Talk:Goomboss

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Who races the Goomba King in the mission mode of Mario Kart DS? --Son of Suns 19:20, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Toad. I added the info in. :) -Wayoshi 19:34, 26 June 2006 (EDT)

Mario Kart DS[edit]

I've never played Mario Kart DS, but does the game ever say that Goomboss and the Goomba King are the same person? --Yoshi626A Yoshi's Egg in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!. 16:02, 16 January 2007 (EST)

No game does, it is heavily implied, just like it is implied Chubbies are Monty Moles. -- Son of Suns
I agree, but how come this is different? --Yoshi626A Yoshi's Egg in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!. 16:20, 16 January 2007 (EST)
Because in SM64 (the original version) there was an enemy named "Big Boo". The Big Boo from SM64 DS could be this same Big Boo, but it is likely King Boo, a different character. There was no Goomboss or Goomba King in the original version of SM64. -- Son of SUns
Huh, I never thought of it like that. Thanks. --Yoshi626A Yoshi's Egg in Mario Kart: Double Dash!!. 16:42, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Anybody notice that in MKDS, he has white eyebrows while in Paper Mario, they are just black. Has this Goomba aged?Knife (talk)

It's been over 5 years since Gooma King last attacked so yeah. Paper Jorge

Goomboss[edit]

We should change this to Goomboss. I haven't seen him called Goomba King since Paper Mario. Our Blooper page isn't called Bloober, is it?!? Parayoshiicon.jpgPara Yoshi Wahoo!Parayoshiicon.jpg 20:32, 17 January 2007 (EST)

Good point. But please, try to make your screenshots a bit less fuzzier.. 3dhammer.gif 3D, who needs to make his scans better! 3dhammer.gif
I have a Mac and OF COURSE they don't make screenshot processors for MAC!!!!!!! I have to stick with a regular camera. <:( Parayoshiicon.jpgPara Yoshi Wahoo!Parayoshiicon.jpg 20:35, 17 January 2007 (EST)
My digital camera won't take screenshots AT ALL. And I'm stuck with a Windows! 3dhammer.gif 3D, if Windows was a toaster company, everybody would hate it, but all the good bread would only work with Windows! 3dhammer.gif
I argue with the first comment. He was first Goomba King in his first appearance. He had a crown and King-like clothes. His original name is Goomba King. --General Kelty 18:08, 7 April 2007 (EDT)
I think the newest name should be the title. That's how it works at Wikipedia anyway.
I am Confused 12:07, 8 April 2007 (EDT)

Goomboss=Goomba King?[edit]

How do we know that Goomba King has changed his name from Goomba King and Goomboss? Sure they look the same, but is there any proof at all saying that Goomboss is the same as Goomba King?
I am Confused 22:04, 21 April 2007 (EDT)

Aside from their near identical appearance, no, theres no real proof; so, what should be done about this? -- Sir Grodus

State that it is implied they are the same. -- Son of Suns

Just say that in PM, he was known as Goomba king, but is now known as Goomboss. 3dhammer.gif 3D, EZ. 3dhammer.gif

They are defintaly the same guys. his basic appearence could be coincidence but they have the same color striped pants to.-Pal101

Just one question: if the "Goomba King" was enlarged by the Star Rod, how could he be Goomboss, if Super Mario 64 DS takes place chronologically BEFORE Paper Mario? If that question could be answered, I'd bet few people would have any more problems with it. That's not to say I don't agree with the merge, though- I'd just like that explained. Dinosaur bob 12:07, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Aside from appearence they do have more similarities. They both semm insane. They both stomp back and forth and watch both there eyes. They go up and down alot. Also Super Mario 64 and Super Mario 64 DS are different enough to be considered two seperet incidents.-Pal101

I am glad you have an open mind about it though {{User:Pal101))

Honestly, I consider SM64DS a remake, telling an updated version of the same events- or better yet, sort of a Special Edition. Dinosaur bob 20:53, 26 May 2007 (EDT)

Okay so we may never truly know. Lets bug Nintendo about it until they give us the answer. User:Pal101

Did Bowser ever say he enlarged the Goomba King with the Star Rod? I believe these are the only lines of dialogue where Bowser mentions the Goomba King's power.

Bowser: "What? Unbelievable! What was the Goomba King thinking? I used the Star Rod to make him a King because he begged me...And Mario whips him so easily? What a wimp!! Uh...Kammy Koopa! You ARE sure Mario can never defeat us, right?"
...
Bowser: "...Psst! Kammy Koopa... Are you sure these guys can get the job done? That Goomba King was gigantic and even he couldn't beat Mario."
R Ninjakoopa: "Pshaw! Get real, King Bowser! Yeah, the Goomba King was huge, but he was a total wimpola! We're nothing like him! See, what we've got going on is the power of teamwork...Together, we can put the hurt on Mario in seconds flat!"

--Alan Redgown56 17:45, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

Um... that quote takes place after Mario beat Goomboss. It was talking about how big he was in the fight. Max2 (talk).

