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| ==Writing guidelines== | | ==Writing guidelines== |
| ===Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages=== | | ===Change how "infinitely respawning" enemies are counted in level enemy tables=== |
| Recently, a (completely undiscussed) amendment was made to the [[Mariowiki:Naming#derived names|naming]] system making it so quote-unquote "derived names" - as in, standard conjectural names made by cut-n-pasting descriptors from similar entities - have priority over official names from other languages (particularly the games' language of origin, which for this franchise is usually Japanese). While allowing said "derived names" as conjecture makes sense, it comes with several pitfalls, and my main concern is it is turning into a slippery slope. Much of it is discussed on the talk page for the so-called "[[Talk:Hefty Goombrat|Hefty Goombrat]]," which is a sterling example of why this was not a good idea. I have also been recently seeing cases of people moving to subjects based on objects sharing some adjective with a random obscure object in the same game, as demonstrated [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Linking_Bull%27s-Eye_Bill&curid=429765&diff=4195153&oldid=4111331 here]. To be blunt, this was a short-sighted idea (and more than likely, simply a failed experiment) and needs cut back to a reasonable level before it gets out of hand. For the record, I am favor of letting it stay when the only indications in other languages or file names or what-have-you are generic terms rather than clear "names," for instance when the only confirmed name for [[Shoot]] was just "jugador de futbol," as well as rewording clunky generic descriptors like "[[surfboard vehicle|vehicle with surfboard]]."
| | Currently, the wiki lists enemy counts for each level in tables located in that level's article. This is all well and good, but the problem arises when infinitely respawning ones (like piped ones) are included. As seen [[World 6-B (New Super Mario Bros.)|here]], this is awkwardly written as |
| | *"[number] (not including the infinite [enemy] spawning from [number] [method])," |
| | and why shouldn't it include them? That method of writing is ungainly, misleading, and bloats the table's width unnecessarily. Therefore, I propose the alternate writing of |
| | *"[number] + (∞ x [number])," |
| | with the "x [number]" and parentheses being removed if there is only one case. So in the linked example, it would be "6 + ∞," which says the same thing without contradicting itself with a lengthy diatribe. |
| | <br>(Also I had to restrain myself from using * rather than x because that's how I'm used to writing multiplication in equations. Thanks, higher-level math classes defaulting to "X" as a variable! But the asterisk could be used too, anyway.) |
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | | '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> |
| '''Deadline''': May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline''': September 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT |
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| ====Support==== | | ====Support==== |
| #{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per. | | #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per |
| #{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, these names are conjectural and shouldn't be unduly given more weight than their fellow conjectural names. | | #{{User|Altendo}} - This doesn't sound like a bad idea, although I do think there should be an asterisk like "*" instead which leads to a note saying "not including the infinite [enemy] spawning from [number] [method]", as enemies can spawn in different ways, and showing how they spawn could still be useful. If we just show "∞ x [number]", it wouldn't show how Goombas are spawned in (the linked page doesn't specify how they are spawned in otherwise). But I do like the idea of shortening the "count" section of tables. |
| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Might just be me but I'd rather not have a policy that specifically states "if you don't like this official name, just completely ignore it and make up something wacky instead" because that's ''not what this site is even remotely about''
| | <s>#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per Altendo. This formatting is much better, but I also think some note of where the infinite enemy spawner(s) originate from should be preserved.</s><br> |
| #{{User|Axis}} Per all.
| | <s>#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Per all.</s> |
| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per proposal. While some of these derived names are fine and it's sensible to have this as an option, it shouldn't take priority over an official name when one exists.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} ...Okay, yeah, KCC makes a good point we didn't think of, so, surprise! We're changing our vote! Conjectural names have their place, but we really shouldn't prioritize them over ''actual names'' if they exist.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} I'm pretty sure this all started [[Talk:Mame-san#Name source|here]], and...yeah, in practice, conjectural exceptions bloat the elegant naming policy. Plus, this is practically begging to have more "Fire Nipper Plant"-esque situations.
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| #{{User|Blinker}} Per all. | |
| #{{User|Somethingone}} Per the arguments raised above. | |
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| ====Oppose==== | | ====Oppose==== |
| #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} While I agree that some discussions may need to be made on what counts as derived conjecture and what doesn't, a flat-out repeal is '''not''' the way to go about this. Plus, some of these derived conjecture names are completely straightforward (such as "[[Fire Spike]]" or "[[Wonder Hoppycat]]"), as in we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject. | | #{{User|Hewer}} I don't see the benefit of changing this. The current wording is straightforward and succinct, I'd expect the reader to understand "6 (not including the infinite Goombas spawning from one Warp Pipe)" easily. Changing it to "6 + ∞" just makes it less clear for no reason, I'd definitely be confused if I saw that and didn't know this specific context. The fact that the other support votes have also brought up how doing this risks losing the specific information completely (and suggested a more long-winded solution that seems to contradict the proposal) compels me to oppose this more. |
| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} The only problem with this policy is that it's being applied in cases and/or ways that it shouldn't be (I personally think Hefty Goombrat was a step too far). If it's kept to reasonable use like the examples Archivist Toadette gave, it's fine. No need to repeal the entire thing. | | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Hewer. |
| #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per opposition. | | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per Archivist Toadette, really. To me, it does seem greater caution and discussion on these derived names is warranted, but a case-by-case approach seems more useful here than a flat-out repeal. I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here, tossing away something that's generally beneficial to readers in the process of correcting a few cases where this has been misapplied. | | #{{User|Axii}} Per Hewer |
| #{{User|Tails777}} Per all. | | #{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Shoey}} Per all. | | #{{User|EvieMaybe}} we don't need to throw a mathematical equation at people |
| <s>#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We really ought to be handling poor names born from this policy on a case-by-case basis, rather than nixing the policy altogether and potentially causing more harm than good.</s>
| | #{{User|Sparks}} Per all. |
| | #{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} I realized that this only makes sense if you have it explained to you like in the proposal description, which defeats the purpose. |
