Talk:Kamek (Red)

Merge this plus Kamek (White) and Kamek (Green) to Kamek

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

Do not merge 3-12

The Crystal King Clone(s) aren't split and neither are Shadoo's shadow clones. The only reason I can surmise that this is split is the colors and the wiki generally doesn't like to split subjects based off color. These clones are just Kamek with a different can of paint and shouldn't be viewed as separate. Additionally, these Kameks only show up in the one fight alongside Kamek. There are plenty of cases of characters that appear alongside each other that could be considered separate that are merged regardless because they never appear on their own and this would be one of those cases.

Proposer: Pizza Master (talk)
Deadline: May 1, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Pizza Master (talk) per
2. Salmancer (talk) Forget the color argument, I know for certain Nintendo101 is looking to change that philosophy and I mildly agree with them. This is a single Kamek battle, and having people go between four pages to see all of their stats and attacks only lengthens a wiki visit for the pendantry of these four being different individuals. If these are split, I see no reason to not make Knucklotec's Fist an article as a being that can operate independently of its user in a boss fight. (Yes, only because Mario is possessing it, but I feel the point stands.) EDIT: I'd also like to bring up that the Elite Trio X article is not accompanied by a Private Goomp X, Corporal Paraplonk X, and Sergeant Guy X, etc. One scenario, one article.
3. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - At the start of the fight, they are blue, then Kamek zaps them and they change color. (I personally still hold to the color argument as valid.)

Oppose

1. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) They are seperate targetable enemies each with their own abilities.
2. Sorbetti (talk) The main idea of Shadoo is to create clones, thats why they are on his page and not separately. Knucklotec's fists are parts of him, they have no more purpose for separating than King Kalamari's tentacles, and they haven't even been shown to be alive. Per Nightwicked Bowser
3. Tails777 (talk) Per Nightwicked Bowser. Edit: they also have different stats, which makes it consistent a lot of other RPG enemies.
4. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Nightwicked Bowser. Separate enemies, unique abilities, and most importantly to us, these (and the other colored Kameks) are exclusive to the third and final Kamek fight in Dream Team. also to be honest we've been increasingly of the opinion that color variants of enemies should be split, and we know we're not alone in this
5. Sparks (talk) Per all.
6. Pseudo (talk) Per all, especially Sorbetti. This is more of a Wind Crystal than most boss minions, having a lot of unique identity of its own.
7. EvieMaybe (talk) per Pseudo.
8. Nintendo101 (talk) Per all. per Blinker below.
9. Blinker (talk) I think it would be better to merge these to their Magikoopa counterparts. While you can argue that Kamek is a unique recurring character distinct from generic Magikoopas, that doesn't really apply to these.
10. Shadow2 (talk) Per all.
11. Yoshi18 (talk) Per all. If they have unique abilities and are basically different persons (similar to Kamek), they should remain distinguished.
12. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

Comments

So are Shadoo's Shadow Clones. They don't receive their own articles for being targetable and having their own abilities separate from Shadoo and they shouldn't.-- Pizza Master 16:17, April 17, 2025 (EDT)

1) Regardless, Shadoo creates named clones that could've been given articles like what happened here with Kamek's clones. 2) Can we really say that Kamek's copies are alive? It seems more likely than not to be nothing more than illusionary magic like the "Bowser mech suit" from Luigi's Mansion that was revealed to be nothing more than an illusion created by King Boo. We don't give an article to that object despite its relevance and impact to the final battle. So why should these clones that likely aren't real get to have their own articles? -- Pizza Master (talk)

The main issue here is there's also an argument to be made with merging them with the colored Magikoopa pages, especially since their Minion Quest versions reuse the sprites for these guys (and considering the JP names being identical minus some formatting, likely were intended to be these). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:53, April 17, 2025 (EDT)

This I can potentially agree with, from the perspective that the Magikoopa/Kamek distinction is often pretty arbitrary. -- Pseudo (talk, contributions) 23:11, April 17, 2025 (EDT)

Merge this plus Kamek (White) and Kamek (Green) with the colored Magikoopas

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

failed to reach consensus 11-9
I seen the propolsal above, and yes. I do agree that Merging the clones with regular Kamek would not be a good idea, I don't think the way that we handle Kamek clones right now is exacly great either. I am gonna give a hint for why I think this way:

• 

  Kamek (Red)

