Talk:Neo Bowser Castle

Merge the Dream Team and Paper Jam appearances to one article

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

merge 7-0
While these are different individual castles and have different designs, the exact same thing can be said about the many, many, many different iterations of "Bowser's Castle" we don't split, and I fail to see why this should be different. The name in Paper Jam is a clear callback to the previous one in Dream Team (despite the concept of Bowser's Castle doubling as a flying weapon being in every Mario & Luigi game other than Partners in Time, though these are the only ones of those powered by purple energy...but I digress).

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: April 3, 2022, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per
2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal.
3. LinkTheLefty (talk) Not to mention that the names are identical in every language as well.
4. Tails777 (talk) Seems reasonable, per proposal.
5. Swallow (talk) Taking the point about Bowser's Castle into account, this is fair enough.
6. Somethingone (talk) Design has next to no weight on determining splits and merges, per proposal.
7. Platform (talk) Per all.

Comments

Just to be clear, though: are all instances of Bowser's Castle generally considered the same castle albeit with differently conceived designs? ^(T|C) 15:02, March 23, 2022 (EDT)

I seriously doubt the ones in Paper Mario and Superstar Saga could be. Nightwicked Bowser 15:37, March 23, 2022 (EDT)

Re-split Neo Bowser Castle between games

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

Do not split 2-8
Neo Bowser Castle in Dream Team is a "world". It's not delineated in the game in that way, but functionally each area of Pi'illo Island can be considered a separate world, with differing mechanics and goals. From it, the player accesses various "levels", which introduce or elaborate on these mechanics. This is more obvious from the structure of this game's Pi'illos and Dream Worlds, but even without the Dream World around thinking of sets of rooms as a "level" makes plenty of sense. This goes double for more linear areas like Neo Bowser Castle and Mount Pajamaja. Similarly, Dream Team has a whole "unlock new areas in prior locations that have different enemies" thing, which is delineated in articles by giving both groups separate sections for their enemies, almost as though they are separate "levels".

Dream Team is like a platformer, except that instead of selecting levels from a map screen the player walks between them or selects which area to return to from a map screen with the golden Warp Pipes. The article is already thinking of Neo Bowser Castle as a "world" with "levels", as it names and loosely describes the sections in the Area Layout section. (I think the names and organization are coming from the official guide? It could probably use some elaboration beyond what's written, but that can be fixed.)

Because of this, I think there is good reason to once again split the Neo Bowser Castle's apart. A split would better reflect the game's hybrid platformer/RPG nature by putting this article more in line with platformer World articles. It would make it easier to see what is missing from the article and less intimidating to do things like figure out how to organize a layout section. This change would also make the page easier to use as a reference when playing the game. (I think that's what the block listing sections are meant for, but if this is true and I'm playing Paper Jam, and I am looking at Paper Jam's blocks and then want to scroll to see a Paper Jam enemy, scrolling up all the way past Dream Team's blocks is a substantial obstacle.)

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: August 25, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Salmancer (talk) Just think of it as World 9, or World 8 if you discount the Blimport.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) ...I don't think we follow the proposal's logic, but we've got our own reason this has been irking us. Simply put, aside from the reuse of names and some assets, the two Neo Bowser Castles from Dream Team and Paper Jam are effectively different locales. They have different maps, different enemies, different items inside them, different gimmicks, and while I'm admittedly not familiar with Paper Jam's story, in Dream Team, it was jointly created by Bowser and Amtasma, is black and purple, and at the end of the game, it falls out of the sky, rubbles itself, and then explodes for good measure. The page on Paper Jam asserts that game's Neo Bowser's Castle is just, Bowser's Castle, but it got launched into the sky--and looking at that game's Bowser's Castle, the similar visuals are pretty much only an indoors thing. While we are, self-admittedly, not that knowledgable on Paper Jam, and we'd be glad to know if we missed anything, what we've seen suggests that it's only the Dream Team Bowser's Castle "in-name only", as it were.