I'll write a letter to Nintendo of America asking if Goomboss and Goomba King are the same character!-KP Shadow

I think that if we are going to merge goomboss and the goomba king, we should merge kammy koopa and kamella-primid snake

Goomboss and Goomba King are already merged, there's no "going to" in it. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 12:10, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

What I ment was if were going to make them the same article. I thought you could infer that.-primid snake

I think that in Super Mario 64 DS his name was Goomboss first but in Paper Mario, Bowser gave him king status, but when he was defeated he lost his royalty and became Goomboss again. MarioFan9999 11:14, 27 July 2008 (EDT)

Mention that...[edit]

Shouldn't we at least meniton that it isn't %100 confirmed if Goomboss and Gommba King are the same? HyperToad

As far as I know, his name is always the same in Japanese ("Kuri King"), which implies that they are really the same. --Grandy02 15:41, 16 August 2008 (EDT)

made of Goombas[edit]

When I was playing Super Mario 64 DS, I noticed when he exploded goombas came out of him. Does that mean he is made of Goombas? Petey Piranha in Mario & Luigi: Partners in TimeGalacticPeteyPetey Piranha in Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time

That... would be weird. I think that when he's beaten, he splits into Goombas, but I don't think we should care that much about it. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Well, Boolossus is made of Boos, so maybe Goomboss is made of goombas? At any rate, he would then have some motivation to be turned into a king: The Star Rod's magic would probably make his form stable. Goombomb

It's probably just a reference to the Big Goombas, which splits into two Goombas when jumped on. --Metalex123 (talk) 23:10, 17 April 2016 (EDT)

Merge Chestnut King into this[edit]

They have the same Japanese name, and thus are highly likely to be the same character. PikaSamus (talk) 21:21, 5 May 2014 (EDT)

Nope, it may be implied, but the only evidence is the Japanese name. Mario Green.pngBazooka Mario BadaBoom! 14:17, 6 May 2014 (EDT)
It might be a reference to the character of the same name from the prequel, but Luigi embellishes his own story and the Super Luigi author further romanticizes his adventures, so it's still a separate interpretation of the character. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:20, 16 May 2014 (EDT)

Move the information about the "Chesnut King" currently on the List of implied characters to this page[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

failed to reach consensus 11-12
A while back, there was a proposal to move various article about unseen characters to the previously-mentioned page and I argued the Chestnut King (mentioned in the "Super Luigi" books in Paper Mario TTYD) page should be merged here because X, Y, and Z. The vote didn't go my way but I didn't think the opposition's arguments were very compelling, and I still think this the proper place for the information. I'll adress them all

  • It was a deliberate change by the translators: The original Japanese script and every other official translations of the game call this character "Goomba King". The English translation is alone in this. As detailled here, the English translation of TTYD mangles or remove several references made to the original Paper Mario. Occam's Razor would dictate this is yet another goof.
  • The "Chesnut King" is described differently from the Goomba King and has different motivation: That is true, but there's an in-universe justification: the gag of Super Luigi is that Luigi's account of his adventures and the in-universe book are humorously embelished, as talking to Luigi's partners will reveal how lame or embarassing the events actually were. Making the easy tutorial boss of the previous game into the main villain of the quest and giving an Hollywood ending to a calvacade of farce totally fits with the joke of Super Luigi.
  • The books never acknowledge at any point the Goomba King is a pre-existing character: While this is somewhat odd from an out-of-universe perspective, nothing in the content of the story truly necessitates bringing that up and Luigi never meets the Goomba King during the original Paper Mario.

Basically, think of it this way: If Treehouse had named the character "Goomba King" (as everyone else around the globe did) back in 2004, would we have editors today vehemently arguing the information should be split because they obviously cannot be the same character? In my mind: obviously not.

Proposer: Glowsquid (talk)
Deadline: December 28, 2018, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 4, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 11, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to January 18, 2019, 23:59 GMT

Move here (Goomboss played us like a damn fiddle!)[edit]

  1. Glowsquid (talk) GO ME
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) A gag of references to previous bosses continued with the Grodus Chronicles, I dare say. Anyways, per proposal.
  3. GrainedCargo192 (talk) Per all.
  4. Niiue (talk) Per all.
  5. bwburke94 (talk) Per all. It's likely to be a botched translation.
  6. LinkTheLefty (talk) I'll repeat myself from last time: "if the English translators had just picked up on the name back in the day like every other localization, would this even be up for debate?" I've yet to see the opposition answer such an essential question.
  7. Bazooka Mario (talk) Luigi might be full of shit, but I don't think the localizers for literally every other language are as well.
  8. Doomhiker (talk) If every other language calls the the chestnut king the Goomba King, then chances are that the english translation mistranslated the name. Per all and my comment below.
  9. Mister Wu (talk) Well, in my country I didn't have this issue to begin with thanks to localizers who did their homework, considering how even in this case the Japanese name confirms that they weren't wrong, I can only agree with them and this proposal! (By the way, the Spanish team agrees with them as well)
  10. SmokedChili (talk) Per all aside, I don't see how Goomba King and Chestnut King being different individuals is a good reason to keep them separate when there's Puzzle & Dragons SMB with its multiple King Boos and Petey Piranhas, and Goomboss from SM64DS who doesn't have Goomba King and Chestnut King's background of being transformed.
  11. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all. The Waffle Kingdom sounds very similar to the Mushroom Kingdom with it having a princess and a consoler but not a hero or else they won't need Mario's or Luigi's help. Couple by the fact that Goombas can appear anywhere in the world, it is very likely it is a Goomba King. This part is speculation (and yes I do realize that Nintendo (America) gave him his name, I am not discrediting them, I am just speculating why it could be that way from an in-game perspective), but due to Goombas looking like Chestnuts, the residents of Waffle Kingdom probably called them after Chestnuts and called their leader Chestnut King. Even if Minister Crepe was the one who transformed the prince to the Chestnut King, it is still possible that he based it off of Goombas. And based on this, I think a Goomba King is the best name to call him. Exactly the Goomba King of Paper Mario or Goomboss of Super Mario 64 DS and Mario Kart DS, unlikely (with or without that speculation of why he is called Chestnut King). But those two are unlikely to be the same too. Hence, the reason of support.