• 

  Red Magikoopa

While them look identical is part of a problem, it is not the main reason for why they should be merged, the main reason is that these Kamek clones act the same way as the colored Magikoopas. Let's see some examples:

• Red Magikoopa job in Paper Mario games was too increase attack power of himself and the other members of the team, while Kamek (Red) job is too increase attack power of himself and the other members of the team... so gameplay wise colored clones act either the same or very similarly to their "generic" counterparts. Also the notes section from Kamek green is proving my point even more.
• in the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey the three colored Magikoopas appear in these side-modes, in which they look and act same as the Kamek clones from Dream Team, AlphaDream decided to re-use the sprites from one of their previous games, it's almost like they are used interchangeably because they are not meant to be different.
• While yes, their names are actually different, that's only partly true in original Japanese version, since let's all remember that in japan, all Magikoopas are named "Kameks" so in japan, Kamek clones are called Kamek (Color) while generic Magikoopas are called (Color) Kamek, and I don't think that slight wording change is good enough to keep them split, we don't have Impostor Bowser splited from Fake Bowser's for a reason. But at least Impostor Bowser has slighty unique design.

The one counter argument people can have is that Kamek is also not visually different from generic Magikoopas too, but the difference is that this "Magikoopa the character" has appeared in more than one game.This feels more like 'Birdo the spiecies' situation, where there it feels more like one-time interpretasion rather than an actual seperate entities.

Proposer: Kirby the Formling (talk)
Deadline: May 26, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 2, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 9, 2025, 23:59 GMT Extended to June 16, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Use magic to merge them! (Support)

1. Kirby the Formling (talk) per everything
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per proposal. This split is an awkward result of trying to be symmetrical with the Magikamek split, except since these are copies they don't have the excuse of being individuals.
3. Xiahou Ba, The Nasty Warrior (talk) Per proposal.
4. Blinker (talk) In addition to what has already been said, I just want to point out. Dream Team, the same game that has Kamek produce these three clones of himself, also has a group of Magikoopas appear in the fight against giant Bowser. One of them appears to command the others. Considering Kamek in this game is treated as an individual character that can create clones of himself, the silent Magikoopas, currently covered on Magikoopa, are likely also clones. This means it's very likely that clones of Kamek in this very game are already treated as regular Magikoopas.
5. Pseudo (talk) Per all.
6. Exiled.Serenity (talk) We would instinctively prefer if these were merged onto the main Kamek's page, since they are just an indicental part of his boss fight, but if they need to go on their own pages they should not be treated as individual characters. They don't have any of the qualifications, they're just p-zombie magikoopas that look like him.
7. Hewer (talk) Don't really see any reason these should be split. "But they're Kamek and not Magikoopas" feels to me like excessive splitting of hairs when those two things are barely different anyway (it's true their articles are split, but they've at least appeared alongside each other now and then, which you can't say of these colour variations).
8. Pizza Master (talk) Honestly don't see why the different colors of Magikoopas are split but since they are, this makes sense to me. Also for those who think this should be merged to Kamek, I made a proposal for that recently and it failed, so this is the next best thing in my eyes.
9. Nintendo101 (talk) Per proposal. It is worth noting the distinction between Magikoopa and Kamek is usually blurred. Brothership may be the only game that has some sort of meaningful distinction. In Western localizations "Kamek" is typically just what Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe refer to the subject when there is only one present in the game, not because Nintendo Co., Ltd. wanted to align it with the recurring boss from the Yoshi series. This is not even always a hard rule: the one from the New Super Mario Bros., which our Wiki recognize as "Kamek," is localized by NoA and NoE as "Magikoopa." In nearly all scenarios, Kamek and Magikoopa are essentially synonymous terms, and it feels unintuitive and misrepresentative to have these subjects remain split.
10. Daita (talk) Like, why would the Bowser's Minions Magikoopas get their separate articles? MERGE IT!
11. SmokedChili (talk) Per all.

