different matter, the one on Sunshine. Back on 3D World, can you give examples of what other Toads have been called Mario's lifelong buddy? - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 18:13, 30 May 2014 (EDT)

That's basically a meaningless question, when Koopa Troopa's Mario Party 9 bio calls it one of Mario's oldest foes in characteric sense, and we don't identify it as his own character on this wiki. It's still a generic member of its species, something that can also be applied to Toad. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 06:53, 31 May 2014 (EDT)

Okay we're obviously getting nowhere with this because both side have evenly accurate points. Therefore, can someone start another TPP and just do a majority rules thing? (Again, idk how.) Peanutjon (talk) 21:03, 1 June 2014 (EDT)

3D World Toad[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

is toad 13-2

In the above section, yet another Toad issue has arose. Read the previous talk section for info, and here are some of the major points to consider before voting:

  • Toad is not Blue, he doesn't change colour.
    • His Bio stats Mario's Lifelong buddy and Peach's loyal servant.
      • Generic Toads can also be called that
        • No examples are given, instead Koopa Troopa is referred to
          • Nintendo never made Koopa an actual player
Of course, that is going onto the Koopa Troopa matter. Then there is also the argument on Captain Toad being the Toad in 3D World. Considering all the possiblities, let's finally try to end this argument.

Proposer: Ninelevendo (talk)
Deadline: June 16, 2014, 23:59 GMT

3D Toad is Toad[edit]

  1. Ninelevendo (talk) The point that Mario (talk) pointed out completly changed my mind on the matter, and Captain Toad is obviously a different character.
  2. Ryandavhet (talk) I'm pretty sure his blue color is a reference to his SMB2 sprite. Per proposal.
  3. Yoshi876 (talk) I don't actually see why we need this proposal, considering we've had already decided twice that this is Toad. But let me reiterate the points that led us there originally. Every single official source, including both the US and UK official websites use the name Toad, now I'll admit I'm not a programmer but I assume that it won't take that much effort to put the word "Blue" in front of it. There is also the Iwata Asks that has been mentioned before that confirms this, and again not an expert but I'm fairly it doesn't take mounds of effort to say the word "blue".
  4. Mario4Ever (talk) Per Yoshi876.
  5. Walkazo (talk) - Per Yoshi876 and the previous discussions that all came the agreement that he's THE Toad. The "lifelong buddy" bio is the main point, and the obvious SMB2 references made by the game back it up: the simplest interpretation is the best, and here it is that he was recoloured to be blue because of the old sprite. The fact that Japanese material doesn't differentiate between singular and plural when in comes to generic-looking characters doesn't invalidate the English-language material that does identify a recurring single Toad, as it does here. Presence beats absence, and solid statements are easier to work with than grammatical ambiguity (Japanese doesn't differentiate between plural and singular).
  6. Turboo (talk) - Per Yoshi876 and Walkazo.
  7. Koopakoolklub (talk) Don't know why he's blue, but that part of his head is just a hat, so he could have very easily changed it. And if it were Blue Toad, The bio would say Blue Toad. Per Yoshi876 and Walkazo.
  8. Ghost Jam (talk) per Walkazo. I agree that previous discussions have adequately shown which toad is which. No new information to contradict previously established formation has surfaced or been presented.
  9. Jazama (talk) per all
  10. Mario (talk) Toad Solo MK7.png = Toad Artwork - Super Mario 3D World.png plz stahp beating the ashes of a dead horse i mean srsly did u c sum prpsals + dem discussions?
  11. Stonehill (talk) Per Walkazo & Yoshi876. Since this topic is very heavily debated, I do believe we should merge this section into the recently created Possible Appearances section.
  12. Wario land 3 (talk) per all. Well I say, why not merge all colored toads? It's just a waste of time.

3D Toad is NOT Toad[edit]

  1. Peanutjon (talk) it's just ridiculous... he's never been blue before, and is still red in later games... it's obviously Blue Toad from NSMBW. (And I've never really stated that Captain Toad is the Toad, I do believe so, but that is not the current point because it's a lot easier mistaken).
  2. Aokage (talk) Saying that Toad is blue as reference to SMB2 is a huge assumption to make. This Wiki is supposed to be about facts. And the fact is that 3D World Toad is blue, while "the Toad" is not. Thus, it's not Toad.

Comments[edit]

Toad's never been blue before? So the sprite of Super Mario Bros. 2 doesn't count? You know, the game SM3DW seems inspired by? Zakor1138 (talk) 00:38, 2 June 2014 (EDT)

Toad was supposed to be Blue in SMB2, they changed it in later games because they altered Toad's colours later on. He's Blue in 3D World because I]the producers wanted it to be a throw back to that game. If it was Blue Toad, his fire power wouldn't be Yellow Toad's one. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 01:33, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
The artwork for SMB2 always depicted him with his normal colors. Aokage (talk) 04:10, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
Then why did you think they chose a Blue Toad? Favouritism? - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 05:07, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
So that every playable character would have a unique color. Aokage (talk) 09:21, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
In SMB2 he was blue because of graphical limitations. This is proven by his artwork being red and remakes having him red. They used a Blue Toad as a reference. However, since there are no graphical limitations, this is completely purposeful. The Fire Toad thing... well that's really a stupid point, it proves nothing. Mario's Fire form used to be yellow, now it's white, can't Blue Toad's fire form change from blue=based to yellow-based? Peanutjon (talk) 11:55, 2 June 2014 (EDT)

Um, guys? I think this is kinda a bad time to make a proposal like this, since Walkazo's proposal for separate sections for confirmed and implied appearances of characters has been passed, and SM3DW Toad could likely end up in the latter.

Also, even though this wiki is American, we're supposed cover from all sources, no matter what language, right? In that case, I recommend looking at this page looking into Toad's status in Japan. It is implied that Toad's name in Japan refers to them all generally, and not just one character. Maybe this wiki in general is looking at things from the perspective Nintendo didn't mean to, as in certain things referred to with certain pronouns become automatically singular or plural. But if that was the case, then all those old manuals, which referred to many enemies singularly, would be automatically wrong.

