MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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==Writing guidelines==
==Writing guidelines==
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==New features==
==New features==
''None at the moment.''
===Add parameters for listing related groups to character and species infoboxes===
Alright, I know the "Affiliation(s)" parameter for these was deprecated many years ago for being [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/2/26/Mario1c.jpg dumb], but hear me out.


==Removals==
A few years after [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/31#Remove the "Affiliation" parameter from infoboxes|this proposal]] passed, this wiki added a [[Template:Group infobox|group infobox]] for linking to and listing members, member species, and leaders of a group, similar to how the species infobox lists variants, notable members, etc of the species. Thing is, unlike the character and species infoboxes that are designed to link to each other (character's species/species' notable members, species variants/species variants of, and so on), group infoboxes are a one-way street as it currently stands. So, I propose that parameters be added to these infoboxes so they can list the groups they belong to. And to be clear, this parameter would '''only''' be used for groups, so we get none of that "Mario is 'affiliated' with his brother and sometimes Bowser" nonsense. This has a much more specific purpose. Right now this wiki doesn't really have lists of groups that characters and species belong to, you have to look through all the articles for groups to find that out, so I think these lists would be worth having.
''None at the moment.''


==Changes==
I've come up with two options:
=== Have stricter policies for one-off generic species characters  ===
*Option 1: [[Template:Character infobox]] and [[Template:Species infobox]] get a "member of" parameter, which would be used to link to groups they are, well, a member of. [[Goomba]] and the like would link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[Vivian]] would link to [[Three Shadows]], etc. This parameter would be used to list both memberships and leadership roles (the latter could maybe be distinguished by adding "(leader)" next to the link).
[[File:Chanterelle.png|thumb|left|We have an article for [[Chanterelle (The Super Mario Bros. Movie)|this one Toad]] with very little information. Why? Because they have a name. Yep.]]
*Option 2: these infoboxes would also get a separate "Leader of" parameter. [[Bowser]] would use this to link to [[Bowser's Minions]], [[King K. Rool]] would use this to link to [[Kremling Krew]], [[Captain Syrup]] would use this to link to [[Black Sugar Gang]], characters and species-characters would link to the [[:Category:baseball teams|baseball teams]] they lead, etc.
What a mouthful of a title, but I don't know what to call this. This proposal concerns the articles [[Flaky]], [[Jerry (Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story)|Jerry]], and [[Chanterelle (The Super Mario Bros. Movie)|Chanterelle]]. I'll add more if users keep bringing in more. The gist is that these are minor characters based on [[Flurry|their]] [[Magikoopa|respective]] [[Toad (species)|species]], which doesn't sound like a bad idea initially. Still, their articles aren't that useful. Flaky is a ''terrible'' article that is horribly padded on a minor Flurry and even explains things not relevant to them (I'm not even sure if the character has official pronouns). It also speculates that they appear in certain scenes, ''which is a bad sign''. Jerry's article is '''three sentences long''' and could see a merge with the regular Magikoopa article. And Chanterelle is a briefly seen Toad who appears for a few seconds. The justification for these articles is that they are named characters and should get articles unless you're [[List_of_implied_characters#Johnson_.28X-Naut.29|Johnson]].  


This proposal isn't concerned about merging all these characters at this very moment; that can come in many different proposals. Instead, '''I suggest a [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Incidental characters|policy]] to prevent these articles from coming into play here.''' With this policy, '''some articles that feature a rather generic representative of a species with very few character traits that would instead get a merge with their species articles or at least in a list.''' Currently, there doesn't seem to some policy that is against the idea of having these characters aside from the [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|Minor NPCs]] policy which really only covers conjecturally named NPCs and not characters who ''are'' named but only have very few traits and not even a unique design. However, their redirects will still have categories so that users can know the different members of their species when browsing them. In a perfect world, [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Examples of characters being merged with their species#The_Super_Mario_Bros._Super_Show.21|Flaky would get a mention in Flurry's article]], [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Examples_of_characters_being_merged_with_their_species#Mario_.26_Luigi:_Bowser.27s_Inside_Story_.2F_Mario_.26_Luigi:_Bowser.27s_Inside_Story_.2B_Bowser_Jr..27s_Journey|we put Jerry in Magikoopa]], [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Examples_of_characters_being_merged_with_their_species#Toad_.28species.29|and we would merge Chanterelle with Toad (species).]] It's worth noting that we have recently been creating history articles so that they can go there instead. An argument users may use is that they are named characters and, therefore, must get articles no matter what. So what I want to tell you is this: '''How helpful are these articles?''' Sure, they are pretty interesting one-off characters, but are people dying to see a whole article on them?
EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, the parameters would be displayed in a two-column list similar to the species infobox parameters, and would only be used for links (e.g. groups that actually have articles, and not just any arbitrary category people come up with).