Stay on List of Implied (Chestnut King is an actual Chestnut King. He is a new one. That Treehouse invented.)[edit]

  1. Alex95 (talk) - I'll hold to my original thoughts. The only 100% connection I can find is the Japanese name, everything else is different. Sure, Luigi could be fudging some details, but from what I can remember, Luigi's partners never say anything about the Chestnut King, meaning Luigi's word and Super Luigi is all we have to go off of (perhaps someone could prove me wrong there). The creation of the Chestnut King is also noteworthy, I believe: He's Princess Eclair's lover transformed. Certainly not the story Goomboss goes through.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per Alex95 and the previous proposal.
  3. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per all. Honestly, I would have liked it better if we could do both, but I'm opposing for now until we get a proposal with such an option. Then again, both pages feature this information to some capacity, so...what even is the point of this proposal?
  4. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
  5. 7feetunder (talk) I didn't support this last time, I'm not supporting it now.
  6. Chester Alan Arthur (talk) Per all without seeing the character firsthand we have no idea what he was embellishing and what he wasn't so the argument that he was just lying about the description doesn't hold water with me. In addition while they may have the same name in Japanese that in no way proves they are the same character or that Nintendo was intending for them to be the same.
  7. Scrooge200 (talk) Per all.
  8. FanOfYoshi (talk) I think it would be speculating when saying that they are intended to be the same character. Per Chester Alan Arthur.
  9. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
  10. Bloc Partier (talk) Per all. Would be nice if the connection was mentioned in this article, though.
  11. Seandwalsh (talk) Per Alex95.
  12. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.

Comments[edit]

@Alex As addressed in the proposal, "Making the easy tutorial boss of the previous game into the main villain of the quest and giving an Hollywood ending to a calvacade[sic] of farce totally fits with the joke of Super Luigi." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:09, 13 December 2018 (EST)

And as I said, Luigi and Super Luigi is all we have to go off of. No matter how much of the information is true or false, it's the only information available. Alex95sig1.pngAlex95sig2.png 13:17, 13 December 2018 (EST)
The only information available is not the unreliable narrator and his even-less reliable book. Note that when speaking with Luigi, the tale seems more in-line with the partners' stories than the books are. The books seem hyper-embellished (ie role in play going from grass to "earth spirit"), and only in the books is the "fiancee to Eclair" thing mentioned. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:05, 13 December 2018 (EST)
Does Luigi ever contradict the Chestnut King's origins though? Yes, the books are clearly embellished, but if Luigi and his partners don't contradict certain parts, we have no evidence to say "well it's probably made up". --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 16:33, 13 December 2018 (EST)
As said in the Goomba page The original Japanese name, Kuribo, translates to "Chestnut Boy", which was due to the designs looking more like chestnuts than shiitake mushrooms. Perhaps Goomboss being changed to the Chestnut King is a reference to goomba's original Japanese name, with the gag being that Luigi confused a goomba with a chestnut, especially since goombas tend to look more like chestnuts than shiitake mushrooms. Doomhiker (talk)Artwork of a Topmini from Super Mario Galaxy 16:45, 13 December 2018 (EST)
Why wouldn't Luigi tell him that detail if he'd write about it and it actually happened? He basically said "I beat him and then there was a demon thing and I won, and that's all that happened." If he was willing to tell him about the grass, surely he'd be willing to tell him about how he was cheated out of a relationship because the dog the apparent villain was the true fiance? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:47, 17 December 2018 (EST)

@Chester It's not just Japanese. It's every language aside from English. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:49, 17 December 2018 (EST)

While we're on the topic, can we do something about Goomstar Temple on the list of implied locations instead of a redirect to Crystal Palace, or is that also a particularly contentious one? LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:40, 17 December 2018 (EST)

I'm fine with merging Goomstar Temple with Crystal Palace. At least that connection is much more straightforward than the Chestnut King/Goomba King one. Dark BonesSig.png 21:53, 20 December 2018 (EST)

