Talk:Ice Piranha Plant: Difference between revisions

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:I'm pretty sure Fire P-Pakkun wasn't officially distinguished until ESMB (which is...second party at best; none of the previous guides listed it, nor did the enemy cast roll), and Tane Pakkun is irrelevant as no other Piranhas debut in said game; note the point is that no other species sharing a game debut for any species listed is skipped, so when, for instance, one from Super Mario Bros. 3 is listed, ''all'' from SMB3 are listed. Same reason Double Dash's Mecha-Piranhas and the Pit Plant aren't mentioned. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:36, November 20, 2021 (EST)
:I'm pretty sure Fire P-Pakkun wasn't officially distinguished until ESMB (which is...second party at best; none of the previous guides listed it, nor did the enemy cast roll), and Tane Pakkun is irrelevant as no other Piranhas debut in said game; note the point is that no other species sharing a game debut for any species listed is skipped, so when, for instance, one from Super Mario Bros. 3 is listed, ''all'' from SMB3 are listed. Same reason Double Dash's Mecha-Piranhas and the Pit Plant aren't mentioned. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:36, November 20, 2021 (EST)
::Indeed. ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' incidentally gives a different, newer name for Small Piranha (and the ''Super Mario World'' Fire Snake), strongly indicating that ''Ultimate'' was referencing sources older than that. All in all, I would not underestimate the chances of this matter ending up as Parabuzzy 2.0, which would not take much effort to happen. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:48, November 21, 2021 (EST)
::Indeed. ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' incidentally gives a different, newer name for Small Piranha (and the ''Super Mario World'' Fire Snake), strongly indicating that ''Ultimate'' was referencing sources older than that. All in all, I would not underestimate the chances of this matter ending up as Parabuzzy 2.0, which would not take much effort to happen. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:48, November 21, 2021 (EST)
When this is settled, I guess the problem will be solved. I understand everyone’s points, but there is not enough evidence to merge them. Please don’t give dogmatic opinions without proof. (Credit to {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} for the idea) {{User:OhoJeeOnFire/sig}}

Revision as of 16:21, November 21, 2021

Okay, seriously, in which levels the Venus Ice Traps appear? Seems to me they are available in Rock-Candy Mines.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2012 (EST)

in the Fuzzy's Clifftop level, indeed of Rock-Candy Mines.--Marioyoshi (talk) 17:13, 14 December 2012 (EST)

Thanks man.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 18:31, 14 December 2012 (EST)

Cool Trivia

These Plants appeared on Fantendo, and were made due to fan demand, i know this for a fact can i put it one the article.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Fantendo isn't official, so that fact has no place in the article. World10 (talk) 11:50, 20 December 2012 (EST)

No, it was made there, then nintedo was DEMANDED (i know this for a FACT) to make it due to i being thought as i brilliant idea. i see your angle, but it is official. it only originated there.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

FANTENDO MATTER

ok, although the fact sound fake due to the words FANTENDO, it is real so i am adding it again, please tell me why you deleted it if you do.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

I haven't deleted it, but please, stop writing "(don't delete this please)" on the article ! Don't write commentary on any article.
Banon (talk · edits) 13:22, 20 December 2012 (EST)

OK, I AM SO SORRY AND I WASN'T THINKING! I HAD A FIGHT FOR MY GOOMBRAT TRIVIA AND I WENT A BIT CRAZY (sorry for Cap lock)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Ok, i put more which makes it should better. it is real and do not delete. i cannot put a source as they are hand written letters.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

LOOK HERE IT IS, I'M A TRUE-SPEAKER=

SORRY for taking over this page, but this is real stop deleting the Origin part ok, maybe put in trivia, but it is real and important.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

This Wiki does not cover Fantendo. Don't add anything about Fantendo.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:35, 20 December 2012 (EST)

No you don't get it, i an leave that out, but they were added due to fan demand, they found it out on Fantendo. I can not mention it and just say "They were added because fans wanted an ice breathing venus fire trap and wrote letters to Nintendo about it".

it is an important fact so it should be here.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