Finally, take sprite colors with a grain of salt. Toad was blue in NES SMB2 very likely because of technical limitations, then corrected into red-capped and blue-vested in SNES SMB2, which matches more with his artwork colors. Yet advanced technology didn't stop Iggy Koopa being blue in SNES SMB3. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 10:13, 2 June 2014 (EDT)

My opinion on the "life-long buddy" thing. No other character (including Toad himself) have never said that specifically, however, several Toads have been referred to as Mario's buddy, including Blue and Yellow Toad in NSMB. Also, the point of the Koopa thing is that a single Koopa in Mario Party 9 is referred to as a recurring enemy, despite the specific Koopa not necessarily appearing previously as a recurring enemy. If this logic is used for Toad, then we need a page for a Koopa character who appears in several Mario games as a recurring enemy. Also, like I said above, the SMB2 thing is an absolutely stupid point seeing that Toad was merely blue for graphical limitations (proven by every other character having a blue aura, and additionally Peach has brown hair). This is fixed in remakes (although the Koopalings in SMB3 and SMW aren't...) Nintendo chose Blue Toad as opposed to red in SM3DW as a reference to the graphical limitation, however due to there no longer being a graphical limitation, this is now purposeful. Additionally, with a blue Toad, every character has a unique color (Mario is red, Luigi is green, Peach is pink, Toad is blue, Rosalina is light blue and/or grey), whereas a red Toad would give Mario and Toad the same color. The fire thing is a ridiculous point, and it's possible he appears with that color palette as a reference to Blue and Yellow Toad appearing together constantly as a bit of a combination, and additionally it follows the standard fire palette of red (although, after SMB3, the fire palette has always been red and white instead of red and yellow).

Please read the above. The description of the TPP was written by someone who thinks Blue Toad is the same, and comes off as a bit biased to me. As such I wrote an evenly biased opinion. That way everyone can see the opinions of both sides. :)

Peanutjon (talk) 12:02, 2 June 2014 (EDT)

That wasn't graphical error. Peach was a brunette at the time, that wasn't a mistake. Look at the cartoons, her hair was the same. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 18:38, 2 June 2014 (EDT)
Actually... yes it was. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:51, 3 June 2014 (EDT)

Can we at least move it to the "possible appearances", seeing that (while a good chunk of you are ignoring it) there are several arguments that prove he isn't the Toad, which is about equal to the amount that prove his is? Meanwhile I'm going to find a developer's email. Peanutjon (talk) 13:38, 3 June 2014 (EDT)

How is it equal other than "he is blue" being the only definite proof? He is chosen blue as a throwback to Super Mario Bros. 2, nothing else. It's not that hard to distinguish Mario and Toad, really. Toad was given a blue go-kart, anyway. Also, unlike Koopa Troopa, Toad has appeared as a standalone character. Using your logic, we need Yoshi (character) article. The Koopa is an unspecified generic enemy, never an instance of its appearing more prominently aside from being playable in the spinoffs, so I don't think it's a good example. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 13:42, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
...we have a Yoshi (character) article. Anyhow, this is as much proof as Blue Toad using Yellow Toad's fire. And anyway, Toad was never meant to be a character in Japan, just like Koopa, yet we consider him as a character. I believe he is, unlike Koopa, however this doesn't mean every Toad is THE Toad. I just emailed Nintendo. If they say he is the same, I'll accept it, but fans just like me with proof I've already disproven aren't going to convince me. Peanutjon (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
Just as we have a Toad (character). There isn't any definite proof on your side of the argument (that Toad is never meant to be a character in Japan); you're basing your argument on Japanese grammatical ambiguity. The other side has a plethora of definite info from various bios and even Iwata himself. I'm siding with the latter. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 16:48, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
If Peach's hair was a graphical error, they wouldn't of keep it that way for 3 games. The artwork also would of changed, like what possibly happened with Kirby. Anyway, that's what I think. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 17:36, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
Fun fact: the very original artwork actually depicted her with brown hair, and while some things gave her familiarly yellow hair, other stuff was more ambiguous, and numerous examples of old artwork actually makes her look more strawberry blonde than anything. Of course, at the same time, Bowser was originally a blue-scaled blonde, with bald green sprites - hence his cartoon design was bald and green, same as Peach's red hair coming from her sprite's limited palate. Red hair that, incidentally, also turned up in Nintendo Power's SMB2 stuff, which also depicted Toad as blue, although most art showed him with red spots while some even had Peach as a strawberry blonde again... Anyway, the point is, character designs change and conflict over time, between different sources, when going from game to game, and between different media (sprites vs. artwork vs. cartoons vs. advertising...); inconsistency is inherent when it comes to the Mario series, and it's no use getting fixated on stuff like this because it'll get you no where at all. Just take it with a grain of salt and focus on less slippery facts like bios treating Toad as singular and whatnot. - Walkazo 20:13, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
Any way, your point is that we should get back to Toad issue, not Peach's hair. Sorry. I gotta say though, this seems to fit the subject of what we're talking about, despite not actually proving anything. Anyway, back to the Toad thing. How do you think it looks biased? I need to know so I can change it accordingly. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 22:45, 3 June 2014 (EDT)
Look at it like this: If a Toad is The Toad because he is called Toad, has developers' word behind it and the color change can be justified... then how, currently according to this wiki, can the same not apply to Lakitu (character) being a referee, even when he's called a referee, has developers' word behind it and the color change can be justified? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 10:00, 4 June 2014 (EDT)
Well, Toad has a good reason for being recoloured here, so what would be the reason for Lakitu going from green to red for his two playable appearances? A regular green Lakitu appearing a a ref in the game also makes it a shakier situation than the SM3DW Toad. Still, his official bios talking about how he got tired of refereeing and decided to become a racer, and the singular nature of those earlier referee roles, do lend support to the earlier games being included on the page - at the very least, in "Possible Appearances", although you could maybe argue for full History status too. Just make a TPP and see what happens, if you want. - Walkazo 15:18, 4 June 2014 (EDT)
He's right though, you would need to use all the evidence you can find if you make that a TPP. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 16:41, 4 June 2014 (EDT)
I'm skeptical of the existence of Lakitu (character)'s being its own article anyway. Don't think I have double standards on this issue. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 00:26, 7 June 2014 (EDT)

Nintendo Ends The Argument[edit]

Nintendo finally responded. I asked three different questions (one being Toad, the other two being Yarn Yoshi and Smash Bros. simply as a test to see if it would be a form letter). The person who responded copied my layout in a way only a human can. While they did include some form letter styled stuff (i.e., the beginning, and information about Nintendo's website), I believe this is a human.

Samantha Perry from Nintendo of America explained to me that they do not have any information about which Toad is playable in Super Mario 3D World. In fact, she strongly implied that there is no true Toad character, as it is rumored to be in Japan, in a similar vein to Koopa in Mario Party 9, stating the background stories and other details about characters like this are not usually revealed in games, and are left up to the mind of the fans.