No magic is allowed here. (Oppose)

1. Camwoodstock (talk) We've played Minion Quest: The Search for Bowser. you can tell because we keep warning people not to do it. The colored Magikoopas, while they do recycle the assets for Kamek's colored forms from Dream Team, are not Kamek. They're just ordinary Magikoopas. There can be a plural quantity of them, unlike Kamek, who is presumably singular. Since these clones are of Kamek specifically, melding information of them to the pages for stock Magikoopas would be a misnomer, and blur the lines between Kamek and ordinary magikoopas even more than Nintendo already likes to. Even if we ignore the Minion Quest in the room, the Japanese name thing doesn't really check out, because in Japan, all Magikoopas are called Kamek. Over there, it's kind of like Birdo versus her own species; there's Kameks, and then the Kamek. As for "they both bolster attack power", being mechanically similar does not a split make, cough cough, Goomba and Goombo. Even if we hadn't played Minion Quest, we cannot say we'd understand these merges.
2. Tails777 (talk) Per Camwoodstock. These copies are tied to Kamek as a character, not to the Magikoopa species as a whole.
3. Sorbetti (talk) This is ironic since it is the same situation as Kamek, it looks like a Magikoopa and as you saw its assets were reused for a similar enemy, however are they really the same? I don't know what the purpose of merging Kamek clones with Magikoopa variants, besides the Kamek clones are bosses and have different attack patterns and names from the coloured magikoopas from Minion quest.
4. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per all
5. Arend (talk) I think it makes more sense to merge these Kamek forms to Kamek instead of the Magikoopas of their respective color.
6. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Per all.
7. Sparks (talk) Per all.
8. Salmancer (talk) If these were Yoshi clones for a boss fight, I doubt we would be having this discussion. (That might be because of how there's only one Yoshi (species), but I feel the point stands.) Besides, the mechanical similarities are overblown. Kamek (Green) boosts all stats that can be buffed, each buff as a separate attack. Kamek (Red) has an attack where it gets a giant broom to swing for Mario. Those are far cries from only boosting defense and only boosting attack. You'd have to squint to fit Kamek (Red) into Red Magikoopa.
9. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all.

A magical discussion! (Comments)

@Camwoodstock - Except that "Kamek" and "Magikoopa" actually are intended to be interchangeable in the same way Toads' and Yoshis' character/species situation is, they just had the misfortune of an inconsistent localization that was never corrected for long. Anyways, given these are copies with no individual personality or plot significance anyway, why should they be treated as specific characters? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:34, May 12, 2025 (EDT).

Why do we treat Kamek and Magikoopa as different? Because the games themselves do so; sure, both of them are "Kamek" in Japan, but there's still a distinction made between "Kamek" the ordinary enemy, and the "Kamek" that is like, the individual representing the species as a whole that serves as one of Bowser's top command. We inherently disagree with the notion that "Kamek and Magikoopa are actually the same thing and there's never been a distinction ever outside of localization", because it's not like in the Japanese version of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, the game is like "A Kamek [implicitly, a non-descript one] is doing such-and-such", no, there's just the Kamek, you get one.
In turn, these are clones of the Kamek, you get one, there's no generic Magikoopas in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team. The original Dream Team boss fight was about the Kamek, the only one in the game, the one that's presumably the same one from Yoshi's Island that serves as one of Bowser's main troops. The association with more generic Magikoopas as a species is strictly an invention of Minion Quest reusing whatever assets they could to try and get a story that might sound vaguely coherent if you squint. The Kamek is not in Minion Quest. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 14:53, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

Funny how pre-SMW2 media tended to give individual Magikoopa that exact same role (Super Mario Adventures, Yoshi's Safari, Super Mario Kodansha manga, Super Mario-Kun, Super Mario World: Mario to Yoshi no Bōken Land, the list goes on). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:07, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

The Birdo is also given a fairly consistent characterization too, and the original Super Mario Bros. 2 even gave those traits to Birdo as a species by insinuating that all of them must be transgender, which is... Confusing with hindsight, to say the least. (In fairness, we don't think the developers were thinking quite that hard about the logistics of "there being just one Birdo" just yet, given it was her first appearance, and in that, Birdos were just like, a recurring miniboss, rather than being seen as her own bespoke character just yet. Our point here is moreso about how old manuals were kind of weird before these traits distinguishing between A birdo/magikoopa and The Birdo/Kamek started to show up, admittedly, so don't read too hard into it, please? We're here to discuss Kamek, not Birdo. ;P) ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 15:10, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock so what your telling me is that:

• 

  Goomba

• 

  Goombo

is comparable to this?

• 

  White Kamek the clone

• 

  White Kamek the generic spiecies

Goomba and Goombo are seperate because they actually look and are named differently (and also Goombos are meant to be Sarasaland version of Goombas). Also using Birdo as an counter argument is not helping you considering how we currently still have those (character and spiecies) merged. Kirby the Formling (talk) 14:44, May 12, 2025 (EDT).

