MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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(→‎Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts: Actually, now that Doc's voted, I like to restore my initial vote with additional reasoning, and withdraw my second.)
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==New features==
==New features==
''None at the moment.''
===Expand ''Rhythm Heaven'' series coverage===
The [[WarioWare (series)|''WarioWare'']] and [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven (series)|''Rhythm Heaven'']] series cross over with each other very frequently for various reasons. As such, this wiki currently has some [[:Category:Rhythm Heaven series|limited coverage of ''Rhythm Heaven'' games]]. I believe that this coverage should be slightly expanded. While our fellow NIWA member Rhythm Heaven Wiki is doing a great job documenting these things and linking to it when relevant works, it would still be nice for the Super Mario Wiki to have ''all'' the ''WarioWare''-related ''Rhythm Heaven'' content covered within its scope.


==Removals==
The new articles I suggest should be created are:
''None at the moment.''
* [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven Fever|''Rhythm Heaven Fever'']] (contains the game [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]], which features [[Young Cricket]] and was the first appearance of [[Cicada]], who has since appeared in more ''WarioWare'' games than ''Rhythm Heaven'' games)
* [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]] (stars [[Young Cricket]] and [[Cicada]])
* [[rhythmheaven:Tap Trial|Tap Trial]] (a version starring [[Ashley]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Munchy Monk|Munchy Monk]] (a version starring [[Master Mantis]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Fillbots 2|Fillbots 2]] (a version starring [[Mike]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Super Samurai Slice|Super Samurai Slice]] (a version starring [[18-Volt]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:The Clappy Trio 2|The Clappy Trio 2]] (a version starring [[Jimmy T]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Freeze Frame|Freeze Frame (Rhythm Game)]] (a version starring [[Dr. Crygor]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Catchy Tune 2|Catchy Tune 2]] (a version starring [[Kat & Ana]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
* [[rhythmheaven:Ringside|Ringside]] (a version starring [[Wario-Man]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')


==Changes==
To be clear, these articles would ''only'' cover these subjects to the extent that they are relevant to the ''WarioWare'' series, much like how the ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'' article is written. This is ''not'' a proposal to annex the Rhythm Heaven Wiki's coverage into our own.
===Merge ''Super Mario Bros.'' (film) subjects with their game counterparts===
Currently, several articles exist for characters from ''[[Super Mario Bros. (film)|Super Mario Bros.]]'' (1993) that share names with and are to some extent based on corresponding characters from the source material. While from a certain perspective this makes sense (these characters ''are'' substantially different from the characters they're based on), '''no other non-game-compliant ''Mario'' adaptation is given this treatment'''. [[SMW:CANON]] suggests that all official sources should be treated equally, including in cases when these sources contradict each other. I believe that the 1993 film is a very clear case when this applies, and I propose that some if not all of these articles should be merged with their corresponding game characters.


Now, to this one might suggest: "But the characters from the 1993 film really ''are'' canonically not the same in-universe people as their game counterparts! Doesn't that mean they should be covered separately?" The thing is, that's not how this wiki treats different versions of the same character in any other instance. The article [[Donkey Kong]] covers the ''character'' Donkey Kong, including in games where that character is "canonically" [[Cranky Kong]]. [[Paper Mario (character)]] is only considered a separate character from Mario in the very specific case where the two characters coexist alongside each other. Two works of media portraying different iterations of the same character is seemingly always treated as being ''the'' same character, and the coverage of ''Super Mario Bros.'' (1993) is a strange exception to this.
'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
====Create articles for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' and all Rhythm Games that feature playable ''WarioWare'' characters====
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per my proposal.
====Only create an article for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever''====
#{{User|Hewer}} While we do have articles for the Mario minigames in [[Nintendo Land]], these ones are, from what I can tell, less substantial and reskins of un-Mario-related minigames, so I feel like giving articles to every one is a bit overkill and covering them like we currently do on the [[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]] page is neater and gives more purpose to those pages. Having a Rhythm Heaven Fever article but covering the main thing connecting it to Mario on a separate page would be like if we split the Super Mario Mash-up from the [[Minecraft]] page. That said, giving Rhythm Heaven Fever guest appearance status seems reasonable.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes the most sense to us. While the Rhythm Game articles are a tad overkill (it'd be like making a <s>Spleef</s> "Tumble" article because of Minecraft's coverage on the wiki), given ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' is retroactively the debut of [[Cicada]], it seems only fair to at least give that game an article as a guest appearance. After all, if ''[[Art Style: PiCTOBiTS]]'' <small>(our beloved)</small> can have an article as a token guest appearance because you can use Mario items, why can't Rhythm Heaven Fever when it has the debut of a ''WarioWare'' character?
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi.
#{{User|BMfan08}} Hesitant as I was at first, I think this option is fair enough. Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} After thinking about it, Cicada's debut in Fever COULD be likened to the whole ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' thing... somewhat, at least.


The relevant articles are:
====Only create articles for the eight Rhythm Games in ''Megamix'' that have ''WarioWare'' versions====
* Film characters very directly based on specific characters from the source material:
====Do nothing====
** [[Mario (film character)]]
#{{user|Super Mario RPG}} First of all, we have Rhythm Heaven Wiki, which you even mentioned in your proposal. We can still practically find ways to cover all of the ''Super Mario'' content in ''Rhythm Heaven'' without going overboard, otherwise we may find ourselves with a successor to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' coverage issue. Also, when you said in your proposal that you thought it would be "nice," that's vague and based on personal opinion, since one could swap out ''Rhythm Heaven'' for anything (''Bayonetta'', ''Shin Megami Tensei'', ''Terraria'', etc.) Wiki scope should be about practicality, not whether someone thinks something is "nice."
** [[Luigi (film character)]]
** [[Yoshi (film character)]]
** [[President Koopa]] (to be potentially merged with [[Bowser]])
** [[King (film character)]] (to be potentially merged with [[Mushroom King]])
* Film characters based more loosely on specific characters from the source material:
** [[Toad (film character)]]
** [[Princess Daisy (film character)]]
** [[Iggy (film character)]] (to be potentially merged with [[Iggy Koopa]])
* Film characters based on enemies from the source material:
** [[Spike (film character)]]
** [[Big Bertha (film character)]]
* Film species based on enemies from the source material:
** [[Goomba (film species)]]
** [[Snifit (film species)]]


'''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
====Comments====
'''Deadline''': April 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT
@Super Mario RPG: Obviously "nice" was being used to mean "preferable given the described circumstances", not sure what gave you an impression otherwise. One could not swap out Rhythm Heaven for any other franchise as Bayonetta, Shin Megami Tensei, and Terraria have not had frequent crossovers with the WarioWare series. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)


