MarioWiki:Proposals: Difference between revisions

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m (Cobold and Blitzwing made me understand why these shouldn't be merged, I get it now. Thanks you guys. Im removing this proposal, cause im the proposer and im allowed to remove it, and im doing so.)
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:I think we can all agree that the "No Real Name" idea's wrong. However, aren't shortcuts and general layouts the stuff of Walkthroughs and FAQs (as opposed to encyclopedias)? Items can easily be included in the individual sections which can be very detailed (just look at ''[[Super Paper Mario]]'''s chapter descriptions). A seperate section devoted to comparing and contrasting the world's enemies found in the various levels (organized as a chart) would probably be a greater asset than listing them per section (or per article, as things are now). - {{User|Walkazo}}
:I think we can all agree that the "No Real Name" idea's wrong. However, aren't shortcuts and general layouts the stuff of Walkthroughs and FAQs (as opposed to encyclopedias)? Items can easily be included in the individual sections which can be very detailed (just look at ''[[Super Paper Mario]]'''s chapter descriptions). A seperate section devoted to comparing and contrasting the world's enemies found in the various levels (organized as a chart) would probably be a greater asset than listing them per section (or per article, as things are now). - {{User|Walkazo}}
::I'm with Time Q on this point, but there's one thing I want to point out (In fact this idea has been swimming around in my mind for about a month now); I think both sides, Support and Oppose have many opinions and solutions that they need to express and respond to. Currently, the difference of votes is one or less. Tomorrow is the deadline of the proposal, by theory, but do you think it could be extended a few days, just so both sides can get their points cleared? I know this would create an exception, and it is not solely because I am opposing the proposal, but rather to create a chance for an actual concensus; something that may not happen in the next day or so. Would this be possible or not? {{User|Garlic Man}}
::I'm with Time Q on this point, but there's one thing I want to point out (In fact this idea has been swimming around in my mind for about a month now); I think both sides, Support and Oppose have many opinions and solutions that they need to express and respond to. Currently, the difference of votes is one or less. Tomorrow is the deadline of the proposal, by theory, but do you think it could be extended a few days, just so both sides can get their points cleared? I know this would create an exception, and it is not solely because I am opposing the proposal, but rather to create a chance for an actual concensus; something that may not happen in the next day or so. Would this be possible or not? {{User|Garlic Man}}
===''Mario Kart Arcade GP 2'' Special Items===
I propose that we should merge all the items for foreign Mario characters (such as Mametchi and Pac-Man) into one page, since we cannot expand them too much. They aren't really needed, and just keeping them on one page would be the right thing to do since most of them are stubs. For example, the [[Mame Block]] contains such little information, a template, and a picture. Pac-Man and stuff aren't even related to Mario, except for the fact that they did appear in MKAGP. But thats it, so why should we have all these new articles? We shouldn't be expanding on little articles like that, we should be focusing on more Mario related things such as [[Chocolate Island 2]] or stuff. I propose we merge all these items into one page.
'''Proposer:''' {{User|Super-Yoshi}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' 14:00, October 4, 2008
====Support====
#{{User|Super-Yoshi}} - Per my comment above.
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} -Per S-Y and my brief comment below.
#{{User|Paper Jorge}} - Per S-Y.
#{{User|Tucayo}} - Yeah, they should all be in one page and the old pages should be redirects
#{{User|Dark Lakitu 789}}Per S-Y No matter what we can't write more on the Pac-man page with out telling every game he has been in or tell about his charter saying some Mario related.
#{{User|Walkazo}} - Per all. Half the items don't have articles yet anyway.
#{{User|R.O.B 128}} - I've never played any of the GP games, but this is a good idea. You have my support.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Iggykoopa}} - The reason i oppose is because they are part of the mario universe just like mario vs wario
#{{User|Cobold}} - Pauline's items are a bad example of totally minor items without effect. They're generic. They can hardly be distinguished at all. The special items have a clear effect. That's something different. They're the same as a [[Giant Banana]].
#{{User|Garlic Man}} - Per Cobold.
#{{User|Stumpers}} - Point taken Cobold.  Something else that's bothered me is that, since I've voted, Super-Yoshi has confirmed that he did mean that foreign did refer to non-American countries, and I think that is a very bad precedent - Japanese versions of games and Japanese-only sources are very important.  New point: the reason we were merging SSB moves above was because SSB is of "tertiary importance" to the Mario series.  Mario Kart is of "primary importance".  Check out [[MarioWiki:Importance Policy]].
#{{User|The Gravitator}} - Just because these items can't be used by Mario characters doesn't mean they don't deserve articles. They play just as big a part in the game as the other items do.
#{{User|BeeBop!}} = Let's clear this up. As per TG, they deserve articles. It may be Mametchi's item, but Blinky can use it (If he/she chooses to). The Mario Kart Arcade GP 2 article and sub-articles are starting to come together, so why merge them or delete them?! The game is in foreign (non-American) countries, and since the items are important why should they be deleted? If all the big sub-articles are merged you will get big major article which will take such a long time to load! That is a problem for some computers and possibly the Wiki.
#{{User|Blitzwing}} - So, If I understand, all the Mario Kart GP items will still be separate... Except those? Merging those merely because the two characters are a bit obscure is ludicrous.
#{{User|tanokki}} -per blitzwing. If your going to have article's on every other item except these it doesn't make sense and could be difficult to understand for the newer users/guests.
#{{User|1337Yoshi}} Per all.
====Comments====
Well, we do have articles on foreign character items in ''Super Smash Bros.'', so aren't they technically at the same level according to the importance policy? {{User|Garlic Man}}
