Template talk:Lost

"Inadequate"?

So, the way this template is being used is to denote any Lost Media, but the actual fine print states that this is for topics with "inadequate" coverage... But then still only suggests to remove the tag if the media is found outright, rather than if it's "adequate" coverage of a topic that happens to be lost. The category it places onto pages, Category:Articles with inadequate lost media documentation, only confuses things further; a lot of these pages, such as Shitamachi Ninjō Gekijō, provide very in-depth coverage of their subjects despite us missing pieces of them. There's no distinction in the category between something like SNG, which has multiple sub-pages just for it, and, say, the Fruit by the Foot decoder machine. We feel like this hinges back on the conundrum of this being a strange hybrid of maintenance template and navigation template.

Literally, if the category was just renamed "Lost Media" and the disclaimer at the bottom mentioning "inadequate coverage" was removed, this would not be an issue. What gives? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:23, April 28, 2025 (EDT)

Add the documented=yes parameter to remove the "inadequate" messaging and categorization? --Steve (talk) 20:29, April 28, 2025 (EDT)

True, though we do feel it's a little strange to have this in the first place when a lot of the "inadequate" coverage is, inherently, due to factors outside of our own control, and the language is so subjective. While it's fine in the case of something like, say, a stub template, usually a stub template is used on a subject where there's a very clear idea of what a more "complete" version would look like. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:35, April 28, 2025 (EDT)

I don't think this needs to be a notice at all. It's not an emergency to tell the reader that something is lost in the same way that it is to tell them that we made up a name, for example. The specific nature of how something is lost can be described in the article body for each unique case rather than using a garish box to do it. If we are going to remove the adequacy tracking, the one thing I find somewhat interesting/useful about the template, then I would rather delete this template altogether and simply keep Category:Lost media as a normal category added to the bottom of the relevant pages. --Steve (talk) 20:48, April 28, 2025 (EDT)

To be honest... We've kinda felt the same way. If it had to be a template, it would be better off with some bespoke unique way of denoting the subject is lost, rather than hijacking the maintenance template, well, template. Even then, there's not many ways to do that. Template:Disambig would be nice, but that's made for footers, and we don't see any reason to use the top right corner a-la what featured pages use. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 21:12, April 28, 2025 (EDT)

Determine what to do with this template

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

failed to reach consensus 4-0-0-3-1-0-1
We've thought long and hard about this (see the convo above), and we think we've made up our mind. The thing that made us think to do this is the Crazy Junior section on the list of unofficial media acknowledged by Nintendo, which as of proposal, is marked as an section with inadequate lost media documentation.

Why is it marked for that? Well, there's no ROM available online. This template is marking the section as being "inadequate", when it has a marquee, cabinet, and instructions, and explains the situation with Crazy Junior just fine in prose. Literally the only thing missing are gameplay details that would, inherently, only be available if a ROM had resurfaced, a factor outside of our control entirely. But that being said, it is missing that information, so inadequate it is! Let's put it in Category:Articles with inadequate lost media documentation, which is under Category:Maintenance. Better find this old motherboard if you want a shot of marking this as adequate!

...So, you can see the problems, right? For one, "inadequate" is at best, extremely variable based on what is lost, and at worst, entirely arbitrary. For every piece of lost media where, despite the absence of some key things, we can get a clear image of how it operated through other sources, like Mario Factory's patents and flyers, or Donkey Kong Planet's many publications showcasing its lineup, there's at least a dozen Go-GURT Factory!s and Fruit by the Foot decoder machines, which only exist as cached web pages or single images serving as evidence for their existence, which hinged upon flash files or javascript that has since become missing in action.

A page like the Fruit by the Foot decoder machine is, in all honesty, probably about as close to "complete" as it's going to be unless the actual files required for the page to function resurface somehow; the documentation being incomplete or "inadequate" is a factor literally out of our own control, so it doesn't make sense to track these as a bespoke maintenance category. If a page on lost media is incomplete and it could be more in-depth without having the media in question found, a stub template should be used; not this parameter. And yes, you can argue on a case-by-case basis what pages should be "adequate", but that would equate to many, many proposals about roughly the same topic that, at the end of the day, ultimately comes down to some level of subjectivity based on trying to measure "how lost" a piece of Lost Media is.

In short, this parameter definitely shouldn't exist. At all. At best, it's redundant to stub, and at worst, it is a maintenance category that is functionally impossible to resolve.

However, if the parameter was removed, we're still unsure if this template should even... Be a template, in the first place. Porple mentioned he's unsure if there's a reason for it to be a notice when a piece of media being lost could easily be conveyed via prose. And to be honest, we find that hard to argue against. With text, one could not only explain easily how something is lost media, but it could even be expanded later on if a piece of media is found, clarifying how it was eventually found--something you lose out on entirely with a bespoke notice template that is to be removed if a piece of lost media is found.

