MarioWiki talk:Good writing

This is a great policy, but I think this it should refer to the Manual of Style maybe somewhere in the intro, or at least a "See also" at the top of the page. Both policies are going into depth about article standards, just two different kinds.

Shokora (talk · edits) 05:57, 7 November 2012 (EST)

The intro's good as-is, but linking to MW:MOS was a good idea, so I added a "See Also" section with that and some extra policy page links. - Walkazo 20:41, 8 November 2012 (EST)

How Ironic...

I found bad writing in the Good Writing article. This sentence is not grammatically correct.
"Pirate Goomba are NPCs that appears in Mario Party 8"
Ultimate Mr. L (Talk-Contribs-Stats) 10:54, 25 January 2017 (EST)

I need to edit the pages. Brandon Quek (talk) 21:51, 16 November 2017 (EST)

You cannot edit this page because this is a protected MarioWiki policy page. If you're referring to mainspace pages, some of them may be semi-protected, meaning you can't edit them until you are autoconfirmed. Mario JC 00:03, 17 November 2017 (EST)

Captain Goomba link

It needs changed to Captain Goomba (Mario Party 8), but as this is an only-alterable-by-admins page, I can't do that. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:36, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

Fixed. Mario JC 21:43, 20 October 2017 (EDT)

"Subspecies" example

The current explanation implies without stating otherwise that Lakitu is a derived species of Koopa Troopa, which is not right. They are separate from the get-go. Also, I think that a further addendum should be added to the sprite explanation to distinguish textures from them as well, as we occasionally get those uploaded (primarily for the pre-release and unused content pages). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 21:45, 10 April 2018 (EDT)

Another word I think should be added

"Acronym" refers to abbreviations that are intended to be pronounced as words. However, it is commonly misused to refer to abbreviations in general. RickTommy (talk) 22:33, 13 August 2018 (EDT)

That is a term I occasionally see misused so I've added this in. Mario JC 01:55, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Another request: should "pun"/"play"/"portmanteau" get added as well? I've seen those terms get misused as well. ^(T|C) 18:19, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

Another request from me: "electrocute". People use it to refer to being zapped, even though it correctly means when someone dies after being zapped. Also, though it's more community-related than writing-related, and because it annoys me: "ban". I've seen users on this Wiki (and other Wikis) use it to refer to being blocked, even though on a Wiki, it refers to a specific kind of block (and sometimes not even one). RickTommy (talk) 19:20, 26 November 2018 (EST)

Note that you yourself are not following good writing, as you are putting the quotation marks inside of punctuation, even though in quoting, the punctuation is considered part of the quote. Just....note that, please. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 19:24, 26 November 2018 (EST)

Apparently, that's dependent on where you live. At least according to this: https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/quotes.asp 19:35, 26 November 2018 (EST)

I'd say cut him some slack, this is just another specific Americanism like the whole use of imperial in modern age. That said, I do follow this rule on the wiki without question, since the writing guidelines explicitly impose American writing standards, but I admit I find it weird. -- -- KOOPA CON CARNE 19:46, 26 November 2018 (EST)

Correct, it's weird. And illogical. Another Wiki where I'm active makes a point of not following this "rule" for this very reason. Anyway, can we please get back on topic? RickTommy (talk) 21:20, 26 November 2018 (EST)

It's perfectly logical. If a sentence were, for example:

Bowser asked "Where are you hiding Peach"?

....it would seem like the narrator is questioning that Bowser said that, since the punctuation isn't part of the quote. However, if it were:

Bowser asked "Where are you hiding Peach?"