:Example, please. {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::'''Garlic Man''': Yes and no: while they are from foreign games, any Marioverse character can use them. {{User|Stooben Rooben}}
:::I was just about to say "Yea but items such as [[Poke Ball]]s can be used by Mario or Yoshi and anyone else, but these items cannot." when I got an edit conflict XP {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::::Iggykoopa, can you rephrase your comment? I do not seem to understand what your trying to say, sorry. {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
It seems like you are saying that the game charecters are not that importent because they were never released in america but your wrong even though they were never released here they are still part of the mario universe and should be treated as such. {{User|Iggykoopa}}
:No im not saying the game characters arent important, and Tamagotchi and Pac-Man are in the Americas. Im saying that we arent going to expand on those articles, since such few MWikians live in Japan, and most of them I guess are inactive. So, the best possibility to save space and other stuff would be to merge these articles into one. Also please sign your comments with <nowiki>{{User|Iggykoopa}}</nowiki> {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::Ok but then it gets down to what is important and whats not and then before you know it this becomes wikepidia {{User|Iggykoopa}}
:::Im not really getting your point, please rephrase it. {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::::'''S-Y''': Oh, I didn't know that Mario characters cannot use the foreign items. I understand now :). {{User|Garlic Man}}
To Iggykoopa on the topic of us becoming like Wikipedia, several things should be addressed (1) Whether something has appeared in one region (such as Japan) or in multiple regions is of no importance: American, Japanese, European, etc. exclusive content all should get equal treatment.  Our inability to do so because most of the editors are American does not mean that we cannot ''strive'' to make it so.  I believe the proposer misused foreign - he probably meant non-Mario series. (2) There is a big difference between the Mario universe and the Mario series.  The Mario universe is connected to many other fictional universes, including Legend of Zelda, Sonic, Pac-Man, etc.  However, this does not mean that the Legend of Zelda series is part of the Mario series: they are two independent series of games that have occasionally crossed-over with one another.  The Super Mario Wiki covers the Mario ''series'', not the Mario ''universe''.  There is simply too much content to cover if we covered the entire multiverse of which Mario is one small part.  Giving equal coverage to, say, Legend of Zelda as we did to Mario would require that we have articles for the Hookshot, Midna, and Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening to name a few subjects.  However, these crossovers are still part of the Mario series, and so to accommodate that we cover any part of a non-Mario series that has crossed over, such as these items.  However, we do not give equal coverage.  We would not go in-depth talking about all the many times Link saved Hyrule, just his involvement in Super Mario RPG, Smash Bros., etc.  Because we cannot go so in-depth we sometimes need to merge articles together because they are so short.  This is one such case.  The subjects will still be given the same treatment as before, people will still be able to search for them and be brought to the appropriate page, and so one and so forth.  The only difference is that they are on the same page. {{User|Stumpers}} 00:30, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
:'''Garlic''': Thanks for understanding. '''Stumpers''': Thanks for telling Iggykoopa about this. {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::Of course.  The fact that we're a Wiki about a series rather than the universe is a little hard to grasp - especially for new users, so I'm happy to describe it. {{User|Stumpers}}
:::what i was saying is that if we decide what is important then other things start geting merged such as the super luigi storys charecters {{User|Iggykoppa}}
::::But Super Luigi Stories is '''''Mario''''' related, while these are not. They've breifly just appeared in one game along with Mario and the gang. - {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
Super luigi is only in one game while there are to mario kart gp games {{User|Iggykoopa}}
:::::Yes but he is part of the Big Eight, so he should have an article about him. The other characters from MKAGP DO NOT appear in any other Mario game, just one. Super Luigi has its own article because a character thats actually from the Mushroom Kingdom can use that. Now do you see what Im trying to say? {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
:Iggy, your fear of us going merge happy is appreciated, but you don't need to worry about it: it's an issue that has already been thoroughly discussed and decided upon.  Yes, we do merge [[List of Implied Characters|implied characters]] and characters who are inseparable, such as [[Ashley and Red]], but we draw the line there.  You don't see us merging [[Penguin Patrol]] with other minor ''[[Paper Mario]]'' characters, for example. {{User|Stumpers}}
Iggykoopa Ok but think about this do the races take place in the mushroom world.
:No one's going to deny that. ;) We just got over a big discussion about what could be considered canon and non-canon, and the verdict was that no fan opinions should make something be considered non-canon, so no one is about to call those items non-canon. {{User|Stumpers}}
Iggykoopa But the problem is if you do that what happens to the rest of the items also some items still appear in mario kart wii
:Yes but thats a diffrent game. THIS game is only in Japan, and we don't have many users who played it. They are MINOR items, so Im proposing we should merge them.... {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::Super-Yoshi - this merge should be made because the items are minor, not because they're in a Japan-only game.  We have plenty of Japanese content on the Wiki - for example, Mario vs. Wario items. {{User|Stumpers}} 10:20, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
:::Oh ok. So I guess this is a sorta debatable proposal, right? {{User|Super-Yoshi}}
::::The motives are debatable, at any rate. But I still feel there isn't enough content surrounding these items to justify individual articles. Maybe in the future they can be split up again, but as they are now, the red links and stubs are merely eyesores. - {{User|Walkazo}}