Imagine if one Goomba was named Bob in one cutscene and had no other traits in some random ''Super Mario'' game. Then, one day, we made an article describing him and mentioning his bare-bones character traits. I don't know about you, ''but I learned nothing from it.'' We even merged [[Talk:Koopaphobia|Koopaphobia]], a fictional phobia, with [[Indiana Joe]] because he's the kingpin for that phobia, the entire thing is played as a joke, and nothing is getting lost by integrating it with him. Our lord and savior, [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Junior_(II)|Pink Donkey Kong Jr.]], is now merged with who his [[Donkey Kong Jr.|counterpart was]], and not everything was lost through the merge. [[Cowboy Jed]] has a son who does not get a separate article, but we mention it in his article. And all three ''[[List of Boos in Luigi's Mansion|Luigi's]] [[List of Boos in Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon|Mansion]]'' [[List of Boos in Luigi's Mansion 3|games]] have lists for each of the named Boos. We aren't missing much by merging these fellas; no offense to them, especially the pink little guy.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}}<br>
'''Deadline''': June 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT


Note that we aren't merging these articles right now but rather coming up with a policy that allows us to integrate some generic representatives of a species with their species articles. That way, we don't have to create concise articles that say nothing. After this, we can create proposals to merge certain articles that feature a named character with very little traits that make them unique from their species. It is worth noting that if they do return in a later work and have tons of new character traits, they ''can'' finally get their articles. It's the curse that set [[Ashley]] and [[Red (WarioWare series)|Red]] free.
====Option 1====
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} First choice per proposal.


'''EDIT 12/1/23:''' I have some new clarifications, as well as some new additions as well. [[Baby_Penguin#Super_Mario_64_.2F_Super_Mario_64_DS|Firstly, Tuxie is yet another case of us merging a rather minor character.]] So there is that for you. Lastly, some new additions people have suggested:
====Option 2====
*[[Kuribo]]: Member of some Sockops who is part of a group of character rather than his own.
#{{User|Dive Rocket Launcher}} Second choice per proposal.
*[[Gary (Super Paper Mario)|Gary the Goomba]]: [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Goomba_.28Super_Paper_Mario_character.29|Infamous for his best friend]] [[Talk:Goomba_(Super_Paper_Mario_character)|at one point having a hilarious article.]] Just some generic grunt really.
*[[Socially Awkward Piranha Plant]]: Literally a goddamn meme.
*[[Johnson (Super Paper Mario)|Johnson the Koopa Troopa]]: Generic Koopa Troopa with no notable traits other than his name.
*[[Hammer Bro captain]]: Uses a conjectural name. Even if this proposal failed, you can make a good argument for not even needing this article.
*[[Private Koopa]]: Not too sure about this but the description doesn't convince me otherwise. Just a secret agent Koopa who doesn't even use a unique design.


The only one I did not include was [[Red Shy Guy (character)|Red Shy Guy]] and that's mainly because of his unique history section. Therefore, I don't think it's that big of a deal. That being said, the name is quite generic, so there's that. I admit I haven't played the RPG games, so there's that. I'm also not putting Izzy on here because he's connected to some event. Sure, his article is pretty short but to claim he's an incidental character is incorrect. At the very most, he could be merged with The Play Nintendo Show and at the very least, he could stay. On another note, I have finally made a conceptual [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Incidental characters|policy]] for what it could look like if this proposal is a success. I'll occasionally update this when given certain suggestions.
====Do nothing====
 