@SmokedChili: They're the same Petey Piranha and King Boo, just as a rematch. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 10:43, 23 December 2018 (EST)

If there can be multiple of them, how can they be the same? SmokedChili (talk) 11:20, 23 December 2018 (EST)
I'd say Puzzle & Dragons is a strange outlier in that regard. The other games, with the exception of Mario Hoops 3-on-3 (which has two Peteys for some reason) show only one Petey and King Boo, goop clone in Sunshine aside. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 14:21, 23 December 2018 (EST)

@Yoshi the SSM: You realize your entire vote is based on speculation, right? Also, Goomba King/Goomboss are nearly identical except for Goomboss now having white eyebrows, and have the same name in Japanese. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 11:59, 26 December 2018 (EST)

It's not entirely. I said that the Waffle Kingdom has a princess and a consoler. The princess is obviously Princess Éclair. But, Minister Crepe doesn't obviously sound like a consoler at first, but if you look at his German name, he is basically the same as Toadsworth, but different. And thus, I believe he has the same role as him. As for Goombas appearing around the world, the Goombas seen in that game don't come from Bowser's army. Thus, it is indeed possible for Goombas to be in the Waffle Kingdom. As for being different Goomba Kings, this is supported by the fact that PM became that way due to the Star Rod (and was singular). SM64DS became that way due to lots of Goombas coming together. But, other than that, we have no evidence that says that they are different, nor any evidence (besides the Japenese name) that they are the same. Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 10:16, 27 December 2018 (EST)
Yes, it is entirely. None of what you're saying in your vote has any relevance whatsoever, it's just baseless speculation that does absolutely nothing to justify a merge. Your points about the differences between the PM and SM64DS incarnations of Goomba King/Goomboss are also irrelevant, as continuity between completely different series of games is not a thing. TTYD is a direct sequel to the first Paper Mario, so differences in characterization are much more relevant here. Furthermore, you keep mentioning that there's no evidence they are the same; that's a reason not to merge them. Motion to have your vote removed; we do not merge articles based on fan theories. Dark BonesSig.png 22:22, 27 December 2018 (EST)
There is evidence, namely that English is the only language to foul up the translation, which it did many other times. Saying they're different is far more speculation-based than saying they're the same, and once again, there has not seemed to be an answer to the "would we be having this discussion if the English translation called him Goomba King?" question. Please answer it. I motion to have answering that be a requirement to voting "keep split," as without it, the arguments against look like a "one true canon" sort of speculative deal. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:26, 27 December 2018 (EST)
There is something else I see. The issue of TTYD being a direct sequel to the first PM being the reason why characterization is more relevant. And I don't think this is a just cause. This is because it takes place in an implied kingdom. So, I looked at things implied and for implied characters. During that search I found the German name of Minister Crepe being similar to Toadsworth. And thus I believe they share the same role. But, it is nothing more than implied they share the same role, not proved. Plus, I don't have the game, so this site is what I have to go on. Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 09:37, 28 December 2018 (EST)
What does Minister Crepe having a similar government role to Toadsworth have to do with Goomboss and Chestnut King though? All I see is you talking about similarities between the Mushroom Kingdom and Waffle Kingdom, then somehow coming to the conclusion that Goomboss and the Chestnut King are separate characters but arguing to merge them anyway because you perceive Goomba King and Goomboss to be separate characters. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:17, 28 December 2018 (EST)
Yeah, that does sound like I am reading into the lines too much. However, my vote is my take on my view of the situation. As for TTYD, PM, and SM64DS versions being different idea, I thought because of their Japanese names that they should be grouped together. Yes, it appears TTYD has a loser connection to PM than SM64DS, but both have one thing in common: their English names are different from PM, but their Japanese names are the same. The only difference may be that chestnut is not associated with Goombas in English (while boss is similar to king). But, chestnut is in Japanese. Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 14:08, 28 December 2018 (EST)
@Yoshi the SSM: What are you even trying to say? All I'm getting from your comment is "the Japanese names are the same, so they should be merged." No. If that were true, we would've merged Toadette and Vanna T. a long time ago.
@Doc: The Big Boo from Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon shares Boolossus' name in Japanese. In English it doesn't, and we instead list its information on the Big Boo article. But if the English translators had called him Boolossus instead, LMDM Big Boo's info would probably be on the Boolossus' article right now. I'm not necessarily saying LMDM Big Boo's info shouldn't be on the Boolossus article; there are obvious similarities between the two that support a merge. The point is that the "what if" scenario is not nearly as important as you think it is. Like that Chancellor/Toad Minister proposal that's going on right now. If the English names were the same it would probably have more support than it does now, and there's also a possibility the articles wouldn't have been separate to begin with. I'm neutral on that issue, but I'd vote to support that long before this, because again, similarities beyond just the names. The Chestnut King gives me nothing to go on. He's an unseen character in an unseen kingdom consisting entirely of new characters with no obvious connection to the Goomba King other than the name. Dark BonesSig.png 00:21, 29 December 2018 (EST)

@Toadette's edit to his vote: That's very unlikely to get any traction due to it could be violating the Once and only once policy. Plus, it is mentioned in the trivia on this page right now. Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 10:16, 27 December 2018 (EST)

