Talk:Final Smash

(First topic)

Do you think the character final smashes qualify for having their own article each? Or should all of them be listed and described here? - Cobold (talk · contribs) 08:09, 2 June 2007 (EDT)

Nope. You SHOULD list em' here, but only as links to the actual pages. They are seperate attacks you know, so they deserve their own article. - User:Pokemon DP/sig

Final Smash compilation video

This YouTube video has Final Smashes of various characters, including Meta Kight, Ike, and Zero Suit Samus, whose Final Smashes are not up on the Dojo yet. Can we put them up here and give them conjectural names until the Dojo reveals the real ones, like we did with Kirby before his Final Smash went up on the Dojo? — NES Boy 12:11, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

We cannot create articles for them, but we can add them to the table on this page and list their names as "unknown". - Cobold (talk · contribs) 12:28, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

Wario's Final Smash

Should we put Wario's final smash u kno the big Wario Waft he does King Mario

The Wario Waft is Wario's Down special move, not his Final Smash. Xzelion^ETC

Zero Suit Samus' Final Smash...

...does not make her equip her Fusion Suit. First of all, that is only a palette swap of the Fusion Suit. It still has the same overall appearance as the Power Suit. Second, that Fusion Suit palette swap is one of Samus' colors, just like there is a "Fire Mario" color for Mario, a yellow "Daisy" dress for Peach, and a "Dark Link" color for Link. And last, what ZSS's Final Smash basically does is make her equip her armored suit.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by ElementGodX (talk).

That sounds reasonable. But do you have a source? - Cobold (talk · contribs) 15:11, 4 November 2007 (EST)

This doesn't require a source. It requires common sense. Why would they complicate Samus even more by making ZSS become Fusion Suit Samus? One Final Smash after the other is ridiculous:

Samus + Smash Ball = Zero Suit Samus + Smash Ball = Fusion Suit Samus + Smash Ball = ???

^ That is highly unlikely. ElementGodX

High unlikeliness doesn't help an encyclopedia. However, the previous statement about the Fusion Suit didn't have a source as well, so there's no way I could say something against it. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 11:37, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Turns out he's right, I think. The website publically posted the palette swap making Samus look just like she does in the screenshot we have for this "final smash". You'll also remember that each fighter can only use one Final Smash per game according to early information. This could have changed, but Sakurai hasn't said anything to the opposite effect. As it stands, I feel our concern should be that, unless there is video proof, we are assuming the attack exists based on high likeliness. Stumpers! 18:33, 5 December 2007 (EST)

Hmm... Final Smashes can only be used once? Then how come Zero Suit Samus can use a Smash Ball when Samus has already used a Smash Ball to become Zero Suit Samus. It is either that Final Smashes can be used more than once or that the whole Zero Suit Samus using a Smash Ball was fake. MarioBros777 It's Back to Editing!!!Think about it or unless you can start of as Zero Suit Samus.

My point was that, based on the "it can only be used once," we are assuming that she has one, which is more questionable than passing off what we now know to be a color swap as a final smash. Who cares, though? In two weeks, all this will be moot when the Japanese version comes out. Stumpers! 14:06, 13 January 2008 (EST)

Okay, for the record, you were right all along. Congratulations! Stumpers! 16:22, 16 January 2008 (EST)

Attacks unique to Smash Bros.?

No fighter is known to possess the ability to perform these moves in their own worlds under the same conditions, as Smash Balls only exist in the world of Super Smash Bros.