====Merge all ''Super Mario Bros.'' (film) subjects with their game counterparts====
@Hewer, To be fair, there ''is'' precedent for giving ''Mario'' reskins of otherwise unrelated minigames dedicated articles, namely the [[Game & Watch Gallery (series)|''Game & Watch Gallery'' series]]. I understand your point though, it might be overkill to have full coverage of all these minigames when they're already handled on the Rhythm Heaven Wiki. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 17:00, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|JanMisali}} First choice, per proposal.
#{{User|Mario}} Echoing my sentiments in my 2016 proposal[https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Remerge_most_Super_Mario_Bros._film_information] a bit (tho I promise to be less grouchy :O}D). Even with the filmmmaker's contrived notion that live action movie Mario is supposed to be a separate entity from Mario from the Mario Kart series, if you work with that logic backward, they're still variants of each other, basically two different takes of the Mario the Super Brother. This can extend for the other characters. That being said, some of the target pages articles are big enough as they are already but I s'pose that's a different problem irrelevant to the logic of these pages.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Keeping the coverage on the same article reflects how they're the same thing. Different entity doesn't necessarily mean different subject. If anything, separate articles on the film characters would set an unwelcome precedent for scattering information of like, let's say, ''Super Mario-kun'' or ''Super Mario Bros. Movie'' counterparts of Mario into separate articles, which we'd want to avoid.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} I think it's best to not be arbitrary with who gets merged or not based on how different they are from their "main" counterpart. Per all.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Maybe I could work with this kind of continuity-based differentiation in a series with, like, ''any'' sense of continuity, but I don't really think the Mario series has that.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} We think this makes the most sense, and in the name of consistency, what we do to one, we should probably do to all. Besides, it's not like the 1993 movie is even the first time that a different entity has used the name of a pre-existing entity--though unlike things like [[Galoomba|G(al)oombas]], the 1993 movie incarnations stand alone, with only things like gags in mangas deciding that the movie incarnations are different from the original characters (such as what happened to [[Yoshi (film character)|Yoshi]])--and even in those cases, it's pretty clearly not part of some deep lore for the film itself. <small>We hope this rationale makes sense, anyways? As we write this we're a tad tired, so if you need clarification, just ask politely.</small>
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - I forgot I hadn't voted. I prefer this option. I'd be fine with the other popular option (for now), aside from questioning why Toad is part of the exclusions.


====Merge most of these, but keep Spike and Big Bertha separate from the enemies they're based on====
==Removals==
===Remove profiles and certain other content related to the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' from the wiki===
The wiki currently houses a sizeable number of transcriptions of information from the 2015 ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'', mainly the Japanese edition, in the form of character and enemy profiles. I stated my concern [[Talk:Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#Copyright infringement|here]] that this practice may infringe Dark Horse/Nintendo's copyright over the product, since, to my knowledge, the book's entire selling point is to inform you on the stuff you find in Mario games through bitesized blurbs. In incorporating these blurbs within its knowledge base, the Mario Wiki, a free resource, is not just impairing the very purpose of the book, but, given that it's still in print, may negatively impact its sales. In fact, that second point is the reason this proposal concerns this book only and not similar publications like ''[[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]]'', which has long been out of print and has been superseded by the SMB Encyclopedia, making it highly unlikely that some big wig will send Porple a DMCA strike over something like [[Fire (100m)#Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten|Fire (100m)'s profile]]. When it comes to the 2015 Encyclopedia, though, that has a reasonable likelihood of happening and it's best the wiki enforces good faith.


====Merge most of these, but keep Goomba and Snifit separate from the enemies they're based on====
On a similar basis, one user who engaged with the topic in the above talk page has also questioned the wiki's need to feature scans of the book's mistakes in its very article. Given the small size of each blurb, the scans are essentially taking away substantial chunks of information in a way that cannot be conceived as demonstrative or transformative under US Fair Use law.


====Merge most of these, but keep Spike, Big Bertha, Goomba, and Snifit separate from the enemies they're based on====
What this proposal aims to do is the following:
#{{User|JanMisali}} Third choice, per proposal.
*remove encyclopedia bios listed on various articles, regardless of their source's language. [[Tryclyde#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. bio|Here's an example]]. [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.|Here's another]].
*delete the scans in the "List of English translation errors and typos not from the Super Mario Wiki" section of the encyclopedia's article, as well as any other scans of the book's contents, '''unless''' said content has been displayed by Nintendo or one of their official distributors for the purpose of promoting the book. To exemplify: [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 20.png|This]], [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 6.png|this]], and [[:File:ESMB page 27.png|this]] image should be deleted if the proposal passes. [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|This]] and [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|this]] one should also be deleted, since the content depicted in these images hasn't been used by Shogakukan, Amazon, or some other official distributor to portray the Japanese edition on their online storefronts. On the other hand, the artwork shown in the article's gallery, such as [[:File:Bowser Jr Coloring Book.png|this one]], '''shouldn't''' be removed unless they depict textual information that infringes copyright.


====Merge most of these, but keep Toad, Princess Daisy, Iggy, Spike, and Big Bertha separate====
A few notes:
#{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per proposal.
*Paraphrases of the encyclopedia's information will be allowed under the proposal, so the book's article may continue to describe its mistakes until further notice.
#{{User|Hewer}} I agree with merging the more obviously game-inspired characters like Mario and Luigi where the split feels more like a vestige of the wiki's former obsession with its made-up idea of canon, but merging characters like Iggy and Spike where pretty much the only thing in common is the name with (to my knowledge) little indication they're even based on the game characters doesn't feel right. EDIT: I agree with DrippingYellow's comment about how the King and Mushroom King shouldn't be merged though, since their only similarity is that they're both kings, but that can be dealt with in another proposal.
*Small quotes of the book will also be permitted (e.g.: "This text is translated from the Japanese instruction booklet.") if they do not violate this proposal's requirements, albeit it's entirely up to editors to decide how small a quote should be and whether it fits US Fair Use.
#{{User|Arend}} I'm most hesitant about merging Daisy. As you know, Daisy is pretty much the movie's equivalent of Princess Toadstool, and in a previous concept, was even named Hildy/Heidi/whichever of the two it was. Had that name not been changed to Daisy, many would obviously argue to merge it with [[Princess Peach]] instead. I would also say that it's pretty bizarre to have one of the two bumbling henchmen be based on a Koopaling while the other is based on a random enemy, instead of ''both'' being based on a Koopaling (we got ''seven'' of those guys; they couldn't have called the other henchman "Larry"?); not to mention that this version of Toad was once called Lemmy (''another'' Koopaling).
*Subject names unique to the encyclopedia are not concerned by this proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Leaning more on this idea. There are the obvious ones, but I think the ones holding me back from an all out merge are Spike and Big Bertha, as they seem way different compared to what they are supposedly based off of (also the Iggy one feels a bit off to merge with the Koopaling).
#{{User|Nightwicked Bowser}} Per all
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} I think I'd rather go with this option, since those particular subjects have too little overlap with their game "counterparts". Besides, how would a carnivorous freshwater fish share clear commonality with an...uncomfortably attractive humanoid being?
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} Per all, Archivist Toadette especially.
<s>#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Secondary choice; per proposal.</s>


====Only merge Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, President Koopa/Bowser, and King; keep the rest separate====
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Merge Goomba and Snifit, but keep the characters separate====
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Book's only 9 years old, this is worrisome.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. Having scans as "proof" of mistakes is especially odd, just use the book and page number as a source.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Well, we don't want to get sued for 34 thousand dollars in the Federal Court of Malaysia now, do we? And we probably don't want a DMCA from Dark Horse/Nintendo either. Per all of yall (collectively)
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. Good move, Koopa con Carne.


====Other====
====Oppose====
#{{User|Axis}} I genuinely don't see how use of limited material from the book on pages relevant to the subject in question is by any means problematic.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Axis.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Until we know what the book itself says, I'm opposing. We can't just go, "Oh, here's this thing from 9 years ago, we can't use images of it because copyright blah blah blah." That would set a precedent that should not get set. Super Mario Pia was brought up in this proposal, as was The Art of Super Mario Odyssey in the linked talkpage, but what about others? I don't want any bad precedents being set.
<strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Axis.</strike> On second thought, choosing to abstain, at least for the time being.