On the other side of the argument, she also strongly implied that Toad changed hat colors with the beginning of the note, stating that she understands "why (I) would be curious to know why the playable Toad character in Super Mario 3D World is blue instead of red," but following it up with "we don't have an answer either way regarding the exact identity of this character".

The exact text of that part of the email is as follows (I removed the introduction and the answers to Yarn Yoshi and Smash Bros., which I may post elsewhere):

1) While I can certainly understand why you would be curious to know why the playable Toad character in Super Mario 3D World is blue instead of red, I'm afraid that we don't have an answer either way regarding the exact identity of this character. Fans are often curious about the background stories and details behind their favorite games and characters. Some answers might be revealed in future games, but many details about our games remain mysteries, left to the active imaginations of our players.

Here's a screenshot (all I did was blur out my email address):

Nintendoemail.png

If you intend to keep this website as accurate as possible, this does mean removing any information about a Toad character (unless outright stated to be a recurring Toad). However, I suggest the minimal modifications to keep it to spinoffs, with possible appearances in main games such as Sunshine, 3D World, and Superstar Saga.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to the Yarn Yoshi talk page. Peanutjon (talk) 15:46, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

...hello? Peanutjon (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

"In fact, she strongly implied that there is no true Toad character, as it is rumored to be in Japan, in a similar vein to Koopa in Mario Party 9, stating the background stories and other details about characters like this are not usually revealed in games, and are left up to the mind of the fans."

"Playable Toad character" does imply Toads are generic, but it can go both ways as well. She can also call him the "playable Toad character" as a general thing, distinguishing him from other Toads, like, you know, Captain Toad.

This letter doesn't confirm anything, really. It's just very ambiguous wording. I don't rely on vague, informal e-mails, and you shouldn't either. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 22:26, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Um what?

1) It is not ambiguous. She flat-out said there is no answer regarding the exact identity of this character.

2) Vague, informal e-mails? Well I'm not ENTIRELY sure what that means. But she was not very vague, as I said above, and the fact that it's informal just confirms to me that she's a human being. If it had been a robotic answer you would argue it's simply a form letter and has no meaning.

The fact is, Nintendo just confirmed that there is no distinction for the Toad character (at least in SM3DW, if not in general). And, although I am fed up with a lot of things right now so my judgement isn't very clear, that response sounds a lot like your clinging to your belief in hopes of finding some loophole, despite being proved wrong. Sorry. Peanutjon (talk) 22:51, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

It is ambiguous. You interpreted the phrase "playable Toad character" as evidence that Toad in Super Mario 3D World is just a generic Toad. I interpreted "playable Toad character" as a mere identifier for Toad.
Vague as in, "very general". Informal as in "partially-automated message from a likely VERY busy hush-hush worker".
Finally.
This doesn't prove anything.
So stop sounding so smug.
Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 23:10, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

Evidence for blue Toad = Toad

  • Official character bios.
  • Nintendo Direct.
  • Iwata himself and developers' words.

Evidence against blue Toad = Toad.

  • E-mail from a busy Nintendo worker (depends on your interpretation of the e-mail's language).
  • He's a different color.
  • Japanese language ambiguity.

I'm still not convinced. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 23:15, 9 June 2014 (EDT)

You've practically lost the proposal that has been made many times before. Give it up. And the fact that this is in English suggests that nobody in that building actually worked on the game. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 01:54, 10 June 2014 (EDT)
Fine. Live in your bubbles where you're right. I know I am, I have official people flat-out saying that I am (instead of being interpreted as saying I am), but if you guys want to pretend you're perfect, I'm fine with that. Idiots. Peanutjon (talk) 11:56, 10 June 2014 (EDT)
...
Your argument is not convincing anyone. This single e-mail will not reverse the outcomes of two proposals. I can go into detail why, but after those hissy, condescending remarks, I have decided that you're not worth my (or anyone's) time to argue with.
Have a good day.
Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 14:24, 11 June 2014 (EDT)
Try living my life. See if you don't make a condescending remark when people annoy you even a little.
Anyway.
While you're right, this is a customer service worker who knows very little, what she said fits in with what the other proof says perfectly to make one simple story. If, like she says, there is no distinction for this character, any referring of "Toad" refers to nothing more than Toad. And even if she doesn't know the full story, this is the only story that gives any specific proof of anything. All other "proof" is simply how someone perceives it- I, and anyone who agrees with me, perceive that since Toad doesn't change colors, it must be separate. You, and anyone who agrees with you, perceive that since he is referred to as simply "Toad", he must be the same as the other characters referred to as Toad. This, no matter how you perceive it, says specifically that there is no distinction. Therefore, even if it's wrong, it is the only specific proof we have, and while it may be given by an unimportant person in Nintendo, she is still a person in Nintendo, and therefore probably knows more than we do.
TLDR version: Even if she's wrong, she's the only thing or person who has said anything absolutely SPECIFIC.
The only reason I even said all of this is because I refuse to leave this conversation as an idiotic noob. Now I'm leaving as someone who has his own beliefs. Adios! Peanutjon (talk) 17:42, 11 June 2014 (EDT)
Is this the same person who said Yarn Yoshi AKA Yoshi's Woolly World may or may not exist? Zakor1138 (talk) 16:01, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
Yes, it's the same person relying on individual e-mails as cold, hard proof. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 16:11, 13 June 2014 (EDT)
Plus, after seeing how the "rumor" thing has been recently, thoroughly debunked with new footage and information from E3 2014, it makes e-mails from Nintendo much less reliable, and thus, further weakens the argument. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 16:21, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Three questions[edit]

Three questions:

  1. Where does this "Toad was recolored blue as a nod to SMB2" BS come from? Just fan speculation?
  2. .Since we're going with this baseless "Toad can randomly change his color" nonsense, does that mean that one of the Toads in the NSMB games should be considered Toad now?
  3. Since Nintendo hasn't given word on whether the SM3W Toad is Toad, why not leave it ambiguous in the article? Taking it for granted when there's no real official answer is inaccurate and makes the article fanfiction-ish. - Redz (talk) 10:23, 5 July 2014 (EDT)