Yes, because one was born out of console limitation, and one is born out of asset re-use; both have ever-so-slightly differing names (Goomba vs. Goombo, Kamek vs. Magikoopa) and are, as far as the game's concerned, two different things from one another. We'll admit Birdo probably wasn't the best example, but if you want a better example, you don't need to look far. If we don't merge Yoshi to his own species, when he literally has the same name worldwide and multiple games don't bother to distinguish between Yoshi and a generic member of his own species, we don't see why we should merge Kamek and Magikoopa, but only for these weird clones he uses as part of his boss fight from Dream Team, and only because of Minion Quest recycling assets, when it does that constantly because it's a low-budget production, not for some bold statement about the differences between Kamek and a Magikoopa. Why else is Starlow in there when she has no relevance to Superstar Saga, or have both ordinary Boomerang Bros alongside Beanerang Bros? Surely, we're not about to merge Beanerang Bros to Boomerang Bros because of Minion Quest suggesting the only difference between the two is visuals and name, right? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 14:53, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

I am not talking aboud merging Kamek with Magikoopa, I am talking aboud splitting the one time colored clones, since they have appeard only one time, have no personality, no story importants, no visual distinction, just nothing other than slight name change (That isn't even that big in Japan). Also Beanerang Bro is a HORRIBLE example. Since we actually used to have them merged with Boomerang because they used to be named the same as Boomerang Bro even in Japan, it was in the remake that we gave Beanerang bro it's own article ( propably since regular Boomerangs appear alongside them ). Also I am going to show this one last time since I am running out of colors:

• 

  generic Boomerang Bro

• 

  Beanerang bro who has unique design and name in the remake appearing alongside generic BB

has the same good reasons to be seperated like the one on the bottom?

• 

  Green Kamek CLONE that appears once

• 

  Green Kamek the spiecies that appears in every other game

Kirby the Formling (talk) 15:17, May 12, 2025 (EDT).

Yes, because if we're going to use Minion Quest as our smoking gun, both of these pairs are considered distinct from one another. Boomerang Bro is the ally you use, Beanerang Bro is the enemy you're up against. Green Magikoopas are your ally, but the Kamek isn't even in the game. Heck, the Kamek appears in Bowser Jr.'s Journey alongside the colored Magikoopas; and while we can't vouch for much of the story of Bowser Jr.'s Journey (this may come as a surprise that we aren't itching to play it), it's to our understanding that the Kamek plays largely the same role he does in titles post-Yoshi's Island, while the colored Magikoopas are as generic as ever compared to the Kamek. The generic Magikoopas don't even use the broom that the Kamek (or his clones) do in the Dream Team fight, but those broom sprites are (allegedly, we have some skepticism towards sprite rips for these titles given first-hand experience with how weird they are) unused in the game data, because asset re-use.
...In fact, this does beg the question; if we merge this, how exactly do we plan to reconcile the Kamek appearing in Bowser Jr.'s Journey, alongside these three generic guys? ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 15:31, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

MLSS Boomerang Bro actually was split on here before the remake, though without the remake the logic it was split on probably wouldn't hold up today. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:47, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Camwoodstock: Why are you acting like this merge's only argument is Minion Quest's asset reuse? Do you really believe Red Magikoopas are less similar between Dream Team and Minion Quest than they are between Dream Team and Mario Superstar Baseball? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 16:18, May 13, 2025 (EDT)

Here to defend Camwood, this proposal seems to be guided only by design, forgetting features, mechanics, functionality, names and that one is a generic minion, while the other is a clone boss of the character Kamek. Sorbetti (talk) 20:31, May 13, 2025 (EDT)

@Sorbetti Here to defend myself, it is not just the designs that are the same, it's their abbilities too, like White Magikoopa unique abbility seperate from generic Magikoopas is that they can heal other's, while Kamek (White) unique abbility seperate from other Kamek clones is that they can heal other's... Do you see the issue now? Also them being bosses is not good enough, since this is the same franchise that turned Wigglers as bosses, dispite how in other Mario games they are just generic enemies. Keeping Kamek clones split would be like splitting Baby Yoshi (character) from Baby Yoshi (spiecies). It is pointless and just cover how one time in Yoshi's Island DS we had Baby version of Yoshi the character specifically'. Kirby the Formling (talk) 03:53, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