====Do nothing====
====Comments====
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} While I completely understand and agree with [[MarioWiki:Canonicity]] and the points stated above, I just don't want these to be merged at all. All of the characters mentioned are very different from their game counterparts, and many characters that are non-human in the video games are at least partially human in the movie (like Bowser (video game character) and King Koopa (movie "counterpart"). This is enough for me to not want to merge any of the pages.
@Axis Put it another way: how legal would it be if you cut down a copyrighted movie in 30 second clips and uploaded all of them to your youtube channel? That's exactly what the wiki does, except with a book. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:03, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per FOR2007.
:We're going to abstain from this vote (we're moreso concerned about citogenesis than we are copyright, admittedly, and dealing with the former generally implies dealing with the latter by proxy), but uh. We do kind of do ''exactly that'', as policy, for audio. Like, we know that's not what you meant, you meant uploading the ''whole thing'' in segments, but like, we do just outright have max-30 second excerpts for audio as a policy where going over that isn't allowed... ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:36, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} The 1993 movie was an awful adaptation that changed too much. I would want [[Bob Hoskins]]' Mario to remain separate from the the games' Mario. President Koopa is clearly very different from Bowser.
:There is a pretty big difference, we're not compiling every bit of information into the same page. The information is scattered across the wiki pages, it's just not comparible. By the way, I'm not opposing to removing book scans from the wiki. Maybe the proposal should have more than 2 options? [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 15:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
::Whether or not what the wiki is doing is 1:1 comparable to my example is irrelevant, what's relevant is that both practices are illegal and may net the owner of the site / YT channel a DMCA strike. You can theoretically read the entire SMB Encyclopedia just by using the search function on the wiki to look up each enemy's bio, and there's a chance far larger than zero that someone would be choosing to go that route instead of buying the book if the wiki actually had complete coverage of it, which is where we're headed now. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:07, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:::I'm still not convinced, sorry. [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 00:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
::::Yeah, I'm with Axis here. We're not having 100% coverage, just the bios, mistakes/errors/plagarism, and a gallery. Not a FULL ON EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK IS HERE! thing. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 08:38, April 24, 2024 (CST)


====Comments====
Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? This is one of the reasons why I always made it a point to keep citations to their earliest instance. However, there are still plenty of things that are unique to the book to our knowledge, like the tidbit of MIPS being Peach's pet. What happens to that info if the proposal passes? Not to mention, ''Super Mario Pia'' was released around the same time as ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' - do those profiles not count because they don't have the same global reach? I think maybe a cutoff date needs to be established. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:52, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
Haven't decided on an option but I will at least link [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/18#Different Version Characters|the original proposal that split them]]. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 19:18, April 4, 2024 (EDT)
:The proposal isn't about how the book is cited. The MIPS tidbit and citation can stay; the quote is supplementary, and if it constitutes the entirety of MIPS' description in the book, it can be handily removed with little impact on the subject's coverage and how its info is sourced. I omitted Super Mario Pia out of sheer oversight, admittedly, though given its anniversary nature I'm not sure if it's even sold anymore, and I believe official availability should be our primary cutoff, rather than the publishing date. I'd have Pia handled in another discussion. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:11, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
:It's interesting to read through this old discussion, especially how much the focus at the time seems to have been on specifically Daisy. Nobody in this whole proposal ''or'' the [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/17#Peach/Daisy in Film|"Peach/Daisy in Film" proposal]] before it ever suggests the idea of giving specifically Mario (film character) a separate article! I wonder how that happened. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 20:05, April 4, 2024 (EDT)
https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Remerge_most_Super_Mario_Bros._film_information <br>Here is my attempt that ended up being vetoed. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:01, April 4, 2024 (EDT)


Did this need to be one huge proposal? The fact that there are ''seven'' options as well as an "Other" option (which, how would that even work if it got the most votes?) suggests to me that the ''Mario Bros.'' movie live-action subjects have far too much range in how close they are to their OG counterparts for this to be resolved in one seven-day proposal. For instance, I mostly agree with the fifth option, except for the inclusion of the [[King (film character)|King]] among the merged characters (considering that unlike the [[Mushroom King]], he is neither the king of the Mushroom Kingdom nor [[Princess Peach|Peach's]] father (he's ''[[Princess Daisy (film character)|Daisy's]]'' father)).<br>If we were to add options for every little disagreement with the proposal author's reasoning in this particular instance, it would become a nightmare to try and find an appropriate option to vote on. I'd suggest splitting the proposal based on character roles (e.g. one for main characters, one for minor characters like Yoshi, one for creatures like Goombas, and one for references-in-name-only like [[Toad (film character)|Toad]], [[Big Bertha (film character)|Big Bertha]], etc.) [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 13:36, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
==Changes==
:I would argue that range from source material isn't much of a factor in so much as they're variants of a source character and my understanding is that we do sometimes merge whack variants of the same entity, such as Skeeters. I'd go for the straightforward option because I don't see much merit debating within gradience of who gets a separate article or not. {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:56, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
===Overhaul titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages===
::I'd still argue that there's a point where it's not so much a variant as it is an entirely new character that only uses an existing character name as a callback. The film's plot provides a framework for this, considering it is loosely based off of the ''Mario'' games' story: Princess Daisy is the damsel-in-distress, Koopa is the antagonist who kidnaps her, Goombas are his lackeys, Yoshi is a dinosaur with a long tongue who is also held captive by Koopa, and Mario and Luigi are the heroes. Those are definitely a variation of standard Mario features.<br>However, then there are characters like Big Bertha who shares no similarities with her namesake other than being... well, big. <small>Not to mention she should probably stay split anyway considering normal Big Bertha is an enemy species, while ''this'' Big Bertha is a unique character. Spike at the very least should also be split for similar reasons.</small> Big Bertha's connection to her original inspiration would at least be more plausible if, for example, she was a marine biologist or had a scene where she saved Mario from drowning or something. I'm a little more inclined to merge Toad, since he gives exposition about the fungus (which would line up with the original character's appearance), but then again, [[:File:SMBFilmCardH1.png|he was originally named Lemmy]], so the connection there may not have been intentional. And as for the King vs. the Mushroom King, the Mushroom King article is a catch-all for anytime the king of the Mushroom Kingdom. To include a King in that article who exists in a continuity where there is no Mushroom Kingdom seems a little odd. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 14:43, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
With the recent release of the [[Nintendo Switch]] remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]'', we have already seen the introduction of two new worlds - [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]], as well as their plus variants. However, while I was documenting levels for the remake, I have noticed an issue - since these worlds also change the numbering for [[Spooky House]], [[Mystic Forest]], and [[Twilight City]]'s level pages, this causes several concerns for me in regards to naming level articles with generic-named stage numberings in games where worlds are named:
:::To be fair, we can't think of how else to showcase the granularity of the options than the deluge of choices; short of something like a checkbox-esque "vote for this one if you think it should be split!" proposal, which is entirely unprecedented and we have no real way of handling. Is it clunky? Yes. But it's either this, a bunch of standalone proposals (which could get ''even more'' messy), or some entirely new form of proposal gets invented ''just'' to handle this. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:57, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
*Right now, the level numberings for the various levels in ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' are correspondent to the GBA version. If I attempt to move those pages to match the Switch numbering (for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 4-1) to "[[Level 5-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 5-1, Switch version)), this can cause several issues with us cleaning up all the links to other level pages, and is especially the case for links to various Mystic Forest (5-x > 7-x) and Spooky House (4-x > 5-x) pages.
::::I don't really see how the standalone option would make things messier. Is it that hard to keep track of multiple proposals? The choice would be between that or a list of options that is either unreadably long or doesn't have an option that aligns with your opinion due to something like an assumption by the author. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 21:29, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
*Related to above, the new [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]] pages have a slightly conjectural variation of the game's title. Take a look at this for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]]", aka the first stage of Merry Mini-Land.
**As a reminder: nowhere in any circumstance has the remake been titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''", it is simply titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''". It could be seen as confusing especially as there are some [[reissue]]s of games that are officially titled the same way too (like ''[[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS]]'').
**I attempted to get around this by initially naming the title of the article as "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch))", but it caused issues with rendering the title on top of the page.