I'm starting to question this statement. While Mario certainly never used a Mario Finale in Mario games and Peach never used Peach Blossom, other attacks like Super Sonic and Light Arrow (ahem) do appear in their respective series and are used by the characters in that way. The attacks existed before Smash Bros. Is the above still correct? - Cobold (talk · contribs) 04:27, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Key phrase, "under the same conditions." I don't know if ZeldaWiki says it, (try zelda.wikia.com they usually are complete), but that picture there was of when Zelda summoned the four Light Spirits and borrowed their power. Definately not like a Smash Ball. :) Sonic's though is a little more iffy. I would say the statement still stands because instead of utilizing 50 Rings in order to become Super Sonic, he utilizes a Smash Ball. So, the means are different. If you'll like to change that sentence to clarify, of course you should do so, but as far as removing it, I feel that would be bad. Oh, and just so you know, I wrote that sentense so I know what I meant... but if you don't that's a sign of a badly written sentense and you should change it. Stumpers! 13:06, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Well, just the fact that the condition is the Smash Ball makes the statement quite obvious. It was better when there were only moves like Giga Bowser Transformation etc. which the character never actually used in the series, but now it's confusing. About Zelda - I don't need a wiki for my info, I have played the game, I only wanted to show it to those who didn't. - Cobold (talk · contribs) 13:09, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Good. I'm a big Zelda fan as well, but I was thinking the same thing. I read your changes and I feel it is much more informative and not at all speculative. So, big improvement. Stumpers! 16:32, 21 January 2008 (EST)

Diffusion Beam

We need an image for it as it was missed. Phoenix Rider

Trophies

I was thinking about this - should we add all the Final Smash trophies here? (even though they're in other articles) Mario JC

Seems kind of unnecessary. Hello, I'm Time Turner.

Delete

No relevence to the Mario series. Mr. Anon 23:15, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Final Smash is in Super Smash Bros. Mario can use Final Smash. Final Smash has relevance. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Mario's own Final smash could have an article, as could Luigi's, Peach's, and Bowser's. However, having an article that lists other final smashes is unncecessary, when Smashwiki already covers this. Mr. Anon 23:25, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe you should see the coverage thingy for more information. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 23:38, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

More Final Smashes for SSB4

Thanks to the E3 footage from Nintendo Treehouse, more Final Smashes have been shown (like Zero Suit Samus, Luigi, Sonic). Are we gonna add them now or wait until the official name for the Final Smashes are revealed? Tails777 Talk to me!

Pretty sure for those Final Smashes that remain the same, you can assume they're called the same. You can list them now; you don't need their names to provide decent information. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 14:30, 12 June 2014 (EDT)

Needs more images

Due to the lack of images, the editor who edited out this article needs to find more images that represent the {Final Smash}. {User:birdtendo}

Final Smash Types

Through a small discussion over on the SmashWiki, it was decided to drop the "types" listed for the big Final Smash table. In my opinion, it only seems fitting that we do the same here; however, that is just my opinion. I'd like to hear if you guys have any objections. Aidanzapunk (talk) 10:19, 2 November 2015 (EST)

Do the same here. The type division feels arbitrary, and there's a higher emphasis on official nomenclature over common usage here compared to SmashWiki. It's me, Mario! (Talk / Stalk) 13:53, 2 November 2015 (EST)

Leftovers?

Just updated the page with the new Final Smash revealed through Nintendo Treehouse and off-screen gameplay. Did I miss anything?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Prpro=03 (talk).

Final Smash names

The SmashWiki shows that all of the currently unnamed Final Smashes in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate have been named. I don't know if its true or not?
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Prpro=03 (talk).

GIF

Do you think we should try to get GIFs of each Final Smash instead of just using images? PrPro03 (talk) 11:35, August 3, 2019 (EDT)Prpro=03

Given the ridiculous amount of Final Smashes in SSBU, not counting replaced ones, adding GIFs of each one would massively extend the page's load time. TheDarkStar 11:59, August 3, 2019 (EDT)

Agreed, bad idea. Mario JC 02:31, August 4, 2019 (EDT)

Neaten up

I think I have two ideas as to make this page neater than it already is, if either seem reasonable let me know: A) We split the charts between games so Super Smash Bros. Brawl has its own Final Smash chart etc. and any characters with reused Final Smashes can say that they function similar to the previous game. OR B) We put the name of the character in the first column and the name of the Final Smash in the second column? PrPro03 (talk) 10:18, August 8, 2019 (EDT)Prpro=03

I don't see a problem with how it is now. Option A would end up having a lot of "This Final Smash functions the same as in the previous game"s, and the page is about Final Smashes, so it would make sense for those to be the first column and the characters the second (though even so, option B doesn't really change anything). Mario JC 22:10, August 8, 2019 (EDT)

Disambigs needed?

