Talk:Classic course

(First topic)

Back in the Mario Kart DS and Mario Kart Wii era there likely was the idea that retro course would have stayed as the name of the old courses and that they would have stayed in the same cups, making the Extra courses of Mario Kart: Super Circuit a separate thing - chronologically they were separated by Mario Kart: Double Dash!! not featuring them, after all. Nowadays though, I think it's indeed those Extra courses which were the first case of old courses in a Mario Kart game. Now that it's clear that the naming and cups they are featured in aren't that important, I think it's time to merge those courses back here, at least as a small section that then can contain a link at the Extra Cups' page. What do you think?--Mister Wu (talk) 18:45, January 30, 2021 (EST)

I say just merge Extra Cup here entirely. The only real differences are that the cups used for old courses changed from "Extra X" to the standard "Shell, Banana, Leaf, Lightning" setup and that Super Circuit simply had the entire track list from SMK instead of representing every past game as has been the case from DS onward. I don't think latter difference really matters much since MKSC was only the third game in the series, and being a 2D game, they obviously couldn't use MK64 tracks. The former difference is superfluous at best, especially with classic courses appearing in the MK8 DLC cups alongside new ones, which breaks the established pattern anyway. 18:57, January 30, 2021 (EST)

Merge Extra Cup with this article

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

merge 9-0
See the above comments. To sum up, the term for retro/classic/whatever tracks has never been consistent, so there is no real reason to consider the "extra" tracks from Super Circuit a separate thing anymore, and the cup names in Super Circuit being different from the norm means nothing, since MK8's DLC cups and Tour already break the pattern.

Proposer: 7feetunder (talk)
Deadline: March 18, 2021, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. 7feetunder (talk) Per proposal.
2. Bazooka Mario (talk) Yes, merge and redirect.
3. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, I didn't even know these were separate when they shouldn't be.
4. Keyblade Master (talk) Must be the case of just a past name like with certain enemies in the franchise.
5. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all.
6. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per proposal.
7. Mister Wu (talk) Fully agreed - now that the old courses have a different name and are featured in different cups I don't see any point in not featuring the Extra Cups of Mario Kart: Super Circuit that effectively introduced them.
8. bwburke94 (talk) Per all.
9. Duckfan77 (talk) Per all.

"Wii U" prefix

The video used as reference for the Wii U courses' prefix appears to be a fan-made one. Not only it wasn't uploaded on an official Nintendo channel, but translating the video description reveals that it says "it is fiction". The audio is from the original trailer and the track name here appears to be edited from DS Mario Circuit's to have "WiiU" as the prefix and Mario Kart 8's game cover (which in the video is a bit stretched and darker compared to the rest of the covers). 1468z (talk) 04:53, March 4, 2023 (EST)

Ah, dang. I've been fooled. We can leave all the Wii U prefix redirects I just made, right? Ahemtoday (talk) 10:14, March 4, 2023 (EST)

Well, the proposal to make the rest of the redirect articles said to exclude the Wii U courses, so I don't believe so (but if anyone believes otherwise, they can revert the deletion tags I put on all of those). User:Somethingone/sig 11:46, March 4, 2023 (EST)

I mean, in order to get through our redirect policy, a redirect just has to be neither silly nor ambiguous. "Wii U" is a perfectly reasonable prefix, and "Wii U Mario Circuit" could only refer to one course, so I think the redirects are justified. Ahemtoday (talk) 12:35, March 4, 2023 (EST)

Just what is the definition of a "classic course" anyway?

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By which I mean to ask, is it an official term or a conjectural one, and what defines it? The start of this article suggests that it is an official term, with sources including the Nintendo Music "Classic Courses" playlists. The Mario Kart 8 Deluxe "Classic Courses" playlist, however, does not include the themes for Ninja Hideaway, Merry Mountain, or Piranha Plant Cove, which are listed as classic courses in this article. It is also written here that "classic courses are distinguished by a prefix in their names indicating the game they originate from", which does not apply here. What makes them "classic courses" then?

If it's the fact that they're returning after first having appeared in another game, shouldn't Sky-High Sundae, Yoshi's Island, and Squeaky Clean Sprint also be defined as classic courses in Mario Kart Tour? They are supposedly "considered a new course in both Mario Kart 8 Deluxe and Mario Kart Tour", but what exactly determined that? It's not the lack of a prefix, as I've established, so is it the fact they were marketed as "new"? Shouldn't that mean that N64 Mario Raceway, GBA Luigi Raceway and GCN Waluigi Stadium aren't classic courses either? That also begs the question of how much what marketing says matters compared to what the games say. Marketing for 8 Deluxe inconsistently gives the three returning "non-cities" a prefix, sure, however the game itself doesn't distinguish them from new courses in any way. On the flip side, both the marketing for Mario Kart Tour and in-game announcements mentioned that courses like Squeaky Clean Sprint were already in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe. Plus, with our stance on Nintendo Music being that it is the most credible source for track names, how come its classification of classic courses is disregarded? To get ahead of the potential counterargument that DS Wario Stadium not being included should mean that it also isn't a classic course, I will mention that the playlist does not include any additional variations of each course theme, which makes it understandable as to why they only included DS Waluigi Pinball.