By the by, what's this version of Spike called in the Japanese localization of the film? I think that's important to ask because we do in fact have [[Foreman Spike|''another'' Spike]] in this franchise, one who is decidedly NOT called "Gabon" in Japanese, ever. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:58, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
What I wanted to propose is to '''overhaul the titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages'''. Level articles that fall under this description are:
*Levels with generic numbering identifiers in worlds that are not named in any circumstance (including in-game and supplementary material like ''[[Nintendo Power]]''). Example is [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|World 1-1]] in ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''.
*Levels with generic numbering identifiers in named worlds. Examples include [[Level 1-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Level 1-1 in Mario Toy Company]] (from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''), and [[World 2-3 (Super Mario Bros. 3)|World 2-3 in Desert Land/Desert Hill]] from ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]''.
*Levels with names do not count, regardless if the world is named. This is true for various levels in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' ([[Make Eggs, Throw Eggs]]). These article names are kept as is.


On the contrary, the thought has crossed my mind to go in the other direction and have something done with the ''Paper Mario'' universe and characters, but it'd probably be controversial. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:21, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
Given that there are a lot of generic-named level articles that fall under this jurisdiction, this is a very '''large-scale''' proposal, and may affect most, if not all "x-x" level articles. This will require help from the wiki's higher staff, especially an administrator who can handle several article renames and moves at large. Due to this, please note that the effects of the proposal may not be always guaranteed to be '''immediate''' even if it is already passed, but I hope to get this done with everyone as soon as possible.  
:Strongly disagree, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/44#Deal with the duplicate Paper subjects in Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam|the arguments against all hold]]. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:51, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
::I would oppose covering all Paper Mario appearances in the Paper character articles and I would also oppose merging them all with their regular counterparts. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 17:25, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
:::You see, while the 1993 Mario movie characters are drastically different from their mainline game counterparts (or namesakes), the same can''not'' be said about the Paper Mario characters, which stay relatively close to the source material in comparison. Sure, the first three games gave most enemies a couple of design quirks that stand out from the mainline games, but they are still recognizable as those enemies.<br>Same deal with the 2023 Mario movie counterparts; they have some differences, but are still clear and recognizable as the same characters. {{User:Arend/sig}} 17:41, April 5, 2024 (EDT)


Regarding Iggy, unused scripts on the SMBMovieArchive website show that originally, there were other Koopaling-named characters (like Morton and Wendy as announcers), showing Iggy was an intentional reference. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 06:31, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
After brainstorming for a while, these are the possible formats we're going to aim for when making level pages, see below.
:But still, being named after another character doesn't necessarily make them the same character given how otherwise completely different they are, especially considering what's already been brought up about how characters like Toad were originally named differently. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:13, April 8, 2024 (EDT)
====Option 1: "(World/Game Name) - (Level Code)"====
This is the new page naming format for levels which is based on the naming format used for WiKirby (note for reference: levels in the ''[[wikirby:Kirby (series)|Kirby]]'' series are called "stages", while worlds are called "levels".) Examples of articles on WiKirby that follow this format are [[wikirby:Cookie Country - Stage 1|Cookie Country - Stage 1]] (Level 1-1 or Stage 1 of Cookie Country in ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]''), and [[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2]] in ''[[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble]]''.


This needs looked into some more as I can't remember for certain, but I seem to recall the script referring to the generic Dinohattan police officers as Koopa Troopas (a variation of that name was given to Goombas in earlier development). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:59, April 9, 2024 (EDT)
This makes it easier to update a level's numbering designation should any circumstances of adding new worlds in-between happen again (like how Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit were handled in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''). It can also make it easier to identify levels from each other easily without having to look up the name of the world first. This will also ensure moving articles if new worlds are added in remakes are made easier as well. Additionally, this will prevent game name confusion from occurring, specifically my issue with the Merry Mini-Land stages using the identifier "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''".


==Miscellaneous==
With this format, this is how it will work:
===Preserve April Fools' Proposals in BJAODN===
*For levels that use generic numbering (1-x) and are from a named world, they will be named "(World Name) - X-X". For example, in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', we can call Level 5-DK and Level 8-2 as "[[Level 5-DK|Spooky House - Level 5-DK]]" and "[[Level 6-2 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Twilight City - Level 8-2]]".
First of all, no, this isn't a delayed April Fool's joke--we are being 100% sincere about this proposal! You know it because we waited until after we had squared away the April Fool's proposals to actually bring this up formally.
**As a side note - if two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
**Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently. For example, in ''[[Hotel Mario]]'', levels are named as "Stage #", and Super Mario Wiki refers to their level articles with the title ("Stage # (Hotel Name)"). It can be changed to be something like "[[Stage 1 (Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel)|Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel - Stage 1]]".
*For levels that use generic numbering and are in '''unnamed''' worlds (eg. ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''), they will be named "(Game Name) - X-X". For example, take World 1-1 in ''Super Mario Bros.''. This can be named as "[[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1]]" instead. The "world" designator can be renamed to "Level/Area/Stage/Course" depending on how the game calls it.
**Some of you might be concerned with it conflicting with a certain job name in ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'' - "[[Super Mario Bros. W1-1?]]". It shouldn't conflict at all - the format of the title is seemingly close but in the end it's fairly different.
*Redirects can be made based on the original names of the articles. For example, if "[[Level 6-3 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" is moved to "Twilight City - Level 8-3", the former can be turned into a redirect that leads to the latter new title of the article itself, to make it easier to search for wiki readers who are more used to the old format. Another example is if "[[World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)]]" is moved to "Grass Land - World 1-2", where typing in "World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)" still leads to the article with the new name.
*Levels with names are already kept as is. If some level names from two or more games conflict due to them being the same, the name of the game should be placed in parenthesis for the associated articles, while the level of the game that is released first chronologically will keep its name as is (no game title in parenthesis after it.)
*If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.