No.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:39, 20 December 2012 (EST)

but it is very very important, can't you just except it like nintendo did.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

This is the Super Mario Wiki. The Super Mario Wiki only covers official matters on the topic of the Mario series. Content from Fantendo or otherwise fan-created content do not belong here. If you can find official information about the matter, provide it and add it to the article, it would only be official and canotial information. But you cannot include fan-created material in articles, for they are neither canon nor official. PidgeyIcon.pngRandomYoshi(TalkPMsC) 13:44, 20 December 2012 (EST)

It's not allowed on this Wiki.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:45, 20 December 2012 (EST)

i know as i was one of those fans and Nintendo replied saying they will and other fans have asked this.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Should i make a website saying this then add a link to it. theres your proof.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

But it's not allowed. It's not official. Don't add it.--Revenge Of Kurbio 13:51, 20 December 2012 (EST)

What exactly do you mean? Do you mean that you are part of Nintendo staff? Because if you are, I have a serious difficulty in believing that piece of information.

Again, fan-created material is not allowed on this wiki, nor is it allowed as a source or a reference, for it is not official. And no matter how much you would like that to change, it just will not change, because if it did, our articles would look atrocious.

Who are you, anyway? Some person from Fantendo who just wants to insert false information into articles? If so, I think that is a bad idea and you should probably stop with it before you get into any serious trouble. PidgeyIcon.pngRandomYoshi(TalkPMsC) 13:54, 20 December 2012 (EST)

I think what the anon's saying is that the enemy was put in NSMBU because of some Fantendo page (which would be worthy information in the non-existent chance that it's true), though somehow I don't think the radical idea of swapping the projectile of an already-existing enemy is something that would've never crossed the game's creative team until an obscure fansite told them it would be teh awsum . --Glowsquid (talk) 13:58, 20 December 2012 (EST)

the apology

Sorry about not replying,(i was having dinner) i am not part of Fantendo and i do not wan't to harm to wiki in any way. I though this was good information. don't say it is a "non-existent" chance as it wrote it to nintendo. I don't want to add bad information. I thought i would be nice for everyone to know and i can't believe that it was such a big deal. I'm sorry for any problems and i would like to say that I wanted this enemy and gave them the idea. I can see how they could have come up with on their own, but i asked them.

If anon is an insult then i demand an apology, if it mean "person with no account", then may i be told. sorry for any trouble and I won't add it again, unless i am given permission by you Guys.

To be honest, I think it is quit cool how I was noticed by so many people.

oh and Random Yoshi, I'm not out to destroy the wiki's valuable content, i don't have an account on MarioWiki and have nothing to do with Fantendo but looking at some of the games and promoting their Venus ice Trap idea to Nintendo.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Alittle bit of SECOND THOUGHTS

actually i think this is major information and if i am not stopped by Friday (tomorrow) morning, I will re-add it! I am ok with i being deleted again AS LONG AS it is explained why.


I'm not telling lies and I really think it should be said. Please don't ban me as I just think it is major stuff.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.148.118.231 (talk).

Oh, come on! Read the rules!--Revenge Of Kurbio 16:00, 20 December 2012 (EST)


Ok, i have come to the conclusion Mario Wiki does not what to know the origin of a creature if it includes fans, however it would be interesting: like how Miyamoto came up with the Chain Chomp.

Fantendo

I know Fantendo is unofficial, but it appears that there has been a Venus Ice Trap article on this wiki since 30/04/2010. The anon above me is probably telling the truth, and maybe we should say somewhere in the article they come from Fantendo people's letters. To whoever that wants to tell me we can't because it's unofficial, I suggest you to look at this.
Banon (talk · edits) 09:31, 22 May 2013 (EDT)

Actually, it's probably coincidental. I don't know if we can check the accuracy of what the anon said.
Banon (talk · edits) 19:08, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
Is there any source that Nintendo actually received the letters and acknowledged them, because they probably get loads of letters about possible enemy ideas. Yoshi876 (talk)
If you look at the History Section Of Fantendo's venus ice trap, you can clearly see that it was created Before New super Mario bros U (the article was created on april 30th, 2010, NSMBU on December 8th, 2012. not even the wii U was created back then) Koopinator

However, Fantendo's Venus ice trap looks NOTHING like NSMBU's Venus ice trap (talk).