Oppose

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - ...what? Sorry, but that argument doesn't make any sense at all to me.
2. Sparks (talk) Both castles are "new" versions of Bowser's Castle and they're also both exclusive to Mario & Luigi. They're also very similar in general, so I don't think a split is needed.
3. Nightwicked Bowser (talk) Per the proposal that merged them, the whole "world" argument also works the same way in Paper Jam.
4. Tails777 (talk) I did support merging these two castles and while Camwoodstock's reasonings of them being different locations with different layouts, different enemies and different gimmicks is a viable reason to split them, examples like Toad Town and Bowser's Castle (courts, stadiums and racetracks not included) are perfect examples of how these work as one article. Partners in Time laid Toad Town to ruin and it's still merged regardless. So I feel this is fine staying merged.
5. Arend (talk) Various iterations of regular Bowser's Castle have also been merged into a single article, as previously stated by the proposal that merged both Neo Bowser's Castles in the first place. The only exceptions I can think of are the Bowser Castle race courses across the Mario Kart series, but these are treated as different race courses (aka levels) rather than a single location.
6. YoYo (talk) It'd be insane to make this proposal and then not request every single individual Bowser's Castle to be split into their own articles afterwards, but that's probably not gonna happen, which says more than enough for why this is not a good idea. Per all.
7. PrincessPeachFan (talk): They're the exact same thing.
8. ThePowerPlayer (talk) Per all from the previous proposal and the opposition from the current one.

Comments

Maybe a visual clarifies things?

• World 2 (New Super Mario Bros. 2): World 2-1 (New Super Mario Bros. 2), World 2-2 (New Super Mario Bros. 2), World 2-3 (New Super Mario Bros. 2)...
• Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team): Pink Pi'illo (number?) of Dreamy Mushrise Park, Area A of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle, Area B of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle, Area C of Dreamy Neo Bowser Castle...

I feel that this relationship justifies splitting the page, similarly to pages like Peach's Castle (world) for the castle's New Super Mario Bros U. appearance as a world, and Mushroom Kingdom (Super Mario Odyssey) for the kingdom's appearance as a kingdom in Super Mario Odyssey. This also means it's not really for every single Bowser's Castle ever, because those are less "worlds" and more "location in one particular world, setting of one or two courses". Salmancer (talk) 19:43, August 11, 2024 (EDT)

Toad Town is also in both Partners in Time and Bowser's Inside Story and we're not making Toad Town (Partners in Time) and Toad Town (Bowser's Inside Story) because they can be seen as a "world" structure like a platformer. Tails777 Talk to me!

If Yoshi's Island (location) can't even be split up in the "Yo'ster Island" iteration (Super Mario World, Super Mario RPG) and the "Yoshi's Island" iteration (the Yoshi franchise as of Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island), then why should the Neo Bowser's Castles be split? And even if we were allowed to split the two islands based on their Japanese name, not only would the "Yo'ster Island" iteration still cover both the Super Mario RPG and Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time iterations of this world (both being RPGs), but also the original Super Mario World one (a platformer!) rend (talk) (edits) 09:00, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

Mm, sorry but no. They're literally the exact same thing and the only real difference is who created them but even then that's not much as Bowser directly created the castle in the games. Also, the visuals don't exactly count either.
— The preceding unsigned comment was added by PrincessPeachFan (talk).

So, uh, having bothered to look up a longplay which we probably should've done from the start ngl, I have some. News. For certain. Looking at the cutscene where "Neo Bowser's Castle" is introduced, turns out that the "Neo Bowser's Castle" of Paper Jam is... literally the exact same as that game's Bowser's Castle, but lifted up into the sky, and the emblem becomes a different color as well. This is in pretty stark contrast to the purple and black and pointy castle in Dream Team, for one thing, but for two, we don't even know what to make of that. The entire opposition seems to be under the impression that this is 1) distinct from the ordinary Bowser's Castle, and 2) is similar to the Dream Team Neo Bowser's Castle. When, if anything, the current rules would suggest we split the Neo Bowser's Castle from Paper Jam... and merge it back to the standard Bowser's Castle article. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 17:19, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

Did you miss the point I brought up in the original proposal where I said "Bowser's Castle becoming a flying weapon is a recurring trait throughout the Mario & Luigi series?" Because that's the main reason for it, and basing it off AlphaDream's own naming distinctions given in-game. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:27, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