| | #{{User|Arend}} I feel that "[number] (+ [number] infinite spawn points)" would be less awkward to write than what we currently do ''and'' more understandable fir most people than what is proposed here |
| | #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. |
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| ====Comments==== | | ====Comments==== |
| @Opposition I did say in the last sentence that this isn't removing it completely, just changing its position in the "acceptable naming" hierarchy. The reason I said "repeal" is an incarnation of it existed before for generic-borne titles and I am trying to go back to that as - unlike the current iteration - it isn't just ''begging'' to be misused. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT) | | {{@|Hewer}} - "succinct" would generally imply "short, sweet, and to-the-point," of which the current method is the exact opposite. I'm fine with including an asterisk-note next to the infinity, but the current one is much too bloated, outright admits to stating false information, and since the tables are center-aligned with that horizontal-bloat, it makes it look incredibly awkward. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:41, September 17, 2024 (EDT) |
| | :I guess we just have totally opposing opinions on this one, because I don't personally find ten words of explanation to be "much too bloated", would rather "state false information" (not really what's happening because it's immediately clarified and the only way not to state any "false" info would be to just put "∞" which helps no one) than obscure the meaning of what we're trying to say, and I don't at all think the somewhat wider tables look "incredibly awkward". This is a case where I feel giving more explanation than "6 + ∞" is necessary for the sake of conveying clear information, so I'd rather prioritise that over having a thin table (which I still don't really see why that's so desirable). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:19, September 18, 2024 (EDT) |
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| | If this proposal passes, I think that a dedicated template should be made; something like <code><nowiki>{{infinite respawn|5|3}}</nowiki></code> that would produce "{{hover|5 + (∞ × 3)|5 (not including the 3 infinite spawning points)}}". Or at the very least, use an actual "×" symbol rather than "x". {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 12:08, September 19, 2024 (EDT) |
| | :I dislike the idea of hiding details in easily missable hover text and don't really see the benefit of using it. It just makes it more convoluted. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 11:12, September 20, 2024 (EDT) |
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| I guess the best way to put it is this: if an official name ''that is a name'' exists, period, there is no excuse whatsoever for there to be a "conjecture" template of any sort. That's not hypothesizing, that's ignoring, and to be frank is a grotesque perversion of the policies this site has had for decades that have not caused any harm whatsoever - meanwhile, ''these'' have plenty of potential for misleading people. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT) | | I'll refrain from voting because I have a visceral reaction to anything that resembles a math formula, and I want as little as possible for personal preference to seep into my vote. That's not to say I don't understand what's being proposed, in fact it makes perfect sense if you're aiming strictly for concision, but you'd need to take into account how accessibly that information is communicated--you'd need to establish that "infinity symbol" stands for infinite enemy spawning point, which is not immediately clear. At that point, you'd go for a relatively lengthy explanation nonetheless. Though, I agree that the phrasing in that page you linked doesn't sound inclusive. I think something like "5 individual, 3 infinite spawning points" works better if we're going down this path.<br>If the proposal passes, I'd like to see it implemented in the manner Jdtendo suggests above.<br>EDIT: I'm aware there's [[Mario Kart Tour race points system#Bonus-points boost|already plenty of math on this wiki that has potential to confound people]], but in that case, not only is its succinctness a better way to explain how the game's scoring system works (as opposed to paragraphs-long descriptions), but it's taken straight out of the game as well. I'd say, use math formulas only when you're sure prose would be of less service to its intended audience: people looking up how many enemies are in a level aren't necessarily interested in complex gameplay dynamics. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:12, September 19, 2024 (EDT), edited 14:55, September 19, 2024 (EDT) |
| :Then what about the examples I brought up? {{User:Archivist Toadette/sig}} 07:30, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::What about them? They have official names, but the wiki opts to give them ''explicitly'' conjectural ones because apparently a couple of sysops thought so. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:33, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| I still find the idea that these names are "conjectural" to be kind of weird, if that's the big hang-up here. If we can [[MarioWiki:Naming#Japanese|already take some liberties with Japanese titles]] I don't see why we can't just look at something and say "oh, this is literally Goomba's Japanese name, let's just call it Goomba", especially when the name is partially English already. That's just doing some simple translation, not really making conjectural names? I'm speaking as someone with no background in translation, mind you, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT) | | I'd personally prefer if this was notated with ω instead of ∞, something like "{{hover|3ω+5|3 infinite spawn points and 5 others}}", but that would probably be too confusing to anyone not already familiar with transfinite ordinal notation. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 10:01, September 21, 2024 (EDT) |
| :Conjecture occurs when you're presuming something to be the case in the absence of hard facts. Archive Toadette states in his vote that "we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject". "'''Assume'''". That's the thrust of this policy: assumption. Which is pretty much synonymous with conjecture, and some editors are taking issue with prioritizing that over official names. Regarding the liberties on Japanese names, there's nothing conjectural about adapting something like [[Sniper|Sunaipā]] to "Sniper", because it's literally the word's Japanese transliteration--the romanization reflects how the word sounds when converted to Japanese writing. Note how that policy states that instances of "Kuppa" should be adapted to "[[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]", and not "Bowser", even though that's his Japanese name. "Kuribo" wouldn't be adapted to "Goomba" in article titles because that's not a transliteration, that a compound of actual Japanese morphemes. The basis of the Japanese naming policy isn't the same as that of the conjectural naming policy. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:43, April 29, 2024 (EDT) | | :This should be written "ω⋅3+5" because 3⋅ω = ω; {{wp|Ordinal arithmetic#Multiplication|multiplication on transfinite ordinal numbers}} is not commutative. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 12:40, September 21, 2024 (EDT) |
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| @Hooded Pitohui: Could you be more specific on what is or isn't acceptable? Because I'm kind of struggling to picture any time these conjectural names should have priority over an actual official name, or what would make that case different to others (note that they'd still take priority over filenames per the proposal). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:01, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
| | Maybe just have a table for finite enemies and a table for infinite enemies? There's horizontal space for both. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 11:33, September 21, 2024 (EDT) |