Potential to merge with Frost Piranha

Anyone know the Japanese name of this? I'd like to propose a merge of this to Frost Piranha, as well as Poison Piranha Plant to Putrid Piranha, but first I need to know this guy's Japanese name, and whether it's the same. It should be in a guide somewhere. As for Poison, that'll probably have to wait until any Japanese guides for Odyssey come out. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:06, 28 August 2017 (CT)

According to Mister Wu (#7), Ice Piranha Plant has an identical name to Frost Piranha, though I'm not sure which page of Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. it's in. It seems to be the same thing; while Frost Piranhas usually have frost breath instead of ice balls, Fire Piranhas, their elemental opposites, also have a similar fiery breath attack move in the Paper Mario series. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:20, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
I wouldn't support merging them. Beyond vaguely having ice abilities, they have different appearances, different abilities, and different names in English. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:29, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
Then for the sake of consistency, should the Sticker Star Fire Piranha be split from Fire Piranha Plant? The breath-like form of their attacks are pretty similar. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
The Fire Piranha Plants share a name and appearance, as well as some of the abilities of their platform brethren. Just having the same name is not enough for me to be convinced. Hello, I'm Time Turner. 14:54, 29 August 2017 (EDT)
Prima Games is somewhat known for having an odd few names that differ from other sources - which is fine since they're an official licensee and a handful of cases like Scorchit and Klamber are much preferable to NOA's naming, but still, that's precisely how we ended up having another King Bill. If we're splitting based on movesets, then would that mean "Frost Piranha (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)" should be its own article since it lacks its normal icy breath and only physically bites in that appearance? Another thing is that Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U partially supports the notion of Frost/Ice being the same right in the Piranha Plant trophy, since the North American description mentions a Frost variety yet doesn't mention the Ice variation - and oddly enough, both the Japanese version and PAL translation don't mention it at all, so if our English localization wanted to distinguish between the two, they would've done so then very easily. (Also, I want to add again that Gritty Goomba might soon potentially be a dated example in light of the new version of Superstar Saga.) LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:25, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

nope. it acts diiferent and why would it be? why would reappear if it debuted in a RPG? TYC

By that token, Ice Flowers debuted in an RPG, and it became a fairly major item. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:50, 29 August 2017 (EDT)

I support the merge, because I want to see an end to this debate. Similar to Red Magikoopa, Green Magikoopa, Yellow Magikoopas, White Magikoopa, Koopatrols, and other Bowser minions that appeared outside of the Paper Mario world, it would seem natural for the Frost Piranha/Ice Piranha Plant to do the same, since they share the same Japanese name. And given how Virdi, one of the enemies of the VA, mentions Frost Piranha and leaves out Ice Piranha Plant, yet mentions Piranha Pod, it makes sense. And I've seen this discussion mention the Gritty Goomba situation, which is now out of date due to the one in Gwahar Lagoon being Elite Gritty Goomba. So do the merge and put a stop to any doubt bout this Bowser minion.--Hamshamcart (talk) 09:50, 8 February 2019 (EST)