Secondly, this has been discussed before, not [[MarioWiki talk:BJAODN#Allow section(s) for certain April Fools' proposals|once]] but [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Reserve April Fools' joke proposals to a new section|twice]], and the consensus at the time was basically "it's pointless and not that funny, so why bother?" ...As you can imagine, we're not a fan of either of these stances, so we have a brief overview of our counter-arguments to these statements.
====Option 2: "(World Name) - (Level Code)" and "(Level Code) (Game Name)"====
This is a variation of the first option which incorporates itself with the old level article naming system to make it more flexible to some situations especially for tackling commonly-searched terms like "World 1-1". This is how it will go:


* '''On pointlessness:''' Yes, archiving these in BJAODN ''is'' pointless! ...But so is the rest of BJAODN, and, paradoxically, that's kind of the point of it--that it's basically useless and for amusement only. The only "practical" thing it has are archives for the big April Fool's pages we create. The one and only time it was ever gearing up to have a "point" was to store [[Wario's Warehouse]] back when people still didn't believe it existed--then the author stepped up and said "yep, that's my work", and that entire thing was rendered moot, and BJAODN remains a mere archive for April Fool's things and, well, other deleted nonsense.
*Levels that use generic numbering and are from a named world will be named "(World Name) - Level X-X". Ex. [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]] becomes "Merry Mini-Land - Level 4-mm".
* '''On the humor:''' On the "not that funny once April Fool's is done" thing--we feel like it's kinda weird to dismiss a proposal on something that is inherently, a subjective take. Humor is notoriously fickle between different people; one person's complete snorefest is another person's knee-slapper. Sure, not all April Fool's proposals are these complete gut-busters, but neither is everything else in BJAODN. And heck, even if they aren't ''that'' funny, it's kind of in the name; it's not "Deleted Nonsense", it's "'''Bad Jokes and Other''' Deleted Nonsense".
**If two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
**Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently, whether it would be "Stage X-X", "Area X-X", or even simply "X-X".
**For redirects, the original names of the articles may serve as redirects, however this may be handled differently depending on certain circumstances (shifting of world number for various worlds in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' remake, for example).
*Levels that use generic numbering and are from worlds with no names will follow this format: "World X-X ('Game Name')". Examples of such are [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)]] and [[World 18-1]]. The game name is used to differentiate the level from other games featuring a level with the same name, as per usual.
*Levels with names are already kept as is.
*If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.


Especially in the wake of the effective renaissance of April Fool's proposals we had this year (no doubt due in part to a rather-timely proposal ''about'' April Fool's proposals, albeit moreso about denoting them as such pre-emptively), we feel it pertinent to possibly figure something out for this sooner, rather than later, while the concept's still fresh in everyone's mind. To this end, we've come up with three ideas:
I believe that identifying generically-named levels with numbered coding from each other should be made easier, especially if we need to look up information quickly for a friend struggling to find a level or its information. Right now, the current method of using game titles in parentheses makes it hard for such information to be easily looked up, and it has become more of an issue when we tried to fix up the level number coding and the articles for the new levels when documenting the Switch remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''. I hope this proposal serves to change this for the foreseeable future.
* '''Give it its own subpage per year:''' Whenever there's an arbitrary amount of April Fool's proposals for that year (let's say "3" for the time being, if this number needs to be adjusted we can do so later), we create a subpage alongside our main April Fool's archive page for proposals. If there aren't enough, they just go in the standard Proposals subpage for BJAODN--if memory serves, this means that 2021 and 2024 will get a subpage so far, though we may be wrong.
* '''All of them go to the Proposals subpage:''' Roughly the same as above, but in ''every'' case we send them to the standard Proposals subpage with no potential for splits. We do worry about this year in particular clogging the heck out of the page, but whatever works.
* '''Do nothing:''' We simply don't formally track these whatsoever in BJAODN, simple-as.


'''Proposer''': {{User|Camwoodstock}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|EleCyon}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 8, 2024, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT


====Support, with additional subpages====
====Option 1====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Our preferred option--keep the silliness alive, and keep it nice and tidy for the future.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
#{{User|Sparks}} Having tidiness makes for easier navigation.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} {{color|Pink Donkey Kong Sr. approves!|hotpink}} (Per proposal.)
#{{User|Tails777}} It's completely understandable that humor is subjective, but let's remember to look at it from another angle; it's not always about if the joke proposal is funny, it's also about how we as users interact with each other and the jokes that adds to the humor. That was my initial support reason back during [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/65#Reserve April Fools' joke proposals to a new section|back during this proposal]] (which, I do realize, wasn't ''exactly'' the point of the proposal, but let's not worry about that). My main point is, I one hundred percent support archiving our April Fool's joke proposals for the sake of celebrating our fun interactions with each other as people! Per proposal!
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} This is an excellent option and probably why we haven't archived as many of these joke proposals in the past. Per everyone else.
#{{User|BMfan08}} There's no fooling about this one. Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Yoshi Yoshi! (Per all. Also, i always wanted this to happen)
#{{User|Arend}} We preserve April Fool's Day archives, we preserve funnily bad proposals, why not April Fool's Day proposals? It's a lot better than scouring through ''countless'' pages of the Proposal page's revision history (and that's with 500 revisions per page in mind too).
#{{User|OmegaRuby}} We haven't done this already? Per all.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} YES PLEASE!
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all [[File:HamburgerSSBB.PNG|25px|link=Hamburger|A Hamburger in ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl''.]]
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Yeah, now the joke proposals will have a repo place to stay! (why is the vote #1?)
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Humorous remark goes here. Per all.
#[[User:Waddle D33|Waddle D33]] ([[User talk:Waddle D33|talk]]) I just spent the last half hour or so reading and appreciating the articles in the BJAODN section. Anyway, I agree that BJAODN would be a good home for those types of jokes.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Might as well archive these April Fools' proposals for someone who is interested.
#{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Oh, yes please!! I liked the last ones! Even though it took me a minute to figure out that they were joke proposals, I still like them! (I still want my ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' cheeseburger....)
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all.


====Support, all to the same subpage====
====Option 2====
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Secondary option--we do worry about the page growing too long for this, but it'd make sense for the time being.
#{{User|EleCyon}} - First choice, per proposal.
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} - This could help solve some level naming discrepancies.


====Do nothing====
====Keep as is====
#{{User|Hewer}} I don't really get why the problem of a few worlds in Mario vs. Donkey Kong getting their numbers changed warrants a massive change to how we name levels that forgoes our usual naming and identifier rules for no apparent reason. There was never a level called "Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1", it's just known as "World 1-1". I'd compare this to the case of Mario Kart tracks: for example, we have [[Wii Rainbow Road]], but [[Rainbow Road (Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)]]. We ''could'' rename the latter "GCN Rainbow Road" to be more neat and consistent, but it's never been officially called that, so we don't. I'd rather use that same logic and stick to official naming instead of enforcing our own version. And I don't see why only newer games should get identifiers for their titles - I feel like having both get identifiers, similar to the current system where identifier-less [[World 1-1]] is a disambiguation, makes more sense.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Hewer, changing our entire level naming system just for disambiguating some MVDK worlds is overkill. However, I could see the merits of using the world name as an identifier specifically for disambiguating worlds 4 and more of MVDK (e.g., [[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Level 4-1 (Merry Mini-Land)]]) and only in that specific case.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer. The ''MvDK (Switch)'' situation is overwhelmingly the exception, rather than the norm, so accounting for it on the levels for every single game that doesn't have this problem (so... ''basically every other Mario video game that has level articles'') is extremely overkill.
#{{User|JanMisali}} Per all. The proposal as written would be a lot of work for very little benefit, but implementing this for ''exclusively'' the relevant ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' stages would make those titles both less cluttered and more descriptive.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} per plexing
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. (please note that before MB64's vote, my vote was blank)
#{{User|YoYo}} per all.
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi


====Comments====
====Comments====
Is there any chance that the April Fools' proposals be merged with the April Fools' prank of that year? For example, all of the 2024 April Fools' proposals can be merged with [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/April Fool's 2024]]. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 19:47, April 2, 2024 (EDT)
Personally, I fail to see how this makes it any easier. With longer titles especially, the search dropdown's just gonna get cut off and you'll have a bunch of identical copies of the game title without being able to tell which is which (unless the functionality of it has been updated without me realizing). Also, I disagree with prioritizing remake over original with this. I'm not voting right now because I consider myself too tired to do so reliably, but those are my thoughts right now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
:Usually, when the main prank is moved to BJAODN, its corresponding pages are stored as their own subpage--[[MarioWiki:BJAODN/April Fool's 2024/Mushroom Kingdom Hearts|for example, Mushroom Kingdom Hearts is kept on its own page]], rather than being melded to the Main Page archive. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:53, April 2, 2024 (EDT)
 