How exactly would it violate the policy? Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 12:19, 27 December 2018 (EST)

Is it just me, or none of the opposition votes addressed the "That Treehouse invented" part of the vote? I'm not even sure if what the Japanese script says about this character is known. Considering how the discovery of the Japanese script describing the same character as the English script bar the mistranslated name would invalidate the concept of Treehouse having invented the character, should we consider rewriting the opposing vote so that it matches the consensus among the people who oppose better?--Mister Wu (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2018 (EST)

I think it was more of a jab at the opposition than anything. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:38, 28 December 2018 (EST)

Here's what it comes down to for me. Yes, Goomboss and the Chestnut King share the same name in several languages, but the Chestnut King's backstory is very different to that of Goomboss. That name is the only evidence in support of this merge, and the supporters are handwaving the Chestnut King's backstory as "probably made up". However, all the information we have about the Chestnut King comes from two unreliable narrators; Luigi, and the author of the Super Luigi books. While both authors indisputably fudged a lot of the details, who are we to say which details are made up just because we want to merge an article? I'd argue that doing so would be nothing but pure speculation. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 21:24, 2 January 2019 (EST)

Yeah, but it is actually called Goomba King in three languages (French, German, and Italian), not just one like Toadette in PMTTYD (which is just German that calls her Vanna T.). Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 23:15, 4 January 2019 (EST)
The Toadette error was caused because Vanna T. and Toadette have the same Japanese name. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:42, 5 January 2019 (EST)
Yeah, I am just showing you that Goomba King isn't just a mistake by the developers of those languages, as there are three languages that actually has Goomba King. Red Yoshi in a construction hat walking Yoshi the SSM (talk) 14:24, 5 January 2019 (EST)

This just came to my mind: How and why would Goomba King's background contradict with Chestnut King's? SmokedChili (talk) 02:37, 5 January 2019 (EST)

Goomboss is a giant Goomba and a loyal follower of Bowser who was turned into a king with the Star Rod (contrary to the article, I don't believe any dialogue in the game mentions Bowser increasing Goomboss' size or the pact between the two, as seen up here). According to the Super Luigi books, the Chestnut King was Princess Eclair's lover who was transformed into a monster by Minister Crepe. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 13:42, 5 January 2019 (EST)
Still don't see the contradiction. Besides, how would these be mutually exclusive from each other? SmokedChili (talk) 14:19, 5 January 2019 (EST)
And in SM64DS, defeating him reveals him to be a combined form of several normal Goombas, a la Megasparkle Goomba. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2019 (EST)
Keep in mind that Big Goombas later adopted this trait in the New Super Mario Bros. games. Regardless, Goomba King and Goomboss have many similarities that would indicate they are the same, being loyal followers of Bowser with nearly the exact same appearance, while the only evidence pointing to the Chestnut King being Goomboss is their shared name in some languages. We never get to see the actual Chestnut King, so we don't truly know how similar they actually are. --Waluigi's head icon in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 15:05, 6 January 2019 (EST)
Conversely, we don't get to see how different they are, and the vague descriptions we get are from a guy and a book lying out their respective arses. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2019 (EST)

Have the Chesnut King on the List of implied characters redirect to this page[edit]

Settledproposal.svg This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

merge Chestnut King to Goomboss 23-2
Three years ago there was a proposal by Glowsquid to move this — here is the main compelling argument: The Chestnut King is identical to the Goomba King’s name in Paper Mario in every version of the game except English: The original Japanese script and every other official translations of the game call this character "Goomba King". The English localization is alone in this. In fact the English localization of TTYD mangles or remove several references made to the original Paper Mario. This is another mistake by the English localization team. As a wiki we strive for a relatively neutral point of view, and allowing the mistake of one language to override the intent of the game in all other languages is frankly unbecoming of the Super Mario Wiki. The Chestnut King should redirect to this page and all the content should get its own game section. It’s a really cool bit of trivia that I just learned, and would’ve learned long before if this article was handled properly. It’s clear that the original intent was a joke about how the Paper Mario Prologue Boss is Luigi’s final boss in the Waffle Kingdom. There is no contradiction in canon since Luigi never met the Goomba King in Paper Mario. --Tadaa!2.gifPlumberTadaaa!.gif 16:26, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Proposer: Plumber (talk)
Deadline: May 12, 2022 23:59 UTC/GMT

Move here (English localization pls!)[edit]