There are currently several disambig pages for Final Smashes. These include Triforce Slash, Light Arrow, Zero Laser, Landmaster, Volt Tackle, Mega Evolution, PK Starstorm, Critical Hit, and Grand Cross. There are also other Super Smash Bros. moves with disambig pages like Missile and Counter, but at least those span multiple articles. Now that the wiki's moved on to the list format for Super Smash Bros. content, I don't think the disambigs for Final Smashes need to exist anymore individually. They're just going to redirect here, and in most cases, they're identical and are grouped together now anyway. The only ones I can see being useful are Triforce Slash and Landmaster since Link and Fox kept their articles. LinkTheLefty (talk) 16:58, October 19, 2023 (EDT)

As per this proposal, all Smash redirects are to be deleted, which would render the disambiguation pages unnecessary, so they should also be deleted, solving this issue. — Lady Sophie ^(T|C) 16:05, March 16, 2024 (EDT)

Is a Final Smash a "special move" (proper noun)?

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

A Final Smash is not a special move 4-1-0
Title. As many will be aware, the Super Smash Bros. (series) is built on a core tenet: (Nearly) every character has the same number of moves, each of a character's moves fall into a grouping, and each move of the same grouping operates is roughly the same way. For example, everyone has five Air Attacks, their choices available in the air: Neutral Air Attack, Front Air Attack, Back Air Attack, Up Air Attack, and Down Air Attack. Everyone has three Tilt Attacks. Side Tilt Attack, Up Tilt Attack, Down Tilt Attack. Everyone has four special moves, a group of attacks characterized by being unique to each character. There's Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, and... Final Smash!? After doing many complex mathematical operations, such as finding the limit, solving for x, and compounding intrest, I have reached the ultimate conclusion: four does not equal five.

Yep, its a definition quandary. What's a Final Smash? No, I don't care what a Final Smash does right now, I care that the article Final Smash opens on, "The Final Smash is a special move that can be used...", and that articles for Final Smashes like Mario Finale and Shadow Mario Paint have "Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate special moves" on them. Why do I care? Not important! Lets go over lists of evidence I've gathered for both sides, as well as their obvious counterarguments in parentheses {()}. Bear in mind I don't have access to every Smash Bros. game so these lists are not complete. This is one of those proposals that will likely have new discoveries in the comments section.