As mentioned here, Viridi mentions nearly all the variations of Piranha Plants in the guidance for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, which includes Frost Piranhas but not Ice Piranhas. This makes it the second or third Smash Bros. game in a row to mention Frost Piranha over Ice Piranha, supporting them being the same. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:59, 8 February 2019 (EST)
Nope, i'd prefer to avoid any potential speculation. --Green Yoshi FanOfYoshi 12:13, 9 February 2019 (EST)
"But have the same Japanese name" isn't enough of an argument to use by itself. Plus there's no solid evidence that they are the same thing. It also does not mention the Fire P-Pakkun, nor does it for the Tane Pakkun. It'll avoid speculation altogether, unlike merging. --Green Yoshi FanOfYoshi 13:12, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
They also are both Piranha Plants that breath ice. I don't see what the problem is. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 13:30, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
How they act would be the problem, but it's a minor issue. Frost Piranha's came first, coming out 12 years before Ice Piranhas did, so the traditional variant could possibly be based on the paper one. Coloration aside, one spits ice balls and the other spews ice breath. But they are still ice-based Piranha Plants, so I see no issue with having them together. Alex95sig1.pngAlex95sig2.png 13:42, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
We have been over this with Chancellor and Toad Minister, Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom. Just because the Japanese name is identical doesn't make for a merged page. --Green Yoshi FanOfYoshi 13:26, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
It wouldn't need a proposal, but, if it does, i'd oppose. --Green Yoshi FanOfYoshi 13:38, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
I don't care what you'd do. These are officially the same thing, hence why it was only listed once in that rather exhaustive list (even discounting the obvious fact that they edited the list from the Japanese wikipedia, they edited enough to show that they knew what they were doing). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:44, May 15, 2019 (EDT)

For anyone who wants to see a solid opinion on why this merge should not happen as of right now, see no further than this proposal. Yes, I know I opposed it then, but my opinions on the matter have completely reversed. The situation here is the same as it was there: both enemies are variations of another enemy, both have ice-based abilities, and both have identical names in certain languages but not in others. And yet here's the problem: Ice Piranha Plants literally look exactly the same as regular Piranha Plants (likely because the developers were trying to be consistent with Fire Piranha Plants), whereas Frost Piranhas have a completely different color scheme. They didn't even have the same color stalk until Super Paper Mario, but still retain their color scheme and don't resemble the New Super Mario Bros. U enemy well enough in my opinion. It's also worth noting that both of the aforementioned games released five years apart and that Ice Piranha Plant has the more directly translated name, so I don't think the developers of New Super Mario Bros. U were intentionally trying to reference the Paper Mario series when they introduced the Ice Piranha Plant.

Also, by this logic, Poison Piranha Plant would be merged with Putrid Piranha, which would make even less sense for roughly the same reasons. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 21:38, December 25, 2019 (EST)

A couple of things there. First, the Ice Snifit situation is likely the result of “transcreation” (as described in that link; something I briefly hinted at but didn't go further since I didn't know a name for that practice at the time). The color scheme difference doesn't really hold water when the design of a Fire Piranha Plant has also been known to change at will, and as you say, it was likely made uniform for the purpose of matching it for the game. Poison Piranha Plant and Putrid Piranha would absolutely not be merged with the same argument because Super Smash Bros. Ultimate lists them separately (unlike Ice Piranha Plant, which still remains exclusive to the New Super Mario Bros. U Prima guide despite Frost Piranha being repeatedly mentioned). The only reason to keep them split at this point is because they have different attacks (with Frost Piranhas having misty frost breath and Ice Piranha Plants spitting solid ice balls), except the same difference also exists with the Paper Mario Lava Piranha and Sticker Star Fire Piranha in battle so that case is clearly a platformer/RPG behavioral difference. LinkTheLefty (talk) 06:01, December 26, 2019 (EST)
Yeah, I just feel that the evidence on both sides is just too shallow to change anything right now. Though Fire Piranha Plants have indeed had their design changed on-and-off for inexplicable reasons, it's difficult to apply that same logic to Ice Piranha Plants and Frost Piranhas due to how very few games they appear in. Furthermore, it's apparent to me that certain localizations, especially the Super Smash Bros. series, can be relatively unreliable when it comes to whether they transcreated names or not, especially since Ultimate also never mentions two other related species of Piranha Plant, as was already brought up.
In the end, I think it would just be better we wait until there's more solid evidence to work with, since everything we have so far appears to be too circumstantial or speculative to pass off as acceptable. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 16:43, December 26, 2019 (EST)
The change for Fire Piranha Plant's color is less "inexplicable" than you think, actually: In most games, Piranhas and Fire Piranhas can be told apart at a glance due to difference in stance. In SM3DL and SM3DW, they have the same stance, so they use color to differentiate them instead. The ice thing is the same type of thing, since it was initially a recolor of Putrid Piranha, then later the "normal" Piranha Plants, "pale" or otherwise, with the NSMBU one having the stance difference. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:13, December 26, 2019 (EST)