==Changes==
==Changes==

Revision as of 20:14, October 1, 2008

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Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), removal of a previously added feature that has tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action(s) are done.
  • Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so, not, e.g., "I like this idea!"
  • "Vote" periods last for one week.
  • All past proposals are archived.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{user|User name}}. Signing with the signature code ~~~(~) is not allowed due to technical issues.

How To

  1. Actions that users feel are appropriate to have community approval first can be added by anyone, but they must have a strong argument.
  2. Users then vote and discuss on the issue during that week. The "deadline" for the proposal is one week from posting at:
    1. Monday to Thursday: 17:00 (5pm)
    2. Friday and Saturday: 20:00 (8pm)
    3. Sunday: 15:00 (3pm)
  3. Every vote should have a reason accompanying it.
  4. At any time a vote may be rejected if at least three active users believe the vote truly has no merit or was cast in bad faith. However, there must be strong reasons supporting the invalidation.
  5. "# " should be added under the last vote of each support/oppose section to show another blank line.
  6. Any proposal that has three votes or less at deadline will automatically be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
  7. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of a sysop, the proposer can ask for that help.
  8. There are two topics that cannot be decided on through a proposal: the first is sysop promotions and demotions, which are decided by Bureaucrats. Secondly, no proposals calling for the creation of Banjo, Conker or Sonic series articles are allowed (several proposals supporting them have failed in recent history).

The times are in EDT, and are set so that the user is more likely to be online at those times (after work/school, weekend nights). If a proposal is added on Saturday night at 11:59 PM EDT, the deadline is the next Saturday night at 8:00 PM. If it is a minute later, the deadline is a day plus 15 hours (Sunday), as opposed to a day minus 4 hours.

CURRENTLY: 17:43, 12 May 2024 (EDT)

New Features

None at the moment.

Removals

None at the moment.

Splits & Merges

Smash Bros. Moves

In light of recent applications of our importance policy, many users would like to see minor Super Smash Bros. subjects merged. One such suggestion has been to merge the special moves with the characters’ pages. For example, Hand Grenade, Remote Controlled Missile, Cypher, C4, and Grenade Launcher would be merged with Solid Snake.

This merge would decrease the emphasis placed Smash Bros. while still retaining all Super Smash Bros. content. If this proposal passes, the following assurances are granted (1) ALL content from a special move page must be transferred to its respective character page BEFORE the special move page is blanked. This includes pictures. (2) ALL special move pages affected will become redirects to their appropriate section in their characters' articles. In other words, you will still be able to easily look up each special move. It will simply no longer have its own page. (3) The Super Smash Bros. Special Moves page will still be in place.

If you would like an example of how this would look, please see here. Please note how the image templates and stub templates carried over. Trophy information when applicable has now been moved down to the larger trophy information section. The only real change is that images have been made smaller. For the purpose of example, I have including the SSB Moves template at the bottom of the section. Unless people really want it to be there, when/if I merge the moves, I will not be including the template. Let me know.