Bowser's Castle has gone airborne in other games--like, at least as far back as the first Paper Mario. Really, outside of the name, being owned by Bowser, and the property of "being in the sky at some point", just about everything else between the two Neo Bowser Castles is different in terms of narrative. Neo Bowser's Castle Dream Team was made in the middle of the game, whereas Neo Bowser's Castle Paper Jam was always around from the start as that game's resident normal Bowser's Castle. Like, it's literally the exact same as Paper Jam's Neo Bowser's Castle, except the emblem is green and not red, and also it's on the ground and not the sky. Also, you actually enter Neo Bowser's Castle in Dream Team once it's on the ground--in Paper Jam, you (re)visit there when it's still in the sky. And, of course, one looks like Darigan Citadel from Neopets, and the other looks like... just, the ordinary Bowser's Castle, but it's on top of a purple drone now. We don't exactly agree with "the visuals don't count" when they're not only so radically different, but the Neo Bowser's Castle of Paper Jam resembles the ordinary Bowser's Castle of Paper Jam that much. We can't exactly think of many compelling reasons beyond the name to split up coverage of the Paper Jam (Neo) Bowser's Castle between two articles like this, let alone cram it partway into the Dream Team Neo Bowser's Castle article given how little they have in common beyond the name and more surface-level stuff. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 17:35, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

I've played through both games, I know how they are. I will point out that the actual explorable part of Neo Castle in PJ is more similar to the explorable part of Neo Castle in DT than the explorable part of Bowser Castle in PJ. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:52, August 12, 2024 (EDT)

How are the differences between the Neo Bowser Castles more split-worthy than the differences between all the regular Bowser's Castles? Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 18:48, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

To be blunt here, we would sooner take merging the Neo Bowser Castles into the regular Bowser's Castle article than entertain the idea that the Paper Jam Neo Bowser's Castle isn't just, that game's Bowser's Castle, on a purple drone platform, and with the emblem a different color. To us, it makes about as much sense as splitting the information on Peach's Castle in Paper Mario 64 into its own article between where it currently is, and then making a separate "Peach's Castle (Paper Mario)" article for it when it's lifted into the ground... and then merging that hypothetical article into Peach's Castle (world). The differences between Paper Jam's Neo Bowser Castle and Paper Jam's normal Bowser Castle are, quite literally, in-name only; as far as the game's story is concerned, they are the exact same castle, except before and after being lifted into the sky. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 19:58, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, but the maps are different. The explorable areas are different. You are mostly exploring the aforementioned "purple drone platform" in gameplay. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:26, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

The maps and explorable areas of Peach's Castle in Paper Mario 64 are different when it's in the sky versus when it's not too. In fact, there's a good few rooms of the castle you only get to visit during the chapter intermissions. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 20:48, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, but there's the same basic layout there, and they are internally stored as the same location with different lighting. I don't recall that being the case for Bowser's Castle in MLPJ. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 20:54, August 14, 2024 (EDT)

Split the Paper Jam information, Neo

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

Split 8-0
This is excruciatingly overdue, and we were reminded of this tonight.

Picture this: Imagine if, for Paper Mario's incarnation of Bowser's Castle, we instead merged its information directly into Peach's Castle, and treated them as ontologically the same castle. Now imagine that, for some reason, Peach's Castle in the prologue/epilogue had its own page, treating it as ontologically different from Bowser's Castle or Peach's Castle. Now imagine we only do this because, in this hypothetical world, the lifted version of Peach's Castle shares the name "Peach's Fortress" with some other prior game, and so we merge both it and Bowser's Castle directly into it.

Congratulations: You have invented the state of the Neo Bowser Castle page, which has two separate castles entirely merged together over a single line of dialogue, while the Paper Jam Bowser's Castle has its own article pretending it has nothing to do with it. So, pardon our tone, but... What?

Outside of asset re-use (which, this is a middle-era 3DS Alpha Dream Mario & Luigi game, you kind of have to accept that asset re-use is going to happen frequently and it's not for any particular narrative purposes), the Neo Bowser Castle in Dream Team and Paper Jam are almost entirely different outside of the re-used assets, both narrative-wise and functionally. Dream Team's castle was summoned entirely by Bowser and Antasma as its own, bespoke castle separate from Bowser's standard Castle in that game, whereas Paper Jam's is the exact same castle as that game's standard Bowser's Castle, just being carried on top of a purple drone doohickey; in fact, it's only called "Neo Bowser Castle" specifically a handful of times, to our awareness, namely in the cutscene where it's first introduced.

There was a previous proposal to split these, which failed on the grounds of both re-used assets (which we've previously stated we don't find to be a compelling reason), and that, well, we merge all the Bowser's Castles, so why don't we merge the Neo Bowser Castles too? It's worth noting that we no longer do that, haven't done so for months at this point, and this decision has been extremely non-contentious. We think it's high time to apply this logic to the Neo Bowser Castles. While yes, the comments of the original proposal expressed some skepticism that it would be worth it since this would be a split of exactly 2 pages maximum, this small size didn't stop Yoshi's Island from also being split without any particular contention.