::Okay. That makes sense. Subpages could work for the proposals then. {{User:Sparks/sig}} 19:55, April 2, 2024 (EDT)
I'll point out that "(''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' for Nintendo Switch)" as an identifier is supported by [[MarioWiki:Naming]]: "If two different games share the same title but appear on different consoles and the identifier needs to distinguish between them, the game name and console are used in this format: ({game name} for {console}). For example, [[Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Wii)|Beach Volleyball (''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' for Wii)]]." And you can tell the difference from something where it's part of the actual title like ''Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS'' thanks to the placement of the italics. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)


For reference, after looking at page history, the years that had at least three joke proposals were 2018 with exactly three (or [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/51#Pie for Everyone. Pie for EVERYONE. Pie. For. ALL.|four]]?), 2019 with five, 2020 with nine, 2021 with five (including [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Proposals#Remove removals|one]] that already got archived which we'd have to move), and 2024 with ten, so they'd all get their own subpages, and there was also one April Fools' proposal each in 2010 and 2023 (the former got immediately deleted though). Three of the four pie proposals in the main archive were technically April Fools' as well, unsure whether those should count. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:07, April 3, 2024 (EDT)
Given the problem is exclusively present in the MvDK levels, I feel like it makes more sense to simply use a format like [[Level 4-5 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Spooky House-5]] and [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Merry Mini-Land-mm]] for specifically that game and its remake, and leave the other courses and levels alone. This seems at least like an acceptable choice, given that the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''New Super Luigi U'' courses [[Stone-Eye Zone]] and [[Spike's Tumbling Desert]] are both being alternatively referred to as Layer-Cake Desert-1 in their respective articles; meaning that, if these NSMBU and NSLU courses hadn't gotten exclusive names, the wiki would've most likely went for the Layer-Cake Desert-1 format. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:19, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
: ''You are the unsung hero of this proposal''. We'd say if this passes in its current state, the Pie proposals that weren't tied to the aforementioned years should probably remain on the standard BJAODN Proposals section. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 14:57, April 5, 2024 (EDT)
:This seems like the best solution to me. Relying solely on parentheses for this leads to, I believe, everything after world 4 needing them because the numbers desync. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:00, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
 
Jdtendo does make a good point, however. Using the world's name in parenthesis for the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' worlds might be a better idea to go than mass renaming all the worlds to match what we're going for in the proposal. I might consider this should the proposal not pass at all, especially as I'm about to start documenting Slippery Summit levels soon. --[[User:EleCyon|EleCyon]] ([[User talk:EleCyon|talk]]) 21:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
 
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''

Revision as of 09:38, April 24, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Monday, May 6th, 09:47 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option on proposals with more than two choices.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail by a margin of three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 6, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)
Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)
Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)
Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)
Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)
Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)
Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)
Merge Start Dash with Rocket Start, Koopa con Carne (ended August 17, 2023)
Use italics for the full title of the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass, Hewer (ended September 15, 2023)
Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Decide which series certain Yoshi games are related to, GuntherBB (ended December 14, 2023)
Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)
Replace "List of Game Over screens" and "'Game Over' as death" sections with a "History" section, DrippingYellow (ended December 20, 2023)
Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)
Make major changes to the MarioWiki:Links page, PnnyCrygr (ended January 10, 2024)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the "Johnson" running gag into one page, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)
Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)
Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)
Merge Masterpieces to the Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Super Smash Bros. for Wii U articles, Camwoodstock (ended March 31, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Rename Beanstalk to Vine, DrippingYellow (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Expand Rhythm Heaven series coverage

The WarioWare and Rhythm Heaven series cross over with each other very frequently for various reasons. As such, this wiki currently has some limited coverage of Rhythm Heaven games. I believe that this coverage should be slightly expanded. While our fellow NIWA member Rhythm Heaven Wiki is doing a great job documenting these things and linking to it when relevant works, it would still be nice for the Super Mario Wiki to have all the WarioWare-related Rhythm Heaven content covered within its scope.

The new articles I suggest should be created are:

To be clear, these articles would only cover these subjects to the extent that they are relevant to the WarioWare series, much like how the Rhythm Heaven Megamix article is written. This is not a proposal to annex the Rhythm Heaven Wiki's coverage into our own.

Proposer: JanMisali (talk)
Deadline: April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Create articles for Rhythm Heaven Fever and all Rhythm Games that feature playable WarioWare characters

  1. JanMisali (talk) Per my proposal.

Only create an article for Rhythm Heaven Fever

  1. Hewer (talk) While we do have articles for the Mario minigames in Nintendo Land, these ones are, from what I can tell, less substantial and reskins of un-Mario-related minigames, so I feel like giving articles to every one is a bit overkill and covering them like we currently do on the Rhythm Heaven Megamix page is neater and gives more purpose to those pages. Having a Rhythm Heaven Fever article but covering the main thing connecting it to Mario on a separate page would be like if we split the Super Mario Mash-up from the Minecraft page. That said, giving Rhythm Heaven Fever guest appearance status seems reasonable.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary choice
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) This makes the most sense to us. While the Rhythm Game articles are a tad overkill (it'd be like making a Spleef "Tumble" article because of Minecraft's coverage on the wiki), given Rhythm Heaven Fever is retroactively the debut of Cicada, it seems only fair to at least give that game an article as a guest appearance. After all, if Art Style: PiCTOBiTS (our beloved) can have an article as a token guest appearance because you can use Mario items, why can't Rhythm Heaven Fever when it has the debut of a WarioWare character?
  4. JanMisali (talk) Second choice, per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.
  6. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per FanOfYoshi.
  7. BMfan08 (talk) Hesitant as I was at first, I think this option is fair enough. Per all.
  8. Arend (talk) After thinking about it, Cicada's debut in Fever COULD be likened to the whole Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic thing... somewhat, at least.

Only create articles for the eight Rhythm Games in Megamix that have WarioWare versions

Do nothing

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) First of all, we have Rhythm Heaven Wiki, which you even mentioned in your proposal. We can still practically find ways to cover all of the Super Mario content in Rhythm Heaven without going overboard, otherwise we may find ourselves with a successor to the Super Smash Bros. coverage issue. Also, when you said in your proposal that you thought it would be "nice," that's vague and based on personal opinion, since one could swap out Rhythm Heaven for anything (Bayonetta, Shin Megami Tensei, Terraria, etc.) Wiki scope should be about practicality, not whether someone thinks something is "nice."

Comments

@Super Mario RPG: Obviously "nice" was being used to mean "preferable given the described circumstances", not sure what gave you an impression otherwise. One could not swap out Rhythm Heaven for any other franchise as Bayonetta, Shin Megami Tensei, and Terraria have not had frequent crossovers with the WarioWare series. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

@Hewer, To be fair, there is precedent for giving Mario reskins of otherwise unrelated minigames dedicated articles, namely the Game & Watch Gallery series. I understand your point though, it might be overkill to have full coverage of all these minigames when they're already handled on the Rhythm Heaven Wiki. jan Misali (talk · contributions) 17:00, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

Removals

Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki

The wiki currently houses a sizeable number of transcriptions of information from the 2015 Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, mainly the Japanese edition, in the form of character and enemy profiles. I stated my concern here that this practice may infringe Dark Horse/Nintendo's copyright over the product, since, to my knowledge, the book's entire selling point is to inform you on the stuff you find in Mario games through bitesized blurbs. In incorporating these blurbs within its knowledge base, the Mario Wiki, a free resource, is not just impairing the very purpose of the book, but, given that it's still in print, may negatively impact its sales. In fact, that second point is the reason this proposal concerns this book only and not similar publications like Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia, which has long been out of print and has been superseded by the SMB Encyclopedia, making it highly unlikely that some big wig will send Porple a DMCA strike over something like Fire (100m)'s profile. When it comes to the 2015 Encyclopedia, though, that has a reasonable likelihood of happening and it's best the wiki enforces good faith.

