User:SmokedChili/Thoughts Page

This is my thoughts page, where I'll post cases which interest me about Super Mario series and see what kind of conclusions I'll arrive at.

If you have comments or questions, write them here.

Cases in work: 0

Cases finished: 2

Case 1: Captain Toad is not Toad Brigade Captain

Claim: Captain Toad from Super Mario 3D World can't be Toad Brigade Captain from Super Mario Galaxy games.

Why: According to the settled talk page proposal, official sources dictate the playable Blue Toad in Super Mario 3D World to be the singular character known as Toad. Likewise, there exist a trading card that claims The Toad to appear in Super Mario Galaxy as the Toad Brigade Captain. Because of this, assuming Captain Toad to be Toad Brigade Captain is impossible, because he is in turn officially called "Captain Toad" in official sources.

Counterclaim: Captain Toad is Toad Brigade Captain. If this is true, there are two alternatives:

a) Toad Brigade Captain can't be The Toad, because he is already labeled as the Super Mario 3D World Toad.

b) Captain Toad is The Toad, who in turn can't be the Super Mario 3D World Toad, because he would already be Captain Toad.

Current evidence supports the claim.

Verdict 1: Captain Toad is not Toad Brigade Captain. Conclusion based on the info found on this wiki. Next step is to search official sources by own hand.

Evidence 1: Iwata Asks: Super Mario 3D World, section 4

This evidence was also used in the talk page proposal linked above by the proposer YoshiKong.

Evidence reads as:

:Koizumi: Talking about cuteness reminded me of how Toad used to look pretty plain, but because he gets cat ears this time his looks cuter overall. That and with how he can quickly dash around, I think he turned into an incredibly appealing character.

:Iwata: Yeah. It may be rude to his fans to say it like this, but Toad is a surprisingly popular character.

:Koizumi: Right. There's even gameplay this time that features Toad.

:Hayashida: Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy, there are games called "Captain Toad's Adventure," in which Captain Toad appears with his memorable little tune that goes "ta-dada-da-, ta-dada-da-".

Super Mario Wiki intepretation: YoshiKong pointed in his proposal that Captain Toad's character was based on Toad Brigade Captain, using part of Hayashida's line, "Taking a cue from Mario Galaxy", as the proof. This is currently reflected on many articles where Captain Toad is the subject.

Intepretation supports the claim.

Personal intepretation: The first two lines are practically meaningless. Hayashida says that when Captain Toad appears, he does so with his theme song.

Connecting the dots: The theme in question is played in Super Mario Galaxy games near Toad Brigade Captain's presence. The interview mentions the particular song as Captain Toad's song. Since Toad Brigade Captain's theme is now Captain Toad's theme, Toad Brigade Captain can be assumed to be Captain Toad.

Intepretation supports the counterclaim.

Conflict: The two intepretations claim the opposite. Next step is to analyze the context of Hayashida's line personally.

Personal analysis: It's clearly mentioned that the song talked about is Captain Toad's theme. However, according to YoshiKong, the first part of Hayashida's line means Captain Toad is essentially an expy of Toad Brigade Captain. This doesn't match with the rest of the sentence. Therefore, a plausible alternative is that being inspired by Super Mario Galaxy, there are now levels called "Captain Toad's Adventure", where Captain Toad's theme song will play.

Analysis supports the personal intepretation as well as the counterclaim.

Conclusion: Evidence 1 supports the counterclaim.

Observation: Koizumi's second line makes a reference to "gameplay that features Toad". This preceeds Hayashima's line about Captain Toad's own levels. However, the first two lines talk about the Super Mario 3D World Toad.

Conclusion: Both the Super Mario 3D World Toad and Captain Toad can be generally referred to as Toad.

Counterargument: The generic use of Toad may just refer to Captain Toad as part of his species, while Super Mario 3D World Toad is still The Toad.

Personal argument: There is no truly defined The Toad in the context of these lines. This might mean there are sources which this wiki uses to identify generic Toads as The Toad because they are simply called Toad in official profiles. Alternatively, there might also be sources where The Toad's name is applied to an entirely different Toad. Next step is to search for evidence to support this argument.

Evidence 2: The story of New Super Mario Bros. U on official American site

Evidence reads as: It was just another lovely dinner at the castle with Mario™, Luigi™, Toad™, and Princess Peach™...

Observation: Toad is referenced in the quote, with the notation of the trademark.

Questioning the evidence: In the intro of New Super Mario Bros. U, The Toad himself isn't seen. The quote likely refers to the two playable Toads, also known as Blue Toad and Yellow Toad. However, only one Toad is referenced. Therefore, these characters can be generally called Toad.

