Talk:Super Soda

Fresh Juice

So this has the same JP name and effect as Fresh Juice, seems pretty clear-cut to me. Likely why they called it "soda" is that in Western countries, canned juice isn't as common as it is in Japan (which if Azumanga Daioh is anything to go by is fairly common), which isn't a problem in its TTYD redesign. Anyways, I think we should merge these. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:15, October 27, 2019 (EDT)

The Thousand-Year Door item doesn't cure Tiny, so because of that, I'm a bit hesitant on this one. Fresh Juice is clearly meant to be a replacement, but I can't say it's the same item. 23:41, October 27, 2019 (EDT)

Its Japanese name is literally English for "Fresh Juice" XD Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:47, October 27, 2019 (EDT)

I'm aware, but the properties are different. We shouldn't merge things just because the Japanese names between two items are the same alone. 23:52, October 27, 2019 (EDT)

Tiny is such an uncommon ailment it wouldn't surprise me if they just forgot it did that. Heck, I can't remember if enemies can give Mario that status in TTYD, making curing it irrelevant. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:10, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Pretty sure the Wizzerds and Magikoopas might be good for that off the top of my head. Not absolutely sure, though. -- Lord G. matters. 01:26, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

Not Wizzerds, but possibly Magikoopas (their bestiary description says "status ailments"). Hammer Bros. could in the first PM, but not the second. Regardless, precise properties of items change all the time, like how pretty much every consumable cures poison in SPM. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:31, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

I'm including all variants, but still might be right there. At the least enemies might end up spawning with a Mini Mr. Mini or something. -- Lord G. matters. 01:41, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

I can't remember if they ever do, actually. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:46, October 28, 2019 (EDT)

I'd be in favor of a merge. Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 15:43, November 3, 2019 (EST)

Merge to Fresh Juice

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

failed to reach consensus 8-8
See above. This has the same basic application and JP name as the Fresh Juice (that literally being "fresh juice"). Canned Juice is more of a "normal" thing in Japan than America, so they probably changed it to soda as a cultural translation. As for the TTYD one, it's obviously not a soda, so they had to go a different route. The only difference in function is that it doesn't cure shrinking, but I honestly can't remember a time when an enemy shrinks Mario in TTYD (Hammer Bros. have the ability removed, for example).

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: February 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 4, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 11, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 18, 2020 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) Per above
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per proposal.
3. Power Flotzo (talk) Per proposal.
4. LinkTheLefty (talk) For reference, the English loanword "juice" can refer to soda in Japanese, but otherwise agreed.
5. Niiue (talk) Per all.
6. Glowsquid (talk) Per LinkTheLefty in the comments.
7. Doomhiker (talk) Per all. To be fair canned juice isn't that uncommon in North America, but the fact that this item had the same Japanese and Chinese name as multiple languages' names for the item in the game's sequel, and the fact both items have similar effects and similar recipes show a large chance of them being the same.
8. SmokedChili (talk) Per all. Also given the localization of TTYD, this name change is in line with other renames like Mushroom Town (or Mushville), Parabuzzy and Chestnut King where an existing English name of the subject from the first game is replaced with a near-literal translation of its Japanese name.

Oppose

1. Scrooge200 (talk) This JP name merging has gone too far. This will confuse casual readers and it sounds ridiculous to say that a glass of juice “used to” be known as a can of soda. Different functions, too.
2. TheDarkStar (talk) - Per Scrooge.
3. Obsessive Mario Fan (talk) Per both. Fresh Juice seems more like a replacement than a redesign.
4. Toadette the Achiever (talk) Per all. The case for a redesign is just too difficult to make in this situation.
5. Chester Alan Arthur (talk) Per all.
6. Alex95 (talk) - I'm going to stick with my original point. Fresh Juice may be an intended replacement, but there are more differences than just sharing a Japanese name and the shared status cure parameter. It makes more sense to me to keep split than to merge. Enemies can spawn with a Mini Mr. Mini, btw.
7. MikhailMCraft (talk) - Per all.
8. Sdman213 (talk) - Per all.

Comments

@Scrooge ...excuse me? Care to explain how this sequel by the same people with an item with the same function (as enemy-caused shrinking isn't in TTYD in any amount relevant enough to list on the description for such a common item, if at all) and name in the language of origin by the aforementioned same people could possibly be a coincidence? Also, like LTL said, "Juice" is a loanword slang for Soda in Japanese anyways. If you're going to oppose, give points that haven't already been debunked please. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:08, February 19, 2020 (EST)

@Opposition Again....it's literally called "Fresh Juice," in English, in both games by the creators. If anything, "Super Soda" was the replacement, but in-name-only. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:24, February 20, 2020 (EST)

Where exactly is it called "Fresh Juice" in the English localization? ^(T|C) 21:21, February 20, 2020 (EST)

I did not say "English localization." I said "in English by the creators." The Japanese name is "fresh juice," as in, literally, the English words "fresh" and "juice." By the same people on the same team that made both games. That is not just proof enough, that is 100% definitive proof. There is literally no question to be had here. Why would they give two different items the same name, same basic function, and same basic lengthy list of ingredients to make it? Plenty of items went through large redesigns between the two games, such as Mystery, Mistake, and Jammin' Jelly, among others, so the different appearance is irrelevant as well. This is just an inconsistent localization stemming from the second iteration clearly not being a soda as they initially localized (not created) it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:49, February 21, 2020 (EST)

Going off this, look at that list of ingredient combinations here. Note how many of them make no sense at all as ingredients for soda, but make perfect sense as ingredients for juice. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:18, February 22, 2020 (EST)