Evidence against Final Smashes being special moves

• The How to Play video for every game from Brawl onward say there are four special moves, specifically saying "There are four types of special moves" If a Final Smash is a special move, then everyone has five special moves, and we have a problem. (But How to Play videos end on explaining Final Smashes, a segment that occurs after the one for special moves! There's a good reason to tell a little white lie earlier on in the video in order to not give players information that could confuse them.)
• The Move List is a menu in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate where players can look at each character's Neutral Special, Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, and Final Smash. The menu's description is "Learn about the fighter's special moves and Final Smashes." If a Final Smash is a special move, shouldn't it read "Learn about the fighter's special moves."? (Well, a Final Smash is a particularly important part of each character's marketing, so it makes sense to call it out separately from the special moves.)
• The Nintendo Switch News article, "Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - Beginners Guide (Part I)" says "every character has four kinds of special moves," directly below a screenshot of Mario's page from the Move List that the article says the reader should use as a reference! (I've got nothing. Even if you say "beginners don't need to know about Final Smashes" that means the article just introduced something without following up on it! The reader is apparently supposed to ignore one-fourth of the screenshot, since that's the space Mario Finale takes up. One could accuse the writer of incompetence, but that's rude so I instead assume that the article is correct in its statement and therefore the text is ignoring Final Smashes because they are not special moves.)
• This European quick guide for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS gives the button the header "Special Move". That header reads "Perform one of four types of special move, or a Final Smash." Again, if a Final Smash is a special move then it wouldn't need to be called out separately. (Again, its important from a marketing standpoint to specifically print the words "Final Smash", definitions be darned.)
• The manuals for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS list Final Smash inside a separate box that is under the header for special moves. North American 3DS European 3DS, section 9: Attacking (Salmancer, you haven't yet proven separate boxes under headers are "separate third things"™ yet, this could just as easily mean a Final Smash is a kind of special move!)
• The manuals for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U have much of the same content as the manuals for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS, but uniquely have a "Attacking/Shielding" section for all of the different button inputs. That section has one header for special moves and a completely separate header for Final Smashes. American Wii U European Wii U Section 13: Attacking/Shielding (I can't come up with a counterargument, this one seems clear cut.)
• The manuals for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS/Wii U end on sections going over each character. They have no header other than the character's name, and each section only lists the character's four special moves and not their Final Smash. If a Final Smash is a kind of special move, this is deceiving, because then why does it only list 4/5 special moves when 4/4 special moves is more logical and comprehensive? If a Final Smash is a special move, then it should have the same amount of significance as the other four special moves. (Well, maybe they did not have the space to include Final Smashes, and in the grand scheme of things the inaccessibility of Final Smashes does make them less important than other special moves. It makes some amount of sense for the instruction manual to leave some parts of character discovery to the players, so maybe leaving out Final Smashes is meant to encourage curiosity.)
• The DOJO has the article Four Special Move Types, which, say it with me now, says there are four special moves. It was published in August 2007, after the May 2007 post about Final Smashes, so unless Sakurai was writing this blog for the trade paperback as reference material for people who purchased Brawl after the game came out, he has no reason to lie about the number of special moves that each character has. I don't think it was written as reference material, I think it was written as promotional material. (But what if the DOJO was written as reference material? Your argument that the DOJO is promotional material is based only on your personal opinion.)
• When Cloud is using Limit Break, he exits the state the next time he uses a special move to use a more powerful version. Oh, and his down special Limit Charge becomes Finishing Touch but that also ends Limit Break. Cloud's Final Smash, Omnislash, is not modified or replaced during Limit Break. (There are legitimate game design reasons to not create a Limit Break version of Omnislash. It would be expending resources for an animation that would only play a fraction of the times a Cloud player gets to use their Final Smash, and it would encourage a bad play pattern of holding off on Cloud's special moves so that a player can use the Limit Break version of Omnislash when really the character's play pattern is supposed to be about taking advantage of Limit Break when it comes up and not playing around saving it for the best time.)
• Sonic's Spring Jump puts him in a special state until he lands, during which he unable to use special moves. Wanna know what he can do in that special state in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate? Use his Final Smash, Super Sonic. (There's a legitimate game design reason to let players do this. A Final Smash isn't exactly easy to gain access to, and losing out on it due to not realizing the edge case of Spring Jump's mechanics would be be such a feel bad.)
• I entered a Training battle with Dedede against Sheik, both using a level 99 Geno spirit with no support spirits. Dedede's Final Smash, Dede-rush, inflicted 28.3% damage. Its a good choice for this experiment because it inflicts damage almost entirely in a cutscene, minimizing any noise caused by the positions of characters.) Then, I did the same thing, only this time both characters also had the Shine Sprite spirit for its ability to boost the power of all special moves. Result? 28.3% damage, aka no change! Obviously, Final Smashes aren't eligible for Special-Move Power ↑, and therefore they are not special moves. (Programming error? I don't think Dede-rush's initial swing has variable damage. Yeah, this argument is pretty rock solid.)
• The name "Final Smash" does not contain the string of text "special" in it, while all special moves do. (This is splitting hairs, not every series names things as utilitarianly as Super Mario does.)
• Mii Fighters Settings 1, a page of the Mii Fighter tutorial in Ultimate reads, "For each special-move type, there are three variations to choose from." Given this, a Final Smash cannot be a special-move type, because they do not have variations. And there's no way a Final Smash can be a "special-move" without being a "special-move type". If it is somehow still a special-move type, then "excluding Final Smashes" should be appended to that string of text. (Did the game pick really bad wording for this page?)

