Why are they not a mini-boss? You olny enconter them 1 time, I think. (I lost this game and this is what i remimber from it)
The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rwarsrwars (talk).
- They are standard enemies. Also sign your comments with ~~~ Mario & Luigi
Merge with Boomerang BroEdit
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This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit any of the sections in the proposal. If you wish to discuss the article, do so in a new header below the proposal. |
cancelled by proposer
It seems these were separated because they look fairly different from the standard appearance of Boomerang Bros., and the names are not exact in every language. For one thing, the original Mario & Luigi spritework noticeably deviated a bit from the norm, so I don't think the thinner, sunglasses-wearing Boomerang Bros. should be separated on that merit (plus, saying that they are Beanish relatives based on the leaves on their helmets is bordering on speculation). Second, there are already plenty of existing articles where alternate foreign names are simply treated as "names in other languages" and noted as being specific to a particular title, so the differing French and Italian names can be identified in parenthesis (as the Spanish names already do in the main article).
Proposer: LinkTheLefty (talk)
Deadline: April 9, 2015, 23:59 GMT.
SupportEdit
- LinkTheLefty (talk) Per proposal.
- Binarystep (talk) It's pretty obvious it's just a redesign, M&L:SS enemies acted pretty weird compared to their behavior in the main series/other M&L games (see: Cheep Cheeps that grow spikes if jumped on, Dry Bones suddenly being on all fours again, Hammer Bros looking more like Sledge Bros, some Piranha Plants being blue, Spinies being green).
OpposeEdit
- Walkazo (talk) - Per my arguments for splitting the page in the first place and my reasons for opposing the first TPP that tried to merge them back (the next section of that talk page). Having a plant growing out of their heads is a fairly significant departure from normal Boomerang Bros: it's more speculative to say it's "just a helmet" when bare-headed species like Troopeas and Lakipeas also have plants growing out of their heads as their main departures from the classic enemies. That's not the only difference anyway: even the basic build of the species is in direct opposition to M&L:SS's stocky depiction of Hammer Bros., which are typically identical to Boomerang Bros in their shared appearances save for shell colour and weapon choice, yet look nothing like these guys. I don't know why they weren't renamed in English or Japanese, but they do have different names in Spanish, French and Italian, and those PAL translators have the right idea because these guys are just as much separate, Beanish counterparts to the classic Koopa species as the universally renamed enemies.
- Time Turner (talk) I may have been more inclined to agree if there wasn't a clear standard for what a "normal" Boomerang Bro looks like, but Dream Team clearly establishes that this (i.e. the design that matches every other appearance of the Bro) is what a Boomerang Bro usually looks like in the M&L universe. They have the same name, but different appearances and stats (oh hey, sounds familiar), and that's why I support keeping the articles split.
- Andymii (talk) In other languages, these Boomerang Bros. have different names, indicating they are very different characters from the normal Boomerang Bro. They appear very different as well. Per Walkazo.
- LudwigVon (talk) Per all.
- Viper26 (talk) This one looks different than the normal Boomerang Bro.
- Mario (talk) I'd like to add that the occurrence of these enemies are more support that they're different. Superstar Saga's Hammer Bros. occur in Bowser's Castle alongside Magikoopa and Boo; it's known that Hammer Bros. are from the Koopa Troopa, and considering their similar appearances, it would be safe to assume that they're the same Hammer Bros. These Boomerang Bros. occur in Gwahahar Lagoon, in the BeanBean kingdom, where a lot of enemies enemies are Beanish variants of Mario enemies (except for Bob-omb, maybe Goomdiver, Cheep-Cheep, Spiny, and Rex, but they look like their original variants anyway). I don't see a strong reason to split this either way.
- Boo4761 (talk) Per all, especially Vipey and Walkazo.
- Burningdragon25 (talk) This stays so, that is a per all!