I'll also add that I'm fairly certain returning recipes don't change major ingredients between games (the main exceptions being substitute items that don't exist in all three games, like the Egg, Mystic Egg, and Big Egg). Canned fruit juice is uncommon to western audiences but recognizable enough as a more "exotic" drink, so I'd honestly consider Super Soda to be a mistranslation altogether rather than an intended cultural one since the localizer probably thought it was meant to be a juice in the general sense given the English loanword "juice" can refer to soda, energy drinks, and I think even other dissimilar beverages in Japan. If curing the Shrink/Tiny status effect is the point of contention, it really shouldn't be because it was not only made much less common (I forgot enemies can even inflict it in this game), but it was also rebalanced to be less severe entirely, making an entire space in your inventory for a restorative item less practical when there are better items you can hold instead. By changing the graphic and little else in the sequel (which, as mentioned, isn't a problem for several other items), the developers are clarifying what kind of juice it is to their primary audience. LinkTheLefty (talk) 07:11, February 22, 2020 (EST)

@Alex95: Quite a few items cure poison in SPM but not earlier games, yet that doesn't make them separate items. What makes one status ailment more noteworthy than another? Niiue - Who has lost his tail? 16:39, March 2, 2020 (EST)

I like keeping subjects that are different, even slightly, separated from each other. Probably just a personal preference, but it makes things easier for me and possibly others.

That's actually an incredibly broad statement that can immediately come back to bite me in the butt, so never mind on that. I just think they should stay separated, simple enough. 16:41, March 2, 2020 (EST)

Why, though? What merit does that have other than violating once and only once for something that has 1.3 differences and 4 similarities? Again, I must make it perfectly clear these games were made by the same people within just a few years of each other. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:51, March 2, 2020 (EST)

"24.53% different and 75.47% the same" - This from the same user who opposed my Whirly Gate merge proposal back in the day. ^(T|C) 16:57, March 2, 2020 (EST)

No need to bring up old proposals. I realize I have a pretty weak reason, but I'm sticking with it. I never saw them as the same item. 17:00, March 2, 2020 (EST)

Also, those are things from games by different people that don't share a name in any language. Those both factor into the percentages. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:20, March 2, 2020 (EST)

Post merger

According to Luigi 1837, he had this to say about opposing the merger: "Super Soda and Fresh Juice might have similar functions in both respective games, but there are differences too, so they shouldn't be merged IMO."

There you go. I find it nonsense when a user has an opinion to say only to have it removed and acting like they said nothing.😒 I get it, the proposal has finished, but hear them out. Marino13 12:29, May 8, 2023 (EDT)

Merge to Fresh Juice, again

This talk page section contains an unresolved talk page proposal. Please try to help and resolve the issue by voting or leaving a comment.

Current time: Saturday, May 25, 2024, 20:16 GMT

I know this is an old thing that has been proposed and failed, and maybe it's a bad idea to do this so close to the TTYD remake coming out, but I've been putting this off for a while. Sorry.

Below is a table summarizing the similarities and differences between the Paper Mario and TTYD items. It shows the similarities far outweigh the differences. Furthermore, the differences that do exist (namely different name, different visual design depicting two different types of containers, and an effect that while the same when summarized, has differences when expressed as a list of smaller effects) mirror those between the Mystery? and Mystery Box, which are currently merged. I'm not sure if all of this rambling is necessary for the proposal to pass, but better safe than sorry, I guess.

	Paper Mario	Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door	Notes
Japanese name	フレッシュジュース (Fresh Juice)	フレッシュジュース (Fresh Juice)	Same name
English name	Super Soda	Fresh Juice	Different names, TTYD uses Japanese name
What does it look like?			Both are beverages. Different containers.
Standard selling price from the "List of selling prices" pages	3 coins	3 coins	Same price
What does it do?	Restores 5 FP and cures status ailments	Restores 5 FP and cures status ailments	Mostly the same effects
What status ailments, though?	Any status ailment that allows Mario to use items, which in this game is only Poison and Tiny.	I don't know (if anyone does, do tell), but I have a guess. One stage hazard in this game is rushing water that clears most status effects, positive or negative. According to this, the list is Sleep, Stop, Dizzy, Poison, Confuse, Electric, Burn, Freeze, Charge, and Payback. If we assume the two are using the same standard list of ailments, then that list includes Poison and excludes Tiny, but that wouldn't mean much, as the exact list wouldn't be specific to this item.
What recipes result in the item? (according to item pages; ignoring recipes with game-specific ingredients; recipes in both lists are bolded)	Honey Syrup Maple Syrup Jammin' Jelly Honey Syrup + Maple Syrup Honey Syrup + Koopa Leaf Jammin' Jelly + Koopa Leaf Coconut + Koopa Leaf Koopa Leaf + Maple Syrup Coconut + Maple Syrup	Honey Syrup Maple Syrup Jammin' Jelly Coconut + Turtley Leaf Jammin' Jelly + Turtley Leaf Maple Syrup + Turtley Leaf Honey Syrup + Maple Syrup Honey Syrup + Jammin' Jelly Honey Syrup + Turtley Leaf	Mostly the same recipes

Again, I apologize if this is too hasty.

Proposer: Blinker (talk)
Deadline: October 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Blinker (talk) Per proposal.
2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) I personally think it's more confusing to have what is called a "Max Mushroom" in English on the Ultra Mushroom page because of its Japanese name, but we're already doing that, and we should do this.

Comments

The remake seems very faithful to the original, but I'd have waited on this proposal until the game actually releases. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:33, October 6, 2023 (EDT)

Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I can cancel if people find it too hasty, but I hoped it wouldn't be too much of an problem. Blinker (talk) 15:41, October 6, 2023 (EDT)

I don't think it's too hasty. After all, there's no chance the remake will call Fresh Juice "Super Soda" or anything... SolemnStormcloud (talk) 16:33, October 6, 2023 (EDT)