For the first two are in agreement, but in Super Mario 3D World is simply called the Blue Toad Toad. Although honestly I think Captain Toad Toad is the original, there would be evidence, however, given that before founding the Toad Brigade, its members were Toad common. However, even this could be because it will not controindicativo is never specified that he is Toad. At the same time, however, there is an artwork of Super Mario Galaxy 2 in which Captain Toad does not have his costume explorer. Honestly, I'm undecided as to which of the two is the "real" Toad.--Sonic98 (talk) 14:00, 5 July 2014 (EDT)

I hate to throw more fuel into fire, but...[edit]

I found this interview where Nintendo of Canada's spokeperson Matt Ryan talked about upcoming games, including Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker. This is what he said:

"Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker will be a full standalone retail game. It won’t just be a fleshed out mini-game. We’ve actually only shown a little bit of the game so far. There’s a lot more we haven’t shown yet. The game is very “Nintendo”. It brings Toad into the foreground as the star of his own game, because until now he’s just been given side character roles. And because he’s the focus, the gameplay revolves around his personality and play-style, similarly. You’ve got to deal with the “Toad” physics – he’s slower, he doesn’t jump, he’s weighed down by the backpack, he’s smaller. And because of that, there’s this whole puzzle environment which is different than how Mario would deal with obstacles. You’ll have to solve puzzles and learn to avoid obstacles. It’s a much more evolved version of the mini-game levels you played in the past. So, it’s hard to compare it to a Mario Galaxy or 3D World, because the gameplay is very different. This is more of a puzzle-platformer. But in terms of content, this is definitely a fully fleshed out retail game."

I think the bolded part is notable because it talks just about Toad, who is finally the star of his own game (Wario's Woods notwithstanding). This would make Captain Toad The Toad. On this wiki, however, The Toad and Captain Toad aren't the same character because evidence and names, but that doesn't seem to matter in this statement.

What do you make out of this? SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 08:46, 6 August 2014 (EDT)

  1. Captain Toad appears in the same game as Toad
  2. It refers to Captain Toad in saying "his only game"
Like you brought out, Toad has been up in his own game before, Therefore it merely abbreviated Captain Toad to Toad. I don't think this proves anything. - Ninelevendo.png BlueLightning.png 16:58, 6 August 2014 (EDT)
It's "his own game", and while Toad was a hero in Wario's Woods, he was more like a co-star with the villainous Wario. That would still make Treasure Tracker the first game where any Toad is the main star in their completely own game. And I actually believe that this statement refers to Toad in general, not some specified one. SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 07:22, 7 August 2014 (EDT)

Mario U is a Mario Baseball game?![edit]

Under the Mario Baseball series section, why is NSMBU listed? There's nothing about baseball! Big Face.png Unshy Guy 20:20, 18 August 2014 (EDT)

The section was misplaced, but it's fixed now. - Walkazo 15:29, 19 August 2014 (EDT)

Secret revealed by Nintendo about Toad[edit]

Nintendo revealed that Toad doesn't have a gender --0551E80Y (talk) 09:53, 6 December 2014 (EST)

You need to source these kind of things. Hello, I'm Time Turner.
Ask and ye shall receive. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:00, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Merge Toad to Toad (Species)[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

don't merge 2-13

This has gone on for far too long. All this talk about "this toad is the Toad" "no this toad is the Toad" has to stop. Enough is enough! Nintendo isn't making it easier by changing their story all the time on whether or not there is a singular Toad. I think the safest thing to do is exactly what my proposal says. We need to merge this article to the article for the species, and if there's anything in the article about one of the toads that's often confused to be Toad, we can move that information there.

If this proposal passes, I will make similar proposals for Yoshi, Birdo, and Kamek (although I don't really know about Kamek since the English for the species is Magikoopa).

Proposer: Magikrazy (talk)
Deadline: December 20, 2014, 23:59 GMT.

No Toad, merge with species[edit]

  1. SmokedChili (talk) Well this is a surprise, someone actually did what I would have done. Nevertheless, I might as well be the only other person to support this. From what I've seen, the majority of these "the" Toad appearances and bios are the result of this Wiki's intepretation. What exactly gives "the" Toad his distinct persona again? His name? Interchangable with other Toads. His personality? Not much different from generic Toads. The use of pronoun "he"? Besides gender (note: Toads are sexless, not genderless) and specifics, that's applicable to generic Toads. The bios? When generic enemies have their own bios which treat them as their own characters, this point is moot. The appearance? Okay, this might have some merit, but that's only depending on the game. I don't count games where multiple Toads with the standard look appear, and I'm still skeptical about games where only one Toad with the standard look is playable, because in Mario games, the standard look gets usually priority, expections including 3D World and Sticker Star. As I said in the deleted Toad related proposal, I consider the Japanese Mario fans lucky, because they aren't bothered to argue about which Toad is "the" Toad, because to them it seems clear the generic Toads don't have much going for them.
  2. Aokage (talk) The "3D World Blue Toad = the Toad" decision is a prime example of how people are just labeling whichever Toad they want as the Toad. Had they known Captain Toad was going to get a bigger role in his own game, they probably would've wanted him to be the Toad instead. It's clear that Nintendo - especially NoJ - doesn't really have this concept of "Toad the Toad".

There is a Toad, keep[edit]