CommentsEdit
I think this is somewhat of a fringe case, but despite the multiple languages, this seems more like an early (non-English) instance of NoE vs. NoA, and the wiki is otherwise openly slanted towards the latter. When you get down to it, it's basically a Boomerang Bro and is already technically named as such in most versions* (if we count cartridge production [EU territory] over in-game localizations), just redesigned to blend in the Beanbean theme and with no obvious differences between the two outside of outward appearance. The Gritty Goomba and Dry Bones examples listed above have two different variants stemming from the same game, so it's not quite the same thing that's being proposed here. Using the Boomerang Bro enemy from another game in the same sub-series also doesn't quite work out (Pokey, for instance, has mild to moderately different stats in every Paper Mario game) - up to that point, Boomerang Bro only had a major appearance in SMB3, and the usual enemy designs only somewhat recently started becoming a whole lot more standardized for modern titles around the time of NSMB. It makes more sense to split Isle Delfino Yoshis from the Yoshi species because despite identical appearance, they at least have observably different behavior. LinkTheLefty (talk) 18:39, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
- The wiki only goes with NA over PAL when it comes to English article names and that's only because most of the readers and editors are from North America and we want to minimize the number of people inconvenienced by unfamiliar names, and even more importantly, to avoid losing precious search traffic to Wikipedia or Wikias using the more popular names. In all other respects, they're on equal footing, and this isn't a matter of which English name to use, so what or how many regions called them one thing or another doesn't matter: what matters is presenting the material that makes the most logical sense given all the facts. No other enemy was given plant themes in order to fit in without also being given a name change: the Hammer Bros that appear in the same game certainly weren't Beanified. Perhaps the English and Japanese namers forgot that "Boomerang Bro." was already a thing (due to it being an old one-off enemy at the time) and merely thought the name was enough of a departure from the normal Hammer Bros. like how the un-legumey "Limbo Bro", "Chomp Bro" and "Yo Bro" names were perfectly unique for the other three Beanish Hammer Bros. Of course, we'll never know the real reason why for sure, but we don't have to know or even speculate about it, because the enemy's appearance and the context of all the other Beanish Koopas is more than enough cold hard facts to go on. - Walkazo 19:08, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
- I've got to admit, I hadn't considered that the possibility of the reason for the different style being lack of research on the part of the design team... then again, I'm not sure that's too likely an explanation since Tanoombas also exist and are obviously a reference to SMB3 (or they could've stopped playing after the first level or something)... Okay, so looking at the subject more closely, they can appear alongside red Elite Troopeas, and have a similar palette as purple overworld Troopeas. Limbo Bros., who don't appear in the same areas, also share the same shell color, so that can support the "they're Beanbean cousins" hypothesis... However, on the flip side, many other entirely unrelated enemies also share overall similar palettes as these shell colors, so it could just as easily be coincidence as a result of reusing resources. It's also impossible to tell from the sprites alone if the leaves are part of the uniform or their head like Troopeas and apparently the tribal-looking Limbo Bro, but I'm assuming it's not actually growing out of their skull given the helmets are visibly taller than a Koopa's usual head shape (that, and it invites questions about the color-coded flags sticking on the top of the Border Bros.). LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:55, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
- SMB3's Tanooki stuff was a lot more major (due to their preexisting prominence in Japanese culture) than the Boomerang Bros, so I have no trouble believing they could have known about one and not the other. I doubt they'd colour all their enemies bean purple just to save on "resources" - it's clearly a conscious thematic decision across the game. What's more interesting is that if your examples there, the lone Koopa, the non-Beanish Magikoopa, is exclusively found in Bowser's Castle (same as the regular Hammer Bros - not counting the Border Bros, which quite frankly don't look or act like regular Hammer Bros either, even disregarding the head flag). As for the head leaf debate, Army Hammer Bro's horns poke out of his helmet, so who's to say the Boomerang Bros. can't have a similar hole for their sprout (or like how countless fictional and real people pull ponytails through the backs of baseball caps, etc.), and the Limbo Bros.'s sprout could be growing out under and around its helmet: again, seeing as all the non-headgear-wearing Koopas are shown to have sprouts, the more straightforward interpretation is that the Bros do too. - Walkazo 22:18, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