#{{User|DrBaskerville}} Whereas a nice idea in theory, I fear we'll see a repeat of everything that led to the previous iteration of this parameter getting deleted in the first place. Unless there will be heavy patrolling of this parameter, which seems unlike given how widespread the [[Template:Character infobox]] is, I don't trust leaving it to chance that it will be used responsibly and we won't end up with weird things like Mario being "member of" some ridiculous things like "Mario Bros.", or, just as worse, a long, long, exhaustive list of every organization Mario has ever participated in, e.g. [[Excess Express]] passengers, [[Mario Kart 8]] racers (etc., etc.), and so on. Mario is obviously a "worse case" example, but the principles apply to virtually any character who has multiple appearances.  In the [[Goomba]] example that you provided, for instance, not all Goombas are part of Bowser's Minions. What about the Goombas in [[Goomba Village]] or [[Rogueport]] or any of the other various non-Bowser-aligned Goombas. You'd just have to get really, really into the weeds to make specific rules for parameter usage, and it will be a pain to enforce them.
'''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br>
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per DrBaskerville.
'''Deadline''': December 7, 2023, 23:59 GMT
 
====Support====
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Per proposal
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Sparks}} These characters, especially Jerry are just articles of very short information because they are "unique" compared to their species. Per all.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per all.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all; I've been wondering for a while why Gary from ''Super Paper Mario'' gets to stay when he's even less of a character than his unnamed Goomba friend that got merged with the prime Goomba article a while ago, also due to proposal.
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per Sparks and others.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Per proposal, but especially Arend--why [[Gary (Super Paper Mario)]] keeps his article but we have long since merged his unnamed partner that was ''more substantial than him'' is beyond us. It just seems kinda silly to have all these full articles for one-off characters with absolutely zero distinctions to them beyond their name, and while there's a few notable exceptions that hold key relevancy to part of a game's plot (such as, say, [[Bob-omb (Paper Mario: The Origami King)]], a character where a lot of the point is that he is entirely indistinguishable but ''trying'' to be unique through his actions), they are absolutely few and far between and you can count them on basically one hand.
<s>#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Makes total sense to me. Gary, come home... to the main Goomba article...</s><br>
<s>#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I've adressed Koopa Captain not so long ago, and this proposal pretty much sums it up, so definitely up for it. Per proposed.</s>
 
====Oppose====
#{{User|Mario}} Oppose mostly on technicality: there are too vague of provisions on this proposal. This proposal identifies an issue which I agree with. But it doesn't outline a clear method of action to take besides "delete articles of subjects that are too minor to justify a page". I believe deleting one-liner tiny pages of non-notable members clearly meant as a throwaway name to establish a world is already fairly standard wiki practice, but admittedly inefficient (you either hope your talk page comment gets enough replies to swiftly delete or you run a proposal that runs for two weeks that gets a pretty good consensus in like, under 24 hours). Also as this proposal mentions, several of these pages are being dealt with in talk pages more than a few times, such as named Scarescraper ghosts, "Koopaphobia", Pink Donkey Kong Jr., and whatnot. Enacting this proposal due to its vague provisions is going to be a challenge, and while the current examples are obvious, we may run into some articles that might bring up disagreements (Will the minor friendly NPCs in the Paper Mario games be affected? All? A few? Most? One example. People are already bringing up other examples in the comment section that just seems better off on case-by-case discussions) and we already have a bit of a backlog of these kinds of proposals. The proposal ends with "but rather coming up with a policy that allows us to integrate some generic representatives of a species with their species articles." What policy? Can we see a draft of it? Where will it go? I'd like to see what this policy entails in before the proposal is made.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Mario. I don't have a problem with these types of articles myself, but I'd rather have an addition to [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs]] that would allow for discretion that we can then address on a case-by-case basis instead of a blanket proposal like this.
#{{User|Axis}} Even with the updated proposal, I do not believe the guidelines for which character should or shouldn't have a page are clear enough, the current policy is consistent and understandable for everyone. Would we need to go through every character and individually discuss every single minor NPC from this point on? Would minor NPCs from the Paper Mario series be merged now, and which ones should stay? I believe consistency takes precedent over redundancy.
#{{User|Hewer}} This only makes it harder to determine which characters do and don't get merged and generally has the potential to make it harder to find information. I think the logic behind the current policy that an individual name means an individual character is fine, and I don't really see what the problem is with having these articles, short or otherwise. Something being minor or obscure is a bad reason for it to not get a page in my opinion.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per Hewer.
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} I can agree to sorting out which minor, one-off characters deserve articles or not, especially with the meme in the examples, but I kinda have to agree with the opposition here. Per Mario and Axis notably.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
#{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all.
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all.
#{{User|YoYo}} Per all.