  1. Baby Luigi (talk) Though the issue is very muddled, this is a very radical decision and will affect a ton of articles on the wiki. Nevertheless, there are countless sources where Toad is portrayed as his own character. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show is one of them, as well as numerous character bios. I'm not going to much detail about this but there is indeed a Toad that exists and this route is just the easiest route that will simply cause more controversy than there already is.
  2. Time Turner (talk) Regardless of who's who, there's still clearly is an individual Toad that has appeared throughout the games: Super Mario Bros. 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, Super Mario 64 and its remake, Wario's Woods, the cartoons, the comics, all of the spin-offs, and probably some other stuff... Vaporizing all of that individuality because of some tussling between newer games is an extreme absolute that would cause so much more of a mess than it's worth.
  3. Mario (talk) I'm not comfortable with this change. As opposers said, Toad does have his own identity, and I'd rather not sacrifice individuality just because he looks the same. We have a good compromise called the "Possible appearances", which should do its job at this confusion. I don't see any problem with what we're working with, and I feel that there's no need to change it.
  4. LinkTheLefty (talk) Per all. I haven't been following the Blue Toad/Captain Toad debacle too closely, but it wouldn't change Toad's history.
  5. Toadbrigade5 (talk) There is a Toad species, and a Toad. This has been confirmed in every game. We are not to change the facts of a game. And shame you for even trying to. We might merge Mario and Human if we do this. Thats like merging you and user. Seriously, this is STUPID. And per all.
  6. Walkazo (talk) - Per Baby Luigi, Time Turner and Mario. The non-game media are just as relevant as the games, and both they and earlier games have singular Toad characters. Nowadays we also have Captain Toad and a Blue Toad filling the roles that the Toad had before: it confuses the issue, but it doesn't invalidate the old appearances, and the best thing to do with the mess is to cover everything with as little judgment calls as possible using the Possible Appearances section and three separate pages for the three possible "personas" Nintendo picks from. Merging the Toad's character page would be going in the complete opposite direction if we want to be thorough and transparent.
  7. 3D Player 2004 (talk) Per Walkazo.
  8. Ghost Jam (talk) Per Walkazo.
  9. Sonic98 (talk) Per all.
  10. Madz the Penguin (talk) There is "the Toad". It's confirmed in Mario Kart games, Mario Party games, Mario shows, etc. He might be hard to find, but he's there. Also, if we merge Toad and his species, then we may have tons of ridiculous debates like, "should we merge Toadette with Toad species? Toad was merged, and there are tons of Toadettes out there!".
  11. BabyLuigi64 (talk) We know there is "the" Toad because we see him (it?) enough, and we know when we see "the" Toad because there is something to distinguishing him from other red-spot-capped Toads, and that is his blue vest. We know he's not just another random Toad. Per the above.
  12. Magikrazy (talk) Ok, so I was incorrect. I have since realized that Toad's Japanese name is different from the other toads. Knowing this, I believe that the toad with the blue mushroom cap and vest is Toad, and Captain Toad is not.
  13. Paper Iggy Koopa (talk) Per All, this article will become improperly grammimatical due to the fact saying "Toad is toad" every 5 seconds of reading

Comments[edit]

I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. Even if they did, nowhere is it mentioned that the toad in one episode or issue is the same in the others. Is it because they have the same look and voice? A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird. As for the games, some of them have a lone toad in them, but it never states that all these are the same toad. The fact they're all referred to as Toad shows that they're all just generic toads and should be treated as such. Magikrazy (talk)

First of all, canonicity anywhere near the Mario series is completely irrelevant and generally not a good practice, but besides that, the Toad that appears in all of these mediums are never referred to as a Toad (which would lead to the thought process that the Toads are merely generic), only simply as Toad, heavily implying, if not outright confirming, that these Toads are all one and the same. Hello, I'm Time Turner.
"A lot of the birds by my house look and sound the same, but that doesn't mean they're all one bird."
Um, you're not getting it. We're not arguing that all Toads are clones of Toad himself. Toad, however, is indistinguishable from every other Toad, which makes it confusing, but he still has his own identity.
A better analogy is this: there are a lot of crows around my house. They all look the same, but one recognizes me when I leave out peanuts in the yard, and is distinguishable because the bird always comes here at the same time of the day. But really, who knows if it's a pair of clever crows instead? But the crow is still a notable individual that can be confused with her peers, hence why we have an article on Toad. Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 17:50, 6 December 2014 (EST)

"I'll have more to say later when I can get to a computer. All that I'll say for now is that the cartoons, comics, etc are not canon and shouldn't count. "

Even if we accept that premise, the wiki still covers characters for the cartoon/comics/movie and thus Toad would still warrant a page because he's clearly treated as an individual character in those. --Glowsquid (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2014 (EST)

@Toadbrigade: I suggest you leave out "this is stupid" remarks since Magikrazy does have a logical reason for attempting to merge the page. Merging "Mario and Human" is a very poor analogy to this as Mario is clearly his own identity while Toad is something far more ambigious. BabyLuigiFire.png(T|C) 19:21, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Sorry, I was mad. This is kinda sabotaging my favorite character, but I'm not changing it. Also, DOES he have a logical reason? I seriously doubt it (No offense intended). My examples suck I understand, but still. Toadbrigade5 (talk) 21:31, 6 December 2014 (EST)
As I have said, yes, his reason is logical, even though it is highly flawed. Toad being his own character is a very ambiguous issue that Nintendo is still pretty foggy about, hence why we still have debates about Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World being Toad and what not. Just as Koopa Troopa doesn't have its own character article and neither does Lakitu, Toad can fall under their scope in not receiving his own article. The problem with Magikrazy's logic, as we all had stated, is that Toad is most certainly established in some games as his own character, whereas Koopa Troopa and Lakitu are not compared to Toad. BabyLuigiFire.png(T|C) 21:40, 6 December 2014 (EST)

Supporters seem to think that Japanese games never made it clear there was an individual Toad, but there already was a singular "Kinopio" character in at least Super Mario RPG and the Super Mario Bros. anime (and perhaps other spinoff examples). LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:39, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Cartoons and comics are considered canon because Mario is a very different franchise. It's not like the Legend of Zelda where it has a very clear timeline where non-canon things (like Hyrule Warriors, Faces of Evil, and Wands of Gamelon) aren't there. Mario's timeline is very vague, so it's safe to say everything Mario, even Hotel Mario, is canon, except for fanmade works on Fanfiction or other websites like that. Madz the Penguin (talk) 12:08, 7 December 2014 (EST)

Comment spree~

  • @Baby Luigi: If establishing a generic member as "the" member means single pronouns and whatnot, then by all means most of enemies listed in these manuals should get singular character treatment. It's not just old manuals, as some of the playable characters have bios which give them "the" character treatment, yet we don't give them their "the" character pages like "the" Toad because... why?
  • @Time Turner: So are Toads in SM3DW Toad Houses simply called Toads, both on official European site and in the soundtrack description.
  • @Mario: A crow with unique demeanor is more comparable to Toadette or Toadsworth rather than "the" Toad behavior wise, because they are more fleshed out in that department. Besides, is the behavior the result of special treatment? It can be said that Toadette and Toadsworth got special treatment for their designs, but "the" Toad, said to be distinguished from other generic Toads, is still very generic with no notable differences. He's practically replacable to the point of nothing of value being lost if a Toad posing as "the" Toad was actually there.
  • @LinkTheLefty: What exactly are these pics supposed to prove, especially the second one? Just because a Kinopio is called "Kinopio" it doesn't make him "the" Kinopio. And what makes one of those anime Kinopios "the" Kinopio? Her prominence over the others? Or her mere presence? Yes, I'm calling that Kinopio "her", because that's what she is there.