While we thought about maybe visually changing it, there's really no way to do that without creating a fully new form of template. A template like Template:Disambig is designed for the footer of a page, a template like Template:FA is designed for the corner of a page, and both of them are not designed for sections.

So, our solution is... Well, it doesn't have to be a template at all, just make it a category. We could maybe distinguish them between pages and sections like we already do with Category:Lost media and Category:Articles with lost media sections, or we could meld them all to one unified Lost Media category. Having Lost Media categories is genuinely helpful to have, even if trying to distinguish between lost media that has "adequate" and "inadequate" documentation is a fool's errand.

Alternatively, we could keep the template, and just remove the "documented" parameter altogether. While we still think prose is better, we do see the appeal for the sake of pages with only sections about Lost Media. Or, scorched earth, just delete everything Lost Media related! Who needs a category, anyways?! ...We don't think we like this one that much, as there is still some merit to a Lost Media category. And, of course, there's the status quo option, but we've hopefully conveyed why we dislike that.

Also, in the event the Lost template is deprecated in favor of a category, please keep this template but mark it as abandoned; mostly for the sake of page histories, but it would make locating pages to give the category/categories, if sections get their own category, far easier.

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: May 26, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 9, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 16, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Convert to categories (both page and section)

1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal. This template as a whole is not as effective as simply saying how it's lost, and the "documented" parameter is an absolute nightmare scenario for meta categories, being a maintenance category that, inherently, can be reaosnably expected to never be resolved, ever; the exact opposite of what you would want out of a maintenance category.
2. Nelsonic (talk) Yeah, this template existing is one of the reason that Chuck Quizmo's Quiz got most of its meat removed. And on some occasions, things cannot be truly classified as "lost" media, i.e. if said media was footage of a real event. For example, Slamfest '99 or The Beast Is Back Tour. Both events happened, there's a picture of the truck and people are still selling the t-shirts online, and there's photos of Slamfest, but none of the photos of The Beast Is Back Tour exist, and the entirety of the Slamfest broadcast is lost. Technically here, the event itself isn't lost media, just the photos and videos are, which doesn't really qualify for a lost media template in my opinion, since the page is about the event itself and not the footage or pictures. And yes, I agree that sometimes the actual media itself is near-impossible to track down, i.e. Dueling Drums, Yoshi's Island Slider, or Beat Up Bowser!. Anything related to Dueling Drums now appears to exist exclusively in the void, there's not even any text to describe the Yoshi's Island Slider on its .JHTML page, and Beat Up Bowser! was exclusive to Camp Hyrule, making it unlikely to resurface any time soon.
3. Sparks (talk) Per all.
4. Rykitu (talk) Per all. I think the reason why the Lost template was created was because of a message I left on the talk page for the stub template. And a lost template was proposed and then approved. So I don't think the Lost template should be replaced with a stub template. But if there is discourse over what counts as "inadequate" and we are still signifying what is lost with this category, then thats OK.

#Waluigi Time (talk) Maintenance templates imply something to do with the state of the article or our organizational decisions. Being lost is something related to the subject itself, and should be relayed in the article's text rather than kept out of the way in a template.

Keep template, remove note parameter and re-define "documented" ("inadequate" being any page where there is information that could reasonably be added, but is absent)

1. Waluigi Time (talk) Per my comment.
2. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per Waluigi Time's comment.
3. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per all.

Keep template, remove both note and "documented" parameters (explaining reason via prose)

1. Camwoodstock (talk) Secondary option. While we still prefer a category, we do understand the appeal of the form factor of a template. Even still, we think the "documented" parameter does more harm than good; it would be better if this was like Template:Conjectural or Template:Dev name.

Keep as-is (status quo)

1. Koopa con Carne (talk) This template is a great way to immediately signal and emphasize to readers that documentation on a work is poor because it's inaccessible. It gets the job done better than a surreptitious category or a note tucked away somewhere in the article's body, and is no more "garish" than literally any other maintenance tag on the wiki. The distinction between adequate and inadequate documentation can be indeed subjective, but the disparity becomes obvious between articles like Captain Toad's Dungeon Dash! (which covers everything about the game) and that Bowser punching game; it's important to communicate to readers in some form that the article is encompassing and, as best as it can be, realiable in spite of the condition of what it describes. Indeed, regarding the Captain Toad example I gave, that game was documented here before it became lost. Bottom line: the article's body concerns itself with the contents of a given work, and not the state of its existence. The template addresses that.