====Comments====
====Comments====
BIS also has [[Kuribo]], instead of logically redirecting to [[Goomba]]. In my opinion, it is hands-down the worst offender of this. Another thing all have in common is being throwaway names in group scenes, so no individual plot importance. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:20, November 30, 2023 (EST)


Would [[Gary (Super Paper Mario)|Gary (''Super Paper Mario'')]] also fit? His unnamed partner with about as little story relevance [[Talk:Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)|was merged]] into [[Goomba]] (now [[History of Goomba]]) a while back. We'd barely even have to change the [[History of Goomba#Super Paper Mario|''Super Paper Mario'']] entry in question — just replace the link on Gary's name with bold markup. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:48, November 30, 2023 (EST)
==Removals==
''None at the moment.''


@TheUndescribableGhost: I guess you could include [[Socially Awkward Piranha Plant]] too lol. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:53, November 30, 2023 (EST)
==Changes==
:Oh my gosh, that one NEEDS to be on BJAODN! The title alone is already hilarious. {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:58, November 30, 2023 (EST)
===Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary===
::The [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters|Characters]] page on BJAODN is getting quite long as-is, so I'm thinking about creating a "Minor/incidental characters" page for BJAODN with every character that ends up getting merged through this proposal as well as [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Goomba (Super Paper Mario character)|Goomba (''Super Paper Mario'' character)]] and [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Koopa (Mario Party DS)|Koopa (''Mario Party DS'')]]. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 16:06, November 30, 2023 (EST)
An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns [[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch)|''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' (Nintendo Switch)]], as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, ''very'' long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the ''TTYD'' remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and ''then'' go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?
:Eh, I'd say that one's as valid as [[Izzy]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:03, November 30, 2023 (EST)
::Izzy actually co-hosted an official Nintendo show with a series of episodes, though. Socially Awkward Piranha Plant is just an obscure meme only posted on Nintendo's social media once. I'm for merging Socially Awkward Piranha Plant, but Izzy can stay. [[User:Super Game Gear|Super Game Gear]] ([[User talk:Super Game Gear|talk]]) 16:41, November 30, 2023 (EST)
:::^I agree with you on merging Socially Awkward Piranha Plant. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 17:40, November 30, 2023 (EST)


Maybe also [[Johnson (Super Paper Mario)]] who was only named to be part of a running gag of the series. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:58, November 30, 2023 (EST)
I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like ''[[Super Mario All-Stars]]'' or ''[[Super Mario Advance]]'', which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the [[Super Mario RPG (Nintendo Switch)|''Super Mario RPG'']] or ''TTYD'' remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the ''[[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe]]'' page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original ''[[Mario Kart 8]]'', but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)
:On that note, the [[Hammer Bro captain]] (whose name is ''conjectural'') and [[Private Koopa]] could be included as well. {{User:Arend/sig}} 09:25, December 1, 2023 (EST)


Maybe [[Sunset Express Shy Guy]] too? His article is definitely more detailed than the others mentioned, so maybe he won't be affected by this proposal. He doesn't offer much to the story though unlike [[Bob-omb (Paper Mario: The Origami King)]], so who knows? {{User:Sparks/sig}} December 1, 2023, 09:37 (EDT)
My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.


@Supporters: Thank you so much for the help I'm getting on the proposal! I wasn't expecting this one to get a lot of support. Special thanks to Doc von Schmeltwick, SolemnStormcloud and Koopa con Carne for helping me here. And yes arend, I would totally love a section like that. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 12:29, December 1, 2023 (EST)
I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land|Kirby's Return to Dream Land]]'' and ''[[wikirby:Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe|Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe]]'' that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.


@Mario: Thanks for mentioning this as I may have not made it that clear. My intent is to enforce a policy that states that if a incidental character in question doesn't have enough traits to be notable on having a wiki article, they'll be merged elsewhere. Currently, there isn't a policy on this aside from a similar one regarding [[MarioWiki:Minor NPCs|Minor NPCs]] which judging by its description, would pretty much allow instances ''if'' that character has a name. The examples I provided where characters who don't have that many traits as of now to make an article actually useful. Keep in mind we aren't doing anything to the articles right now; that will happen if this proposal ends up being successful. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 13:34, December 1, 2023 (EST)
This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long ''TTYD'' section might, but something like ''Super Mario Advance'' could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.
:Isn't the scope of this proposal just kind of the general aim for this policy page anyway? There's already an implicit guideline concerning potential conjecturally-named NPCs: "if a minor NPC '''can be shown to have importance to the game or story'''" There even is an old revision to the page that might've been made to deal with these kinds of articles (although insufficient admittedly)[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Minor_NPCs&oldid=221393] but later removed to allow for user disrection[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=MarioWiki:Minor_NPCs&diff=232399&oldid=221393] (and yeah individual discretion seems like my way to go with these kinds of pages). So would this proposal effect changes to this page? {{User:Mario/sig}} 13:41, December 1, 2023 (EST)
::Well, that policy only mentions Minor NPCs that don't have a name. Plus, I also brought up two character are from a TV show and a movie who aren't NPCs by technically because they aren't video game characters. The Minor NPCs policy is rather vague on this and only exists to make sure Goomba (''Super Paper Mario'' character) doesn't happen. I guess I can look into what Waluigi Time suggested. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 14:08, December 1, 2023 (EST)