Proposer: Stumpers (talk)
Deadline: 17:00, October 2, 2008

Support

  1. Stumpers (talk) - Per myself above. This merge will retain all information about the Smash Bros. series, but it will present it in a way that will not give unequal attention to the Smash Bros. series over other cross-overs. We need to either follow the importance policy by measures such as the one described in the proposal or we need to modify the importance policy.
  2. Uniju :D (talk) - I completely agree with Stumpers.
  3. R.O.B 128 (talk) - You have my full support on this incentive. It's about time this happened.
  4. Booster (talk) - I'm all for this. From what I gather, moves pertaining to Mario characters will be merged as well, yes?
  5. Stooben Rooben (talk) - This is a great idea. The wiki needs a little less focus on the SSB series, and some more on the Mario series; I don't want anything to drastic to be changed, so this seems like just the right way to do things.
  6. Super-Yoshi (talk) - Per all.
  7. Cobold (talk) - I suggested this ages ago. I didn't want to create a proposal after the debate didn't work out. This step should be all right to put some weight onto the Importance Policy, it was only a theory before.
  8. tanokki (talk) -I didn't like this initially but when I looked a stumpers test page It made sense.Per all.
  9. White Knight (talk) - For those who want the Smash series info, it is still there, and for those who want less focus on the Smash series, there would be fewer pages about it.
  10. Walkazo (talk) - Per all. It'll make navigating the SSB information easier as well.
  11. Xluidi (talk) - Per all. It makes navigation more easy, and less stubs.
  12. Yoshikart (talk) - Per all. Could look up on SmashWiki.
  13. Canama (talk) - Per all
  14. Shrikeswind (talk) - This is the Mario Wiki, not the Smash Wiki or the Nintendo Wiki. Merge 'em.
  15. Magitroopa (talk) I'm pretty much tired of them.
  16. M&SG (talk) I highly agree on all of this. Making separate articles about special moves is foolish and a big waste. After all, they're THAT character's moves, so place them in THAT character's article. Already I merged Lucario's special moves onto its main article.
  17. Karatekid5 (talk) I agree. It is much more orginized. And a few are stubs.
  18. Iggykoopa Im useuale ageinst mergeing but this is not smash wiki.
  19. Lemonnlime (talk) I agree with this proposal, lets merge and keep it mainly Mario related.

Oppose

  1. Phailure (talk) It's not like the move articles are stubs or anything, they can stay.
  2. King Mario (talk)- Per Phailure

Comment

Just a question to those responsible for the random quote generator: many Final Smash articles include quotes from Masahiro Sakurai. Will we need to remove these in the event that the character page has a quote at the top? Alternatively, we could merge quotes into the actual text, like so: In his Super Smash Bros. Dojo! entry for Peach Blossom, Masahiro comments, "[insert quote here]." Stumpers (talk)

Booster: It does also apply to Mario characters. Stumpers (talk) 23:19, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

About your first comment, you could just use {{LLquote}} Stooben Rooben (talk) 23:41, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

Well, this what I've actually wanted (and some others) and this will definately prevent vandalism. Srsly, we would have to patrol 195 articles if there isn't a merge. Plus, I think somebody went a little too far when they put that Diddy Kong can perform "Diddycide". That's a technique that is only meant to be on Smash Wiki. Are you going to merge the moves for the Mario series characters too, Stumpers? R.O.B 128 (talk)

I was considering only merging non-Mario characters, but then Blitzwing and Stooben suggested to me that we merge all the moves. So, yes - that is the current plan: Fireball, Cape, Mario Tornado, and Jump Punch will all be merged with Mario. If anyone would rather this not be the case, please speak up. Stumpers (talk)
Say wut? Fireball is in more than just Smash Bros., you know. Screw the importance policy.Phailure (talk)
Please try to remain civil. Stooben Rooben (talk)
Just as Mario's cape form from Super Mario World will not be merged with Mario, neither will the article Fireball. We will be merging the SSB section from the article into Mario, but in its place we will be lightly mentioning that fireball became an attack, with a link to the Fireball section in the Mario article. As much as its worth, I can tell you that it is not my intention that this proposal lead to all major Smash Bros. elements being merged. I'd like to refer you to Yangus, White Mage, and Knuckles. They have articles, and so I see no reason why we should merge characters from Smash Bros.. Stumpers (talk)
Sorry about giving my honest opinion being rude. Anyway, I'm all for Stumper's last comment, although i think Final Smashes should have there own pages. Another option could be to make an article like "<Character Name here> Movesets (Super Smash Bros.)". Phailure (talk)
I'm going to say that this idea of yours will not work. FSs will be merged with teh characters.
The preceding unsigned comment was added by R.O.B 128 (talk).
Actually, it might work. It's an idea I toyed around with after Cobold brought up the topic of merging SSB articles. Phailure: don't forget that you can make your own proposal even if this one passes that would change the way we present data. So, for example, if this proposal passes and we merge the pages as shown above, you could then make another proposal offering up an alternate solution. Just some advice from having watched a bunch of proposals going down: give people time to get used to this proposal and to weigh the pros and cons before you put forth another proposal. If people are just starting to use a new system that they just approved of, they're unlikely to notice its defects, and therefore more unlikely to vote for a new system right away. Stumpers (talk)
Stumpers:Works for me. R.O.B. 128: Fine... but at least Giga Bowser should get a page, since he was a boss in Melee. Phailure (talk)
Noted. I'll be sure to only merge the Final Smash portion of the article. If you'd like a mock-up done I'd be more than happy. Stumpers (talk)