On a similar basis, one user who engaged with the topic in the above talk page has also questioned the wiki's need to feature scans of the book's mistakes in its very article. Given the small size of each blurb, the scans are essentially taking away substantial chunks of information in a way that cannot be conceived as demonstrative or transformative under US Fair Use law.

What this proposal aims to do is the following:

  • remove encyclopedia bios listed on various articles, regardless of their source's language. Here's an example. Here's another.
  • delete the scans in the "List of English translation errors and typos not from the Super Mario Wiki" section of the encyclopedia's article, as well as any other scans of the book's contents, unless said content has been displayed by Nintendo or one of their official distributors for the purpose of promoting the book. To exemplify: This, this, and this image should be deleted if the proposal passes. This and this one should also be deleted, since the content depicted in these images hasn't been used by Shogakukan, Amazon, or some other official distributor to portray the Japanese edition on their online storefronts. On the other hand, the artwork shown in the article's gallery, such as this one, shouldn't be removed unless they depict textual information that infringes copyright.

A few notes:

  • Paraphrases of the encyclopedia's information will be allowed under the proposal, so the book's article may continue to describe its mistakes until further notice.
  • Small quotes of the book will also be permitted (e.g.: "This text is translated from the Japanese instruction booklet.") if they do not violate this proposal's requirements, albeit it's entirely up to editors to decide how small a quote should be and whether it fits US Fair Use.
  • Subject names unique to the encyclopedia are not concerned by this proposal.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: April 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.
  2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Book's only 9 years old, this is worrisome.
  3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. Having scans as "proof" of mistakes is especially odd, just use the book and page number as a source.
  4. MegaBowser64 (talk) Well, we don't want to get sued for 34 thousand dollars in the Federal Court of Malaysia now, do we? And we probably don't want a DMCA from Dark Horse/Nintendo either. Per all of yall (collectively)
  5. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. Good move, Koopa con Carne.

Oppose

  1. Axis (talk) I genuinely don't see how use of limited material from the book on pages relevant to the subject in question is by any means problematic.
  2. Hewer (talk) Per Axis.
  3. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Until we know what the book itself says, I'm opposing. We can't just go, "Oh, here's this thing from 9 years ago, we can't use images of it because copyright blah blah blah." That would set a precedent that should not get set. Super Mario Pia was brought up in this proposal, as was The Art of Super Mario Odyssey in the linked talkpage, but what about others? I don't want any bad precedents being set.

#Pseudo (talk) Per Axis. On second thought, choosing to abstain, at least for the time being.

Comments

@Axis Put it another way: how legal would it be if you cut down a copyrighted movie in 30 second clips and uploaded all of them to your youtube channel? That's exactly what the wiki does, except with a book. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:03, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

We're going to abstain from this vote (we're moreso concerned about citogenesis than we are copyright, admittedly, and dealing with the former generally implies dealing with the latter by proxy), but uh. We do kind of do exactly that, as policy, for audio. Like, we know that's not what you meant, you meant uploading the whole thing in segments, but like, we do just outright have max-30 second excerpts for audio as a policy where going over that isn't allowed... ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:36, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
There is a pretty big difference, we're not compiling every bit of information into the same page. The information is scattered across the wiki pages, it's just not comparible. By the way, I'm not opposing to removing book scans from the wiki. Maybe the proposal should have more than 2 options? Axis (talk) 15:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
Whether or not what the wiki is doing is 1:1 comparable to my example is irrelevant, what's relevant is that both practices are illegal and may net the owner of the site / YT channel a DMCA strike. You can theoretically read the entire SMB Encyclopedia just by using the search function on the wiki to look up each enemy's bio, and there's a chance far larger than zero that someone would be choosing to go that route instead of buying the book if the wiki actually had complete coverage of it, which is where we're headed now. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:07, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
I'm still not convinced, sorry. Axis (talk) 00:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
Yeah, I'm with Axis here. We're not having 100% coverage, just the bios, mistakes/errors/plagarism, and a gallery. Not a FULL ON EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK IS HERE! thing. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:38, April 24, 2024 (CST)

Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? This is one of the reasons why I always made it a point to keep citations to their earliest instance. However, there are still plenty of things that are unique to the book to our knowledge, like the tidbit of MIPS being Peach's pet. What happens to that info if the proposal passes? Not to mention, Super Mario Pia was released around the same time as Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. - do those profiles not count because they don't have the same global reach? I think maybe a cutoff date needs to be established. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:52, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

The proposal isn't about how the book is cited. The MIPS tidbit and citation can stay; the quote is supplementary, and if it constitutes the entirety of MIPS' description in the book, it can be handily removed with little impact on the subject's coverage and how its info is sourced. I omitted Super Mario Pia out of sheer oversight, admittedly, though given its anniversary nature I'm not sure if it's even sold anymore, and I believe official availability should be our primary cutoff, rather than the publishing date. I'd have Pia handled in another discussion. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:11, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

Changes

Overhaul titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages

With the recent release of the Nintendo Switch remake of Mario vs. Donkey Kong, we have already seen the introduction of two new worlds - Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit, as well as their plus variants. However, while I was documenting levels for the remake, I have noticed an issue - since these worlds also change the numbering for Spooky House, Mystic Forest, and Twilight City's level pages, this causes several concerns for me in regards to naming level articles with generic-named stage numberings in games where worlds are named:

  • Right now, the level numberings for the various levels in Mario vs. Donkey Kong are correspondent to the GBA version. If I attempt to move those pages to match the Switch numbering (for example: "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)" (Spooky House 4-1) to "Level 5-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)" (Spooky House 5-1, Switch version)), this can cause several issues with us cleaning up all the links to other level pages, and is especially the case for links to various Mystic Forest (5-x > 7-x) and Spooky House (4-x > 5-x) pages.
  • Related to above, the new Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit pages have a slightly conjectural variation of the game's title. Take a look at this for example: "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)", aka the first stage of Merry Mini-Land.
    • As a reminder: nowhere in any circumstance has the remake been titled "Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch", it is simply titled "Mario vs. Donkey Kong". It could be seen as confusing especially as there are some reissues of games that are officially titled the same way too (like Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS).
    • I attempted to get around this by initially naming the title of the article as "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch))", but it caused issues with rendering the title on top of the page.

What I wanted to propose is to overhaul the titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages. Level articles that fall under this description are:

Given that there are a lot of generic-named level articles that fall under this jurisdiction, this is a very large-scale proposal, and may affect most, if not all "x-x" level articles. This will require help from the wiki's higher staff, especially an administrator who can handle several article renames and moves at large. Due to this, please note that the effects of the proposal may not be always guaranteed to be immediate even if it is already passed, but I hope to get this done with everyone as soon as possible.

After brainstorming for a while, these are the possible formats we're going to aim for when making level pages, see below.