I do think that NPCs in standard gameplay of the first three Paper Mario games should be exempt, as they all have tattles that provide some insight into who they are. Not so much the ones from the glorified cutscenes in Castle Bleck. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:07, December 1, 2023 (EST)
'''Proposer''': {{User|DryKirby64}}<br>
:^Agreed. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:29, December 1, 2023 (EST)
'''Deadline''': June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT
:Which ones are you talking about? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 16:17, December 1, 2023 (EST)
::All of the named minor characters you can tattle on the field in PM, TTYD, and SPM. For instance, the people of [[Flipside]] who all have their own little personalities despite just being "talk to" characters. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:06, December 1, 2023 (EST)


@Axis Can you name character that you're confused about in regards to this proposal? [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 15:36, December 1, 2023 (EST)
====Support====
#{{User|DryKirby64}} As proposer.


====Oppose====


I'll have to address an error to one entry of the list of additional suggestions in your latest edit: "Johnson the Hammer Bro". Johnson is actually a Koopa Troopa, as stated in his article, and it's also made clear in the caption of the article image that Johnson is on the very ''right''. The Hammer Bro on the very ''left'' of the same image is actually still the [[Hammer Bro captain]] (he's Johnson's captain, which is the reason for his conjectural name in the first place). {{User:Arend/sig}} 15:44, December 1, 2023 (EST)
====Comments====
 
This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
@Hewer: "This only makes it harder to determine which characters do and don't get merged and generally has the potential to make it harder to find information." The proposal clearly mentions that it'll to be easy find certain information. For example, if one wants to find Flaky, they can type their name in the search box and be redirect to the section of the Flurry article. "and I don't really see what the problem is with having these articles, short or otherwise. Something being minor or obscure is a bad reason for it to not get a page in my opinion." The proposal is concerning articles that are so short, they aren't helpful in the slightest. Why is the [[Chanterelle (The Super Mario Bros. Movie)|Chanterelle]] article is totally fine to keep when they just say hi to Toad? If they were merged with the Toad species, nothing is getting lost here. Or Flaky in which the article tries speculating where they appear. I mentioned the hypothetical  Bob the Goomba example. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 16:16, December 1, 2023 (EST)
:Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
:Why is the Chanterelle article not fine to keep when they're a named character? If we were to merge [[Toad General]] with the Toad species, or [[Chef Toad]], or [[Toad]], no information would be lost. That doesn't mean it's necessarily the best choice for organisation. I don't see what the issue would be with the hypothetical Bob the Goomba - there not being much to say about a subject doesn't make it an invalid subject to have its own article. And Flaky's article should be improved to not have speculation, that's not really an argument for or against this proposal. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 17:31, December 1, 2023 (EST)
::It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. {{User:DrBaskerville/sig}} 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
::Toad General is fine to keep because he actually has some unique characteristics. Ditto for Chef Toad. Really, I can't make more arguments since you think it's perfectly okay to have these articles which is fine; I just can't really refute these points. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 17:48, December 1, 2023 (EST)
 
I'm going to try to review the proposed policy page [[User:TheUndescribableGhost/Incidental characters]]. I'd like to add that if an incidental character/object is recurring despite of a meager role and a simple subject of a running gag (say for instance, some Toad is called Sam in a random joke and then you see someone refer to Sam again in the ending of the game, or you see Sam being mentioned again in a sequel; this is like Johnson but you see "Sam" the couple of times he's mentioned) it probably should be also worth an article. Try not to be too disappointed if this proposal fails, okey dokey? Even if this doesn't pass, it's probably worth keeping these "notability" guidelines in mind and still attempt articles for deletions and whatnot with that framework. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:30, December 1, 2023 (EST)
:It's fine, Mario; I think it's really cool we're having these discussions and I can sorta see why people are hesitant because it's hard to draw the line. The Sam example I do agree with to some degree. [[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 10:52, December 2, 2023 (EST)
 