| :I think it may be helpful to start with a disclaimer and an acknowledgement of where I'm coming from in casting a vote. I'm a very infrequent, casual editor on the wiki side of things, so when I do wade into these proposals on the intricacies of the wiki's policies on naming or classification or scope of coverage, I don't often have a large repository of examples to draw upon, and rarely am I able (or attempting to) make any kind of case or argument. Generally, I'm entering these discussions from the perspective of a reader/user of the wiki first, and casual contributor second, and generally my votes are going to be informed by that perspective, so I apologize if this seems a bit broad and dealing in hypotheticals. For me, I'd think anything that's a straight localization of a recurring, official enemy/item/what have you is acceptable, and more adjectival/descriptive parts of a name or a name of something that hasn't really had a localization established is not. To use the cited Hefty Goombrat example, "Hefty" probably shouldn't have been conjecturally localized, but a Goombrat is pretty clearly a Goombrat, so conjecturally localizing that part seems fine to me. If, I don't know, Nintendo introduces a Lakitu that throws fireballs down that become Firesnakes, and it's called "[something] Jugem" officially in Japanese material, again, I think we leave the descriptive part as-is because there's no clear precedent, but we know a "Jugem/Jugemu" is consistently localized as Lakitu, so we might as well localize that because an average reader will recognize "Lakitu" quickly. Meanwhile, if we just got, say, a generic cloud spitting fireballs with the same behavior, I'd say we'd be wise not to do a conjectural localization because there's not clear precedent for what that'd get localized as. Of course, even always following really clear, solid precedent, we might get it wrong occasionally, especially if Nintendo decides to rename a recurring enemy at some point, but it's a wiki, information is constantly getting updated, renamed, and reevaluated anyway. Hope that helps explain my reasoning a bit better! [[User:Hooded Pitohui|Hooded Pitohui]] ([[User talk:Hooded Pitohui|talk]]) 13:26, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
| | :That just needlessly splits information, which I again don't see the benefit of (and I still don't really see how there's a problem here that needs fixing anyway). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 21:26, September 21, 2024 (EDT) |
| ::Slippiest of slippery slopes. Just use redirects if you expect casual readers to look up for a thing more intuitively than how it's been officially presented. There's no need to compromise encyclopedic integrity to cater to what readers expect to see. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:06, April 29, 2024 (EDT) | |
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| ==New features== | | ==New features== |
| ===Expand ''Rhythm Heaven'' series coverage===
| | ''None at the moment.'' |
| The [[WarioWare (series)|''WarioWare'']] and [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven (series)|''Rhythm Heaven'']] series cross over with each other very frequently for various reasons. As such, this wiki currently has some [[:Category:Rhythm Heaven series|limited coverage of ''Rhythm Heaven'' games]]. I believe that this coverage should be slightly expanded. While our fellow NIWA member Rhythm Heaven Wiki is doing a great job documenting these things and linking to it when relevant works, it would still be nice for the Super Mario Wiki to have ''all'' the ''WarioWare''-related ''Rhythm Heaven'' content covered within its scope.
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| The new articles I suggest should be created are:
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Rhythm Heaven Fever|''Rhythm Heaven Fever'']] (contains the game [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]], which features [[Young Cricket]] and was the first appearance of [[Cicada]], who has since appeared in more ''WarioWare'' games than ''Rhythm Heaven'' games)
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Kung Fu Ball|Kung Fu Ball]] (stars [[Young Cricket]] and [[Cicada]])
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Tap Trial|Tap Trial]] (a version starring [[Ashley]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Munchy Monk|Munchy Monk]] (a version starring [[Master Mantis]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Fillbots 2|Fillbots 2]] (a version starring [[Mike]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Super Samurai Slice|Super Samurai Slice]] (a version starring [[18-Volt]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:The Clappy Trio 2|The Clappy Trio 2]] (a version starring [[Jimmy T]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Freeze Frame|Freeze Frame (Rhythm Game)]] (a version starring [[Dr. Crygor]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Catchy Tune 2|Catchy Tune 2]] (a version starring [[Kat & Ana]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| * [[rhythmheaven:Ringside|Ringside]] (a version starring [[Wario-Man]] appears in ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'')
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| To be clear, these articles would ''only'' cover these subjects to the extent that they are relevant to the ''WarioWare'' series, much like how the ''[[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]'' article is written. This is ''not'' a proposal to annex the Rhythm Heaven Wiki's coverage into our own.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|JanMisali}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Create articles for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' and all Rhythm Games that feature playable ''WarioWare'' characters====
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per my proposal.
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| ====Only create an article for ''Rhythm Heaven Fever''====
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| #{{User|Hewer}} While we do have articles for the Mario minigames in [[Nintendo Land]], these ones are, from what I can tell, less substantial and reskins of un-Mario-related minigames, so I feel like giving articles to every one is a bit overkill and covering them like we currently do on the [[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]] page is neater and gives more purpose to those pages. Having a Rhythm Heaven Fever article but covering the main thing connecting it to Mario on a separate page would be like if we split the Super Mario Mash-up from the [[Minecraft]] page. That said, giving Rhythm Heaven Fever guest appearance status seems reasonable.
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| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} This makes the most sense to us. While the Rhythm Game articles are a tad overkill (it'd be like making a <s>Spleef</s> "Tumble" article because of Minecraft's coverage on the wiki), given ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' is retroactively the debut of [[Cicada]], it seems only fair to at least give that game an article as a guest appearance. After all, if ''[[Art Style: PiCTOBiTS]]'' <small>(our beloved)</small> can have an article as a token guest appearance because you can use Mario items, why can't Rhythm Heaven Fever when it has the debut of a ''WarioWare'' character?
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Second choice, per Hewer and Camwoodstock.
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
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| #{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi.
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| #{{User|BMfan08}} Hesitant as I was at first, I think this option is fair enough. Per all.
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| #{{User|Arend}} After thinking about it, Cicada's debut in Fever COULD be likened to the whole ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' thing... somewhat, at least.
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| #{{User|EvieMaybe}} per all
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| #{{User|Scrooge200}}<br>'''The Voters Say...'''<br>It's only natural, considering how much the two series cross-reference each other.<br>And a character being named in another series is definitely worth noting.<br>[83] ''Superb!''