Comments (at a loss)

@Koopa con Carne - Out of curiosity, as it is a maintenance template, care to explain how we could give Beat Up Bowser! "adequate" coverage compared to what's already on the page, without having the files to the 2001 version on-hand? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 12:50, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock The Fruit by the Foot decoder machine might still be functional; the field where the user could submit codes to get tips appears to still work (though what the codes are, since they were on physical Fruit by the Foot wrappers, is still unknown), though none of the images have been archived. Nelsonic (talk) 17:10, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

Camwoodstock, you have to consider that coverage of lost media doesn't have to be initiated after said media becomes lost. Both Dr. Mario World and the Captain Toad HTML game I mentioned in my vote had been covered in detail before the games became unplayable to the public, and readers deserve to know that they can get a comprehensive idea of them after reading their pages on the wiki. What you're proposing is removing that extra bit of transparency from the site.

If the template instead states that coverage is inadequate, that is to encourage people who have (reliable) knowledge of the subject, to contribute said knowledge. You can argue that it would mostly entail the media being found in the first place, but it that's not necessary--information can be derived from screenshots, video recordings, and miscellaneous descriptions, too. The smaller the game was (e.g. an HTML minigame or advergame), the more can be gleaned from such material and potentially fully realize its coverage without the game itself even being found. Furthermore, and most importantly, the parameter places the article in a dedicated category of lost media articles that prioritizes them among other lost media and theoretically gives them some exposure. You remove that, and all the articles that may need the attention of someone knowledgeable are muddled up with the ones that are fine. It's like if the Lost Media Wiki merged their varied categories into one uncurated mess, admittedly to a much lesser degree, but still great enough that I wouldn't personally find it more conducive to better coverage in any way.

Now, I'm not saying that the way this is handled is fully adequate (lol), but it's certainly better than to just completely dismiss this system as useless simply because the template doesn't meet the standard entrenched vision of a "maintenance" template or something. A work's state of existence is something that doesn't pertain to the contents of the work itself, hence why I wouldn't cover it as though it was (i.e. in its article's body), and if most of these lost media articles are going to convey the same message of "this work is lost", might as well turn it into a boilerplate. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:18, May 12, 2025 (EDT), edited 17:25, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

In regards to the argument that "we can simply cover these before they become lost", that would make sense... If every item on here was after the Wiki was made. How exactly were we meant to cover something like Waluigi's Foot Fault before it went down when its frame of existence, both its release and removal, predates the wiki entirely? Even for more things like Mario Factory that do have "adequate" coverage, those were over a decade before the Wiki launched in 2005; is the idea that we should've simply been in a specific university in Japan 11 years before the wiki's founding, just to improve coverage?
Dr. Mario World in particular is a rather poor example, as it isn't actually flagged as "Lost Media" whatsoever; being defunct =/= becoming lost media. A game shutting down doesn't un-release it, the app doesn't delete itself from people's phones. While yes, an article could be made while the subject matter is ongoing, and in fact, that's why we even have Wario's Warehouse preserved, that is not a realistic goal to put onto a maintenance category with 121 distinct pages. Statistically speaking, a good portion of those only got their pages when it was too late, and a few more we physically couldn't have covered while they were ongoing, because the Wiki literally didn't exist yet.
If we wanted to signal for someone with better knowledge to add onto the page, that's better achieved with a stub template, and after a certain point--a point that is far easier to reach when talking about Lost Media, mind you, where there is a finite amount of knowledge to go around--you hit a point where you basically understand everything about a given piece that you can, short of new information being uncovered or the piece of media being found. There is only so much more one could say about something like Chuck Quizmo's Quiz unless the media in question resurfaces. If you really need to denote a piece of lost media's coverage isn't up to standard, the stub template is all you need; we don't need a bespoke system that, despite supposedly being for "more information is out there, but is not covered here", is being used interchangeably with "this is literally all we know, which isn't much." The former is redundant to stub, and the latter (what we guess would be considered "low-information lost media") isn't something particularly worth tracking as its own bespoke category, let alone as a maintenance category.
We don't suggest changing to a category lightly; believe us, there's a reason the proposal took a bit of time between the conversation and release. But in basically every respect, the only benefit we can think of to a template is that it makes it easier to denote a specific section as being about lost media, and everything else--from the baffling "maintenance" aspect of it when the problems in question could only be resolved either with a rediscovery out of our own control, or a literal time machine, to the general lack of reason for the template in comparison to proper descriptive writing--is either not up to standard, or is actively worsening things on a meta level, by clogging the maintenance section up with a category that is filled with a mix of things that could have either been stub tags, or are outright impossible tasks to complete. What good is a maintenance category if it is fundamentally impossible to fulfill its goals? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 18:37, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