An idea just dawned upon me. Why don't we have a page titled "List of named incidental characters" or something like that where we can put the content of all of these pages, like what we have for implied characters? There wouldn't be any information lost, and the content of a named character wouldn't be awkwardly merged with the species article if it caused any problems. [[User:DrippingYellow|DrippingYellow]] ([[User talk:DrippingYellow|talk]]) 00:11, December 3, 2023 (EST)


==Miscellaneous==
==Miscellaneous==
''None at the moment.''
''None at the moment.''

Latest revision as of 19:28, June 10, 2024

Image used as a banner for the Proposals page
Current time:
Tuesday, June 11th, 05:42 GMT
Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken.
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!").
  • All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options.
  • For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

  1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
  2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
  3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
  5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
    • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
  6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
  7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
  8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
  10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
  11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
  12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
  13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
  14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
  15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
  16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
  17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
  18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "June 11, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

  1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPP discuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{settled TPP}}.
  2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
  3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
    • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
  4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
  5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)
Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)
Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)
Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)
Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)
Break alphabetical order in enemy lists to list enemy variants below their base form, EvieMaybe (ended May 21, 2024)
Consider "humorous" and other related terms as frequently misused in MarioWiki:Good writing, DrippingYellow (ended May 26, 2024)
^ Note: Requires action from admins.
Discourage "([Title] for [system])" disambiguation format when "([Title])" alone is sufficient to identify the subject, JanMisali (ended June 9, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)
Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)
Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)
Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)
Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)
Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)
Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)
Split Cheep Blimp (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door) and Zeeppelin from the blimp page, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended May 28, 2024)
Move the chef-based recipe lists (such as List of Tayce T. recipes) to game-based ones, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended June 9, 2024)
Merge Silver Credit and Gold Credit to Silver Card and Golden Card, respectively, Blinker (ended June 9, 2024)

Writing guidelines

None at the moment.

New features

Add parameters for listing related groups to character and species infoboxes

Alright, I know the "Affiliation(s)" parameter for these was deprecated many years ago for being dumb, but hear me out.

A few years after this proposal passed, this wiki added a group infobox for linking to and listing members, member species, and leaders of a group, similar to how the species infobox lists variants, notable members, etc of the species. Thing is, unlike the character and species infoboxes that are designed to link to each other (character's species/species' notable members, species variants/species variants of, and so on), group infoboxes are a one-way street as it currently stands. So, I propose that parameters be added to these infoboxes so they can list the groups they belong to. And to be clear, this parameter would only be used for groups, so we get none of that "Mario is 'affiliated' with his brother and sometimes Bowser" nonsense. This has a much more specific purpose. Right now this wiki doesn't really have lists of groups that characters and species belong to, you have to look through all the articles for groups to find that out, so I think these lists would be worth having.

I've come up with two options:

EDIT: In case it wasn't clear, the parameters would be displayed in a two-column list similar to the species infobox parameters, and would only be used for links (e.g. groups that actually have articles, and not just any arbitrary category people come up with).

Proposer: Dive Rocket Launcher (talk)
Deadline: June 14, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Option 1

  1. Dive Rocket Launcher (talk) First choice per proposal.

Option 2

  1. Dive Rocket Launcher (talk) Second choice per proposal.

Do nothing

  1. DrBaskerville (talk) Whereas a nice idea in theory, I fear we'll see a repeat of everything that led to the previous iteration of this parameter getting deleted in the first place. Unless there will be heavy patrolling of this parameter, which seems unlike given how widespread the Template:Character infobox is, I don't trust leaving it to chance that it will be used responsibly and we won't end up with weird things like Mario being "member of" some ridiculous things like "Mario Bros.", or, just as worse, a long, long, exhaustive list of every organization Mario has ever participated in, e.g. Excess Express passengers, Mario Kart 8 racers (etc., etc.), and so on. Mario is obviously a "worse case" example, but the principles apply to virtually any character who has multiple appearances. In the Goomba example that you provided, for instance, not all Goombas are part of Bowser's Minions. What about the Goombas in Goomba Village or Rogueport or any of the other various non-Bowser-aligned Goombas. You'd just have to get really, really into the weeds to make specific rules for parameter usage, and it will be a pain to enforce them.
  2. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per DrBaskerville.