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| ====Only create articles for the eight Rhythm Games in ''Megamix'' that have ''WarioWare'' versions====
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| ====Do nothing====
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| #{{user|Super Mario RPG}} First of all, we have Rhythm Heaven Wiki, which you even mentioned in your proposal. We can still practically find ways to cover all of the ''Super Mario'' content in ''Rhythm Heaven'' without going overboard, otherwise we may find ourselves with a successor to the ''Super Smash Bros.'' coverage issue. Also, when you said in your proposal that you thought it would be "nice," that's vague and based on personal opinion, since one could swap out ''Rhythm Heaven'' for anything (''Bayonetta'', ''Shin Megami Tensei'', ''Terraria'', etc.) Wiki scope should be about practicality, not whether someone thinks something is "nice."
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| #{{user|Shadow2}} Both games constitute a minor cameo appearance. We absolutely do not need a FULL page about the ENTIRE game of RHF when Young Cricket only appears in one single small mode.
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| ====Comments====
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| @Super Mario RPG: Obviously "nice" was being used to mean "preferable given the described circumstances", not sure what gave you an impression otherwise. One could not swap out Rhythm Heaven for any other franchise as Bayonetta, Shin Megami Tensei, and Terraria have not had frequent crossovers with the WarioWare series. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 16:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Hewer: To be fair, there ''is'' precedent for giving ''Mario'' reskins of otherwise unrelated minigames dedicated articles, namely the [[Game & Watch Gallery (series)|''Game & Watch Gallery'' series]]. I understand your point though, it might be overkill to have full coverage of all these minigames when they're already handled on the Rhythm Heaven Wiki. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 17:00, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Shadow2: We're already doing precisely this for [[Rhythm Heaven Megamix]]. And maybe a few others that I don't remember at the moment. [[User:BMfan08|BMfan08]] ([[User talk:BMfan08|talk]]) 13:22, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Plus [[Nintendo Badge Arcade]], [[Minecraft]], [[Tetris 99]], [[AR Games]], [[StreetPass Mii Plaza]], [[Nintendo Land]], etc. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:46, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Yeah, and I'm opposed to every one of those pages existing too (Except Nintendo Land) because they're cameos. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 23:16, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Shadow2: To clarify, Young Cricket's role in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' is not a "minor cameo appearance". Young Cricket's appearance in ''Rhythm Heaven Megamix'' where he briefly shows up in the background in the "Wario... Where?" version of Munchy Monk is a minor cameo. Young Cricket is a ''playable character'' in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever''. ''Rhythm Heaven'' games are music-themed minigame collections, so a character "only" being playable in a minigame does not mean the same thing that it would in a game that ''isn't'' a minigame collection. Furthermore, Kung Fu Ball has had a direct impact on the ''WarioWare'' series, to the extent that a plot point in ''WarioWare: Move It!'' (the reveal of [[Cicada]]) requires the player to be familiar with Young Cricket's role in ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' in order to have the full context. While I understand not wanting to give each of these minigames full coverage individually, I strongly believe that the game ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' itself is unquestionably relevant enough to the ''WarioWare'' series (and, by extension, to the ''Super Mario'' franchise) to justify giving it a dedicated article. {{User:JanMisali/sig}} 13:39, April 27, 2024 (EDT)
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| @Shadow2: This proposal is not seeking to cover literally ''everything'' that Rhythm Heaven Fever has for its potential article; just the stuff that is actually ''relevant'' to the ''Super Mario'' franchise (or in this case, the ''WarioWare'' series). The 2-player Endless Game Kung-Fu Ball is major enough to be covered in a ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' article on this wiki (in a similar fashion to the articles that BMfan and Hewer have listed), given that not only the ''WarioWare'' character Young Cricket is playable, but his Player 2 partner, Cicada, eventually made her way into the ''WarioWare'' series as well, via the character trailers made for ''WarioWare Gold'', and in-game with ''WarioWare: Move It!'' This would essentially make ''Rhythm Heaven Fever'' to Cicada what ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' is to [[Shy Guy]] and [[Birdo]]. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:35, April 28, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Removals== | | ==Removals== |
| ===Remove profiles and certain other content related to the ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia'' from the wiki===
| | ''None at the moment.'' |
| The wiki currently houses a sizeable number of transcriptions of information from the 2015 ''[[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]]'', mainly the Japanese edition, in the form of character and enemy profiles. I stated my concern [[Talk:Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#Copyright infringement|here]] that this practice may infringe Dark Horse/Nintendo's copyright over the product, since, to my knowledge, the book's entire selling point is to inform you on the stuff you find in Mario games through bitesized blurbs. In incorporating these blurbs within its knowledge base, the Mario Wiki, a free resource, is not just impairing the very purpose of the book, but, given that it's still in print, may negatively impact its sales. In fact, that second point is the reason this proposal concerns this book only and not similar publications like ''[[Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia]]'', which has long been out of print and has been superseded by the SMB Encyclopedia, making it highly unlikely that some big wig will send Porple a DMCA strike over something like [[Fire (100m)#Perfect Ban Mario Character Daijiten|Fire (100m)'s profile]]. When it comes to the 2015 Encyclopedia, though, that has a reasonable likelihood of happening and it's best the wiki enforces good faith.
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| On a similar basis, one user who engaged with the topic in the above talk page has also questioned the wiki's need to feature scans of the book's mistakes in its very article. Given the small size of each blurb, the scans are essentially taking away substantial chunks of information in a way that cannot be conceived as demonstrative or transformative under US Fair Use law.
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| What this proposal aims to do is the following:
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| *remove encyclopedia bios listed on various articles, regardless of their source's language. [[Tryclyde#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. bio|Here's an example]]. [[List of Yoshi profiles and statistics#Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.|Here's another]].
