Talk:Snowy

To further clarify my edit, even if both would be correct, it makes much more sense to have Level and Flower Points with numbers, given that is how they are always represented. --™ The 'Shroom 19:34, 30 January 2016 (EST)

I understand. I've looked up how to write out when appropriate, and although there are a bunch of rules for this out there, many which can be contradictory, I think using numerical values to signify levels and points is a better idea than writing it out. Perhaps if it was referring to the number of characters, it would be more appropriate to write out the whole number. Ray Trace^(T|C) 19:34, 30 January 2016 (EST)

Yeah, I think rather than going by a hard rule (especially since there isn't just one), we should look at what we're talking about to know which is better. --™ The 'Shroom 19:42, 30 January 2016 (EST)

I've tended to only use numbers for stages, chapters and percentages while writing out everything else, and I've written out numbers under 100. Style guides have varying opinions on where the cut-off line should be, especially for more formal writing, so I've just gone with what makes sense to me. "Ninety-nine" is a lot simpler than "one hundred (and) ninety-nine", leading to my decision. I don't agree with using the numbers for points, though. It's mostly a nitpick, but seeing the number in that context instead of the word is jarring to me. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Of crushing big snowmen attacks

So it has come to my attention that the Snowman Doll item from Paper Mario is in fact another iteration of this move, just as an item, hence why both involve summoning an enormous snowman to smash enemies and deal ice damage. This also likely relates to the latter being replaced by Ice Storm in the next two games. Considering Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time had Bros. Items that acted as attacks and we merge them with their counterparts from other games (such as Green Shell, Red Shell, Bros. Flower, and Ice Flower), I think that Snowman Doll perhaps should be merged here. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 23:24, November 21, 2023 (EST)

I had assumed they were split due to being a move and an item, but since as you mention that isn't a good reason, I support the merge. Blinker (talk) 06:56, November 22, 2023 (EST)

We've merged a fair bit of assets from this game and Paper Mario, such as Chancellor, so I guess this one is a similar case. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 18:33, November 25, 2023 (EST)

It's not just Snowy, though; Mallow's Shocker and Star Rain are also shared with the Thunder Rage and Shooting Star items, respectively. LinkTheLefty (talk) 19:23, November 25, 2023 (EST)

Well I guess that torpedoes the replacement idea, but makes it more clear that the inspiration is indeed consistent. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:26, November 25, 2023 (EST)

Merge Snowman Doll here, and do the same with Mallow's other itemized attacks

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal.

Leave all split 0-3-1-10
See the above conversation. Three of Mallow's special attacks were turned into attack items for Paper Mario, as shown by the Japanese names (which carries over in certain other languages).

• Snowy here became Snowman Doll.
• Shocker became Thunder Rage.
• Star Rain became Shooting Star.

Aside from the lack of action command, they all do the same kind of damage, and other than the star one (big hoppy star to a bunch of small stars), the animation remains the same as well. It's pretty clear that these are intended as the same thing, even the star one; there's no way that three out of six special abilities from the same character would have direct counterparts in the followup by mere coincidence.
(Oddly enough, Thunderbolt and Thunder Bolt do have totally different language-of-origin names... but basically the same English name! Because of that and both being weaker counterparts to the other lightning attack, I'll be including them as an option too. Note that the amount of targets is switched for both attacks, likely due to the vastly different damage number systems between the games.)
That being said, with the TTYD remake coming up, all except Snowman Doll are slated to reappear (it was replaced with Ice Storm in the original), so I could see why perhaps someone may want to keep those separate.

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: December 10, 2023, 23:59 GMT

Merge Snowman Doll, Thunder Rage, and Shooting Star to respective Mallow attacks

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Boo you very much.
2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal.
3. Blinker (talk) Per proposal (might be worth waiting for the TTYD remake for Thunder Rage and Shooting Star though, because names).

Only merge Snowman Doll

1. LinkTheLefty (talk) While I'd normally say this is an "all or nothing" situation, the TTYD remake gives me pause on including the above, and I'd have to think about it if Thunderbolt / Thunder Bolt counts. I most align with this for now; we can revisit the others in another proposal afterward.