Dr. Mario World was previously marked as "lost media", I removed the template just because I wanted it to be consistent with Super Mario Bros. 35 after the discussion about that. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 19:36, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

KCC does make a good point - it would be nice to immediately communicate to readers the state of our coverage on lost media. I don't think this is currently handled well (Captain Toad's Dungeon Dash! being a prime example, the notice that it's lost is front and center while the statement that we've fully covered it is much smaller), but maybe we can rework it to be more helpful to our readers without throwing away the template entirely. If I were handling it, this is what I would suggest:

• Because of its peculiar nature, declassify this as a maintenance category. While it would be nice if these were pages we could reasonably deal with, we don't know when (or if) more information on these subjects will surface.
  • I took a closer look at it and other templates like this aren't classified under maintenance, such as Template:Conjectural and Template:Another language. These make perfect sense, sometimes more suitable names are hiding in plain sight but most of the time we're just at the mercy of Nintendo to hopefully name/localize it someday.
• Ditch the explanation of why the media is lost and move that to the page's text. First of all, if the purpose of this template truly is to tell readers about the state of our coverage of the subject, then it's unneeded here and is only muddying the waters of this template's purpose. Second, I strongly disagree that it's not worth covering there for not being an intrinsic part of the subject, you could just as easily make the same argument for doing away with game reception sections.
• That only leaves the adequate/inadequate portion of this template. I don't think this is necessarily as complicated as it's been made out to be in this proposal - if we're pretty sure we've documented everything there is to know about the subject, it's adequate. If not, then it's inadequate. Easy!

Thoughts? -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 19:43, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Waluigi Time I like this idea. getngear.com originally had an explanation for how the contents of the site were lost, but that was then moved to the template, creating a sentence-long reason for why the media was lost within the template, something that fits much better within the article itself. The one thing that bugs me is that there are differing types of lost media, as I pointed out in my vote above. The Beast Is Back Tour and Slamfest '99 aren't technically lost media, or they are at least a different type of lost media. They are real events that actually occurred, unlike, say, The Paper Mario: Sticker Star Contest that Teletoon held, which took place mostly - if not entirely - digitally. As @Camwoodstock mentioned, we'd likely need multiple categories for lost media, though I believe that in addition to what was previously mentioned, a potential Real-life events with lost documentation category may be required. It is not needed currently, since Slamfest, The Paper Mario: Sticker Star Contest, and The Beast Is Back Tour are so far - as far as I remember - the only things currently here that fit this category.

Secondly, I am unsure what to do in regards to completely functioning media that is only missing some amount of the results screens, i.e. Es-tu écolo?, Et toi, si tu étais Maire... hein?, and Nintendo 64 Funtastic Series Personality Test. If there were more of these, again, I would suggest a category for Media with lost results screens or something along those lines, but there are currently only a very small amount of these cases. The reason that I bring this up is because the lost media template being at the top of the page can be slightly misleading, since it could potentially make someone think that the game itself is lost as opposed to the screens shown after answering all of the questions in the quiz. This doesn't really fit into the category for articles with lost media sections either, since the games themselves do only feature a small portion of content that is currently lost, though the article itself is not categorizing this under a specific section.

Third, the same applies for games or articles that are missing certain images, i.e. Lost in the DK Isles or Box Art Challenge. The majority of the game is archived and playable, and the screen with the answers is archived, though none of the images are archived. While the images are immensely important to these games, unlike the case I stated beforehand with The Beast Is Back Tour, but this is, in the grand scheme of things, only a small portion of the actual media being lost. This has happened multiple times in these types of articles, such as the previous two I mentioned and the Fruit by the Foot decoder machine, in addition to the videos being missing from Scene of the Crime. However, this is still not enough for a full "Articles with lost images" category.

Fourth, I am unsure what to do about games with content that will likely not resurface, yet the majority of the information regarding them has been dug up, i.e. Maestro Mario. What is currently written in the article is likely the majority of what the game is about, the only things missing are some of the in-between pieces regarding menus and what the player actually had to physically do, though the physical goal of the game - playing music in the same sequence as your opponent - is currently documented in the article. The thing is, though, there are even less cases of this compared to what I have previously mentioned. Donkey Poll and Wario Cheat of the Day have a semi-similar thing going on, though decompiling those files reveals a lot less about the games than it does for Maestro Mario.