There is solid evidence that was overlooked. And I quote from the Japanese Wikipedia article on the Piranha Plant: "Appeared in "Mario Story". Pac-n's flower that lives on a cold stage. It basically exhales ice, but in Paper Mario RPG it has the same effect as a normal bite attack. At first it was an enemy that I could step on. In "Mario Story", the HP was inferior to Poison Pack, but in "Paper Mario RPG", the HP was higher than Poison Pack. The body is blue. In " New Super Mario Bros. U ", a pack of flowers that spits ice. The nature is almost the same as Fire Pack, and the body color is the same as the conventional Pack." So, this should hopefully let the merge happen, and another enemy from the Paper Mario universe would be confirmed to appear outside of said universe.--Pyroman99 (talk) 17:27, July 5, 2020 (EDT)

JP Wikipedia ain't the best source even though the makers of the SSBU list clearly used it and while I firmly believe these should be merged, this Google Translated paragraph isn't evidence at all. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:39, July 5, 2020 (EDT)
Looks like yet another "unnecessarily dashing" interpretation of the situation by a Hamshamcart sock... What Doc said. I also stand by my previous comment on this issue six months ago of there being too little evidence to change anything right now. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 13:32, July 8, 2020 (EDT)

Yes, the JP Wikipedia is not the best source, but アイスパックン (Frost Piranha / Ice Piranha Plant), is still the same any way people slice at it. If the Japanese guides for the first 3 Paper Mario games before the Great Modern Update (Despite its flaws) and New Super Mario Bros. U have the name, which they most likely do, then the issue 7 months ago will finally be put to an end. There's still enough time in the world to do it. --Somberonip99 (talk) 19:18, August 3, 2020 (EDT)

Again, that's not good enough as evidence. We need more definitive proof than that. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 19:21, August 3, 2020 (EDT)

I do not think this is a good idea as both enemies are completely different. User:Matthew aka Mario 8:05, May 15, 2021

Both enemies are also found in completely different genres. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:07, May 15, 2021 (EDT)
Simply saying, they are different things. We only use Japanese names if there is no English name for the article that is not provided by the Super Mario Encyclopedia. In this case, Frost Piranha has an English name from the Paper Mario battle selection thing. Ice Piranha Plants were named from the Prima official game guide, which is NOT the Super Mario Encyclopedia. As you can see, they are obviously different. I’ll put a proposal so this can be settled. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

Japanese Name

Both the Frost Piranha and Ice Piranha Plant have the same Japanese name, Ice Piranha. This also applies to the Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha Plant. Their Japanese name is Poison Piranha.

-CBFan5

Except no, the JP names for Putrid and Poison are not identical, they're merely synonyms with one using an English loanword. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:22, March 29, 2020 (EDT)

Proposal…

Proposal.svg This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Thursday, April 25, 2024, 12:11 GMT

This is the proposal to settle the above discussion.

Proposer: OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
Deadline: December 1, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Merge

  1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) That logic is like saying that Fire Piranha Plant and Venus Fire Trap are different things. Inconsistent localizations happen fairly often, especially when unrelated sources are considered. Ultimate's list only contains the one while not skipping any from any other game to have a debut listed (and has others for both PM (Putrid Piranha) and NSMBU (Piranha Pod)), so all official evidence points to them being the same, even if the NSMBU enemy wasn't conceptually inspired by the PM one (which we don't know either way, but can be compared with how we handle certain unrelated "big" enemies, not to mention a certain other enemy seemingly retconned into being the same as a more-or-less identical separate one). Anyways, per me before.
  2. LinkTheLefty (talk) You're the doc, Doc. I'll add that Frost Piranha in the earlier Paper Mario games and Fire Piranha in the later ones have very similar attacks, making them analogous to their platformer counterparts, and coloration isn't a consistent trait of Fire Piranha as of late either, depending on genre. Also, Super Smash Bros. technically had not just one, but -three- chances to mention Ice Piranha Plant, as the American English version of Piranha Plant's trophy in the Nintendo 3DS / Wii U games added a reference to Frost Piranha that wasn't in the British English or Japanese versions.
  3. Niiue (talk) Per all.
  4. Blinker (talk) Per all.