- I'll accept that the purple shade could very well be an intentional part of the bean theme (which would also explain why these enemies are generally spread apart). However, you mentioned that the European translators had the right idea when they renamed this enemy. I think it's worth pointing out that Boomerang Bro happens to be one of the longer names in the game (even when shortened from "Brother", which they started doing consistently of the RPGs), so they may not have had much of a choice. Take a look at the German version and you'll see a similar abbreviation. This is despite the fact that it looks like the full German name could've fit, so the length of the text box seems to be a graphical aesthetic (around fifteen characters seems to be the limit). It's possible that the other language teams had to get creative to handle shorter names that would make sense and be somewhat recognizable (the Italian name of a Boomerang Bro is listed as "Boomerang Bro." in the main article, but since someone else mentioned that the Italian SMB3 booklet had translations along English ones in parenthesis, I don't think this was always the case). LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:10, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- Again, like the "did they even know about the original enemy" stuff, we have no way of knowing if that's the case, and grasping at straws and speculating makes for a pretty flimsy case for splitting the page, while the "keep them merged" side is also supported by numerous observations beyond the translated names. - Walkazo 11:17, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- I think the evidence for the real possibility of space limitations ought not be dismissed just because "there's no way of knowing". Here's another example - the Italian Parabeanie omits two letters, so looking at that and the German Hammer Bro name makes it clear that fitting all the localizations on one cartridge was on their mind. And thinking about it, this might also explain Goby over Cheep Cheep - a series-standard staple that I'd be surprised if Woolsey was completely unaware of (and this is from a translator well-known for cutting various percentages of Japanese text only for the mere space of an English translation). Or even (although this is a non-RPG example) take a look at the Super Princess Peach Glossary, which abused a lot of abbreviations despite the scrolling entries certainly looking like the full names would fit on the player's end. I'm sure there are other examples I'm not thinking of off the top of my head... Now, does this prove that the M&L translators definitely knew of the classic enemies and without reasonable doubt had to shorten the names? Absolutely not, this is just a hypothetical situation. Having said that, this is shown to be an underlying, recurring technical issue that has nothing to do with a localizer's subjective tastes making it into the final product, and we can observe that NoE had to conserve character space to a certain amount. Even supposing the (not entirely unfounded and also quite possibly real) idea that they were unaware of the classic enemy, the original SMB3 names wouldn't have converted nicely as-is to the M&L battle text box. For that, I can't consider the name aspect in this particular instance to be an effective point. You're right that the designs are obviously different, but the fact of the matter is that the designs weren't constant yet. If the main deciding observation is the leaf that seems to be growing out of their head, then Spike Top from SMW should similarly be split due to their additional appendages, or Fire Mario (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins) due to the feather. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:07, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- The translated name is only part of the merge argument anyway: the main things are the appearance and the otherwise consistent renaming of Beanified species. We've used our discretion to split other things even without any versions giving them different names, although having different names in one region or another certainly make it easier to justify most of the time (while on the flip side, names shared by species pairs in one language or another can be used to help merge pages - it all depends on the specific situation). Anyway, I still stand by my original "they knew what they were doing" hypothesis, but it doesn't matter either way why it's like that: we have the ability to think for ourselves on these matters in order to present the info the best way we can, and I'm not backing down on my stance that they're physically different enough to keep split. As for those other cases, they can be decided on with other TPPs if people believe it'll serve the wiki and its readers better to split the info. - Walkazo 15:57, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- When it comes to the design itself, it all comes down to opinion at that point... Comparing the "Mushroom Kingdom/Dark Land" and "Beanbean" varieties, personally, if someone moves away, dresses differently (w/sunglasses), changes weight, and, yes, even has a plant seeded on their head, they're still the same person. Boomerang Bro may be an enemy species rather than a single character, so that line of logic may not completely conform to everyone's viewpoint, but lately it seems we're faced the question of with how different is different enough. Frankly, disregarding the themes and theories, I don't see these as different enough... But that's me. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:40, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- Known individuals going into costume or getting implanted with temporary mind-control sprouts aren't the same as a group of enemies for which the plants are always part of their bodies (and in some cases, individuals do get multiple articles for different alter-egos, forms or depictions if it's decided that that's a better way to present the information). A closer comparison (which is actually in my favour) would be how we have a separate article for the mind-controlled Cragnons as a whole, but that's more of a Power-Up situation than a species (and again, powered-up forms do get separate pages so why is "Super Mario" even being used as a counterargument for splitting?). Locations is also awkward to compare with seeing as pretty much every Mario game rearranges the map and the alternative to rolling with the changes would be to have countless dozens of pages for every new version of Bowser's Castle or the Mushroom Kingdom that we see, which would be excessive (but as always, in some cases we do divide locations up by appearance; namely, for numbered platformer levels/worlds, Mario Kart racecourses and other spinoff stages/courts/etc. when appropriate - the idea being to maximize search traffic and ease of use by eschewing large, cluttered catch-all pages for many smaller, more focused ones, and this general wiki philosophy applies to subjects other than locations as well). The "bad" sunglasses-wearing Koopa Troopas admittedly blur the line between distinct forms and unified species, and I'm pretty sure split discussions have happened sometime, somewhere around here (and probably will again), but as always, it's case-by-case so what works for that doesn't necessarily work for this. - Walkazo 23:37, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- When it comes to the design itself, it all comes down to opinion at that point... Comparing the "Mushroom Kingdom/Dark Land" and "Beanbean" varieties, personally, if someone moves away, dresses differently (w/sunglasses), changes weight, and, yes, even has a plant seeded on their head, they're still the same person. Boomerang Bro may be an enemy species rather than a single character, so that line of logic may not completely conform to everyone's viewpoint, but lately it seems we're faced the question of with how different is different enough. Frankly, disregarding the themes and theories, I don't see these as different enough... But that's me. LinkTheLefty (talk) 22:40, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- The translated name is only part of the merge argument anyway: the main things are the appearance and the otherwise consistent renaming of Beanified species. We've used our discretion to split other things even without any versions giving them different names, although having different names in one region or another certainly make it easier to justify most of the time (while on the flip side, names shared by species pairs in one language or another can be used to help merge pages - it all depends on the specific situation). Anyway, I still stand by my original "they knew what they were doing" hypothesis, but it doesn't matter either way why it's like that: we have the ability to think for ourselves on these matters in order to present the info the best way we can, and I'm not backing down on my stance that they're physically different enough to keep split. As for those other cases, they can be decided on with other TPPs if people believe it'll serve the wiki and its readers better to split the info. - Walkazo 15:57, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- I think the evidence for the real possibility of space limitations ought not be dismissed just because "there's no way of knowing". Here's another example - the Italian Parabeanie omits two letters, so looking at that and the German Hammer Bro name makes it clear that fitting all the localizations on one cartridge was on their mind. And thinking about it, this might also explain Goby over Cheep Cheep - a series-standard staple that I'd be surprised if Woolsey was completely unaware of (and this is from a translator well-known for cutting various percentages of Japanese text only for the mere space of an English translation). Or even (although this is a non-RPG example) take a look at the Super Princess Peach Glossary, which abused a lot of abbreviations despite the scrolling entries certainly looking like the full names would fit on the player's end. I'm sure there are other examples I'm not thinking of off the top of my head... Now, does this prove that the M&L translators definitely knew of the classic enemies and without reasonable doubt had to shorten the names? Absolutely not, this is just a hypothetical situation. Having said that, this is shown to be an underlying, recurring technical issue that has nothing to do with a localizer's subjective tastes making it into the final product, and we can observe that NoE had to conserve character space to a certain amount. Even supposing the (not entirely unfounded and also quite possibly real) idea that they were unaware of the classic enemy, the original SMB3 names wouldn't have converted nicely as-is to the M&L battle text box. For that, I can't consider the name aspect in this particular instance to be an effective point. You're right that the designs are obviously different, but the fact of the matter is that the designs weren't constant yet. If the main deciding observation is the leaf that seems to be growing out of their head, then Spike Top from SMW should similarly be split due to their additional appendages, or Fire Mario (Super Mario Land 2: 6 Golden Coins) due to the feather. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:07, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- Again, like the "did they even know about the original enemy" stuff, we have no way of knowing if that's the case, and grasping at straws and speculating makes for a pretty flimsy case for splitting the page, while the "keep them merged" side is also supported by numerous observations beyond the translated names. - Walkazo 11:17, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- I'll accept that the purple shade could very well be an intentional part of the bean theme (which would also explain why these enemies are generally spread apart). However, you mentioned that the European translators had the right idea when they renamed this enemy. I think it's worth pointing out that Boomerang Bro happens to be one of the longer names in the game (even when shortened from "Brother", which they started doing consistently of the RPGs), so they may not have had much of a choice. Take a look at the German version and you'll see a similar abbreviation. This is despite the fact that it looks like the full German name could've fit, so the length of the text box seems to be a graphical aesthetic (around fifteen characters seems to be the limit). It's possible that the other language teams had to get creative to handle shorter names that would make sense and be somewhat recognizable (the Italian name of a Boomerang Bro is listed as "Boomerang Bro." in the main article, but since someone else mentioned that the Italian SMB3 booklet had translations along English ones in parenthesis, I don't think this was always the case). LinkTheLefty (talk) 04:10, 27 March 2015 (EDT)
- SMB3's Tanooki stuff was a lot more major (due to their preexisting prominence in Japanese culture) than the Boomerang Bros, so I have no trouble believing they could have known about one and not the other. I doubt they'd colour all their enemies bean purple just to save on "resources" - it's clearly a conscious thematic decision across the game. What's more interesting is that if your examples there, the lone Koopa, the non-Beanish Magikoopa, is exclusively found in Bowser's Castle (same as the regular Hammer Bros - not counting the Border Bros, which quite frankly don't look or act like regular Hammer Bros either, even disregarding the head flag). As for the head leaf debate, Army Hammer Bro's horns poke out of his helmet, so who's to say the Boomerang Bros. can't have a similar hole for their sprout (or like how countless fictional and real people pull ponytails through the backs of baseball caps, etc.), and the Limbo Bros.'s sprout could be growing out under and around its helmet: again, seeing as all the non-headgear-wearing Koopas are shown to have sprouts, the more straightforward interpretation is that the Bros do too. - Walkazo 22:18, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
- I've got to admit, I hadn't considered that the possibility of the reason for the different style being lack of research on the part of the design team... then again, I'm not sure that's too likely an explanation since Tanoombas also exist and are obviously a reference to SMB3 (or they could've stopped playing after the first level or something)... Okay, so looking at the subject more closely, they can appear alongside red Elite Troopeas, and have a similar palette as purple overworld Troopeas. Limbo Bros., who don't appear in the same areas, also share the same shell color, so that can support the "they're Beanbean cousins" hypothesis... However, on the flip side, many other entirely unrelated enemies also share overall similar palettes as these shell colors, so it could just as easily be coincidence as a result of reusing resources. It's also impossible to tell from the sprites alone if the leaves are part of the uniform or their head like Troopeas and apparently the tribal-looking Limbo Bro, but I'm assuming it's not actually growing out of their skull given the helmets are visibly taller than a Koopa's usual head shape (that, and it invites questions about the color-coded flags sticking on the top of the Border Bros.). LinkTheLefty (talk) 20:55, 26 March 2015 (EDT)
Move to Beanerang BroEdit
That seems to be their new name in Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga + Bowser's Minions, as shown in this Wario Forums post.
So if anyone can rename the page and maybe change every reference to Boomerang Bro here, that'd be great!
Cheat-master30 (talk) 19:21, 22 September 2017 (GMT)
- Agree with you all the way. Making changes in a few seconds. – Owencrazyboy9 (talk) 14:25, 22 September 2017 (EDT)
- The game isn't out yet.
15:04, 22 September 2017 (EDT)
- Aw crabapples, policy. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 15:06, 22 September 2017 (EDT)
- The game isn't out yet.