Lastly, there's Bug Race and Mario's Matching Madness. Both .SWF files have been archived, though certain functions in the code - or something along those lines - have broken, rendering the games unbeatable. I feel there's a distinction between this and lost media, though, again, like the previous cases here, there aren't enough instances of this occurring to warrant a full category for Games with partially lost code or something along those lines. I mean, the previously mentioned Lost in the DK Isles and Box Art Challenge might fit this category, since the images can be considered an integral part of the game, though that would then draw what could be considered an unneeded distinction between images being lost and code itself being partially nonfunctional. Nelsonic (talk) 20:52, May 13, 2025 (EDT)

I agree with Waluigi Time's ideas. I understand the issue with this being a maintenance template, but I don't get why deleting it entirely is a better solution than just making it not a maintenance template. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 04:16, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

While we'd still personally prefer a category rather than a template, we can at least understand the merit in just making this a mere "notice" template akin to conjectural or another language, rather than the maintenance template it currently is; keeping the template form factor, but completely removing the "adequate"/"inadequate" parameters entirely. Is it too late to add that as an option for the proposal? :o ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:18, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

Looks like there's still time to edit the proposal. That being said, I would only support that option if the template was converted solely to inform readers if our coverage of the subject is complete or not, like I said. Anything other than that I don't think should be a template at all. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 20:36, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

Waluigi Time, that is fine with me! -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:15, May 16, 2025 (EDT)

What is lost media?

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

This is a big one, so buckle up.

One thing I have noticed ever since this templates creation is how inconsistent the definition seemingly is. When this template was created, I added the template on everything I considered lost media at the time, that being, "If the piece of media isn't available to be accessed in it's entirety on the Internet, it is lost media". A couple months later, people started removing the template as they believed it wasn't lost. Having such arguments as "you can still buy the product online", "you can play it in an arcade", or "not having scans online does not mean it's lost media", which I can agree with now, except that last one. But everybody's opinions is different, so I let it be. Until now (probably).

As of right now, the rules as for what counts as lost media are as follows: "a piece of media isn't "lost" just because it's not available for free on the Internet. If it can be found on eBay or at a library, it's not lost." Which I can understand. Just because the piece of media isn't available on the Internet does not mean the information isn't widely available. Just purchase it off of eBay or get it from a library and scan, rip, or dump it yourself. Ok, but I feel like we should draw a line at how lost a piece of media is for it to be considered lost media.

First of all, buying them from eBay. Some of the Nelsonic Game Watch games and all the Super Mario Bros. Watches have not been dumped online. You can't play them on MAME. But don't worry, you can buy them on eBay for a couple hundred bucks! Going by the "not available on the Internet" definition, all Nintendo Switch 2 games would be lost because it is impossible to emulate as of now due to Nintendo bricking your console if you try to. In fact, almost every NGW game on eBay cost less than a Switch 2. If the piece of media can't be accessed on the Internet unless purchased, should there be a certain cost that should draw the line between lost and found, maybe less than X amount is found and more than X amount is lost? I would also like to bring up an example of widely regarded lost media that falls into the exact same category as the NGW games. That being, Uncle Walt, an unauthorized Disney film that barely had any information on it for years until it showed up on eBay for a short while before being bought quickly buy a hoarder, twice. So even if it is on eBay, that doesn't necessarily mean it is found media. I think this image describes it perfectly. So maybe money isn't a good way to split the found from the lost. Maybe the amount of times it has been seen on eBay should decide its status? But measuring that may be difficult. So maybe make it depend on how much listings there are of it at a time. That's a better option.

I also want to briefly mention region exclusive media, as it's only going to cost more for importation, and just rarer in general. Going by the "if it isn't available on the Internet" definition, all of Super Mario-kun is lost because from my knowledge, no scans of it exist on the Internet unless you buy them online. The "limited listings" rule also applies to Super Mario Bros. Monogatari (the inspiration for this proposal to finally leave my head.)

Now for libraries, I don't even think they should even be considered to prove a piece of media is found. Sure, you can borrow them if they just so happen to be there and you have a card for specifically that library. That is way too many requirements if you want to experience the piece of media. It might as well just be lost. Super Mario no Kōtsū Anzen falls right into that category. As you can only view it if you meet the following qualifications:

• You are in Japan.
• Your local library just so happens to have a copy.
• You have a card for that library.
• You have a degree in education.

Or, the easier option that all of us most certainly don't qualify for.

• You are in Japan.
• You are an elementary schooler.
• Your class just so happens to experience a viewing of the video.

That is a lot of steps and qualifications just to view this Mario safety PSA for young children. So much so we consider it lost! And, while imports and high prices for products are much easier to obtain then meeting those qualifications, they still have a lot of steps to go through to experience the media.

Now for Arcade games. Experiencing these lost arcade games also has a lot of steps to it. If you want to play Būbū Mario and Super Mario Attack right now, you must:

• Be in Japan.
• Find an Arcade or mall that just so happens to have one of those games.
• Have money in coins with you.
• Have enough courage to ride a childrens ride in public (if Būbū Mario is what you want to play.)