Do nothing

1. Camwoodstock (talk) This feels a lot like a "wait for the TTYD remake" situation at best. For one, the most-recent-name that would take priority for the article could literally shift in just a few months, leaving these articles in a very awkward spot; there's no telling how they plan to handle item names in it, and whether they'd be kept 100% intact or receive a second pass on the translation front. Snowman Dolls in particular are very confusing, because of Ice Storms being in the TTYD remake; what, are we going to merge this article to Snowman Doll, and then just rename it back to Snowy because Snowman Dolls aren't in the TTYD remake, so Snowy will be the newest name? Adding to this the fact items with similar effects to attacks/items in SMRPG are allowed to remain split if they have a different enough use to them--stuff like how Sleepy Sheep is split from Sleepy Bomb--and we feel like merging these items with the SMRPG moves that they were based on only complicates things more than they simplifies them. This is not a case like Maple Syrup where the analogues are clear-cut and hold basically the exact same gameplay effect of "slightly above average FP recovery item"; one is a single-use item you buy and spend, and one is a move that a character learns and can perform with sufficient FP.
2. FanOfYoshi (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
3. PrincessPeachFan (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
4. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
6. Tails777 (talk) Per Camwoodstock
7. Sdman213 (talk) Per all.
8. Mario (talk) I was on the fence about it, but I'm going to err on caution and practicality for a minor subject and leave split.
9. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
10. Okapii (talk) Per all.

Comments

We sincerely apologize if our vote is a little meandering or scatterbrained--tonight has been a thing for us. We will be glad to clarify our stance later if someone's confused by it. Just, y'know... Not now, obviously. (also, honestly, you can probably make a more compelling argument for merging the two sleep items than these things in our opinion. we'd make that proposal ourselves, but, right now? at 1AM no less? no thanks! ;P) ~Camwoodstock (talk) 00:53, November 26, 2023 (EST)

What about Fire Flower between the Paper Mario games, Partners in Time, and Bowser's Inside Story? It varies between a consumable attack item and a point-based attack depending on the game, and no one's advocating they be split. Same goes for the other Bros. Items I mentioned in the above discussion. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:05, November 26, 2023 (EST)

We didn't notice the Bros Items mentioned, our apologies. It was kind of a blip in our mind, but it was both 1AM and also our brain was a fried egg, so there was no way in hey we were going to sound cognitive bringing those up. Looking at those, pretty much all the Bros Items that end up having their articles merged are the five of them that are items that already appear outside the RPGs--Green and Red Shells, Fire and Ice Flowers (the latter of which, we'd like to note, debuted in PiT before hitting it big with Super Mario Galaxy and New Super Mario Bros. Wii), and then there's Trampoline. We don't feel like anyone's asking those to be split just because they're much more generic items that, across the franchise, have held more-or-less unique roles depending on the spinoff; nobody's campaigning to split Green Shells in the platformers from Green Shells in Mario Kart, because they happen to be just the same fundamental item in all of these appearances... Notice the loaded language--fundamental item, and as we've been pointing out, the SMRPG articles are spells a character casts with effects that, while their payload is similar to things that'd later become items in the Paper Mario series, there's a pretty substantial gameplay difference between a spell cast from a mana equivalent and something you pull out of your bag. and to be blunt here, bros. items are the result of them basically turning your mana system into your inventory system anyways, so mentioning them feels like a moot point--the semantics of turning an item into another item are way too goofy, even for us. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 11:58, November 26, 2023 (EST)

But turning mana into an attack item that is instantly used is little different from just turning it into an attack, no? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 12:32, November 26, 2023 (EST)

I know I'm probably taking this way too literally, but turning character abilities into consumable items is exactly what Sticker Star and Color Splash did. Blinker (talk) 12:45, November 26, 2023 (EST)

I don't really buy those Bros item examples. Are there other more confined RPG assets that were merged? Say, the Wilt Shroom (talk page)? Do any of you agree with the merge? It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 13:42, November 26, 2023 (EST)

I can agree to merging the Wilt Shroom and Dried Shroom under the same argument Camwoodstock made with Maple Syrup. The usage of these attack items and Mallow's special moves are too different for me to be comfortable with merging. SolemnStormcloud (talk) 14:25, November 26, 2023 (EST)