All that said, the split would be fairly simple; this page just becomes a disambiguation, and we split its information between two pages: one named "Neo Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Dream Team)", and one named "Neo Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)"

Proposer: Camwoodstock (talk)
Deadline: June 11, 2025, 23:59 GMT Closed early on June 4, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Split to Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team) & Neo Bowser Castle (Paper Jam) (The power of Neo!)

1. Camwoodstock (talk) Per proposal.
2. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal and my vote on the proposal that split other recurring RPG locations.
3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per proposal.
4. Mettaton (EX | NEO) G.. GUESS I WANT TO SPLIT THIS PAGE...?
5. Neo Evie Castle (talk) per proposal.
6. technetium (talk) it's a beautiful day outside. birds are singing... flowers are blooming... on days like these, castles like neo... should be split in two.
7. rykitu (talk) turn around castle, it would be a crime. if i had to go back on the promise that i made for neo it'll step over that line, realize friend you’re going to have a split time.
8. Scrooge200 (talk) Having these merged while trying to get information makes playing Paper Jam even more of a painful experience. Split 'em up.

Comments (DIDN'T YOU KNOW [Neo] IS FAMOUS FOR ITS [Legibility]!?)

so Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam) would be one of the two articles this info is split to, right? — eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 00:15, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

We did consider adding an option to split the Paper Jam information off to Bowser's Castle (Paper Jam), but ultimately decided against it in favor of the option of what's probably just easiest; splitting the two Neo Bowser Castles off to their own "Neo Bowser Castle pages, whether or not they're ontologically the same as a different castle. We could add it if there's enough demand, though. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 00:28, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

The final sentence of this proposal is typed incorrectly then, right? It says, "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Dream Team)" and, "Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)" Salmancer (talk) 00:32, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

Whoops, forgot the Neos. Our bad. ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 00:36, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

Would this not already fall under the prior proposal that split the RPG versions of the normal Bowser's Castle? Have a generalized page for the recurring subject, then game-specific ones for the layout and items and such? I disagree with the notion they are treated as an inherently "different" thing (after all that's why I had them merged, having played through both games and seeing them as having a near-identical role), but the recurring RPG location thing I think'd count for it. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 01:32, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

We did ask during the original proposal, but Neo Bowser's Castle ultimately wasn't put under that proposal's scope due to concerns about it impacting too few pages (nevermind that Yoshi Island also got the treatment despite impacting an equal amount of pages, but oh well. ;P) ~Camwoodstock ( talk ☯ contribs ) 01:45, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

the difference between Yoshi's Island and Neo Bowser's Castle is that Yoshi's Island has appeared outside of RPGs and has appeared as a minor capacity, so the "split RPG major appearances" clause didn't apply in the exact same way. i also happen to not be as familiar with the M&L series, so i held off on making a proposal on something i didn't understand. — eviemaybe (talk / contributions) 11:01, May 28, 2025 (EDT)

Merge with Bowser's Castle

This talk page proposal has already been settled. Please do not edit this section or its subsections. If you wish to discuss the article, please do so in a new section below the proposal.

Do not merge 1-7
Man, the proposals on this page just keep coming. Four in a row? Here's an idea, we delete this page so there can't be any more!

Okay, okay, just foolin. But I think after Neo Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Dream Team) and Neo Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam) were split from this page, it doesn't offer much of anything of value as a page separate from Bowser's Castle. In fact, I think this page's existence is a net negative for the website. Harsh but true. Why? Well, think about what Bowser's Castle stands for. It's Bowser's iconic spiky fortress, and the setting of the conclusion of most Super Mario series games. It's only not the setting of the conclusion if it's instead the setting of a fake-out conclusion before the real conclusion. Its got lava, the toughest platforming outside of the post-game worlds, and itself ends on a battle with the fire breathing turtle himself.

Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team) is just the interpretation of Bowser's Castle in Mario & Luigi Dream Team. Yes it's purple. Yes it flies. Yes it shoots lasers. Yes it has a forcefield. Yes it gets created mid-game rather than being an extant building before the events of the game. But it's still the spiky fortress that concludes the game, complete with lava, tricky platforming, and a Bowser boss fight. It's an more deviant take on Bowser's Castle than most, but it's still a Bowser's Castle. And because of this article, let's call it "Neo Bowser Castle (overview)", Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team) is currently not a iteration of Bowser's Castle. It's not on that article's iterations lists. It's like down the family tree, first you have to go through this "hub article", then you reach the iterations of Neo Bowser Castle, which includes Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team). That's silly, because Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team) is just the version of Bowser's Castle featured in Mario & Luigi: Dream Team. You should 100% be able to use the iterations list of Bowser's Castle to reach Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team), and the same goes for Neo Bowser Castle (Paper Jam).