These are undoubtedly lost media to most people, as the template hasn't been removed on those pages. And Super Mario Attack has a Lost Media Wiki article.

There's still one more type of media I would like to discuss. The status on these being lost or found is rarely discussed. Those being games that can't be dumped properly and have to be simulated rather than emulated.

Technically, you can dump mechanical arcade games that don't have screens. They just can't be emulated well due to their nature. Such as slot machines, roulette games, pinball games, vending machines, ball-throwing games, and many others. That is when simulation comes in! Games like Super Mario Bros. Mushroom World and Mario Kart 64, the slot machine can't be emulated perfectly due to their gameplay being impossible to dump. Thankfully, there are simulations for pinball games and slot machines that include those games. Should the lost status for these depend on if simulations for the games exist? That is up for you to decide. The same logic also applies to Ball-in-a-maze toys, electronic water games™, pinball toys, and even board games. Stuff like that is impossible to emulate. Maybe there are certain elements of the game you can dump (you could probably dump the sounds and lights from the Dynatech Play2O's) but simulation is necessary if you want a somewhat accurate experience. For stuff like board games, tabletop simulator exists, and we do have a lost template on a board game because it's rules aren't available. Should that decide what board games are lost?

Below are various definitions that this template can follow by. Vote for which ones you believe is true.

Proposer: Rykitu (talk)
Deadline: August 26th, 2025, 23:59 GMT

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in it's entirety on the Internet, it is lost media"

not lost media 0-8

I agree!

I disagree!

1. Rykitu (talk) Pre-Switch 2 Rykitu would definitely support this definition, but now that the Switch 2 is out, I don't think so. Mario Kart World is far from lost media.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Let's start with a quick metaphor, and we promise it'll make sense, at least for a little bit. Is a cup and ball toy "lost media" because it's not online? Obviously not, it still exists somewhere out there. "Lost media" should mean that the ability to access it is impossible not just within digital means, but within any means for your average person; there is a pretty hard line between the difficulty in us, say, checking the (unscanned) guidebook for Princess Peach: Showtime!, and the fact that we literally cannot play Mario Factory because there have been zero Game Processor units that have resurfaced in the modern day, let alone copies of that game.
3. Hewer (talk) The template provides a definition of "lost media": "a work that used to be available to the public, but is now partially or entirely inaccessible". No mention of the internet there.
4. Maw-Ray Master (talk) I bought a copy of Zur Fernseh-Serie Super Mario Bros. - Spiele und Geschichten through Amazon, which doesn't have full scans on the Internet, so no, a media is not lost just because it can't be completely experienced on the Internet.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Lost media is best understood as a work that is inaccessible to the general public, in my opinion. Just because it's not accessible in a specific way, that doesn't make it lost.
6. Nelsonic (talk) Per all.
7. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
8. Salmancer (talk) Per all, but also categories benefit from following intuitive logic and this exception is not intuitive.

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in it's entirety on the Internet, but can be purchased for a high amount, it is lost media"

not lost media 1-7

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) If Nintendo for no reason decides to release a Mario game for the price of a million dollars that has not been emulated, I'm pretty sure that would count as lost media.

I disagree!

1. Camwoodstock (talk) For the most part, this is just scalping. Unless this is a Mario Kart XXL scenario in which the game is being actively hoarded and prevented from public distribution despite being otherwise found, we wouldn't count this as being "lost". A cup and ball being scalped for 10,000 dollars isn't "lost", it's just overpriced.
2. Hewer (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
3. Maw-Ray Master (talk) A high price doesn't mean that it is impossible to purchase.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above. Being unable/unwilling to pay the price tag doesn't make it lost either. A "high amount" is also subjective and relative to the product.
5. Nelsonic (talk) I have seen some games go for ridiculously high prices, but they are still theoretically able to be purchased and experienced.
6. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all. Even if it is expensive, it still CAN be purchased.
7. Salmancer (talk) This proposal feels like its approaching things from the wrong angle. I think its actually about "I want to experience every Mario related work of art so that all of them can have a wiki page". And I think that's putting way too much pressure on yourself and your resources. We'll get to it eventually. A user will get ahold of it one way or another. There's a lot of more accessible media to work with in the meantime.

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in it's entirety on the Internet, but can be purchased in other regions, it is lost media"

not lost media 0-8

I agree!

I disagree!