That's all folks. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 18:59, 7 December 2014 (EST)

@SmokedChili: The first picture proves that Kinopio is treated in Super Mario RPG in the same way that Toad is treated in our version - as a single recurring character. His dialog box uniquely identifies him even among a small crowd, and doesn't apply to any other generic Toads that show up (also noted when he's not in the castle). In addition, his species is unnamed in that particular appearance, so at least as far as that game's story is concerned, there is only one Toad/Kinopio. As for the anime film, that retainer says his/her/its name is Kinopio, and (if memory serves) the other members of the species are called mushroom people by the sage character. You might consider these artistic licenses, but it is what it is. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:16, 7 December 2014 (EST)

So if some generic Toad is called "Toad", that's automatic evidence for "the" Toad? And if キノコー族 "Mushroom People" is used of them, then there has to be the specific キノピオ Kinopio? I find that questionable. キノコー族 refers to the entirety of Toads, which includes the generic Toads, Toadette, Toadsworth etc. Invidual generic Toads are still called キノピオ, which makes it more likely that there are multiple unspecific Toads than "the" Toad somewhere. Check the Japanese Mario 3 manual for example. In it, Kinopio is said to wish good luck to the Mario Bros. along with Peach, yet there are multiple キノピオの家 Kinopio Houses found in the game. So where is "the" Kinopio then? Related to that, in 3D World, we have at least two Kinopios: the playable one, and one in Kinopio House going by this. If the color change is justified, then either could "the" Kinopio, or not. And considering more and more evidence points to Captain Kinopio being "the" Kinopio, conflicting with 3D World Kinopio being him, it could be said that "the" Kinopio's status in 3D World is indefinite. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 09:13, 8 December 2014 (EST)
You're looking at the series as a whole; I'm looking at specific instances and thinking, "what does that particular story consider these characters?" It's fairly obvious that the writers of Super Mario RPG deliberately interpreted Toad/Kinopio as a name for one character. Like I stated as my stance, new information doesn't outright rewrite history - if the creators want to make certain things their "current story", it is so, but it doesn't completely replace the old one. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:42, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@Magikrazy, you weren't incorrect. Toads, excluding the the few named ones such as Toadette and Toadsworth, are all known as Kinopios in Japan. Aokage (talk) 10:14, 8 December 2014 (EST)

@LinkTheLefty: Of course new info doesn't outright rewrite history, but it doesn't take out the fact that generic Toads' inviduality among each other hasn't been that clear since day one. Super Mario RPG may be an expection, but expections shouldn't warrant their own pages for the sake of clarification. Like the Flopsy Fish article. It's redundant in the presence of the Cheep Cheep article, which already acknowledges that "Flopsy Fish" is just an alternative name. Likewise, Toad (species) article can mention in case of merging that there is one Toad who is called "Toad" in Super Mario RPG. It wouldn't be that different from how the Cheep Cheep deals with Flopsy Fish, and doesn't downright rewrite history. -SmokedChili (Talk) (Thoughts) 11:36, 8 December 2014 (EST)

Hebrew name[edit]

In the Hebrew dub of TSMBSS, he is called פטריון (Pitrion). RaguRando (talk) 14:30, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

Does it mean anything in particular, or is it a common Hebrew name? Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 14:42, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
It's based on the word פטרייה (Pitriya, mushroom). RaguRando (talk) 15:51, 13 September 2015 (EDT)
Okay, that's interesting. Thanks for the info! Mario Green.pngKaBoom! 16:01, 13 September 2015 (EDT)

3D Land Toad[edit]

Why is the SM3DW's playable Toad considered the original Toad? It's much more likely that Captain Toad is the same as this page's red Toad. If anything this blue Toad is just a filler playable character to replace the now independent original.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by anjeronett (talk).

At this point, it seems more like there just plain isn't a Toad character, and all the ones that have ever been identified as such are just generic members of the species. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:44, 19 February 2018 (EST)
Without delving in that definitely hot topic, the reason is that even the Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. names the Toad of Super Mario 3D World 「キノピオ」, rather than 「あおキノピオ」, the name of Blue Toad. And after all, Toad in Super Mario Bros. 2 was fully blue, and it's pretty clear that the characters' part of Super Mario 3D World was inspired by that game. Anyway, regarding the matter of Captain Toad, there is this very interesting excerpt from the Super Mario Pia, the 25th anniversary memorial book, which was translated by 2257 (talk):

キノピオ
キノコ王国の住人たち。ピーチをさらわれてマリオに助けを求めるのがお約束のシリーズを代表するキャラで、赤色や黄色などカラーはさまざま。また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。
登場作品 SM, SM2, SM3, USA, SM64, SMS, NSM, SMG, NSMW, SMG2, 3DL, NSM2, NSMU, 3DW

Toad
The inhabitants of the Mushroom Kingdom. Seeking Mario's help when Peach has been kidnapped is a typical characteristic representing this series [of characters], and they come in various colors such as red and yellow. Also, there are some who have unique names, such as Toadsworth, Captain Toad, and the like.
Appears in works: SMB, SMBTLL, SMB3, SMB2, SM64, SMS, NSMB, SMG, NSMBW, SMG2, SM3DL, NSMB2, NSMBU, SM3DW.

Captain Toad, who has his own entry in the characters' section of the book, is not considered the same as Toad in that he has a unique name which is not just Toad, and now he has his own appearance too.--Mister Wu (talk) 19:16, 21 March 2018 (EDT)
This section also does not seem to be referring to the "character" of "Toad," given that there was no specified "character" named that in most of those games, while NSMB just had multiple copies of Toadsworth outside of minigames. As such, it doesn't really imply that it is the same "character," but rather that there is no consistent "character." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:18, 10 April 2018 (EDT)

It was confirmed that toads "cap" cannot be removed[edit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVNYfoFcrZY is my source. as far as i can tell, this is nintendo's official youtube.(it's a copy/paste link, not sure it will work)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Random (talk).

Already in the article. Alex95sig1.pngAlex95sig2.png 17:24, 23 February 2018 (EST)

Split Toad (item) from Toad[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

merge to 1-Up Mushroom 4-5-0

Despite the fact that the Hotel Mario manual describes the Toad item as "TOAD" himself, it describes this as awkwardly as the aforementioned game itself. This specific "mushroom" isn't even a character, and barely even resembles Toad - it's just an item that grants an extra life when Fire Mario stands near an open door. Considering we've recently re-split Morty Mole from Mega Mole, I think I'm seeing a similar case here (especially revolving around 1-Up Mushrooms), and would like to hear users' opinions on this.