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| *delete the scans in the "List of English translation errors and typos not from the Super Mario Wiki" section of the encyclopedia's article, as well as any other scans of the book's contents, '''unless''' said content has been displayed by Nintendo or one of their official distributors for the purpose of promoting the book. To exemplify: [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 20.png|This]], [[:File:Encyclopedia Error 6.png|this]], and [[:File:ESMB page 27.png|this]] image should be deleted if the proposal passes. [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt1.jpg|This]] and [[:File:EncyclopediaSMB - Characters pt2.jpg|this]] one should also be deleted, since the content depicted in these images hasn't been used by Shogakukan, Amazon, or some other official distributor to portray the Japanese edition on their online storefronts. On the other hand, the artwork shown in the article's gallery, such as [[:File:Bowser Jr Coloring Book.png|this one]], '''shouldn't''' be removed unless they depict textual information that infringes copyright.
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| A few notes:
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| *Paraphrases of the encyclopedia's information will be allowed under the proposal, so the book's article may continue to describe its mistakes until further notice.
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| *Small quotes of the book will also be permitted (e.g.: "This text is translated from the Japanese instruction booklet.") if they do not violate this proposal's requirements, albeit it's entirely up to editors to decide how small a quote should be and whether it fits US Fair Use.
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| *Subject names unique to the encyclopedia are not concerned by this proposal.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': April 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Support====
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| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per proposal.
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| #[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) - Book's only 9 years old, this is worrisome.
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| #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all. Having scans as "proof" of mistakes is especially odd, just use the book and page number as a source.
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| #{{user|MegaBowser64}} Well, we don't want to get sued for 34 thousand dollars in the Federal Court of Malaysia now, do we? And we probably don't want a DMCA from Dark Horse/Nintendo either. Per all of yall (collectively)
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| #{{User|FanOfRosalina2007}} Per all. Good move, Koopa con Carne.
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| #{{User|Somethingone}} Per proposal (as someone who usually likes images like this), and I personally don't agree with the opposition. I saw plenty of DMCAs from scans like this before.
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| #{{User|Hooded Pitohui}} Per proposal and per Waluigi Time's reasoning.
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| #{{User|Okapii}} Per all; nothing we'd be removing has enough value to risk any kind of legal action against the wiki; basically, better safe than sorry.
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| #{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
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| #{{user|PnnyCrygr}} yeah, this is all just chunks of copyrighted content; best to remove than to be dmcaed by darkhorse. per all
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| ====Oppose====
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| #{{User|Axis}} I genuinely don't see how use of limited material from the book on pages relevant to the subject in question is by any means problematic.
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| #{{User|Hewer}} Per Axis.
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| #{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} Until we know what the book itself says, I'm opposing. We can't just go, "Oh, here's this thing from 9 years ago, we can't use images of it because copyright blah blah blah." That would set a precedent that should not get set. Super Mario Pia was brought up in this proposal, as was The Art of Super Mario Odyssey in the linked talkpage, but what about others? I don't want any bad precedents being set.
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| <strike>#{{User|Pseudo}} Per Axis.</strike> On second thought, choosing to abstain, at least for the time being.
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| ====Comments====
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| @Axis Put it another way: how legal would it be if you cut down a copyrighted movie in 30 second clips and uploaded all of them to your youtube channel? That's exactly what the wiki does, except with a book. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:03, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :We're going to abstain from this vote (we're moreso concerned about citogenesis than we are copyright, admittedly, and dealing with the former generally implies dealing with the latter by proxy), but uh. We do kind of do ''exactly that'', as policy, for audio. Like, we know that's not what you meant, you meant uploading the ''whole thing'' in segments, but like, we do just outright have max-30 second excerpts for audio as a policy where going over that isn't allowed... ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:36, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :There is a pretty big difference, we're not compiling every bit of information into the same page. The information is scattered across the wiki pages, it's just not comparible. By the way, I'm not opposing to removing book scans from the wiki. Maybe the proposal should have more than 2 options? [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 15:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Whether or not what the wiki is doing is 1:1 comparable to my example is irrelevant, what's relevant is that both practices are illegal and may net the owner of the site / YT channel a DMCA strike. You can theoretically read the entire SMB Encyclopedia just by using the search function on the wiki to look up each enemy's bio, and there's a chance far larger than zero that someone would be choosing to go that route instead of buying the book if the wiki actually had complete coverage of it, which is where we're headed now. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:07, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::I'm still not convinced, sorry. [[User:Axis|Axis]] ([[User talk:Axis|talk]]) 00:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::Yeah, I'm with Axis here. We're not having 100% coverage, just the bios, mistakes/errors/plagarism, and a gallery. Not a FULL ON EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK IS HERE! thing. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 08:38, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::"We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents" {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:59, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::The things actually listed on the [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia]] article itself (to be as exceedingly unambiguous as possible, we are referring to the article we just linked to, the one where a Ctrl+F for "MIPS" currently yields no results) are literally just the errors/instances of plagiarism. We sat down and counted that, if you don't include any of the pages with overlap (e.g. Page 241 having both an error unique to the book and born out of citogenesis), we only discuss 67 of the book's 256 pages, plus or minus 4 that lack a page number and we thusly cannot verify, or roughly ≈27.5% of all pages.<br>Many of these are only single-sentence aspects of the pages, and much of these come from the citogenesis examples--it is not "the entirety of the book's contents" (the fact we can't actually prove the exact quantity alone should be proof of that). And given the majority of these are about the plagiarism anyways, we don't exactly feel like humoring the idea that we should just kind of remove these acknowledgements that the book copied from us just because the book is still being sold--that's how you get things like newbies randomly moving articles back to their conjectural titles because "the book said so", even though the book only said so because it copied our work in the first place. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:08, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::The proposal has nothing to do with what you wrote. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:20, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Admittedly, we misread on the whole removing things outright thing, that one's on us, oops. <s>we're so tired after last week y'all, this aside ''is'' entirely unrelated to the proposal.</s> However, we do feel like it is worth pointing out that the statement that we cover "the entirety of the book's contents" is inaccurate, which given that statement is directly meant to counter-act Axis' own vote, we think that is reasonably related to the proposal. And, as we mentioned earlier, we're far more concerned with the whole "risk of citogenesis courtesy of the book itself having copied various names that were meant to be conjectural" aspect of that article than we are if we should include images or not, hence why we've abstained from voting. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:26, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::The profiles concerned by this proposal are mainly from the Japanese version of the book, which of course didn't use names from the wiki. This proposal is completely unrelated to the English version having taken names from the wiki (as rare as that is for a discussion about this book). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:31, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::...'''We may be stupid''' (as we mentioned, uh, ''we're a little tired from the Everything''. apologies for just kinda barging in and evidently getting tied up in an entirely unrelated article's business... ;P) {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 13:36, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::I feel like our argument is getting semantic. Perhaps I have my large share of blame for framing the issue in absolute terms, but whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:41, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::So basically no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 13:43, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::::::::I didn't say ''anything'' of this sort. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::""We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents"". "whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full." Does that not sound like "no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 15:39, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::::::::::No? "The wiki shouldn't copy so much from the book" is very different from "it should not contain even a single mention of the book". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:42, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::Yeah, and let a lot of work go to waste. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 15:56, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::::::::::::Do you wanna get sued? Including all the bios from that book, which is ''the entirety of said book's contents'', while it is still on the market, is still justifiable grounds for a copyright strike. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:27, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::Entirety? As in "Let's ignore the other stuff in this"? And what does the book itself say? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 17:07, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::::::::::::::Literally what "other stuff" in the book? That's all there is. Little pictures (some of the artwork I ''do'' want us to have), and bios. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:12, April 24, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::::The non-bios. Plus, you didn't answer my other question. {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 18:06, April 24, 2024 (CST)
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| :::::::::::::::::::What "non-bios" do you speak of? Also I could not understand your question. What does the book say on ''what''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::::::Everything that isn't just bios. And I meant what does the book say in terms of copyright? [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 10:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::::::::::::''Super Mario Bros.™ 1985-2018 Nintendo. © 2015 Shogakukan. All rights reserved. Dark Horse Books® and the Dark Horse logo are registered trademarks of Dark Horse Comics, Inc. All rights reserved. No portion of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted, in any form or by any means, without the express written permission of Dark Horse Comics, Inc. Names, characters, places, and incidents featured in this publication either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to any persons (living or dead), events, institutions, or locales, without satiric intent, is coincidental.''" You mean that? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:12, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::::::::::::::Yes. But I don't remember anything concerning "-2018"...Maybe it's just me. [[User:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)]] ([[User talk:SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)|talk]]) 13:27, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? This is one of the reasons why I always made it a point to keep citations to their earliest instance. However, there are still plenty of things that are unique to the book to our knowledge, like the tidbit of MIPS being Peach's pet. What happens to that info if the proposal passes? Not to mention, ''Super Mario Pia'' was released around the same time as ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' - do those profiles not count because they don't have the same global reach? I think maybe a cutoff date needs to be established. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:52, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :The proposal isn't about how the book is cited. The MIPS tidbit and citation can stay; the quote is supplementary, and if it constitutes the entirety of MIPS' description in the book, it can be handily removed with little impact on the subject's coverage and how its info is sourced. I omitted Super Mario Pia out of sheer oversight, admittedly, though given its anniversary nature I'm not sure if it's even sold anymore, and I believe official availability should be our primary cutoff, rather than the publishing date. I'd have Pia handled in another discussion. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:11, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| :''Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later?'' I can't speak for the proposer, but in the past week we've had Nintendo issuing a takedown request toward Valve for hosting copyrighted Nintendo assets on Garry's Mod, after 15+ years of seemingly being fine with the stuff. That alone makes this conversation ''very'' relevant. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 16:20, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Squiddy that's been proven to be a false-flag perpetrated by trolls. That being said, it's in-character for them. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:43, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::: [https://twitter.com/garrynewman/status/1783501547361411494?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1783501547361411494%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url= Nope]. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::To be honest, if push came to shove, we feel like this'd be a rare instance of a proposal being cancelled and immediately coming into effect (that ''has'' happened before, after all, usually with "move to <X> name" proposals that ultimately didn't have any backlash whatsoever--though it coming into use for this circumstance would be rather extraordinary)... though if Nintendo was suing a wiki about their work, why they would ''only'' target an article about a book is another question we really would rather not think much of the implications on. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 17:05, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::Again, it's not about the book's article, it's about the book's contents being disseminated across "profiles" pages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:44, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::Now you've done it, Camwoodstock!! Go to the chalkboard and write "this proposal is not about the article on ''Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia''" 100 times!!! {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:58, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::We should've been clearer--we ''know'' it's about the '''''sections on the book that are in other articles' profile sections''''', and '''''NOT strictly just the article on the book and only that article'''''. You really don't need to dogpile us on it at this point. Can we address the thing we actually were trying to talk about in the first place with the whole "our point is asking why Nintendo only sue us over that and not anything else" question? In absolutely zero uncertain terms: We are not comfortable with the repeated teases about our own ambiguous syntax here. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 19:30, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::In that case, it's not ambiguous, you plain and simply said one thing and meant another. Anyways, it's due to it being still in print and the bios in it being the entire point of the book's existence. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:14, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::To play devil's advocate--what about anything else Nintendo's made that's "still in print"? While we know this proposal was only made about removing the mentioned bios and scans, books aren't the only thing that can be "in print". {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:51, April 25, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Consider that a lot of uploaded exclusive concept artwork from ''The Art of Super Mario Odyssey'' was removed for the same reason (notably impacting the [[Broodals]] page). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:55, April 26, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::::::::You know, there may be a flaw with this proposal should it pass...<!--Given the circumstance, I'm pointing this out in the unorthodox form of a hidden note to help ensure editors' eyes only. Even if we "remove" the profiles and such content, it still be accessed by anyone navigating the page histories. If we're that concerned, shouldn't we also go as far as to block portions of those edits without hopefully having to delete entire page revisions?-->...Eh hem. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:12, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::That's something I've been aware of since before I even drafted the proposal, but I had no idea how to bring attention to it. Maybe Porplemontage has a solution? 👀 {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:21, April 29, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Changes== | | ==Changes== |
| ===Overhaul titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages===
| | ''None at the moment.'' |
| With the recent release of the [[Nintendo Switch]] remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]'', we have already seen the introduction of two new worlds - [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]], as well as their plus variants. However, while I was documenting levels for the remake, I have noticed an issue - since these worlds also change the numbering for [[Spooky House]], [[Mystic Forest]], and [[Twilight City]]'s level pages, this causes several concerns for me in regards to naming level articles with generic-named stage numberings in games where worlds are named:
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| *Right now, the level numberings for the various levels in ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' are correspondent to the GBA version. If I attempt to move those pages to match the Switch numbering (for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 4-1) to "[[Level 5-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" (Spooky House 5-1, Switch version)), this can cause several issues with us cleaning up all the links to other level pages, and is especially the case for links to various Mystic Forest (5-x > 7-x) and Spooky House (4-x > 5-x) pages.