...we forgot entirely about the Wilt Shroom. In retrospect, we 100% would've voted to merge those nowadays... Had they not been merged already, of course. ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:09, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Your honor, mentioning Sticker Star legally counts as mental torture, which we believe is illegal. We mean, Stickers are literally consumable-items-as-moves, but looking at them, very few of those are merged to another pre-existing article, mostly because Sticker Star just kind of operates on its own entire system detached from anything else. Basically the only ones we could find at a cursory skim that are merged when they are not stock items (so like, no Mushrooms, no Hammers, nothin') and not characters (sorry not sorry, Kersti.) are the Jump (merged with Boots) and Tail (take a guess). ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:09, November 26, 2023 (EST)

I mostly meant the jump, but I wasn't aware that it was split like that. That said, the Sticker Star jump is also covered in the Jump article... Very odd. Blinker (talk) 16:50, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Honestly, the odd splitting of the RPG jumps across two pages is making me more convinced that splitting moves on an item/not-item basis is a bad idea. Blinker (talk) 17:57, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Just FYI, if it was just Snowy, I'd almost say this may be a pure coincidence. The Japanese name is derived from a children's song, so it could be seen as a shared inspiration. (And I know I added it back in 2015, but in retrospect, Heavy Snow isn't a good translation since it sounds like it came from a meteorologist; Snowy is a great approximation in my opinion.) It's the other two spells that push it for me as being an intentional throwback. And @Camwoodstock: I think the merged title would be Snowy since remakes are generally included as the "most recent name," exceptions being the likes of Bowser's Keep because of just how much more common Bowser's Castle is. LinkTheLefty (talk) 08:35, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Yeah...no. This isn't like mistranslations like "Goomstar Palace" in TTYD or Moon Clefts like in SPM. It's pretty clear that the move and item are two separate things and the reason why no one's advocating that the Fire Flowers because there is no real reason to. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 10:42, November 26, 2023 (EST)

What's "pretty clear" is they are the same. Why else would so many spells from a single character have item counterparts in the follow-up? It can't be coincidence. Merging them is the most consistent with Fire Flower, etc. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:34, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Not to be pedantic, but the Fireball attacks in Super Mario RPG are not, in fact, merged with Fire Flower--those just go directly to Fireball. Which is good, because that's the name they used in-game for the spell. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 16:09, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Well yes, because there, the fireball is different from the flower. In Paper Mario, though, you use a snowman, and the attack is also the snowman, it just gets big and 3D. That's different. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:16, November 26, 2023 (EST)

Now that I think about, how come we can have pages that cover both characters and items (Kersti, the Color Splash enemy cards, Bowser's Chain Chomp weapon), but having a page cover both an attack move and an attack item based on said move is where the line is drawn? Blinker (talk) 12:15, November 27, 2023 (EST)

is kersti really anything more than a plot item that has written dialogue? To be honest, the way those articles are formatted is fairly strange now that you mention it... Kersti's use as an item is only kind of mentioned in her "Powers and Abilities" section without an image of her as an actual sticker, the enemy cards from Color Splash seem to be formatted kind of like the way we format Catch Cards from Super Paper Mario (which are uh. an entirely different mechanic, that's basically the game's bestiary), and we're gonna be real here... We don't know what is up with the Chain Chomp weapon. Fake Chomp? Page to itself. Spiked Chomp? Page to itself. The base one? Seems to be conjoined to the base Chain Chomp article, with zero listed stats anywhere, not even the statistics page for all RPG Chain Chomps. Seeing as there was a proposal awhile back to split RPG equipment if memory serves, it seems like there might've been plans to split the Chain Chomp article into Chain Chomp (the ordinary one, the one we have now) and Chain Chomp (Super Mario RPG), buuut that never quite came to be, and now we're stuck here. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:32, November 27, 2023 (EST)

Personally, I'd rather not split these things based on role, but I guess these sort of organization decisions are a matter of preference. That said, that lack of information is indeed not ideal... Blinker (talk) 13:07, November 27, 2023 (EST)