Evidence for Final Smashes being special moves

• A Final Smash is performed by using the special-move button. (There are cases where a button does something that its name does not indicate. For example, players can grab opponents by holding the shield button and pressing the attack button. Grabbing is not a kind of attack.)
• The DOJO article The Battle for the Smash Ball says "Once a character gets it and begins glowing on standby, he or she just does a standard special move to unleash the Final Smash. Just press the B Button without any directional input." So a Final Smash is the transformed version of a standard special move. (So? We just said the action caused by pressing a button can change in ways that mean the action performed does not match the category of the button. It's possible that the conversion from "standard special input" to "perform Final Smash" is exactly one such scenario, and the result of this conversion is a non-special move. Also, the DOJO is an eighteen year old website, it may well be outdated with the 2/3 other games that have released after its conclusion.)
• The DOJO articles for each of the game's characters have a header labelled "{character}'s Special Moves". Here are links to Mario and Diddy Kong, and here is a full directory. There are five moves beneath this header, the conventional four special moves and the Final Smash. (This one is pretty strong. I will point out that the post about each character's Final Smash is uniformly a separate post from the post about their special moves, which is weird if a Final Smash is a special move. Then again, having two posts in this way makes a lot of sense for a regularly updating pre-release blog, irrespective of the definition of Final Smash.Also, the DOJO is an eighteen year old website, it may well be outdated with the 2/3 other games that have released after its conclusion.)
• In the Iwata Asks for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Sakurai describes the Final Smash as "Simply put, it’s a special move that can be used only once." You want Volume 5:Plethora of New Features, Section 1: Final Smash. (I don't really have a counterargument for this. It's possible that Sakurai is being informal, but he personally wrote every post in the DOJO, therefore with that website's additional context I think the idea of the interview being informal is outside the realm of possibility. Like the DOJO though, this interview is also really old, and new conventions in writing related to Smash Bros. may supercede it.)
• The trophy for the Smash Ball in American Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U reads "If your opponent collects this, you'd better brace yourself for a powerful special move." (But the European equivalent reads "A special item that lets one lucky fighter unleash their Final Smash, a secret move unique to them." so this is inconclusive. And the trophy descriptions of Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U are generally defined by their informal tone, the North American trophy may well mean "special move" as in "its a unique skill of a character" and not "special move" as in "it is one of the mechanics of Super Smash Bros.)
• The manuals for Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U list Final Smash inside a separate box that is under the header for special moves. (The fact Final Smashes are in a separated box from the special moves header means they aren't quite the same thing as special moves) {Brick joke}
• Ryu, Ken, and Terry all have a mechanic where they can cancel basic attacks that hit an opponent into special moves. They can also cancel basic attacks that hit an opponent into their Final Smash. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's Techniques menu contains the entry "Attack Cancelling", which partially reads "After hitting an opponent with a basic attack, you can immediately use a special move to cancel the end of the attack animation..." (The Techniques menu also has one or more video clips of each technique, and none of the ones for Attack Cancelling show basic attack -> Final Smash. The Tips menu's entries for Ryu has an entry called "Final Smash between Attacks", which reads "Ryu's Final Smash can be used after cancelling various other attacks...". This, through not being a tip about special moves as a whole, implies that "cancel into Final Smash is actually a "separate third thing"™ and not "Attack Cancelling". Backing up this interpretation is that the Ultimate version 3.1.0 patch notes has a string of text for "Increased the amount of time you can cancel with a special move." and a separate string of text for "Increased the amount of time you can cancel with a special move or a Final Smash.", meaning "cancel into special move" and "cancel into Final Smash" are handled by separate mechanics that can be individually tweaked. Alternatively, the tip "Air Attack Cancel" reads "Air Attacks can be cancelled immediately after they hit by pressing the special-move button just like some other attacks can," suggesting that maybe its one mechanic but it only cares about the special-move button and not if the result is or isn't a special move. Ryu, Ken, and Terry all have special mechanics and variables meant to incorporate the gameplay of their source fighting games into Super Smash Bros, maybe that comes with a disregard for what Super Smash Bros. defines as a special move for the sake of imitating how characters are allowed to cancel into their Super moves in those source games.)