M&SG: Please do not act upon a proposal until it has passed. Did you make sure that all text and images were transferred over? Stumpers (talk)

Well, it pretty much looks like the merge is gonna happen. :P If it's that big a deal, it's fine with me. Phailure (talk)

New Super Mario Bros. Level Articles

Looking through the site, I noticed we have some articles on each level of New Super Mario Bros.. I'm not exactly sure why. The levels of Super Mario Bros, Super Mario Bros. 3, The Lost Levels, etcetera, are all merged with their respective world article. (Ex: World 1-1 (SMB) is non-existent because it is already in World 1 (SMB)). So here's my proposal: merge the NSMB level articles with their respective world articles, just as we have done with the aforementioned articles. While many NSMB level articles have yet to be created, some look like this or this. Please take this as a rough example of what the world articles would look like merged.

Proposer: Stooben Rooben (talk)
Deadline: 17:00, October 2, 2008

Merge

  1. Stooben Rooben (talk) - Per my statement above.
  2. Super-Yoshi (talk) - Per St00by.
  3. The Dark Doggy 2 (talk) - There's no back story or info or even a name for NSMB levels except that what their theme is (eg forest or snow), and who will go to Mario Wiki to find that out?
  4. Blue koopa (talk) - There is very little info that can be put into those articles and all the levels in a world are prety much the same.
  5. Walkazo (talk) - See below comment.
  6. R.O.B 128 (talk) - This wiki doesn't need articles for every little thing. Those would be to many stubs! I support this just as I support the merge for the Special Moves.
  7. Stumpers (talk) - Changing my mind because of the featured article thing. Plus, the mock-up shoes that it's a better system to drift around gathering information.
  8. Uniju :D (talk) - Per all above.
  9. Storm Yoshi (talk) - Per all above. ._.
  10. Luigi001 (talk) Per all!
  11. Princess Grapes Butterfly (talk) Per all! This sounds like a Brilliant idea!

Keep Separate

  1. Time Q (talk): First, what makes a level article-worthy? Super Mario World levels all get articles (which I think is good), so why not do the same for NSMB, SMB, etc.? The only difference here is that they don't have proper names, but most SMW level names only consist of the world name and a number as well. Levels definitely have enough content to write about in separate articles, so IMO we should allow level articles for any game. Secondly, we're talking about levels (you can write so much about them!) of a main Mario game, so I don't feel they should be merged into one single page. Finally, if we do merge them, we can't put the single levels into separate categories (such as "Castles and Fortresses", "Grasslands", ...).
  2. Bob-omb buddy (talk)-Per Time Q,and I have found that merging levels loses info.
  3. Garlic Man (talk) - Per Time Q; in fact, if the proposal is declined, we could start a PipeProject to complete all of these levels.
  4. The Writing Guy (talk) - Per TimeQ.
  5. Grandy02 (talk) - Per all.
  6. Palkia47 (talk) - Per all. We are a Mario Wiki, and we have and need the most Mario info we can get, and just having like two sentences on the World article isn't info; a description of the level in an article is info :D
  7. Magitroopa (talk) Per all.
  8. InfectedShroom (talk) - Per Time Q. All levels, IMO, should have their own page.
  9. Iggykoopa (talk) Look there is no reason to merge levels we have enough information to create separete pages!
  10. Mateus 23 (talk) Per all.

Comments

Time Q: I do see your point, and I actually expected someone to point this out. The reason why I didn't propose that SMW levels get merged, is because they do consist of more that solely numbers. Ex: SMB, SMB2, SMB3, TLL, YI, YIDS, NSMB, SPP, and probably a few others each have levels titled "World 1-1", or "World 2-1", etcetera. SMW does actually name their levels, albeit some of the names are less "wordy" than others. But, SMW has levels with titles like "Awesome", "Gnarly", and even "Yoshi's Island 2". While the all games have official level names (even if they are just a sequence of numbers), SMW is the only one to give their levels more original names. If we were to separate every "World 1-1", "World 1-2", "World 1-3", and so on into their own articles, we would have at least 32 disambiguation pages with the aforementioned titles. So, in this aspect, I find merging the NSMB level articles to their respective world articles makes navigation all-the-more easier. Stooben Rooben (talk) 02:29, 26 September 2008 (EDT)