You could also come from the angle that they are internally labeled as "New" in Mario Kart Tour, but does that actually matter when every Mario Kart 8 Deluxe battle course is internally labeled as Wii U course while every Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - Booster Course Pass course is internally labeled as a Nintendo Switch course? In general conversation it's also sometimes said to be a matter of a supposed "intention", yet our coverage doesn't currently consider it to be conjectural. Prior to 2023, Mario Kart Tour had consistently released a single "non-city" track per year, and yet once the Booster Course Pass (which made a point of having one "non-city" course in every wave) entered the picture, we suddenly received four of them in a single year. Aside from Yoshi's Island, the earliest traces of all three of those courses were in object references (most of which were labeled with "test") added to the game in early 2022, in the early days of the Booster Course Pass. Could the perceived intention not then be that Piranha Plant Cove was always created specifically to be added to the Booster Course Pass? After all, is it not highly likely that Piranha Plant Cove and Wii Rainbow Road were added to Mario Kart Tour in early 2023 specifically so that they'd return not long after Wave 6 of the Booster Course Pass released, thanks to the advent of looping tours? I will again get ahead of the potential counterargument about how Piranha Plant Pipeline might go against this logic by mentioning the leaked prefixes which suggest that there were originally two additional prefix-less courses. Don't get me wrong though, I'm not trying to argue that we should label them as new courses for Mario Kart 8 Deluxe (because they factually aren't), but moreso that "classic course" isn't necessarily just the opposite of "new course". If we are basing this purely on lexical semantics, then something like Athens Dash being considered "classic" after less than three months doesn't make much sense either.

So I ask again, what is a "classic course"? If we consider it to be an official term, why are we not using official classifications? If it's a conjectural term, why are we not treating it that way? I want to understand what the justification is for how we're handling the topic before coming up with any potential proposals to correct it. Polley001 (talk) 09:33, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

There's four sources for the name after the third word of the article. The Dab Master 09:35, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

I know, I mention this two sentences in... Polley001 (talk) 09:48, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

Then why are you asking if it's conjectural? It's obviously not. Also, the tweet you linked to was referring to the courses' debuts in Mario Kart Tour, not the series as a whole. The Dab Master 10:47, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

I'm not literally asking whether "classic courses" is an official term Nintendo has used or not, I'm pointing out how our coverage of the topic is actually conjectural in nature. As for the tweet, let me ask you something. In the article that Arend sent below, are they saying that Sky-High Sundae's inclusion in Tour is as a new course to the series in general, or as a new course to Tour in the same way N64 Mario Raceway was? Polley001 (talk) 11:24, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

Regarding Sky-High Sundae, Yoshi's Island and Squeaky Clean Sprint, there's an official article that defines at least Sky-High Sundae as a new course for both games. Also keep in mind that internally, in Mario Kart Tour anyway, all three courses' filenames begin with the Gmob prefix like every single new course from Mario Kart Tour, defining them as courses made for this game and NOT the Booster Course Pass (which initially advertised that all of its 48 courses were from past games anyway); this is further evidenced that the other past courses are based on their iterations from Mario Kart Tour as well. The only reason how they could be considered Mario Kart 8 Deluxe courses first lies solely on the release schedule of the BCP's waves (this is also why several brands in Tour's Coconut Mall are considered to have debuted in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe by the wiki, as Coconut Mall wasn't out in Tour yet by the time Wave 1 was released, although it makes more sense to me to have the BCP brands listed with the Tour brands).
Using the internal file names for the BCP courses is a disingenuous way to determine them as new courses, given that the BCP is an entirely different project from both Mario Kart Tour and the basegame of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, which has these files named based on their originally planned positions rather than which course it actually is or where it came from. By that logic, you could consider every BCP course as a new course, which obviously makes no sense. rend (talk) (edits) 10:43, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

Please carefully read what I wrote again. I already explained why calling them new in Tour's marketing isn't very relevant, and why internal naming is also not very relevant. As for "Using the internal file names for the BCP courses is a disingenuous way to determine them as new courses", I'm aware that would be disingenuous, that's why I didn't do that? I'm also generally confused about your point that them only being considered new courses in 8 Deluxe because that's how they released is an issue, when the release schedule was absolutely not a coincidence. It could not be more obvious that the Booster Course Pass completely influenced the release schedule for these courses in Tour, I even explained why Piranha Plant Cove releasing way before Wave 6 was likely done specifically because they already knew that it would release in Wave 6. I also gave a basic explanation as to why the fact that they were made for Tour first does not inherently convey their intent, but I'll elaborate a bit more. The Booster Course Pass team was not built to be able to create a course from scratch, there was no reason for them to if the grand majority of courses were already coming from Tour. If they needed to create courses specifically for the Booster Course Pass, whether brand new or returning, of course it would be done by the same team that made all the other courses, the Mario Kart Tour team. Most people seem to have no problem accepting that Wii Rainbow Road was only created for Tour so it could be put into the Booster Course Pass, I'll never get why so many draw the line at brand new courses. Polley001 (talk) 11:24, October 11, 2025 (EDT)