Why am I discounting all of differences between Bowser's Castle and Neo Bowser Castle? I'm not. Or rather, I think Neo Bowser Castle (Dream Team) and Neo Bowser Castle (Paper Jam) on its own is enough to communicate nuanced variation in concept, especially with a paired write up on Bowser's Castle#Mario & Luigi: Dream Team and Bowser's Castle#Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam. The two sections are even right next to each other, and our series based organization ensures any future Neo Bowser Castles will be very close by. But the Dream Team section of Bowser's Castle is basically blank, mostly because the information that would be on it is instead on Neo Bowser Castle (Overview). As for Paper Jam... , *bzzt*. Wait, what? Okay, I have to blockquote this:

Main article: Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam)
In Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, Bowser's Castle appears as an area located near Doop Doop Dunes.

That is the entirety of the Paper Jam section of Bowser's Castle, and it outright pretends Neo Bowser Castle doesn't exist. This means you can't go from it to Neo Bowser Castle (Paper Jam) without a pitstop at Bowser's Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam). Boy, the Paper Jam section of Neo Bowser Castle (Overview) would be a great fit for Bowser's Castle to explain how the same castle has two different states in the same game, right?

Plus, think about this. If we're willing to make an "hub article" for a Bowser's Castle variant with a different name that appears twice, that means we'd have to do the same for any Bowser's Castle variant with a different name that appears twice. If Bowser gets transformed into a castle again? Whoops, Castle Bowser (Overview) has to exist now. If Bowser takes over Peach's Castle again? Welp, time to make Peach's Castle (Bowser occupied) (Overview)! (Peach's Castle is Bowser's Castle, The Final Battle (New Super Mario Bros. U) is in Category:Bowser's castles.) Bowser builds another amusement park? Then say hello to Bowser Land (Castle) (Overview)! (Article text says it's a Bowser's Castle.) This is sorted from least to most likely, and amusement park world is tropey enough that I fully expect Bowser Land 2 in our forseeable future. If one of these happens, then all the issues of the current Bowser's Castle/Neo Bowser Castle divide get passed down to one of these variants. We should avoid letting precedent pincer us into making link structure on the wiki worse in the future, and deleting Neo Bowser Castle (Overview) will help do that.

EDIT: Heck, we don't even have to get that hypothetical. Someone's going to do World Castle round 2, because making Bowser's Castle a full world is a basic yet satisfying twist, and who really wants to write World Castle (overview)?

This proposal is simple to enact. Add both per game Neo Bowser Castles to the iterations list on Bowser's Castle, perhaps under a "Neo Bowser Castle" if we're really that pedantic about it having a separate identity in the same way the Yoshi's Island (location) article has a header in its iterations list. Then move the sections from Neo Bowser Castle (Overview) to Bowser's Castle, modifying the prose as necessary to make it fit. Finally, move Neo Bowser Castle's NOILs to Bowser's Castles NOILs under a Neo Bowser Castle header. Finally, either turn this page into a disambiguation page or a redirect to the Mario & Luigi series section of Bowser's Castle.

Proposer: Salmancer (talk)
Deadline: June 24, 2025, 23:59 GMT

Merge (Neo Bowser Castle, take 4)

1. Salmancer (talk) If AlphaDream wanted to have a second general Bowser's Castle article on Super Mario Wiki, it should have been called Antasma's Castle, and its ruins should have randomly popped up in Paper Jam. Neither thing happened, so there should only be one general Bowser's Castle article and one article for each iteration.

Status Quo (Neo Bowser Castle, take 4)