Option 1: "(World/Game Name) - (Level Code)"

This is the new page naming format for levels which is based on the naming format used for WiKirby (note for reference: levels in the Kirby series are called "stages", while worlds are called "levels".) Examples of articles on WiKirby that follow this format are Cookie Country - Stage 1 (Level 1-1 or Stage 1 of Cookie Country in Kirby's Return to Dream Land), and Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2 in Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble.

This makes it easier to update a level's numbering designation should any circumstances of adding new worlds in-between happen again (like how Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit were handled in the Switch version of Mario vs. Donkey Kong). It can also make it easier to identify levels from each other easily without having to look up the name of the world first. This will also ensure moving articles if new worlds are added in remakes are made easier as well. Additionally, this will prevent game name confusion from occurring, specifically my issue with the Merry Mini-Land stages using the identifier "Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch".

With this format, this is how it will work:

  • For levels that use generic numbering (1-x) and are from a named world, they will be named "(World Name) - X-X". For example, in the Switch version of Mario vs. Donkey Kong, we can call Level 5-DK and Level 8-2 as "Spooky House - Level 5-DK" and "Twilight City - Level 8-2".
    • As a side note - if two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
    • Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently. For example, in Hotel Mario, levels are named as "Stage #", and Super Mario Wiki refers to their level articles with the title ("Stage # (Hotel Name)"). It can be changed to be something like "Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel - Stage 1".
  • For levels that use generic numbering and are in unnamed worlds (eg. Super Mario Bros.), they will be named "(Game Name) - X-X". For example, take World 1-1 in Super Mario Bros.. This can be named as "Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1" instead. The "world" designator can be renamed to "Level/Area/Stage/Course" depending on how the game calls it.
    • Some of you might be concerned with it conflicting with a certain job name in Super Mario Maker 2 - "Super Mario Bros. W1-1?". It shouldn't conflict at all - the format of the title is seemingly close but in the end it's fairly different.
  • Redirects can be made based on the original names of the articles. For example, if "Level 6-3 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)" is moved to "Twilight City - Level 8-3", the former can be turned into a redirect that leads to the latter new title of the article itself, to make it easier to search for wiki readers who are more used to the old format. Another example is if "World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)" is moved to "Grass Land - World 1-2", where typing in "World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)" still leads to the article with the new name.
  • Levels with names are already kept as is. If some level names from two or more games conflict due to them being the same, the name of the game should be placed in parenthesis for the associated articles, while the level of the game that is released first chronologically will keep its name as is (no game title in parenthesis after it.)
  • If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.

Option 2: "(World Name) - (Level Code)" and "(Level Code) (Game Name)"

This is a variation of the first option which incorporates itself with the old level article naming system to make it more flexible to some situations especially for tackling commonly-searched terms like "World 1-1". This is how it will go:

  • Levels that use generic numbering and are from a named world will be named "(World Name) - Level X-X". Ex. Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch) becomes "Merry Mini-Land - Level 4-mm".
    • If two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
    • Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently, whether it would be "Stage X-X", "Area X-X", or even simply "X-X".
    • For redirects, the original names of the articles may serve as redirects, however this may be handled differently depending on certain circumstances (shifting of world number for various worlds in the Mario vs. Donkey Kong remake, for example).
  • Levels that use generic numbering and are from worlds with no names will follow this format: "World X-X ('Game Name')". Examples of such are World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.) and World 18-1. The game name is used to differentiate the level from other games featuring a level with the same name, as per usual.
  • Levels with names are already kept as is.
  • If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.

I believe that identifying generically-named levels with numbered coding from each other should be made easier, especially if we need to look up information quickly for a friend struggling to find a level or its information. Right now, the current method of using game titles in parentheses makes it hard for such information to be easily looked up, and it has become more of an issue when we tried to fix up the level number coding and the articles for the new levels when documenting the Switch remake of Mario vs. Donkey Kong. I hope this proposal serves to change this for the foreseeable future.

Proposer: EleCyon (talk)
Deadline: April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. Super Mario RPG (talk) Secondary choice.

Option 2

  1. EleCyon (talk) - First choice, per proposal.
  2. Super Mario RPG (talk) - This could help solve some level naming discrepancies.

Keep as is

  1. Hewer (talk) I don't really get why the problem of a few worlds in Mario vs. Donkey Kong getting their numbers changed warrants a massive change to how we name levels that forgoes our usual naming and identifier rules for no apparent reason. There was never a level called "Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1", it's just known as "World 1-1". I'd compare this to the case of Mario Kart tracks: for example, we have Wii Rainbow Road, but Rainbow Road (Mario Kart: Double Dash!!). We could rename the latter "GCN Rainbow Road" to be more neat and consistent, but it's never been officially called that, so we don't. I'd rather use that same logic and stick to official naming instead of enforcing our own version. And I don't see why only newer games should get identifiers for their titles - I feel like having both get identifiers, similar to the current system where identifier-less World 1-1 is a disambiguation, makes more sense.
  2. Jdtendo (talk) Per Hewer, changing our entire level naming system just for disambiguating some MVDK worlds is overkill. However, I could see the merits of using the world name as an identifier specifically for disambiguating worlds 4 and more of MVDK (e.g., Level 4-1 (Merry Mini-Land)) and only in that specific case.
  3. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Hewer. The MvDK (Switch) situation is overwhelmingly the exception, rather than the norm, so accounting for it on the levels for every single game that doesn't have this problem (so... basically every other Mario video game that has level articles) is extremely overkill.
  4. JanMisali (talk) Per all. The proposal as written would be a lot of work for very little benefit, but implementing this for exclusively the relevant Mario vs. Donkey Kong stages would make those titles both less cluttered and more descriptive.
  5. LinkTheLefty (talk) per plexing
  6. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all. (please note that before MB64's vote, my vote was blank)
  7. YoYo (talk) per all.
  8. MegaBowser64 (talk) Per FanOfYoshi

Comments

Personally, I fail to see how this makes it any easier. With longer titles especially, the search dropdown's just gonna get cut off and you'll have a bunch of identical copies of the game title without being able to tell which is which (unless the functionality of it has been updated without me realizing). Also, I disagree with prioritizing remake over original with this. I'm not voting right now because I consider myself too tired to do so reliably, but those are my thoughts right now. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

I'll point out that "(Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)" as an identifier is supported by MarioWiki:Naming: "If two different games share the same title but appear on different consoles and the identifier needs to distinguish between them, the game name and console are used in this format: ({game name} for {console}). For example, Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Wii)." And you can tell the difference from something where it's part of the actual title like Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS thanks to the placement of the italics. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 02:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

Given the problem is exclusively present in the MvDK levels, I feel like it makes more sense to simply use a format like Spooky House-5 and Merry Mini-Land-mm for specifically that game and its remake, and leave the other courses and levels alone. This seems at least like an acceptable choice, given that the New Super Mario Bros. U and New Super Luigi U courses Stone-Eye Zone and Spike's Tumbling Desert are both being alternatively referred to as Layer-Cake Desert-1 in their respective articles; meaning that, if these NSMBU and NSLU courses hadn't gotten exclusive names, the wiki would've most likely went for the Layer-Cake Desert-1 format. ArendLogoTransparent.pngrend (talk) (edits) 11:19, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

This seems like the best solution to me. Relying solely on parentheses for this leads to, I believe, everything after world 4 needing them because the numbers desync. Ahemtoday (talk) 15:00, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

Jdtendo does make a good point, however. Using the world's name in parenthesis for the Mario vs. Donkey Kong worlds might be a better idea to go than mass renaming all the worlds to match what we're going for in the proposal. I might consider this should the proposal not pass at all, especially as I'm about to start documenting Slippery Summit levels soon. --EleCyon (talk) 21:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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