You've got a point here, but I don't think navigation would be that much of a problem. How would having disambiguation pages make navigation more difficult? I'm still all for putting brief level summaries into their respective world articles (and linking to the actual level articles). The only thing that separates the "article-worthiness" of NSMB levels from the "article-worthiness" of SMW levels is that the former do not get names. But we have a lot of articles about things that don't have (official) names. Time Q (talk)

How is there a disambig,And dosent every one of the pages list the levels at the end of the page?Bob-omb buddy (talk)

World 1 (SMB) isn't even complete yet! Before we consider whether to carry this action out or not, shouldn't someone complete all of the incomplete world/level articles first? Pikax (talk)

Time Q: The excess amount of navigation templates and disambig pages seem rather unnecessary. (I do admit I have created a lot of navigation templates. :P) We would have at least 32 disambiguation pages if we are to separate all levels from their respective world articles. Take SMB3's world articles for example: Grass Land is a nice, long article that gives a descriptive entry for each level in that world; not to mention SMB3's levels have practically the same level names. In my opinion, it would be better to have eight long, descriptive articles on worlds and their levels, rather than around 40-60 stubs. Expansion is possible on the level articles, but if we were to do that, we might as well separate any and all levels from their respective world article. Bob-omb Buddy: 1) Merging articles does not always mean loss of information. It depends on who's doing the merging and how it's being done. Take for example when I merged controller articles to their respective console article: I left the lengthy description of each controller exactly as it was and merely implemented it into the respective console article. Pikax: I can finish World 1 (SMB). Stooben Rooben (talk) 17:12, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
I agree that a few long articles are better than dozens of stubs. In fact, I'd even like to see the SMW levels merged, because empty articles like Chocolate Island with a list of stubs like Chocolate Island 3 are, frankly, irritating: you hope for information, but get next to nothing. If people want in-depth descriptions of each and every article, they should use Walkthroughs or FAQs (which we should find for them and link to, in order to continue to be a helpful, worthwhile resource for them); if they want to understand the Mario series as a whole, the sections within the larger world articles should be enough. However, Time Q's "what makes a level article-worthy?" point is valid: all levels should get merged, or none at all; because inconsitancy is just as distasteful. And finally, I think the numerous disambiguation pages can't be phased out anyway: because, people are still going to search for "World 1-1", and it will still apply to a multitude of articles, even if "1-1" is only the name of a single section within an overworld title. - Walkazo (talk)

ZOMG to Garlic's comment! I was about to work on the level/world articles, but then this Proposal popped up. That's weird :blink: Palkia47 (talk)

Ah, then if it turns out that we will have to expand on those articles, I shall help as well :D! Garlic Man (talk)
Well, since a good portion of the opposers believe that the world articles wouldn't give enough level description (as opposed to the level articles staying separate), why don't you guys take this as an example of what I intend said world articles to look like? Though it currently contains only two level descriptions, I think you can get the gist of what the world articles would look like. Stooben Rooben (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2008 (EDT)
St00by thats a great idea. Of course, we would have to expand on the sections alot, but it won't take that long. If alot of NSMB players put their effort into it, that article would become huge. - Super-Yoshi (talk)
Thank you, Super-Yoshi! As you can see, I've expanded the example even more. I even added a section for the world's cannon. As of now, the article is over 8,500 bytes, and it is only halfway completed. So, if the article were to be written in this format, it would roughly be around 15,000-17,000 bytes, which is more than long enough to be a Featured Article. The article lacks several images, sure, but with enough searching I'm fairly sure we could find level maps or screenshots for each level. Stooben Rooben (talk)

What would be the problem about doing it like here? Brief level descriptions in the world article (that could be longer than in the Yoshi's Island example), with links to in-depth articles. This looks just fine to me and navigation is easy too. I really don't like the idea of merging stuff that has so much content you can write about. Plus, it's from a main Mario game, so it is of major importance. Plus, if we merge all levels into world articles, we can't put the single levels into separate categories. Time Q (talk)