....then it's clear that Bowser is the one asking the question, since the punctuation is within the quote itself. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:11, 26 November 2018 (EST)

@Rick Tommy: Yes, we can. Maybe "electrocute" can be added. After all, it does seem to have a scope as big as "outer space" and "subspecies" in the category of non-meta words, since there are many electrical enemies that users might want to describe mechanically but confuse the act of zapping Mario with killing him through zapping. As for "ban", it would be quite nitpicky to tell users what language to use outside of the main space, wouldn't it? Courtesy issues notwithstanding of course. Maybe the correct use of the word can be noted as an extra fact, but it definitely shouldn't be enforced on talk/user/whatever else pages. -- -- KOOPA CON CARNE 22:32, 26 November 2018 (EST)

@Doc: In the example you gave, the question mark is originally from the quote. If I were to quote something else now, say, "how now brown cow", you may notice how I put the comma after the quote because it has a syntactic role in this very sentence I'm typing, whereas American punctuation dictates putting it inside the quote--which is illogical because then it would seem as if it originates from the quote. -- -- KOOPA CON CARNE 22:32, 26 November 2018 (EST)

The obvious solution would be to have it be dependent on whether it's a quote or simply an emphasis, and not this all-or-nothing thing various rulemakers impose. But I'm not one of them. Anyways, as for the ban thing, "tempban" and "permaban" are both types of bans, so I wouldn't really see the problem, even going into the nitty-gritty of non-mainspace. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:39, 26 November 2018 (EST)

That's what everyone is arguing for. The punctuation stuff I mean. -- -- KOOPA CON CARNE 22:46, 26 November 2018 (EST)

I usually use it in circumstantial terms. If the quote includes the punctuation, I include the punctuation in the quote. If it doesn't, I don't.

Anyway, on topic, looking up the definition of "electrocute", (note comma :P) it also means to severally injure by way of electricity. In terms of execution, it does mean to kill, but I don't think the word needs to be added given this.

For "ban", I use it more frequently than "block", even though what shows in logs is called a "Block Log". Looking them up, they mean pretty much the same thing. 23:00, 26 November 2018 (EST)

"Block"/"ban" are not terms used on mainspace so they don't need to be listed. Per Alex on "electrocute". Mario JC 04:48, 27 November 2018 (EST)

While "ban" and "block" can be used to refer to different kinds of blocks, it does not seem necessary to add it here, as this specifically refers to the mainspace. "Ban" is used pretty frequently, and it seems strange to request that it is not used on places like talk pages. Also, I completely agree with what has been said for both "electrocute" and the punctuation stuff. --TheFlameChomp (talk) 06:55, 27 November 2018 (EST)

I have a misused word suggestion: Obake. People often misinterpret this word as "ghost", when its actual definition is a being that has taken on a temporary form (basically, a shapeshifter), though modern usage associates obake with any form of monster. "obake" creatures in the Marioverse have ranged from "I guess it's a ghost" to "clearly not a ghost" to "That's literally just a ball", and it just seems silly to refer to every "obake" creature as a ghost. Somethingone (talk) 07:57, April 26, 2022 (EDT)

"Similar" used as an adverb

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By far one of the most recurring and annoying errors I encountered during the decade I've been active here was the word "similar" being used when "similarly" should be used. I think this should be added to the list of frequently misused terms. What say other wiki editors? -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:32, July 23, 2023 (EDT)

Hmmmmm, very interesting. Most of the results I get show "similar to", which IS correct. "Similarly" is mainly used at the BEGINNING of a sentence. I agree that "similar to" SHOULD be replaced, BUT only if it is used in the beginning of a sentence. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 09:18, February 1, 2024 (CST)

"Similar to", used as an adverb, is never correct. I can't find a dictionary entry for "similar" classifying it as an adverb. Its use as such is like "should of", popular but incorrect. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:03, February 1, 2024 (EST)

Yes, but I see NOTHING that shows "similar to", NOT IN THE BEGINNING OF A SENTENCE!, as an adverb. When it IS used at the beginning of a sentence, it SHOULD be replaced with "similarly". Like this: "Mega Moles are similar to Monty Moles" compared to "Mega Moles are similarly Monty Moles". SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 10:35, January 1, 2024 (CST)

do you know what an adverb even is -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:44, February 1, 2024 (EST)

Anyway, "similar" is primarily an adjective, so "Mega Moles are similar to Monty Moles" is perfectly fine. On the other hand, "Mega Moles walk from side to side, similar to Monty Moles." is not correct; it should be "Mega Moles walk from side to side, similarly to Monty Moles." Here, you need to modify the verb "walk", so you need to use "similarly", an adverb. Instead, the wiki currently uses "similar" for that purpose a ridiculous amount. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:00, February 1, 2024 (EST)

Similar is an adjective, whereas similarly is an adverb. Similar should be used when comparing two nouns (Susie and Emma are similar; Susie is similar to Emma), while similarly should be used when comparing two verbs or adjectives (Susie and Emma similarly enjoy apples; Susie enjoys apples similarly to Emma. For adjectives: Susie and Emma are similarly blonde; Susie is blonde similarly to Emma).