  1. Plumber (talk) This is a Super Mario Wiki that happens to be in English but we should acknowledge occasional localization shortcomings.
  2. Glowsquid (talk) - What I said last time but less hammy. The English translation of TTYD flubs many references to the original Paper Mario and has oddities and omisions that don't exist in other translations of the game (TCRF has a more diggestible and comprehensive list, including a few I wasn't aware of when making that twitter thread). The framing of Super Luigi makes it obvious the whole joke is Luigi going on an epic quest to defeat the easy tutorial boss of the previous game, etc. It makes no sense to cling to this mistake and pretend the English translations had unique insight over the original writers and everyone else who translated it.
  3. Somethingone (talk) Wait, this wasn't the case already? That's just silly. We know TTYD's localization to English was nutty (Dark Lakitu's Pipe, Goomstar Temple, Secret RDM Email, Pale Piranha, Everything Glowsquid said, etc), and it just seems silly to say this specific reference wasn't a reference when the others were. Goomboss isn't a prince transformed into a monster? Of course he isn't, that was just the story exaggerating things like it did in every other Luigi book.
  4. Scrooge200 (talk) See this section on my sandbox. English TTYD is a terrible translation, and I've been against treating this separately for a while.
  5. LinkTheLefty (talk) This one again? Per everything before.
  6. Swallow (talk) I wouldn't mind covering this here, however I think it should be written along the lines of "Although the Goomba King does not appear in Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door, a character known as the Chestnut King is mentioned as the main antagonist of Luigi's tale. In the Japanese version along with other translations, the Chestnut King shares the same name as the Goomba King." To me, this is still perfectly acknowledging the shared Japanese name, but does not assume that they are meant to be the same individual which is what I still really don't want.
  7. Archivist Toadette (talk) Changing vote, only per Swallow's suggestion. I still vehemently oppose the original reasoning behind this proposal, but I think it's fine to support proposals for entirely different reasons.
  8. WildWario (talk) Per all.
  9. Power Flotzo (talk) The name is highly likely to be lost in translation, like several others in TTYD. Per all.
  10. Beanbean (talk) I’ve worked on/with localization teams for multiple games (The Last of Us Part II and Kingdom Hearts III in particular), and can easily understand how this became mistranslated. The limited context, changes in staff, and time constraints that localization teams often have—NOA’s in particular between the first and second Paper Mario—mean legacy text and nomenclature can get inconsistent translations between games. See comment section for more details.
  11. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Since I'm playing through the game again right now, I was planning to propose this myself. I've been reading it aloud as "Goomba King" and let me tell you, it changes nothing. It's obvious that most of what comes out of Luigi's mouth about his adventure is pure BS, and the heavily edited book accounts are nearly unrecognizable from the "truth." Furthermore, the obvious joke here is Loog is having a huge epic preparation for and battle with the predecessor game's tutorial boss. TTYD's localization was a mess, and we've otherwise chose to note the blunders instead of taking them at face-value. We're not putting "Bubu" as an implied character, after all. I leave with one final question: if the localizers had picked up on the reference, would we have ever split them?
  12. TheFlameChomp (talk) I opposed this the last two times it came up, but I do see evidence that this is a case of something being lost in translation, as the other languages are fairly consistent in using Goomba King's name and the English localization of the game does appear to have numerous issues. However, I do not think we have enough evidence to say that they are definitively the same character and do prefer Swallow's suggestion.
  13. Wikiboy10 (talk) Per Swallow on this.
  14. Tails777 (talk) Per Swallow.
  15. Hewer (talk) I was on the fence about this at first, but now I'm convinced that this is more inference than it is speculation. Per all.
  16. ShootingStar7X (talk) Per all.
  17. Arend (talk) Per all.
  18. Bazooka Mario (talk) Luigi might be full of Goomba dung, but not the localizers for literally every other language.
  19. Yoshi the SSM (talk) Per all.
  20. Ray Trace (talk) Per Bean.
  21. Niiue (talk) Per all. I've wanted to see this happen for quite some time now.
  22. SmokedChili (talk) Per all. It's not like no one could ever mention for example Link while referring to both one of his incarnations and all of them at the same time.
  23. Mister Wu (talk) Thinking about it, it made a lot of sense to mention the Goomba King both as a joke final boss - that the player of the first game would immediately recognize as such - and as a food reference. I already agreed because of the Japanese name and the other localizations, now I agree even more, though we can use the wording of Swallow to err in the side of caution.

Keep status quo[edit]

  1. 7feetunder (talk) Per everything I've said about this before. The shared name is certainly intentional, but that doesn't mean they're the same character entirely because of that (e.g. This Princess is a clear reference to this Princess, but they're not the same and we don't merge them). The "Luigi going on an epic quest to defeat the easy tutorial boss of the previous game" theory is just that - a theory, one that nobody has a shred of evidence to confirm. I could just as easily say that the "joke" is that the name is the same, not that they're the same character. The name was clearly chosen not just to match Goomba King, but to tie in with the food theme of the Waffle Kingdom. I also feel like supporters are focusing too much on the shakiness of TTYD's English translation and how it "mangled the reference" when, as previously stated, it being a reference does not automatically mean these two completely dissimilar characters are one and the same.
  2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per the many prior discussions about this.