Comments

Removals

None at the moment.

Changes

Include general game details on pages about remakes, and split "changes from the original" sections if necessary

An issue I've noticed with MarioWiki's coverage of remakes is that it doesn't explain much about the games themselves separate from the original games. This really concerns Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door (Nintendo Switch), as its "Changes from the original game" section is very, very long (over three-quarters the page, by my count), while not really detailing anything about the game itself. I do understand the "once and only once" policy means that they shouldn't have to be exact duplicates of the original game's pages, but it also leaves the pages about remakes feeling somewhat barebones; if someone wants to learn about the TTYD remake in a general sense, should they have to go back to the original game's page to learn about it first and then go to the remake's page to dig through all the tiny changes to find out what's new?

I imagine this policy stems from early in the wiki's history for games like Super Mario All-Stars or Super Mario Advance, which makes sense, as those games are generally simple and don't need much explaining to get the gist of how they work (and the "changes" parts of those pages are generally much smaller). For games like the Super Mario RPG or TTYD remakes, however, it's pretty difficult to understand what the games are like without referencing the original game's pages, and in turn that leaves coverage on the remakes feeling somewhat incomplete. I actually feel like the Mario Kart 8 Deluxe page is a good example of how to handle this. It still lists differences from the original Mario Kart 8, but also explains the game's contents in a standalone manner well. (Maybe adding the rest of the new items and course elements would help, but it at least has the full cast, vehicle selection, and course roster.)

My proposal is essentially to have each remake page include general coverage of the game itself, rather than just a list of changes. From there, if each page is too long with general details and lists of changes included, then the list of changes can be split into a sub-page.

I don't think the remake pages need to be exact copies of what the pages for each original game say, but having them be a more general overview of how each game works (covering notable changes as well) before getting into the finer differences may be helpful. I represent WiKirby, and this is what we do for WiKirby's remake pages: for example, we have separate pages for Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby's Return to Dream Land Deluxe that both give a good idea of what the game is like without fully relying on each other to note differences between them. I think this is useful for not having to cross-reference both pages if you want to know the full picture of what the game is like.

This is my first proposal on this wiki, and in general I'm not good at proposals even on my "home" wiki, but I hope this explains what I mean. I think you can decide on a page-by-page basis whether "changes from the original" sections need to split into sub-pages (for instance, the very long TTYD section might, but something like Super Mario Advance could get by leaving it on), but I think having the remake's pages be more detailed and less reliant on the originals would only be beneficial to the quality of the wiki's coverage. This is admittedly just a suggestion, so if it's not ideal I'm fine if someone else wants to refine it into something more workable.

Proposer: DryKirby64 (talk)
Deadline: June 17, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

  1. DryKirby64 (talk) As proposer.

Oppose

Comments

This is challenging. Whereas I agree with you that the TTYD remake page is basically just a list of changes (and that is something that should be addressed), I don't think that simply rewording most everything on the original TTYD page is the solution. When it comes to RPGs, its much more challenging to fully cover everything in the game because there's a long, detailed story and it would be senseless to reword what is on the original's page to include it on the remake's page. I presume that's what you mean by "general coverage of the game" anyway. This is a problem that should be addressed, but I don't know that either of these two options are the right solution. Sprite of Toadsworth Dr. Baskerville Paper Mario Book- MLPJ.png 18:51, June 10, 2024 (EDT)

Mmhm, that makes sense. Like I said, I don't think it should be an exact duplicate of the original page or a paraphrase of it either... Maybe there's a place where I could discuss this with other users to get a better idea of what others think should be done? I went to proposals first since that's what I'm most familiar with, but maybe it would be helpful to iron out the exact issue a bit more to get a better idea of what to do. DryKirby64 (talk) 19:21, June 10, 2024 (EDT)
It couldn't hurt to ask for some guidance from staff on the Discord / forums or research previous proposals to see if something similar has been discussed. You're right to identify this as an issue; I just wish I knew a better solution. Maybe someone will come along with a helpful comment, so I'd at least recommend leaving this proposal up to bring attention to the issue. Sprite of Toadsworth Dr. Baskerville Paper Mario Book- MLPJ.png 19:28, June 10, 2024 (EDT)

Miscellaneous

None at the moment.

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