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| *Related to above, the new [[Merry Mini-Land]] and [[Slippery Summit]] pages have a slightly conjectural variation of the game's title. Take a look at this for example: "[[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]]", aka the first stage of Merry Mini-Land.
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| **As a reminder: nowhere in any circumstance has the remake been titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''", it is simply titled "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''". It could be seen as confusing especially as there are some [[reissue]]s of games that are officially titled the same way too (like ''[[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS]]'').
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| **I attempted to get around this by initially naming the title of the article as "Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch))", but it caused issues with rendering the title on top of the page.
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| What I wanted to propose is to '''overhaul the titles of generic-named level/course/stage pages'''. Level articles that fall under this description are:
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| *Levels with generic numbering identifiers in worlds that are not named in any circumstance (including in-game and supplementary material like ''[[Nintendo Power]]''). Example is [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|World 1-1]] in ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''.
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| *Levels with generic numbering identifiers in named worlds. Examples include [[Level 1-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Level 1-1 in Mario Toy Company]] (from ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''), and [[World 2-3 (Super Mario Bros. 3)|World 2-3 in Desert Land/Desert Hill]] from ''[[Super Mario Bros. 3]]''.
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| *Levels with names do not count, regardless if the world is named. This is true for various levels in ''[[Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island]]'' ([[Make Eggs, Throw Eggs]]). These article names are kept as is.
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| Given that there are a lot of generic-named level articles that fall under this jurisdiction, this is a very '''large-scale''' proposal, and may affect most, if not all "x-x" level articles. This will require help from the wiki's higher staff, especially an administrator who can handle several article renames and moves at large. Due to this, please note that the effects of the proposal may not be always guaranteed to be '''immediate''' even if it is already passed, but I hope to get this done with everyone as soon as possible.
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| After brainstorming for a while, these are the possible formats we're going to aim for when making level pages, see below.
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| ====Option 1: "(World/Game Name) - (Level Code)"====
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| This is the new page naming format for levels which is based on the naming format used for WiKirby (note for reference: levels in the ''[[wikirby:Kirby (series)|Kirby]]'' series are called "stages", while worlds are called "levels".) Examples of articles on WiKirby that follow this format are [[wikirby:Cookie Country - Stage 1|Cookie Country - Stage 1]] (Level 1-1 or Stage 1 of Cookie Country in ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]''), and [[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble - Lvl 7-2]] in ''[[wikirby:Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble|Kirby Tilt 'n' Tumble]]''.
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| This makes it easier to update a level's numbering designation should any circumstances of adding new worlds in-between happen again (like how Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit were handled in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong''). It can also make it easier to identify levels from each other easily without having to look up the name of the world first. This will also ensure moving articles if new worlds are added in remakes are made easier as well. Additionally, this will prevent game name confusion from occurring, specifically my issue with the Merry Mini-Land stages using the identifier "''Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch''".
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| With this format, this is how it will work:
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| *For levels that use generic numbering (1-x) and are from a named world, they will be named "(World Name) - X-X". For example, in the Switch version of ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', we can call Level 5-DK and Level 8-2 as "[[Level 5-DK|Spooky House - Level 5-DK]]" and "[[Level 6-2 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Twilight City - Level 8-2]]".
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| **As a side note - if two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
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| **Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently. For example, in ''[[Hotel Mario]]'', levels are named as "Stage #", and Super Mario Wiki refers to their level articles with the title ("Stage # (Hotel Name)"). It can be changed to be something like "[[Stage 1 (Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel)|Lemmy's High-ate Regency Hotel - Stage 1]]".
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| *For levels that use generic numbering and are in '''unnamed''' worlds (eg. ''[[Super Mario Bros.]]''), they will be named "(Game Name) - X-X". For example, take World 1-1 in ''Super Mario Bros.''. This can be named as "[[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)|Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1]]" instead. The "world" designator can be renamed to "Level/Area/Stage/Course" depending on how the game calls it.
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| **Some of you might be concerned with it conflicting with a certain job name in ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'' - "[[Super Mario Bros. W1-1?]]". It shouldn't conflict at all - the format of the title is seemingly close but in the end it's fairly different.
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| *Redirects can be made based on the original names of the articles. For example, if "[[Level 6-3 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)]]" is moved to "Twilight City - Level 8-3", the former can be turned into a redirect that leads to the latter new title of the article itself, to make it easier to search for wiki readers who are more used to the old format. Another example is if "[[World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)]]" is moved to "Grass Land - World 1-2", where typing in "World 1-2 (Super Mario Bros. 3)" still leads to the article with the new name.
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| *Levels with names are already kept as is. If some level names from two or more games conflict due to them being the same, the name of the game should be placed in parenthesis for the associated articles, while the level of the game that is released first chronologically will keep its name as is (no game title in parenthesis after it.)
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| *If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.
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| | |
| ====Option 2: "(World Name) - (Level Code)" and "(Level Code) (Game Name)"====
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| This is a variation of the first option which incorporates itself with the old level article naming system to make it more flexible to some situations especially for tackling commonly-searched terms like "World 1-1". This is how it will go:
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| | |
| *Levels that use generic numbering and are from a named world will be named "(World Name) - Level X-X". Ex. [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)]] becomes "Merry Mini-Land - Level 4-mm".
| |
| **If two worlds from different games happen to share names, the newer game's level page can have the newer game's title in parenthesis. For example, hypothetically speaking, we get two worlds named "MarioWiki Land" in two games. It can go like this "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2" for Game A, and "MarioWiki Land - Level 2-2 (Game B)" for Game B. To my knowledge, something like this has not occurred in any official games and upcoming content.