1. Rykitu (talk) Unlike Kōtsu Anzen, media that has several listings on websites, no matter the region, can still be purchased easily.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) No, the cup and ball toy is not "lost media" because it's made in another country.
3. Hewer (talk) "Other regions" implies that we're looking at this from a specific region's perspective, and therefore a lack of neutrality.
4. Maw-Ray Master (talk) If Zur Fernseh-Serie Super Mario Bros. - Spiele und Geschichten can say anything about that.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Dare I say irrelevant considering the interconnected nature of the internet and the ability to import products.
6. Nelsonic (talk) Per all. Certain games that are only available in other regions are still running on their original servers or via their original method of play (i.e. LEGO Super Mario Goal and Mario Bowl), and were not intended to be released outside of their current region(s).
7. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
8. Salmancer (talk) Ditto myself above.

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in it's entirety on the Internet, but is purchasable on several listings in websites, it is lost media"

not lost media 0-8

I agree!

I disagree!

1. Rykitu (talk) Currently selling products, or products with numerous eBay listings, probably aren't lost media.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) It's not lost if we can buy the cup and ball toy.
3. Hewer (talk) Per all.
4. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per all.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above.
6. Nelsonic (talk) Per all.
7. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
8. Salmancer (talk) Per all.

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in it's entirety on the Internet, but can be if a library has a copy, it is lost media"

not lost media 1-7

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) I want to clarify that this only applies to media that can't be purchased, and only can be experienced in a library. Yeah, I'm not getting a degree in education.

#Hewer (talk) This one is borderline and I definitely see both sides of this argument, but I do think it is stretching the "available to the public" part of the definition a bit. Something that is available to only a very small number of people can still be lost media.

I disagree!

1. Camwoodstock (talk) It's not lost if we can rent the cup and ball toy.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above, as a general rule. It's still publicly accessible in this scenario. Now, I would be willing to make an exception for Super Mario no Kōtsū Anzen which I assume the proposal is addressing here, but I don't think we should write off libraries wholesale if they're otherwise relevant.
3. Nelsonic (talk) Per all. A version would still be available publicly in some format, and would still be able to be experienced by the public. Nintendo has released certain games that, to an extent, fall under this category as well (such as that one New Super Mario Bros. Wii Coin Battle tournament disc).
4. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Libraries are places that store books and other forms of literature and media. Internet Archive in itself is a digitial library, so being only available at a library doesn't mean that the media is lost.
5. Hewer (talk) Changing vote per Waluigi Time, as there's only one known piece of Mario media this applies to and it's a somewhat special case.
6. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
7. Salmancer (talk) We're researchers. I think to discount libraries would make us look less like researchers.

"For arcade games, if the game still exists, can be played in an arcade, and is not on the Internet, it is lost media"

not lost media 1-5

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) Būbū Mario and Super Mario Attack are not easy to find. My Banpresto knowledge has told me even the people in Japan have hard times finding these. Also per Super Mario Attack having a Lost Media Wiki article.

I disagree!

1. Camwoodstock (talk) For the most part. If I have to go to my friend's house to play the cup and ball toy, it is not lost. Now, if it was somehow proven that few to no cabinets/units still exist in the wild, such as what happened to Crazy Junior, that would be another story... incidentally, we still think it's kind of baffling how the "inadequate" parameter is used there seeing as that's kind of out of our control, but shhh that's for another day
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above. If the arcade is open to the public, it's not lost.
3. Nelsonic (talk) Per all. Certain Nintendo arcade games were only ever intended to be experienced at the location.
4. Maw-Ray Master (talk) I've seen Mario Party Kurukuru Carnival at an arcade during my trip to Japan, an arcade machine that doesn't have a ROM available, so a game only being available at an arcade doesn't make it lost media.
5. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all. Crazy Junior is a special case, though. It may be a whole lot of hearsay, but I've heard that all cabinets for the game might have been destroyed, which, yeah, THEN it is lost media if we literally cannot play it.

"If the piece of media can't be experienced in its entirety on the Internet, but is owned by someone else who is not distributing it or prevents its distribution, it is lost media"

lost media 5-0

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) The only piece of Mario media I believe is being "hoarded" is Super Mario Attack, which is being hoarded by kikai, an individual who I don’t have the nicest things to say about.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) The story goes that Mario Kart XXL was owned, but hoarded, by one collector, before another copy resurfaced and it was "found". It was a big deal when the Backyardigans pilot was publicly released after years of it actively being gatekept by Fandom users. If someone is hogging all the cup and ball toys, that doesn't make them "found".
3. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per all. Just because one person is hoarding a piece of media doesn't mean that other people can experience it.
4. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
5. Salmancer (talk) Per all.

I disagree!

"For physical games, if the piece of media doesn't have an accurate simulation on the Internet, it is lost media"

not lost media 1-7

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) I'm leaning towards the yes side here due to a lot of these no longer being up for sale (maybe except for the Super Nintendo World water game). And the chances of playing these for cheap is going to be difficult.