Look. Classic courses are ones that are introduced in a new game. Sky-High Sundae is treated as a classic course for both 8 Deluxe and Tour because that's literally what it was marketed as for both games. And also, internal naming is very relevant on this wiki. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 07:28, October 12, 2025 (EDT)

I think you got that mixed up, PrincessPeachFan. Classic courses are introduced in previous games that reappear in new/later ones. What you just described, are new courses. Sky-High Sundae is thus treated as a new course for both Tour and the BCP because it's advertised as such for both.
I do agree about the internal file names being relevant too, and I also think Polley is thinking a bit too deep about this. rend (talk) (edits) 14:10, October 12, 2025 (EDT)

"is thus treated as a new course for both Tour and the BCP because it's advertised as such for both", as I addressed already, courses such as Sky-High Sundae have only been called "new" in the same general way they've done for a lot of courses which are evidently not brand new to the series. The interpretation that there's a difference is purely conjectural, and they have actually specified that courses were brand new to the series in certain cases where this was actually true such as with Piranha Plant Cove. "I do agree about the internal file names being relevant too", I have already explained why they are not a sufficient way to determine the intent behind these courses' creations. I can very confidently say that I know more about Tour's development than the grand majority of people in the fandom due to being very familiar with topics such as ID numbering, image metadata dates and mapObject listings, and if you were to ask me I'd say that the existence of Sky-High Sundae and Yoshi's Island have nothing to do with the BCP, while Squeaky Clean Sprint, Piranha Plant Cove and even Piranha Plant Pipeline would most likely not exist if not for the BCP's need for additional "non-city" courses. This is of course, also conjectural. All of that being said, I don't get why this topic has shifted to being about "new courses", when the matter at hand is the definition of "classic courses". I completely disagree with the notion that I am "thinking a bit too deep about this", the lack of thought regarding this topic is exactly the problem I'm trying to bring to light. If we're treating "classic courses" as an official term, then we should also be going by the official classification and thus not including the 8 Deluxe versions of Ninja Hideaway, Merry Mountain, and Piranha Plant Cove. If we're actually treating "classic courses" as just "courses that have returned" then we need to properly convey the difference and also include the Tour versions of Sky-High Sundae, Yoshi's Island, and Squeaky Clean Sprint since they are factually courses that already appeared in a different game. Either way you slice it, our coverage of the topic is steeped in conjecture and I don't get why this should get a pass when unnecessary conjecture is so reviled elsewhere on the Super Mario Wiki. Polley001 (talk) 16:48, October 12, 2025 (EDT)

"classic course" is real. Iwata Ask's Mario Kart 7 says so. "Classic courses: Fresh recreations of courses that appeared in previous Mario Kart games and fit with the style of this game." [1] Salmancer (talk) 17:00, October 12, 2025 (EDT)

Yes... I know. It being an official term with official classifications is actually the main thing I'm bringing up here. On a side note, none of the 48 courses in the Booster Course Pass are actually "recreations" (they're all remasters, as Nintendo themselves have correctly pointed out), nor do many of them "fit with the style" of Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, so it doesn't really work as a modern definition. I suppose since it's likely to come up I'll also mention here that a track such as Squeaky Clean Sprint being both remastered and brand new in the Booster Course Pass is not an oxymoron, as the "new" in question is a matter of release and not behind the scenes. Sydney Sprint is one of the earliest courses created for Tour, and yet you wouldn't generally say that Merry Mountain is a newer course than it. It's the same principle (which is also why, if we have to bring up "new course", then there's really not a sufficient reason to consider something like Squeaky Clean Sprint a "new course" in Tour when it took two months for it to be added to that game and as I've pointed out multiple times now, the suggestion that they've said as much themselves in highly conjectural). Polley001 (talk) 17:23, October 12, 2025 (EDT)

What exactly is the problem here? Classic course is an official term and as such, we are using it on this wiki. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:56, October 13, 2025 (EDT)

They're saying that the classification of classic courses on this article is unofficial, not the term itself The Dab Master 09:38, October 13, 2025 (EDT)

(Restarting indent): So, if an interview and the website say that classic courses are ones that have appeared in previous games, there's no reason to question how we do it and as such, we should drop this. PrincessPeachFan (talk) 08:55, October 14, 2025 (EDT)

Of course there's reason to question it because I don't see why we're being so selective, both in terms of which official sources we acknowledge (ignoring Nintendo Music's classifications + the game's own implications through prefixes) and in how we follow them (if the definition is simply "ones that have appeared in previous games", why are we not considering some of the "non-cities" in Tour to be classic courses?). Polley001 (talk) 16:24, October 14, 2025 (EDT)