I agree with TimeQ. Plus if we keep the images, wouldn't they make the pages' appearence look worse? The Writing Guy (talk)
Time Q: That is a fine idea, but as Walkazo said, "inconsistency is distasteful". The brief level info can be hard to do, especially when summing up many levels that have similarities. The levels in NSMB all have the same atmosphere, enemies, and all that – the only difference being that they require different strategies to make it through the levels. IMO, the level summaries in World 1 (YI) are pretty poor. (No offense.) TWG: Well, take World 9 for example; each level has a map image, but they are laid out tastefully, just like World A. And, if that weren't to work, we could always do it like in this article. Stooben Rooben (talk)
I'm not understanding why Stages with names are superior to those without names. For instance DKC level articles are not affected by this proposal, while having about the same, if not less, information contained in the article itself. I don't beleive that names are what makes some articles inferior and less important, but rather the content, which can indeed be improved, if enough users work on it. I will contribute to NSMB, SMB, and other games that I may have. After all, levels could be anywhere from 1-1 in Super Mario Bros, or Bob-omb Battlefiled from Super Mario 64. All should be treated equally, not discriminated by game. Garlic Man (talk)
They're not superior. I just didn't think about it at the time. :P Also, I don't think the paintings in SM64 are really levels. I think their worlds...Correct me if I'm wrong. Stooben Rooben (talk)
Well, technically, they are "Courses"; but no other game, I don't think, uses that name, so. Also, even "Galaxies", are part of "Domes", which may be considered as Worlds, and the galaxies as levels within the domes and areas. I also noticed that I think the proposal changed to just NSMB now... Garlic Man (talk)
Well, unless anyone objects, I think this can cover SMW, YI, and DKC level articles as well. It seems like a good portion of peoples' reasoning for this proposal is that they are levels, (that operates in both support and oppose). As for SMG and SM64, Maybe we should make another proposal pertaining solely to those. Stooben Rooben (talk)

Iggykoopa there is no reason to merge levels we have enough information to create sepreate pages

The proposal should contain a link to one of the New Super Mario Bros. level pages. - Cobold (talk) 13:12, 30 September 2008 (EDT)
Cobold: Good idea. I did so. Iggykoopa: I'm not sure if you're referring to all levels, or just NSMB levels. If you look at the level descriptions for the Super Mario Bros. worlds, they are fairly short, but almost as informative as possible. NSMB level articles can have a little more information, (as seen here), but it doesn't seem like many users are determined enough to make the articles that long. If we leave them separate, many users may just leave the levels as are – as stubs. If we merge the levels into their respective world articles, the whole article will be long, thus not a stub. Of course, once merged, the articles could always use some expansion, but I feel that it would be much better to have eight neatly-written, relatively long articles, than forty-something stubs out there. Stooben Rooben (talk)

We also have enough information to split off the biography sections of the character articles, but we don't. Having all the information on one page is much more accessible and also makes for great Featured Articles - which is the main reason I'm supporting this proposal. We need to see more effort for the level articles, and allowing for potential FA status would help beef them up, I'm all for it. Think about what we have as FAs right now: games, characters, and series. Why aren't their locations up there? It's because there are only a few, such as the Mushroom and Beanbean Kingdoms, that would be large enough for FAs, even with all of their information. When you break down a location, like one of these worlds, into smaller articles as we have been doing, there's not enough information left! So let's merge, be inspired, write our hearts out, and get these featured and move on to more articles! Stumpers (talk)

Well said, Stumpers! Stooben Rooben (talk)

However, it still comes down to the fact that expansion is possible, and that merging together a bunch of small articles does not necessarily give you a good-quality article. For instance, Cheep-Cheep, having 13 sections, is a semi-long article. However, each section lacks information, and cannot be said that it has good quality. From seeing the example level articles up in the proposals, if images are added, the articles would become easier to understand, and overall informative. There still is a chance for those articles, and if be needed, there are many users who are willing to do the work for 4 informative articles, rather than a grouping of section stubs. Garlic Man (talk)