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - If someone searches "Neo Bowser Castle," they're wondering about the flying castle and how it differs from the standard, not about the castle in general. Honestly, I'm not terrifically comfortable in how Baby Bowser's Castle is merged to Bowser's Castle, but that at least has a history of being simply named "Bowser's Castle." Why make information more difficult to find and bloat the Bowser's Castle article further with something that the games consider a distinct subject? This would be like a full merge from Bowser's Villa, or merging Luigi's NEW Mansion with Luigi's Mansion (location) or Super Peach's Castle of Fury with Peach's Castle. Additionally, other recurring RPG-only locations exist; if Star Hill got split, I would oppose it being turned into a disambig.
2. Camwoodstock (talk) Obviously, if we thought a merge to Bowser's Castle made sense, we would've suggested that in our original split. Yes, there are fewer Neo Bowser Castles than normal ones! That's... Kind of their thing. "Neo Bowser Castle" is treated separately from ordinary Bowser Castle in Dream Team (and to a far lesser extent, Paper Jam, even if it doesn't make a lick of sense ontologically); if our memory serves us, we don't see an ordinary Bowser Castle in Dream Team, or at least long enough for it to really matter, and Neo Bowser Castle explicitly exists separately from Bowser's usual Castle. Also, the idea of making this redirect to the Mario & Luigi section of Bowser Castle is very questionable, and would only make sense if all M&L titles used "Neo Bowser Castle", for Bowser's standard castle... Not only does Paper Jam throw a monkey wrench into that by having those be ontologically identical, not only does Dream Team throw a spanner into that by having its Neo Bowser Castle exist entirely separate from the ordinary Bowser Castle, but Superstar Saga, Partners in Time, and Bowser's Inside Story have this funny thing called "not having a Neo Bowser Castle at all." No, they don't get retroactively renamed in the remakes, though we can't blame someone for guessing if they would with how much asset reuse they have.
3. Hewer (talk) Per all, they wouldn't have called them "Neo" if they were just meant to be regular Bowser's Castles. I also think your hypothetical slippery slope argument is weak considering you're listing levels and worlds, which always get split anyway, and we don't have "World 1 (overview)". And Peach's Castle doesn't even have a distinct name from Peach's Castle, so I have no idea what you're getting at there.
4. Sorbetti (talk) Per all.
5. Altendo (talk) Per Camwoodstock.
6. Power Flotzo (talk) Per all.
7. EvieMaybe (talk) per all

Comments (Will this be the final word on Neo Bowser Castle?)

To kick off the comments section, no I do not think there is any value in having a search for Neo Bowser Castle result in a full page rather than a disambiguation or the Mario & Luigi section of Bowser's Castle. If we really insist that you should be able to read something about Neo Bowser Castle directly upon looking up Neo Bowser Castle, the answer is to add a preamble under the Mario & Luigi series section of Bowser's Castle before any of the games. Salmancer (talk) 09:28, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

Bowser's Villa as a distinct page is probably protected by an extension of MarioWiki:New articles's opinion on levels. It's basically the same thing as World Castle, which also is not being merged with Bowser's Castle. And if there is a second Super Peach's Castle of Fury, of that exact name (somehow?), wouldn't it just share the page with the original Super Peach's Castle of Fury? Well, unless we start splitting iterations of boss fights, but we haven't started that yet. Salmancer (talk) 10:48, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

Then why should this, which keeps a distinct name (as given by the same dev team a mere few years apart as part of the same game series, so definitely intentional) whether it's a separate location (as most Bowser Castles are heavily implied to be anyway) or a form of that game's main castle, be considered as completely interchangeable with said "main" castle? I bring up Star Hill again, which includes information as to how it differs between game-to-game on a generalized basis, and ideally would even if it too got split. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:03, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

I don't see a Bowser's Villa (Super Princess Peach) and a Bowser's Villa (game title) reducing Bowser's Villa to a list of times Bowser's Villa has appeared in the franchise. I think what you're saying is that merging Neo Bowser Castle makes and not Bowser's Villa makes Neo Bowser Castle inherently lesser than Bowser's Villa, right? I think people shouldn't equate wiki organization to value or distinctiveness. Neo Bowser Castle still has two articles in this arrangement, with names that are not "Bowser's Castle (game title)". I argue that the point is still made, and if we really want to emphasize the name reoccurance, I'd do so in either one of both of the Mario & Luigi section of Bowser's Castle and the intro of Neo Bowser Castle (Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam). And Star Hill hasn't been split because there isn't enough content to split the page to begin with, as noted in the proposal that split the recurring locations that eventually led to splitting Neo Bowser Castle in the first place. I'm sure Star Hill will stay one article until its random comeback tour. Salmancer (talk) 11:17, June 10, 2025 (EDT)

The issue I have is you're redirecting it to a mere part of a greater whole rather than its own distinct subject here. I'd rather be able to see "what is Neo Bowser Castle and ONLY Neo Bowser Castle" than "what is Neo Bowser Castle lumped with several other non-Neo Bowser Castles" if I deliberately searched the words "Neo Bowser Castle." Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 11:42, June 10, 2025 (EDT)