With those lists out of the way, I have compiled three options:

• Final Smashes are not a kind of special move
  • We change the opening sentence of Final Smash to not use "special move", then remove Category:Super Smash Bros. Brawl special moves, Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U special moves, and Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate special moves from all relevant articles. (Mario Finale, Doctor Finale, Negative Zone, Poltergust 5000, Poltergust G-00, Peach Blossom, Giga Bowser, Giga Bowser Punch, Grand Star (move), Shadow Mario Paint, Petey Piranha (move), Super Dragon, Stampede!, Wario-Man, Konga Beat, Jungle Rush, Rocketbarrel Barrage, Hyper Rocketbarrel, Blast-o-Matic. Oh, and infinite supply of redirects for non-Super Mario Final Smashes, but weren't those redirects supposed to be deleted?) Simple as. Well, when we rejigger the article to have a history section we also note that some sources for Super Smash Bros. Brawl say that these are special moves.
• Final Smashes are a kind of special move in Super Smash Bros. Brawl but lose that status in all further games.
  • We change the opening sentence of Final Smash to not use "special move", but when we rejigger the article to have a history section we note that these are special moves in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Then we remove Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U special moves, and Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate special moves from all relevant articles. (Mario Finale, Doctor Finale Poltergust 5000, Poltergust G-00, Peach Blossom, Giga Bowser, Giga Bowser Punch, Grand Star (move), Shadow Mario Paint, Petey Piranha (move), Super Dragon, Stampede!, Wario-Man, Konga Beat, Jungle Rush, Rocketbarrel Barrage, Hyper Rocketbarrel, Blast-o-Matic. Oh, and infinite supply of redirects for non-Super Mario Final Smashes, but weren't those redirects supposed to be deleted?) Simple as.
• Status Quo: Final Smashes are a kind of special move
  • What, did you expect a paragraph? This is the "no change" option. Well, I guess this is a good time to mention Final Smash's categories are Category:Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Category:Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U, and Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. It this passes, then it probably makes sense to change these to the special move category for each game. But this is the status quo option, so I guess I can't enforce the change over to these categories.

This proposal is not voting on what to categorize the Final Smashes as if it passes, only the removal of the special move categories from the individual Final Smash articles. Each article will wind up with the category for the game replacing the lost special move category by necessity, but that's not part of the proposal. We could vote to give each article specific new categories, but as it happens I want to have "Special move (Super Smash Bros. series)", "Air Attack", "Tilt Attack", "Grab (Super Smash Bros. series)" and so on as articles and therefore "Category:Super Smash Bros. Brawl moves", "Category:Super Smash Bros. Nintendo 3DS / Wii U moves", and "Category:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate moves", and I don't want to trip over the result of my own proposal in the future.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: September 13, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Full Support: Final Smashes are not special moves

1. Salmancer (talk) Video game tutorials shouldn't lie to players, so I feel comfortable in saying they aren't lying. When they say there are four types of special moves, that means there are four types special moves. Mii Fighter have special move variations, and none of them are Final Smashes because Final Smashes aren't special moves. The Super Smash Bros. for Wii U digital manual is the most detailed manual out of the four relevant games, and its controls section has a row for the inputs that perform a special move and a different row for the input that perform a Final Smash. Also Special-Move Power ↑ in Ultimate failed to affect a Final Smash. Out of all the sources, only the DOJO is 100% clear that a Final Smash is a special move of some kind, and its word is held back by its age and the immense number of other sources which say there are only four special moves.
2. Hewer (talk) Although I've generally thought of them as being special moves, I think the proposal makes a convincing enough argument that official sources tend not to, so it makes sense for the wiki to follow suit. Though we should of course still note on the article that some sources disagree.
3. Camwoodstock (talk) Per Hewer. It should be noted that some sources do consider them special moves anyways, but we think it's fair to not count Final Smashes as special moves for the sake of categorization and whatnot.
4. EvieMaybe (talk) per Camwoodstock