I disagree!

1. Camwoodstock (talk) We can't make this impromptu metaphor about a cup and ball toy work with this one we're sorry. Uh, no, being unavailable in a program like Tabletop Simulator doesn't make for "lost media"--if one could imitate the game with a proper rulebook and substituting pieces or parts, it's not "lost".
2. Hewer (talk) If a lot of them aren't available to get, then that is the reason for them being lost media, not because they can't be simulated online.
3. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per all. Not having an accurate simulation on the Internet doesn't mean the game itself can't still be purchased.
4. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above. If there's physical copies out there, it's not lost just because it can't be experienced in a specific way that was never intended by the manufacturers.
5. Nelsonic (talk) Per all. Many of these are able to be purchased from auction sites.
6. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
7. Salmancer (talk) Per Waluigi Time.

"For physical games, if the game does not have the rules available on the Internet, it is lost media"

not lost media 2-5

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) This is as lost as one of these things can get!
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Losing the rule sheet, however, is a bridge too far, we think.

I disagree!

1. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Most physical games have the rules included with the game, so not having the rules available on the Internet doesn't mean one can buy the physical game to acquire the rules.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) Per me above, this is an informational issue rather than lost media specifically. Unless the physical game in its entirety is known to be lost, then the rules have to be out there somewhere.
3. Nelsonic (talk) Per all, especially Maw-Ray Master. The Gameboy Bubble Bath games, for instance, have the rules printed directly on the back of the soap bottle.
4. Kaptain Skurvy (talk) Per all.
5. Salmancer (talk) Per Waluigi Time.

"For board games, if the game has not been simulated in Tabletop Simulator or any other simulator on the Internet, it is lost media."

canceled by proposer

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) With the exception of the board games being sold on store shelves now, stuff like Das Super Mario Spiel might be difficult to obtain and play.

I disagree!

1. Camwoodstock (talk) We've been over this exact scenario.
2. Hewer (talk) Same as the first vote.
3. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per my physical game simulation vote.

"For board games, if the game does not have the rules available on the Internet, it is lost media."

canceled by proposer

I agree!

1. Rykitu (talk) Same reason as physical games with no available rules, if you have a copy of a rare game with no copy of the rules book and nothing online, how are you supposed to play?
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Ditto, we've been over how losing the rules should count.

I disagree!

1. Maw-Ray Master (talk) Per my physcial game rules vote.

Lost Comments

"all Nintendo Switch 2 games would be lost because it is impossible to emulate as of now due to Nintendo bricking your console if you try to" is blatantly not true, some people need to stop using YouTube as a means of information - YoYo (Talk) 03:09, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock Yeah, a little bit of me didn't think it was a good idea to do that. I thought they would be a little bit different because how different the simulation scene is for those, but now I think they are similar enough. Should I delete the last two options and include options and edit the second to last two options to include board games? Rykitu

That'd work for us. Sure, simulating physical games is different, but the distinction between board games and other such things is a bit more narrow. If anything, it's more different to simulate a pinball table... And even then, Visual Pinball X exists, and is utterly cracked. ;P ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 11:10, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

Technically, the episodes "The Ventriloquist Caper" and "The Great Seal Steal" of Saturday Supercade are partially lost due to the original English audio having not been found, despite their Galician dub being found. I feel that there should be an option determining whether a media is lost if a version in one language is lost, but other language versions are found. Maw-Ray Master (talk) 09:32, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

I think that what fit into the category of "lost dubs", which is a real lost media category. If an episode is found in only one language, than the content of the episode is found, the dubbed audio isn't. Rykitu

The lost media template itself says that it's for works that are "partially or entirely inaccessible". The former applies to this case, since part of the media (the English audio) is inaccessible. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 10:01, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

Does the library option apply to anything besides Super Mario no Kōtsū Anzen? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:38, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

The library option is for media that rarely has online listings that's best chance to obtain a copy is via a library. Rykitu

What I'm asking is, are there any known examples of such media besides Super Mario no Kōtsū Anzen? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 12:45, August 12, 2025 (EDT)

As for Mario media, the only other media I think could fit into that category is Super Mario no Shōbōtai. Which from my knowledge, has similar conditions as Kōtsū Anzen in terms of obtaining a copy of the tape. However, unlike Kōtsū Anzen, this is actually found. There are other examples of lost media that can only be obtained via libraries, but that is it for Mario media. Rykitu

There's another condition I'd like to add: "If the piece of media can't be experienced in its entirety on the Internet, but is owned by someone else who is not distributing it or prevents its distribution, it is lost media." Maw-Ray Master (talk) 16:42, August 13, 2025 (EDT)

Okay, I'll add it! Rykitu