Keep Split

  1. OhoJeeOnFire (talk) As explained above, they are clearly different things. Also, they clearly have different actions. Ice piranha plants shoot ice balls, and frost piranhas don’t. It’s kind of like saying that Shrooblets and Beanies are variants of each other when they actually are variants of Goombas, not each other.
  2. Tails777 (talk) I have always opposed the "Same Japanese name = same subject" argument; I disagreed with merging Pale Piranha to Piranha Plant and I still do. Additionally, this has also been on my mind for a while and it's nothing more than just my opinion on something I probably don't fully understand, but to say one topic is intended to be the same as another topic based on the Japanese name being the same is still speculation. None of us were there when the games were localized, none of us were there when the games were developed, none of us can fully prove these things are intended to be the same. While I still disagree with it, I can kinda understand Pale Piranha's situation, as it's literally only one language that seems to indicate that it could be something different, while every other translation suggests otherwise. But for the case of only the Japanese name being similar, I still think it's taking a guess. I know next to nothing about the Japanese language or how it's translated into English so this is coming from someone with a very basic and simple opinion, but that's just what I personally believe. So per all the opposing comments in the previous discussion.
  3. Hewer (talk) Different Piranha Plant varieties that happen to share ice abilities and names in certain languages; I don't see how this situation is any different from the Ice Snifit situation. Unless we're merging those (which I'd also oppose), these would have to stay split for consistency. The list in Ultimate only having one I think was more likely just so that the Japanese version didn't say the same name twice than a covert hint that they're the same species (note that the list says Frost Piranha even though the name Ice Piranha Plant is more recent). Also, per Tails777.
  4. Swallow (talk) I would like to see more concrete evidence that these were definitely meant to be the same subject than just the Japanese name (which could possibly be coincidental). Per all.
  5. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per all, and my initial thoughts.
  6. Archivist Toadette (talk) Don't jump the gun if you don't have enough compelling evidence. PLEASE.
  7. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.

Comments

Is there a precedent or something for merging things that are essentially the same concept, and share the same name, but were probably come up with independently of each other? Blinker (talk) 17:12, November 18, 2021 (EST)