Proposer: Toadette the Achiever (talk)
Deadline: April 10, 2018, 23: 59 GMT

Split into its own article[edit]

  1. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per proposal.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) This is basically an interpreted composite of both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom to the point that it barely resembles either and would be better off in its own article. Per Toadette.
  3. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) When replacing the sprite back in 2016, I found it strange to be put in the main Toad article. I didn't question it because I didn't know much about it and Hotel Mario is an obscure title that Nintendo doesn't even want to consider canon, let alone fans. I was just concerned about replacing the sprite at the time. Splitting makes sense, now the topic has been revisited. I had since forgotten about it.
  4. Baby Luigi (talk) Per all.

Merge over to 1-Up Mushroom[edit]

  1. Waluigi Time (talk) Based on the 1-Up alternatively being called Extra Mario Mushroom in SMW, I'm more in favor of a merge with 1-Up Mushroom.
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per my comments.
  3. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  4. Wildgoosespeeder (talk) At the time of my previous vote, this option didn't exist. I am also OK with this option because the Hotel Mario Toad behaves like a 1-Up Mushroom.
  5. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.

Do nothing[edit]

Comments[edit]

The game's version of Banzai Bill isn't that much bigger than than a usual Bullet Bill (or really any different design-wise for that matter), but still we stick to how Fantasy Factory / Philips Media presented their game. I think the question is, why should we change what's already there in print? (And how is this similar to the Mega Mole / Morty Mole situation?) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:38, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

May I see a scan of the infamous enclosed instruction book so I can be absolutely sure what this says? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:17, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

This was what the manual read: "If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom. He gives Mario an extra life." I don't actually own the manual, but here's a link to it. Hope that helps! MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 17:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
And the "Mario's Friends" section just says "Toad" and annunciates the sentence as if it were a character. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
That's not to say that we have the Toad move split from the character. MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 17:49, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Well, I actually just went ahead and scanned the relevant pages in my own manual, but looks like there is no need to upload it anymore (mine is apparently a European copy with three more languages, and for some reason, Monty Mole is missing from the English instructions but still there in the other three, among other oddities). I do want to point out, though, that "Coins", "Super Mushroom", "Fire Flower", and "Star Man" are also listed as "Mario's Friends" in the manual, and those can't really be considered characters. On the other hand, it's called "Toad" more than once in the manual, and it appears in different circumstances than a normal 1-Up Mushroom. Just to clarify, this proposal would turn Extra Mario Mushroom into its own article separate from both Toad and 1-Up Mushroom, correct? LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Yes it would, but see my reply to Doc below. MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 18:54, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Also want to point out, "Extra Mario Mushroom" is an alternate name for the 1up Mushroom used in Super Mario World. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Then maybe it should be called Toad (item) instead...? MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 18:41, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

@Link-the-Lefty Then what to do about the game's Banzai Bill, which resembles the actual Banzai Bill even less than this resembles the standard 1up? The original 1up was primarily orange, and it was red in SMB2, just a reminder. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

It is still a little bit bigger than Mario, whereas in most 2D games, Bullet Bill is approximately the size of Small Mario. Besides, a lot of the game's enemy designs are off-model anyway. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Just as every Super Mario World sprite is off-model, and anyways, none of the enemies are any more off-model than this game's "Extra Mario Mushroom." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:58, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
The difference between this item/"character" and everything else in the game is that it is officially given two different names, which are otherwise consistently depicted as two entirely separate subjects everywhere else in the series without exception, as opposed to an unambiguous single name that would place it in one article in a very straightforward manner. LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:20, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
I see that as more unnecessary obfuscation. It has two names typically reserved for two different things, yes, but it follows the function of one of those things fairly well, and in fact moreso than the counterpart of Wiggler in that game. This should become a multi-option proposal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:03, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
But it's not like it's only referred to as Toad only once and it never comes up again; it's first seen under Extra Mario Mushroom, where it's described as "TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom" in the same sentence, and then it's switched to Toad in the rest of the manual when it's listed among the other friendly items. This looks like it's a combination of both concepts. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:10, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Except the only thing it borrows from the concept of the character is the name, though I suppose you could stretch the color in as well. This honestly seems to need what currently is happening between Block Boo and Red Boo (while those need switched around). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:34, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
But even if it is indeed closer to one of them over the other in practice, it's still different enough from your average 1-Up Mushroom. "If Fire Mario opens a door with a Super Mushroom behind it, the mushroom turns into TOAD, an Extra Mario Mushroom." It is directly part of the game's power-up chain (ie. Super Mushroom and Fire Flower), which is never the case in any other game. "Toad looks similar to the Super Mushroom but moves faster." That is a completely unique characteristic exclusive to this appearance. LinkTheLefty (talk) 21:50, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
As is the behavior of Wiggler in this game, which is outright incompatible with other appearances so behavior doesn't have much ground to stand on, as it's far more similar than some other things the game throws at us. As for what I was talking about with the Boos, currently, the info for the SMS enemy is on Red Boo while Block Boo has a link to that section, while it should be reversed, and I think that hear, the information should be on 1up Mushroom, as that's what it is, and is just as different from normal as the ones from SMB2 were. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:30, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
The focus here is on the items/"friends", not the enemies. Coins, Super Mushroom, Fire Flower, and "Star Man" are all clearly the same thing as their normal counterparts (even if Super Mario has a different appearance to better suit the gameplay). Toad / Extra Mario Mushroom is definitely the outlier of the five. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:48, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
I believe all gameplay elements should be treated equally regarding support for arguments. Because they should. Saying "one's an enemy and the other's helpful" has no bearing on whether something should be considered more different from their respective normal version. I think you were more on point eight years ago when you said "Go with what's recognizable. We're not creating a separate page for Skeleton Koopa, for example," or something to that effect. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
All right, then, how would you write Hotel Mario's Toad or 1-Up Mushroom in a way that doesn't rely on personal assumptions to discredit the other as mistaken? LinkTheLefty (talk) 23:15, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
I would include it within the 1-up Mushroom article, as functionally, that's what it is, and is given a name for that very item at the time, not to mention being a Mushroom item that gives an extra life. I would put a Template:Template in a Hotel Mario section on Toad's page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:46, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
This results in overlap, which splitting resolves. LinkTheLefty (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
It doesn't if the statement on Toad's page goes as "According to the game's manual, the Extra Mario Mushroom is the same as Toad, despite the many irreconcilable differences between the character and item." Then, the ado about needing to be Fire Mario would go on the 1-Up page. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:10, 28 March 2018 (EDT)
However this proposal turns out, we're both in agreement that it doesn't belong in the Toad article (at least primarily), yes? So to that end, I would concur that an extra option for moving to the 1-Up Mushroom page should be included. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:32, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time: How does that help anything? MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 19:45, 27 March 2018 (EDT)