Comments[edit]

This is a Mario Wiki written in English, not a wiki about Mario in English. Tadaa!2.gifPlumberTadaaa!.gif 16:39, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

I would quite like to hear the context of how Luigi's story is written in the Japanese version (or most other versions) when referring to this before I decide. Swallow's profile picture shown in NEO: The World Ends With You Swallow Rindo Kanade 16:46, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

@7feetunder To be fair, how do we know that princess in TOK is not based on princess in CS? They're both small female chain chomps with similar/identical names in all localizations, both taken care of by yellow toads, both require a bone to progress the story, etc. I'd say that the princess in TOK was at least a callback to the princess in CS. Somethingone (talk) 17:01, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

That was entirely my point. One is a clear reference to the other, but they're not the same character and we don't merge them. Dark BonesSig.png 17:04, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

"The "Luigi going on an epic quest to defeat the easy tutorial boss of the previous game" theory is just that - a theory, one that nobody has a shred of evidence to confirm."

There's a very obvious recurring joke to the Super Luigi subplot: the book describes the events as this epic fantasy quest mirroring Mario's own during the events TTYD, while Luigi's partner, when you talk to them, describes the real thing or Luigi's part in them as goofy and underwhelming. The book says Luigi stunned his mechanic at the race with his "revolutionary racing style"; the mechanic in question says Luigi fucked up and cause a pile up at the start of the race. The book says "Luigi's natural acting talents" stunned the flower guy; said guy, meanwhile describes Luigi as playing an inanimate patch of grass.

The Goomba King is a final punchline: instead of fighting the supernatural evil that's been hyped up to him, Luigi struggles to battle the "So easy you can't lose" tutorial boss of the previous installment (and yes, that this is one of many instances of TTYD's English translation failing to pick up on a reference to the previous game is very relevant). It's only a "theory without any shred of evidence" if one adamantly refuses to recognize subtext.

"it being a reference does not automatically mean these two completely dissimilar characters are one and the same."

Let's flip that on its head: if the the English TTYD correctly translated the character's name and the page reflected that, would you be here arguing that they must be split because they clearly, obviously, absolutely cannot be the same character (who I shall point, is only ever described through a cartoonishly-biased 2nd-hand account)? --Glowsquid (talk) 17:11, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

I don't recall "clearly, obviously, absolutely cannot be" ever being a part of my arguments. My argument has always been that, given the facts, we can't prove that they're the same and therefore shouldn't act like we know for sure that they are. As indicated by the two Princesses (which no English localization mangled at all), obviously intentional shared name ≠ same character (and we know what those two have in common). Innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around. You've also failed to explain why your version of the "joke" is more fact than mine. Even if we do merge, we should still at least acknowledge the possibility that they aren't actually the same being. Dark BonesSig.png 17:22, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
The whole joke (what scare quotes lol) hinges on the character being recognizable as a previous entity.

Super Luigi establish a clear pattern: Luigi introduce himself as going on an epic adventure just like his big bro, his partners describe Luigi as being a bumbling fuck-up and then you get the book's version of the events which have a vested bias in making Luigi look more competent and his adventures more epic than they actually are: when the final chapter describes Lugi as fighting an epic battle against a glorious foe, but the name of said foe is conspicuously the same as the tutorial boss of the previous game, you're meant to laugh and recognize Luigi is fibbing again.

The argument that the Goomba Kings can't be the same because of how the books describes him takes for granted the idea the in-universe Super Luigi books are a 100% objective and reliable account of the events. They're not - that's the whole point. Nevermind how the books account is always conspicuously more flaterring than the reality, the joke is given away in the very first one: when it says "Knowing that his older, though less talented, brother was out on a no-doubt inconsequential errand," the reader is meant to recognize Mario actually is going on an epic world-saving adventure while Luigi is bumbling through an inconsequential errand. --Glowsquid (talk) 18:58, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Keep in mind that I'm only supporting right now because of the interpretation that Swallow has suggested. And keep in mind that the "Chestnut King" name is used both within and beyond the scope of the game's Super Luigi series. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 19:05, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
One other factor we should take into account is the fact we never see what the Chestnut King looks like, not even an illustration. Swallow's profile picture shown in NEO: The World Ends With You Swallow Rindo Kanade 19:21, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
Super Luigi's heavily biased account of Luigi's adventure is not lost on me. You don't have to explain to me over and over that its baloney. That still doesn't change the fact that Luigi's tales are our only source of info on the Chestnut King, even if their account of events is suspect. A lot of the time Luigi's partners are there to tell what really happened, but when Luigi tells the tale of the final battle, he's alone, so there's no "actual version of events" to contrast it to. The way Luigi talks about the end of his adventure makes it sound like he's hiding something from Mario - namely, that he didn't get the girl - which is why I never thought to distrust the book's portrayal of the Chestnut King. Even if it isn't true, there's still nothing in any version of the story tying the Chestnut King to the Goomba King outside of the name. I've already acknowledged that the shared name is not a coincidence, but I've also already explained why that doesn't confirm they're the same character. I won't mind a merge as much if we stick with Swallow's idea, though. I'd prefer it to stay split, but I mainly don't want us definitively saying they're the same character. Dark BonesSig.png 19:46, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
I completely agree with you that the English name was done to better tie in the food theme with the Waffle Kingdom. But the localizers missed the forest for the trees. --Tadaa!2.gifPlumberTadaaa!.gif 22:07, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