Many of our big (and sometimes small)-sized enemies come to mind, as that characteristic is self-explanatory. OhoJeeOnFire, why make the proposal if you oppose it? LinkTheLefty (talk) 17:26, November 18, 2021 (EST)
”why make the proposal if you oppose it?” I mean, that also happened with King Boo from Sunshine. Somethingone (talk) 18:03, November 18, 2021 (EST)
Somethingone is 100% correct. I only made this proposal because there was an argument from the preceding section. I stated all my reasons and, according to those reasons, I made my vote. To sum it up, I only made this proposal because I thought nobody else had the time to do it. Looking at the proposal page, I specifically put “Either MERGE OR SPLIT!” MERGE OR SPLIT!! I believe this is enough for anyone to understand. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
Usually, you want to pitch why your proposal should pass. It's really not a big deal, just unusual. To add onto enemy sizes and Doc's Grinder/Ukkiki/Ukiki example - another one that comes to mind is that Missile Bill/Bull's-Eye Bill almost certainly contains a few incidental appearances as well, but after much discussion, the current article is deemed pragmatic. @Tails777: I'm not going to get too much into that here, but I will say that your characterization of the argument as "Same Japanese name = same subject" is oversimplified - there are many cases where the foreign name is shared with wholly dissimilar subjects (etc.), but I guarantee no one is going to be proposing those merges. Your line of reasoning would have kept Piranhacus Giganticus separated indefinitely. Additionally, it's hard to deny that Pale Piranha's treatment is at least consistent with Cleft's in the same game. @Hewer: Ice Snifit is, I feel, inconsistent with Pyro Guy and Spear Guy in another RPG, but that is an entirely different discussion. Regardless of our feelings, I wouldn't say that is at all very comparable to Frost Piranha, which has had multiple appearances (and which, by the way, had its own evolution to look more like a regular Piranha Plant over time). Also, Prima's latest name for Big Piranha Plant is Mega Piranha Plant. @OhoJeeOnFire: Again, Fire Piranha demonstrates a very similar move as of Paper Mario: Sticker Star, even though Frost Piranha itself hasn't reappeared yet since the general enemy designs were updated in that game. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:25, November 19, 2021 (EST)
I don't quite see how Frost Piranha being in multiple games changes anything, and saying that its appearance changed overtime to be like a regular Piranha Plant for NSMBU boils down to just speculation. Until there's an official source telling us these two are the same (which I don't consider the Japanese names to be, since as you demonstrated, many different things share Japanese names), merging these would be based purely on guesswork, so I feel separating them makes more sense. Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 11:39, November 19, 2021 (EST)
Ultimate only listing one while (as LTL pointed out on the Pale proposal) not skipping any other Piranha from any game debut including in the list (having both Putrid and Pod) and doing so across languages seems like pretty clear-cut indication there is official consideration they are the same, while conversely, no official listing has ever considered them separate. As for your "more recent" comment, that's irrelevant as one was in-game and one was from the same people who'd previously called Sledge Bro as Sumo Bro. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:11, November 19, 2021 (EST)

To me, this is like trying to merge Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha Plant because their names translate to Poison Piranha despite their different appearances and attacks, exhaling poison breath and chomping with poison fangs and spitting poison balls respectively PrincessPeachFan (talk)

Ultimate lists Putrid Piranha and Poison Piranha separately just like it does Big Piranha and Naval Piranha, so these are merges that will assuredly not happen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:38, November 19, 2021 (EST)
@LinkTheLefty, I specifically said that it’s like saying Beanies and Shrooblets are variants of each other, not variants of Goombas. My point is that Putrid Piranhas and Poison Piranhas’ attacks will result in the player being poisoned. Frost Piranhas act like normal Piranha Plants, with an extra attack: shooting frozen breath. Ice piranha plants, however, just shoot an ice ball and are always found in pipes. If you need a better explanation, see above. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
I'm not seeing how Beanies and Shrooblets relate at all to the discussion. Anyway, the whole breath/ball thing isn't clear-cut because you are comparing the subject across different genres, where the moveset is expected to adapt. Fire Piranha from Paper Mario: Sticker Star had a fiery breath attack, but there's no call to split it from Fire Piranha Plant. Also, as the Piranhacus Giganticus merge determined, pipes are not strictly indicative of Piranha Plant species. LinkTheLefty (talk) 09:59, November 19, 2021 (EST)
I understand what you mean, but I’m not convinced. I am not changing my vote. Also, I was only relating Beanies and Shrooblets is because both are variants of a common species. It’s also like saying bullet bills are exactly the same thing as banzai bills. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
@LinkTheLefty I should point out that their attacks in Color Splash and Origami King are not breaths; they simply spit fireballs (in case you assume I'm suggesting splitting the ones from Sticker Star, I promise I am not). Bowser Nightwicked Bowser Bowser emblem from Mario Kart 8 10:28, November 19, 2021 (EST)
I knew that. I was trying to say that they are not the same thing and should not be merged. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)
@Swallow They have a "spit a cloud of hot ash" attack in Sticker Star, like how normal Piranhas have a dust-spit attack. They actually only spit fireballs very rarely in battle, to the point they didn't at all on my most recent playthrough. Similarly, iirc, TTYD's Frost Piranha just has a bite attack. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 14:46, November 19, 2021 (EST)
Of those games you mentioned, I only have TTYD, so I can say that that part is correct. Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)