In the examples listed in the linked search results, I see:

• "Some Remix and Bonus stages have the graphics switch between normal graphics and a filter with white background and black sprites, similar to the Game Boy." The switching is the similarity here and switch is being used as a verb, so it should be similarly.
• "In Yoshi Touch & Go, no concrete plot was revealed, similar to the puzzle games." It's unclear if we're modifying plot or the reveal thereof here. If we're trying to say the simplistic plot is the similarity, plot is a noun, so similar is correct. If we're saying the lack of reveal is the similarity, reveal is a verb, so it should be changed to similarly. I would recommend revising this sentence entirely to clarify what comparison is being made.
• "Unlike the entries directly before, however, Paper Mario: The Origami King has levels that are directly connected rather than being segregated through a level select screen, similar to the first two games in the series." The similarity here is the direct connection, connected is a verb, it should be similarly.

So on so forth. I would agree this is a common enough error to justify a mention. 73.171.104.211 12:07, February 1, 2024 (EST)

You know what? FINE! You win. I give up. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 12:58, February 1, 2024 (CST)

Yet another misused word

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I've noticed, at least almost entirely recently, that "render" is often misused to refer to all official artwork. RickTommy (talk) 23:50, September 17, 2023 (EDT)

Any fully-processed three-dimensional work is a render. This is a render.Media:Mario - Mario Party 10.png -- KOOPA CON CARNE 09:27, February 8, 2024 (EST)

"Cameo" as a frequently misused term

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The word "cameo" is short for "cameo role". It originally referred to a celebrity playing themself rather than a fictional character, and expanded to refer to celebrities making brief but instantly recognizable appearances in movies and songs.

In colloquial use, it is an absolutely valid metaphor to extend the word further, to describe any single brief appearance as a cameo. In fan wikis, however, I've grown to consider it a widespread mark of poor writing. It describes background appearances of little-known characters and inanimate objects as if a famous person showed up. And if the reader doesn't recognize the subject of the "cameo", the phrasing will feel especially ridiculous.

In videogames, the concept of a brief appearance is also stretched, since the player can often linger on a setpiece for as long as they want, or return to it multiple times throughout the experience.

There are further issues with the phrase "making a cameo". This phrase strikes me as overly casual, and assigns even greater importance to what is usually minor information. I would replace "makes a cameo" with "appears", or at least something like "has a minor appearance".

Here are some examples that I have recently edited:

Pinna Park makes a cameo in the background of the Delfino Plaza stage…

This is about a landmark not being removed from a recurring setting. Phrasing it as a surprise bonus appearance implies that one should expect Pinna Park to be absent from the background, even though there's no reason to have that expectation. Pinna Park is also not a celebrity, nor a particularly well-known location among videogame fans.

Pauline's parasol, or at the very least a similar item, makes a cameo in the arcade version of Donkey Kong Jr.…

It can't be a cameo if we're saying that no one can tell whether it's the same entity in the first place. Pauline's parasol is also not a celebrity, nor a particularly well-known item among videogame fans.

In Yoshi's Crafted World, a ? Block makes a cameo on a sticker labeled "HANDLE WITH CARE"…

Need I go on? Just write "appears"! Even when the subject is a famous piece of videogame iconography, this is awkward phrasing. There's no need to gas up the ? Block, of all things. Most people will not find it unusual to see it referenced in a Mario-franchise platformer. Besides, while ? Blocks aren't in most Yoshi games, they were in Yoshi's Story, so this "cameo" is not especially significant.

I've brought this up on the server, but I thought I should also post here and consider making a proposal if necessary. AgentMuffin (talk) 07:20, October 23, 2023 (EDT)