Date Dependent Support: Final Smashes are special moves in Brawl only

1. Salmancer (talk) Given the DOJO and Iwata Asks, I think its possible that Nintendo was a little looser about defining what a Final Smash is for Brawl then tightened it up for later games. Which would mean a "Maybe" for Brawl and a "No" for later games, and I am willing to round up that "maybe" to a "yes".

Comments (Define Final Smash)

This proposal is long enough as it is and it didn't offer any new information, but here's a link to the physical North American manual for Super Smash Bros. for Wii U. It ends on a section with characters, their special moves, and their Final Smash, differentiating the special moves from the final smash by having the Final Smash's portion use a darker background and printing the name of the Final Smash in white text. Salmancer (talk) 04:10, August 30, 2025 (EDT)

The Brawl manual isn't in the body because it doesn't have anything like an answer. Final Smash doesn't get a move callout in it; they're only noted as something players gain access to after breaking a Smash Ball under the section for the Smash Ball. American manual Salmancer (talk) 04:25, August 30, 2025 (EDT)

I'm still on the edge for voting but I would like to think that the reason why they only mention four Special moves is because a fighter can only have four special moves at once (once a fighter is powered, their Final Smash replaces their neutral special). Altendo 08:53, August 30, 2025 (EDT)

I probably should have included the wording of the How to Play videos, which I think makes that specific interpretation not work. They say "There are four types of special moves". The only way for this wording to square with "a fighter can only have four special moves at once" is if a Final Smash is specifically an upgraded version of a neutral special, and that's a whole other can of worms. And also proven false already, because the Final Smash Great Aether is specified by the DOJO and its trophy descriptions as being an upgraded version of Aether. (The Wii U trophy specifies Aether is an up special, so this connection is backed by the interpretation of Aether in Super Smash Bros.) Salmancer (talk) 15:09, August 31, 2025 (EDT)

I would also like to mention that all manuals (even the in-game manual from Ultimate) appear to list Final Smashes alongside their Special Moves, and that all other moves (standards, tilts, aerials and such) are excluded from those manual movelists. Min Min is about the only character who lists a standard move alongside the specials, but only because her Neutral Special and Side Special are and work effectively the exact same as her standard attack and her forward tilt/smash attacks, but using her interchangeable right ARM instead of her left one. I'm not entirely sure the Final Smash being included is whether because it is considered a Special Move or because it's important enough to require a mention, but I can see why people would think it's the former.
Also, wouldn't it have to be listed in Category:Special moves either way? rend (talk) (edits) 09:12, August 30, 2025 (EDT)

There's one exception to that: Smash 3DS and Smash Wii U digital manuals. North American 3DS American Wii U Their last sections go over a number of character's special moves but leave leave Final Smashes off the lists. This is a point toward the Final Smash being a related but ultimately distinct entity from the special moves: an official source left Final Smashes off a list of special moves. And wait, Category:Super Smash Bros. Brawl special moves is a subcategory of Category:Special moves but the article Final Smash is not in any way a subcategory of Category:Special moves!? Ugh, I'll mark this oddity down as grist for the Category:Special moves proposal. In the meantime, yes, if this proposal passes the individual Final Smash articles would also gain Category:Special moves to make up for the removed categories. Salmancer (talk) 15:09, August 31, 2025 (EDT)

I noticed the Mii Fighter's tutorial in Ultimate has the phrase "For each special-move type, there are three variations to choose from.". Added this point to the body of the proposal. Salmancer (talk) 02:46, September 1, 2025 (EDT)