@LinkTheLefty: In this case, I feel we're using the Japanese name as the main basis for this merge, despite the fact that only the Japanese and Spanish names are the same (Korean also calls a Frost Piranha an Ice Piranha Plant, though not sure if that's the same for the actual Ice Piranha). But the English and German names clearly do not translate to the same things, while several other languages also refer to a Frost Piranha as such and not as an Ice Piranha. There was a huge majority in languages that suggested that Pale Piranha's were intended to be the standard Piranha Plants, but there isn't that noticeable majority here. On top of that (and in a much simpler viewpoint), Frost Piranhas and Ice Piranhas have a few minor differences between them; Frost Piranhas are blue with blue/green stems, Ice Piranhas look identical to Piranha Plants. Frost Piranha's inflict freezing through their bite and frosty breath, Ice Piranha's inflict freezing through icy projectiles. These plants are undeniably similar, but to say they're the same is still a bit of a stretch given the several, albiet minor, differences. Again, I know next to nothing about the process of translating one language to another, but I do see notable differences that could equally suggest they aren't intended to be the same. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Robin's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

Same can be said of the brown Fire Piranhas that appear in a few games. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:50, November 19, 2021 (EST)
From what I read, brown Fire Piranhas still have the same behaviour as normal coloured Fire Piranhas. Unless I’m missing something, the only difference is their colour, rather than their colour, their methods of attack and some of their names. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Robin's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
Fire Piranha's been through its share of name changes (not even counting Lava Piranha), such as Venus Fire Trap. They additionally prefer to spit hot ash clouds in Sticker Star....quite similar to the frost clouds from previous PM games...barring TTYD, where they only bite (hence further behavioral variety within a single subseries). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:50, November 19, 2021 (EST)
Even in Sticker Star, they still had the same appearance and maintained the same ability to spit individual fireballs as they have in other mainline appearances. The ability to spew hot smoke at Mario could be comparable to how Frost Piranhas were given icy breath in Super as an additional ability. Frost Piranhas have never been shown to spit iceballs while Ice Piranha Plants have never been shown to spew icy breath. On the naming thing, that's more comparable to how Lava Bubbles used to be called Podoboos; they had a name chance, but Venus Fire Traps didn't act any different when they were named as such. Sprite of Yoshi's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Tails777 Talk to me!Robin's stock icon from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate
Indeed. If (and that's a big "if") there happens to be a new 3D Mario game that uses the unique color scheme for Fire Piranha Plants but also features Ice Piranha Plants that also have a unique color scheme, then I'd be willing to reconsider. Considering how unlikely that is right now, I think you should've waited until an entirely new Mario game features Ice Piranha Plants that are at least shown to spew icy breath. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 19:02, November 20, 2021 (EST)

Also @LinkTheLefty: Let's not forget that Ultimate never mentions Fire Jumping Piranhas and Seed Piranhas, despite having no reason not to. Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) 19:12, November 20, 2021 (EST)

I'm pretty sure Fire P-Pakkun wasn't officially distinguished until ESMB (which is...second party at best; none of the previous guides listed it, nor did the enemy cast roll), and Tane Pakkun is irrelevant as no other Piranhas debut in said game; note the point is that no other species sharing a game debut for any species listed is skipped, so when, for instance, one from Super Mario Bros. 3 is listed, all from SMB3 are listed. Same reason Double Dash's Mecha-Piranhas and the Pit Plant aren't mentioned. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:36, November 20, 2021 (EST)
Indeed. Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. incidentally gives a different, newer name for Small Piranha (and the Super Mario World Fire Snake), strongly indicating that Ultimate was referencing sources older than that. All in all, I would not underestimate the chances of this matter ending up as Parabuzzy 2.0, which would not take much effort to happen. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:48, November 21, 2021 (EST)

When this is settled, I guess the problem will be solved. I understand everyone’s points, but there is not enough evidence to merge them. Please don’t give dogmatic opinions without proof. (Credit to Toadette icon CTTT.pngFont of Archivist Toadette's signature(T|C) for the idea) Red Oho Jee from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions. OhoJeeOnFire (talk)