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| **Depending on how the game may call the level code, it can be formatted differently, whether it would be "Stage X-X", "Area X-X", or even simply "X-X".
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| **For redirects, the original names of the articles may serve as redirects, however this may be handled differently depending on certain circumstances (shifting of world number for various worlds in the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' remake, for example).
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| *Levels that use generic numbering and are from worlds with no names will follow this format: "World X-X ('Game Name')". Examples of such are [[World 1-1 (Super Mario Bros.)]] and [[World 18-1]]. The game name is used to differentiate the level from other games featuring a level with the same name, as per usual.
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| *Levels with names are already kept as is.
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| *If a case of level codes being updated occurs due to addition of new worlds (eg. Merry Mini-Land and Slippery Summit), the reissue's new level numbering should take priority over the old one.
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| I believe that identifying generically-named levels with numbered coding from each other should be made easier, especially if we need to look up information quickly for a friend struggling to find a level or its information. Right now, the current method of using game titles in parentheses makes it hard for such information to be easily looked up, and it has become more of an issue when we tried to fix up the level number coding and the articles for the new levels when documenting the Switch remake of ''[[Mario vs. Donkey Kong (Nintendo Switch)|Mario vs. Donkey Kong]]''. I hope this proposal serves to change this for the foreseeable future.
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| '''Proposer''': {{User|EleCyon}}<br>
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| '''Deadline''': April 29, 2024, 23:59 GMT
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| ====Option 1====
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| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Secondary choice.
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| ====Option 2====
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| #{{User|EleCyon}} - First choice, per proposal.
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| #{{User|Super Mario RPG}} - This could help solve some level naming discrepancies.
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| ====Keep as is====
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| #{{User|Hewer}} I don't really get why the problem of a few worlds in Mario vs. Donkey Kong getting their numbers changed warrants a massive change to how we name levels that forgoes our usual naming and identifier rules for no apparent reason. There was never a level called "Super Mario Bros. - World 1-1", it's just known as "World 1-1". I'd compare this to the case of Mario Kart tracks: for example, we have [[Wii Rainbow Road]], but [[Rainbow Road (Mario Kart: Double Dash!!)]]. We ''could'' rename the latter "GCN Rainbow Road" to be more neat and consistent, but it's never been officially called that, so we don't. I'd rather use that same logic and stick to official naming instead of enforcing our own version. And I don't see why only newer games should get identifiers for their titles - I feel like having both get identifiers, similar to the current system where identifier-less [[World 1-1]] is a disambiguation, makes more sense.
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| #{{User|Jdtendo}} Per Hewer, changing our entire level naming system just for disambiguating some MVDK worlds is overkill. However, I could see the merits of using the world name as an identifier specifically for disambiguating worlds 4 and more of MVDK (e.g., [[Level 4-1 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Level 4-1 (Merry Mini-Land)]]) and only in that specific case.
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| #{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per Hewer. The ''MvDK (Switch)'' situation is overwhelmingly the exception, rather than the norm, so accounting for it on the levels for every single game that doesn't have this problem (so... ''basically every other Mario video game that has level articles'') is extremely overkill.
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| #{{User|JanMisali}} Per all. The proposal as written would be a lot of work for very little benefit, but implementing this for ''exclusively'' the relevant ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' stages would make those titles both less cluttered and more descriptive.
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| #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} per plexing
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| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. (please note that before MB64's vote, my vote was blank)
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| #{{User|YoYo}} per all.
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| #{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per FanOfYoshi
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| #{{user|Dine2017}} Per all.
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| #{{user|Sdman213}} Per all.
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| ====Comments====
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| Personally, I fail to see how this makes it any easier. With longer titles especially, the search dropdown's just gonna get cut off and you'll have a bunch of identical copies of the game title without being able to tell which is which (unless the functionality of it has been updated without me realizing). Also, I disagree with prioritizing remake over original with this. I'm not voting right now because I consider myself too tired to do so reliably, but those are my thoughts right now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| I'll point out that "(''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' for Nintendo Switch)" as an identifier is supported by [[MarioWiki:Naming]]: "If two different games share the same title but appear on different consoles and the identifier needs to distinguish between them, the game name and console are used in this format: ({game name} for {console}). For example, [[Beach Volleyball (Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games for Wii)|Beach Volleyball (''Mario & Sonic at the London 2012 Olympic Games'' for Wii)]]." And you can tell the difference from something where it's part of the actual title like ''Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS'' thanks to the placement of the italics. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 02:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| Given the problem is exclusively present in the MvDK levels, I feel like it makes more sense to simply use a format like [[Level 4-5 (Mario vs. Donkey Kong)|Spooky House-5]] and [[Level 4-mm (Mario vs. Donkey Kong for Nintendo Switch)|Merry Mini-Land-mm]] for specifically that game and its remake, and leave the other courses and levels alone. This seems at least like an acceptable choice, given that the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' and ''New Super Luigi U'' courses [[Stone-Eye Zone]] and [[Spike's Tumbling Desert]] are both being alternatively referred to as Layer-Cake Desert-1 in their respective articles; meaning that, if these NSMBU and NSLU courses hadn't gotten exclusive names, the wiki would've most likely went for the Layer-Cake Desert-1 format. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:19, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :This seems like the best solution to me. Relying solely on parentheses for this leads to, I believe, everything after world 4 needing them because the numbers desync. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 15:00, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
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| Jdtendo does make a good point, however. Using the world's name in parenthesis for the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' worlds might be a better idea to go than mass renaming all the worlds to match what we're going for in the proposal. I might consider this should the proposal not pass at all, especially as I'm about to start documenting Slippery Summit levels soon. --[[User:EleCyon|EleCyon]] ([[User talk:EleCyon|talk]]) 21:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| ==Miscellaneous== | | ==Miscellaneous== |
| ''None at the moment.'' | | ''None at the moment.'' |