Garlic Man: Expansion is always possible; I never said it wasn't. I agree that merging multiple small articles into one doesn't make the article "good-quality", but it makes it 1) more efficient than multiple stubs, 2) it makes navigation easier, and 3) it makes the wiki look a little more professional. Now, let me elaborate on #3: The Cheep-Cheep article may need more information in certain sections, but it looks much better than a stub. Multiple stubs without images might make the place look to some; whereas if we were to merge the articles, it would be visible that the larger article still needed work, but it would have at least one image (the world's map), a descriptive infobox, several subsections – each describing the many levels in said world, and it would make it easier to traverse across the website for newer users, (and possibly some older users as well). Also take note of what Stumpers said: the biography sections are large enough to split off, however, we don't do that. Wouldn't you find the MarioWiki more appeasing and more professional if it had more articles worthy of being Featured? I for one get tired of seeing articles commonly repeated on the Main Page as Featured – and they're always pertaining to characters and games (occasionally game series). Locations are a vital part of the Marioverse. Look at the World 2 (NSMB) page: it's only as long as it's level articles. If we can expand the world articles by merging it's respective levels within it, and then expand those sections, the articles could be amazing. If done, the world articles could then be roughly 15,000-20,000+ bytes, as opposed to 1,000-2,000 bytes per world and level. Stooben Rooben (talk)
Actually, in my opinion, I don't really know if a group of stubs look better than a single stub article. Also, seeing the example articles, I don't see them as stubs. They have sufficient information. Of course, we can implement infoboxes into the level articles if it will help the article. I also had the impression you were stressing the fact that if we made world articles, they could become featured status. Seeing your proposal example, no offence intended, I don't see how it could become featured in that state; now don't get me wrong, because articles can be improved. Additionally, I don't think counting in "bytes" is very appropriate for articles, for it is not how many characters were used in templates, categories, etc, but rather the text and meat of the article itself. As for featured article status, I could point out each mistake on your article, but since they could be easily fixed(while lacking images), I will not; after all, this proposal is not to get those articles featured. It would be nice to see more articles qualified for Featured Nomination, but currently, I don't see potential in the example article, and don't see how we would be any better off, because I personally don't find much more information on the single article than the separate ones. Garlic Man (talk)
Perhaps the fault is with me and my emphasis on FAs. I did not mean to imply that merging the articles would instantly lead to FA status. What I meant is this: we have a length requirement. So, short articles (like Spiny Shroopa) will never be FAs. That means that said articles are largely ignored and largely stay stubs. I'm a huge fan of the Mario Bros. Super Show, but knowing that none of those characters' articles can ever be long enough to be featured is a great inhibitor. Now, on the other hand, I made Baby Peach an FA in under a week, completely rewriting it. Why? I had a lot more incentive: having my work highlighted for the entire Wiki to see. Now, why don't we use that incentive to our advantage here? People are slacking on editing level articles (possibly for the reason I don't edit SMBSS articles much), so we should dangle the carrot in front of the horse, so to speak. Let the articles become potential FAs (ie if someone puts more effort into them they may become FAs), and let's see them improve. Stumpers (talk)
You made a good point; if determined enough, any user can completely revamp an article. I did similar things to Super Smash Bros. and Mario Kart (series), and eventually both got featured. What I'm saying is, those level articles could be severely improved; I would have done them right now, but since they're under a proposal, I can't. I had the same incentive to get those articles featured, and they did. When I nominate an article for featured status, if somebody opposes, I do everything to fix whereever they want me to fix. Because that's what I nominated them for. To get them featured. But I think there is a border between articles that stay as good quality and articles that become featured. I think level articles are a good example of the former. Garlic Man (talk)
I still don't really understand why you're against merging them. It seems from your comment that you recognize that FA status potential is a good incentive (the articles you rewrote could all be featured) and then people scramble to fix up the articles to meet the opposer's demands. All around, it would seem like you're saying that FA status is a good thing. But, then why are you so in favor of the un-featurable status of the level articles when they are in such a state? Stumpers (talk)
Just because the levels will all be part of one article doesn't mean they won't be expanded upon. All we're saying is that it would be better if all that information was in one place. More people may even contribute to the smaller sections in the larger articles than they would to the countless stubs that are currently in place: undertaking large projects is daunting, while being one of many working towards a loftier goal is something anyone can do. - Walkazo (talk)

Phew, now that's what I call controversial. It's a pity that we can't seem to find a compromise and that, no matter which side wins, there will be lots of people not happy with the outcome. Stumpers and Stooben, as much as I usually appreciate your ideas, your arguments here don't convince me. The "They don't have names"-argument isn't valid IMO, since on the one hand we have many articles without actual names, and on the other we also have cases where two or more officially-named things are merged in one article. I also don't quite understand your FA argument. Articles about single levels can become FAs. Of course, they must be expanded greatly, and must cover nearly everything about the level. When merging them into a World article instead, I think for each level there will be less information necessary to make it featured. Do you get my point? If you want to make a World article featured, you have to describe the World first and foremost. Of course, level descriptions are part of it, but compare it to a level article that shall become featured. For a featured level article, you expect it to cover really everything about the level, probably much more detailed than in a World article. The good thing about this is that World articles still can become FAs, too, if they have proper level summaries. And the argument that NSMB levels all have the same atmosphere is simply not true. You can always get more in detail, describing enemies, items, shortcuts, general layout... Time Q (talk)

I think we can all agree that the "No Real Name" idea's wrong. However, aren't shortcuts and general layouts the stuff of Walkthroughs and FAQs (as opposed to encyclopedias)? Items can easily be included in the individual sections which can be very detailed (just look at Super Paper Mario's chapter descriptions). A seperate section devoted to comparing and contrasting the world's enemies found in the various levels (organized as a chart) would probably be a greater asset than listing them per section (or per article, as things are now). - Walkazo (talk)
I'm with Time Q on this point, but there's one thing I want to point out (In fact this idea has been swimming around in my mind for about a month now); I think both sides, Support and Oppose have many opinions and solutions that they need to express and respond to. Currently, the difference of votes is one or less. Tomorrow is the deadline of the proposal, by theory, but do you think it could be extended a few days, just so both sides can get their points cleared? I know this would create an exception, and it is not solely because I am opposing the proposal, but rather to create a chance for an actual concensus; something that may not happen in the next day or so. Would this be possible or not? Garlic Man (talk)

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