For what it's worth, here's how Luigi describes the Chestnut King when speaking to him directly: "As I strained my eyes in the darkness, I saw the most terrifying beast of all! [...] He was monstrous and drooling! Puddles of toxic goo dropped from his mouth, melting the very ground at our feet! [...] I dodged the king's fangs, jumped onto his chest, and gave him a hammer-whack! My swing split the air and crashed dead-center onto the Chestnut King's skull!" Blooey, who accompanies Luigi when this part of the story is first unlocked, doesn't seem to indicate that Luigi is lying about the details the battle. Blooey also seems to have been burnt during the battle. - RHG1951 (talk) 20:46, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Yep. That account completely matches the account of the Goomba King in Paper Mario.
But I don’t think Blooey is relevant. I always assumed Blooey was burnt by the true evil in the Waffle Kingdom, Minister Crepe — his name implies he cooked Blooey in some way. He implied the final boss was a “hairy” battle, so I assume Crepe was actually formidable.
It’s somewhat noteworthy that in all variations of the first two Paper Mario games (except in one language), there is a character called the Goomba King who was said to be transformed in both games. It’s not really relevant if the Goomba King is really Princess Eclair’s lover transformed. Whether or not that is true or one of the many exaggerations and lies of the Super Luigi books, it does not contradict the Goomba King canon at all. In fact it only reinforces it given how the Goomba King was transformed in Paper Mario. Bowser used the Star Rod to turn him from an ordinary Goomba into a bigger one. So that’s another point of continuity. --Tadaa!2.gifPlumberTadaaa!.gif 21:48, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
Your attempt to connect the Goomba King and Chestnut King makes no sense. They're both transformed? That's a flimsy connection. Bowser used the Star Rod to grant the Goomba King royalty (notably, I don't think Bowser ever actually mentions transforming him, just that he made him a king, the "was originally an ordinary Goomba" part is merely implied). The Chestnut King was unwillingly transformed by Minister Crepe, and he's the lover of the princess of some random far-off kingdom the Goomba King has no reason to be involved with. Why would he beg Bowser for royalty if he were a princess's consort anyway? It does contradict the Goomba King canon, and very badly at that. As least the "Super Luigi is lying" argument is believable. Dark BonesSig.png 22:14, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
I mean it’s not particularly relevant either way. But I do think it’s an interesting connection! I can totally believe that after being defeated by Mario, the Goomba King went away to the Waffle Kingdom and fell in love. --Tadaa!2.gifPlumberTadaaa!.gif 22:16, April 28, 2022 (EDT)
So it's possible. I still don't think we should definitively say they are the same character, even if we do merge, as Swallow said. Dark BonesSig.png 22:24, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Based on my experience as a game dev who’s worked in localization (namely The Last of Us Part II and on Kingdom Hearts III), it’s extremely likely that this got mistranslated for three reasons: 1. Limited context/access 2. Staff changes 3. Time.

1. When a localization team reviews translations to approve them, we typically view the translations themselves within some kind of database/sheet to do so, rather than hunting down each piece of text to look at them in-game (that comes later and usually gets done by localization testers rather than the person who approved the original translations themselves).

The fact that Luigi’s adventures appear exclusively in text form means that even when checking the strings (the text) in-game to confirm that it fits within the scroll box UI, a localization tester would still have no visual reference for the ”Chestnut King,” making it much harder for someone to draw a connection to the character from the first game.

Additionally, since the NOA loc team had more people on the English localization staff for TTYD than the first Paper Mario, there’s a chance that a different person approved the string than the one who approved the string for the Goomba King’s name in the first game, and that person would have even less context if they hadn’t worked on the first game.

Third, even if folks on the NOA staff compared how other languages aside from English translated the name from Japanese, they still might not have realized the connection given my previous points. Due to the intense cycle of crunch that many games famously, and unfortunately go through, especially at Nintendo, it’d be inefficient for the team for one language i.e. English to check every string against all other translations of that same string, let alone getting context for those translations if they’re not a native speaker of the other non-JP languages. Both time constraints as well as the fact that localization tends to happen near the very end of a project means inconsistent translations like this can easily slip through.

As an example, nomenclature (in particular, character/creature names or lore-specific terms) can erroneously get more than one translation applied to them. While working on TLOU2, we had a localization bug where the infected known as Shamblers had two different translations in Latin American Spanish, Tambaleantes (tumblers), and Monstruos (monsters) that got used in different lines for Ellie. I pitched that we stick with Tambaleantes for all lines that refer to the Shambler, as it’s a much more unique name than “Monstruo” and it’s consistent with a supermajority of the other strings with the infected’s name. The loc team in Europe agreed, and we ended up fixing that translation. But the main reason I caught this bug was because I had been testing that same level for several months in preparation for a press demo. Like I said, time and context make a huge difference. f_wikiimagem_a663437.pngBean 23:12, April 28, 2022 (EDT)

Mario's mugshot from Excitebike: Bun Bun Mario Battle. Good post! Well who knew that working with mushroom monsters would help us sort through THIS mushroom monster? Mario Green.pngBazooka Mario BadaBoom! 23:32, April 28, 2022 (EDT)