Probably due to sharing at least a name as well as a function. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:47, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
Yeah...even so, it was found that "Extra Mario Mushroom" is only used once to describe the Toad items in the manual, and "Toad" is used far more often. And also take note that we have 1 UP Heart even though they look near-identical to other Hearts and function identical to 1-Up Mushrooms. MLPJToadetteWink.gif ToadettetheAchiever 22:07, 27 March 2018 (EDT)
To me it seems more like Hotel Mario's weird version of the 1-up than its own item and would make more sense there. However I still don't think it belongs on this page, since it's definitely not Toad the character. --MK8DX Waluigi Icon.png Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:08, 28 March 2018 (EDT)

Might I ask you if you can explain more clearly in the introduction why you consider this case similar to the one of Morty Moles? In that case the official name was clearly different. Here, it's the appearance and role which is clearly different, while the official name is the same. I'm guessing that you see the similarity because the internal name of Morty Moles is the official name of Mega Moles, Indy, but I think it would be better if we could know that.--Mister Wu (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2018 (EDT)

Reopening a can of worms[edit]

Since Yellow Toad seems to be referred to as simply Toad in NSMBU Deluxe, where Blue Toad is absent, is it possible that "Toad" in SM3DW actually is Blue Toad, and Nintendo didn't feel the need to distinguish between the two because Yellow Toad was absent in that game? --MK8DX Waluigi Icon.png Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:15, 25 December 2018 (EST)

Remember that Super Mario 3D World was inspired by the NES version of Super Mario Bros. 2, in which Toad was fully blue. His name in both the Nintendo Official Guidebook, the Japanese site as well as the Japanese Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. is just Kinopio, and that carried over in NA material as well. As far as I know, we don't have evidence that he was just meant to be Blue Toad - since the Japanese encycloepdia clearly separated Ao Kinopio from KinopioMedia:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg, they should have used Ao Kinopio in the Super Mario 3D World section. If you want to dig deeper, you'll find that Kinopio in Japan actually means Toad, a Toad and even the Toads, and you'll soon discover that happened with Yellow Toad's name in New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe is likely just the consequence of a true can of worms that Nintendo revealed in a now obscure game and that we can't face right now, due to its far reaching implications. In any case, as far as Super Mario 3D World is concerned, we don't really have any source that points to him being a non-renamed Blue Toad rather than just Toad with a reference to how he looked in Super Mario Bros. 2.--Mister Wu (talk) 10:58, 26 December 2018 (EST)
I'll further add that since in the Japanese site of New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe Toad is correctly reported as Kiiro Kinopio (= Yellow Toad), we have even less reasons to open can of worms right now!--Mister Wu (talk) 11:09, 26 December 2018 (EST)
Kinopio was heard in the Nintendo Direct, and for the record, while the Super Mario 3D World character is plainly labeled as "Kinopio" everywhere including the game files, that model is renamed "KinopioBlue" in Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker (as Captain Toad, who was "KinopioBrigade" internally, now takes the generic "Kinopio" slot). LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:26, 26 December 2018 (EST)
This is an interesting finding, thanks for telling us. As you pointed out that's likely due to internal renaming and due to them giving the Kinopio name much less weight than we do here so that individual characters can be named Kinopio without this having any particular implications beside indicating the species they belong to. Still, considering how the Blue Toad is consistently referred to as Kinopio in both official material and even files of the game and is thus known as Toad here in the West, I'm not sure if this internal renaming can lead to particular consequences on our side, or be just another case in which Nintendo is pointing out how we should probably have a different approach toward the characters named Kinopio - something I'm very interested in but I don't think we are ready for right now.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)
The Mii dialogue is clearly false though, as we've had several named Toad characters in the RPGs, not to mention Toadette. --MK8DX Waluigi Icon.png Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:03, 26 December 2018 (EST)
That's likely a side effect of the translation, as Nintendo itself in the Super Mario Pia confirmed that a few Toads, such as Captain Toad and Toadsworth, have a unique name (「また、キノじいやキノピオ隊長など固有の名前をもつものもいる。」). I'll try to get the original Japanese text so we can see the actual meaning (very likely that Kinopio isn't really a personal name, but rather a species name, just like how the Super Mario Pia indicates how some Toads have a unique name).--Mister Wu (talk) 12:17, 26 December 2018 (EST)
Well, the actual Japanese text is:

キノピオには、さまざまなのキノピオがいてその全部して「キノピオ」ってうんだ。

でもどのキノピオも、とっても真面目礼儀正しいんだよ!

I think the main misunderstanding is that the text talks about there being different Toads of various colors who are all known as Toad - not that all Toads have Toad as their name.--Mister Wu (talk) 12:43, 26 December 2018 (EST)
I'm not sure that necessarily changes anything. Using this, we could say that Yellow Toad and Blue Toad are both simply named Toad, with the colors being mentioned to differentiate themselves from each other, making the SM3DW Toad very possibly Blue Toad. --MK8DX Waluigi Icon.png Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:46, 26 December 2018 (EST)
What changes is our approach toward characters named Toad/Kinopio. The material from Nintendo suggests that we should give less weight to that name as we do now, as characters can be named Toad with that name just telling us the species they belong to - actually, they are now telling us that sometimes even the color is omitted and, as such, what would normally be called Blue Toad or Yellow Toad can sometimes be named just Toad! However, as of now, we assume that all characters named just Toad are the same character, and we add a new entry in the main page every time this happens. I think we'd need a proposal to change that and that would be a true can of worms, as you can easily guess.--Mister Wu (talk) 13:00, 26 December 2018 (EST)

Nintendo Comics System[edit]

Is it just me, or are there way too many words dedicated to the Nintendo Comics System section? There's full-on in-depth plot synopses there, and they're written pretty terribly (presumably by somebody not fluent in English). Should we trim these down a bit? Shadow2 (talk) 03:11, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Maybe, but it is about the only time he's had anything resembling character depth, so it'd make sense for it to be a larger section, just not that large. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 03:35, 10 February 2019 (EST)