As a hypothetical; say, for whatever reason, someone decided to merge all the Evil doppelgangers to their corresponding character pages or Smash fighter sections. Seems fair enough, right? Now, imagine that for whatever reason, the proposal suggests to merge False Bowser's information to Koopa (Bowser's species), rather than Bowser, under the pretense that they're the same species. While yes, this is true, this is also... Not very helpful information, and a rather counter-intuitive way to organize things. It's a clone of Bowser, so it would make far more sense--and be far more helpful--to associate this information with Bowser, rather than the page for his species.
In turn, this page a clone of Kamek specifically, rather than a generic member of his own species. We've already ruled out merging this information to the page for the Kamek as part of the growing sentiment that color splits should be more common, so that's obviously out, but this seeks to meld information pertaining to this clone of the Kamek, to an article for a generic member of his species. Again, this is true... But it's not a helpful way to convey this information; someone looking for information on a clone of the Kamek would likely want to look at a page named after him, not a generic Magikoopa.
Salmancer's comparison of "attributing a clone of Yoshi as an individual character to Yoshi (species), rather than to Yoshi himself" is an apt comparison for what we're trying to say here. Kamek is a Magikoopa, but not all Magikoopas are Kamek. Ergo, a clone of Kamek in red is a Red Magikoopa, but not all Red Magikoopas are clones of Kamek. Melding the two of those is already questionable, but for as long as Nintendo feels like making a distinction between the Kamek and the rest of his species, and for as long as Kamek and Magikoopa remain split pages, there's really no reason to merge these two in our opinion. we really hope this makes sense and doesn't just sound like utter jargon we're a tad out of it today ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:13, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

This proposal would be more like merging a hypothetically separated SSBB "False Bowser" page to the Evil doppelganger page. At worst, to Impostor Bowser, but that's stretching it a bit. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:21, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

Not really...? That example would be like a proposal to meld these 3 Kamek clones to a united "Kamek clone" page. Which, sure, would also probably not go very well seeing how people reacted to merging these all to Kamek, but still. At any rate, the point is moreso about "moving a clone for a specific character to a page for just their species". There's a reason we mentioned Salmancer's comparison specifically. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:24, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

Given that, like Wiggler, Magikoopa is only a character when he needs to be (for example, the Kodansha manga's SMW-arc Magikoopa character and YI-arc Magikoopa character were pretty clearly the same guy), sometimes in addition to non-blue ones appearing as a species, while Bowser has only really ever been a character, that's not really possible to make a real 1:1 comparison. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:29, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

@Arend Funny you should say that, given the proposal from a few weeks ago above on that very idea failed by a huge margin, mostly in favor of this idea instead. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:20, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

Not sure on voting yet, but how does this situation compare to Toad in 3D World and Maker 2? The wiki considers both of those two be Toad the character despite their cap color, rather than Toad (species) because the games simply refer to them as "Toad". And in this case, "Kamek" is even a specific name for the character.--PopitTart (talk) 16:41, May 12, 2025 (EDT)

@Salmancer - Green Magikoopa is also completely different in terms of what it does between PM64 and TTYD, and even between Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey, the stat they buff has changed. These change very often. The white ones being healers is the only thing that's really ever stayed consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:11, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

While that is true, the mechanical comparison is one of the three main arguments in the text of the proposal. Salmancer (talk) 21:00, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

Red one is always the most "aggro" of them, as vague as that is. Be it POW buffs or direct attacks. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:28, May 14, 2025 (EDT)

It still doesn't make sense to me, a Kamek clone and a Magikoopa are not the same thing. Sorbetti (talk) 10:07, May 15, 2025 (EDT)

Why not? Kamek is a Magikoopa, a Kamek clone is just one of multiple copies of a Magikoopa without the informed individuality of Kamek - by virtue of there now being multiple. The supposed "differences" between Magikoopa/Kamek the species and Magikoopa/Kamek the character are massively overstated by the fandom. This is like how when multiple copies of Yoshi appear in New Super Mario Bros. U, we suddenly consider that Yoshi the species rather than Yoshi the character despite acting exactly the same as the multicolored Yoshis in New Super Mario Bros. Wii (of which we consider the sole green one there Yoshi the character). This is an example on how pointlessly confusing these character/species splits often get. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:52, May 15, 2025 (EDT)