Connecting the dots: YoshiKong also linked to the [official American Super Mario 3D World site] in his proposal. This site too refers to the playable Toad just as Toad. However, this still doesn't mean this Toad in question is The Toad, because the use of the name Toad means that even with specific titles, these Toads can be completely interchangable with each other.

Evidence 2 supports the personal argument.

Verdict 2: Captain Toad is Toad Brigade Captain. This overwrites verdict 1. Conclusion based on official sources. Next step is to use above analysis to determine whether this means Captain Toad is also The Toad.

Dilemma: We now have fit proof that Captain Toad and Toad Brigade Captain are the same person, but that still leaves unanswered if this makes them separate or the same character as The Toad.

Alternative A: If these two are different characters, Super Mario Wiki can still assume the Super Mario 3D World Toad to be The Toad based on not being called anything else.

Alternative B: If these two are the same character, then Captain Toad's page becomes obsolete and will ideally be merged with The Toad's page. This in turn will lead to The Toad's section of Super Mario 3D World being moved to another page.

Analysis: There aren't many examples where a red-spotted Toad would not be the main playable Toad, and so getting a clear picture of this can be difficult. The two pieces of evidence linked here give the impression that there is no definitive ground for the appearance of The Toad, who is almost always assumed to appear in the games by the default name Toad. On the other hand, a part of Iwata Asks calls Captain Toad also Toad. In addition to this, the Super Mario Galaxy trading card states The Toad to be Toad Brigade Captain, so this makes him the same as Captain Toad.

Observation: The Toad is known to appear as his own invidual character in Super Mario 3D Land, differiated by the other red-spotted Toads by his blue vest. In addition, there appears a team of five Toads similar to the Toad Brigade seen in the playable intro stage, but it's not confirmed if they are the Toad Brigade.

Conflict: This wiki has a policy which states everything officially confirmed is canon, which means both the trading card description and Toad's appearance in Super Mario 3D Land are correct. It's still unconfirmed if the Toad Brigade appears in the said game as well.

Current evidence supports alternative B.

Verdict 3: Captain Toad is The Toad.

Clarification: So far, the only definite evidence are the trading card and the mention of Captain Toad's tune, which is the same as the Toad Brigade Captain's. Since those two are the same character by this logic, the trading card further expand The Toad's character by claiming him to be Toad Brigade Captain. Thus, Toad Brigade Captain, who is said to be The Toad, is also Captain Toad.

Conflict: Reached verdict doesn't match with this wiki's decision of calling the Super Mario 3D World Toad The Toad. Next step is to find a logical conclusion for this.

Connecting the dots: I stated earlier that based on the material found here, using the name Toad on a Toad means it is The Toad, because he has no other names to be called with. However, it's also known that Toad may also be general way of adressing other Toad characters without necessarily being The Toad. The text found on official New Super Mario Bros. U site supports this; even though it's likely a mistake, it still calls either Blue Toad or Yellow Toad just Toad. The Super Mario 3D World Toad himself has the appearance of a Blue Toad, and is called Toad. On the other hand, he is also the only playable Toad not to be called by any other name.

Personal argument: As The Toad is believed to be Toad Brigade Captain, he undergoes a name change from just Toad to Toad Brigade Captain. In fact, the rest of the Toad Brigade only calls him captain. In the case of the Super Mario 3D World Toad, he has no other names he is called with in the game. However, Blue Toad is potentially called only Toad, and in addition to this, his artwork from New Super Mario Bros. games is reused in the Super Mario 3D World e-manual. Because of this, it would be logical to assume the the Super Mario 3D World Toad is the characteric Blue Toad.

Verdict 4: The Super Mario 3D World Toad is the Blue Toad.

Final verdict: The characteric Toad, Toad Brigade Captain, and Captain Toad are all the one and same Toad. Because of this, The Toad can't be The Super Mario 3D World Toad, who is rather the characteric Blue Toad.

Possible actions: Propose the merging of Captain Toad with Toad (character) and moving of Super Mario 3D World section to Blue Toad (character).

Current situation: Proposal posted and passed. The majority decided it would be best to move Toad Brigade Captain's info to Captain Toad (Alternative A) after new evidence was found. No need for further actions.

Case 2: The World names of Super Mario Bros. 3

Claim: The generic names of the worlds ("Grass Land", "Desert Land", "Water Land" etc.) of Super Mario Bros. 3 are American localization.

Clarification: In the second NES release of Super Mario Bros. 3, its worlds were given generic names by adding Land to its corresponding element or feature. These changes include Desert Hill to Desert Land, Sea Side to Water Land and The Sky to Sky Land. The only expection to this Grass Land, which keeps its name in every English version of the game. No reason for this localization change has been found. The names are corrected in English SNES and GBA rereleases, with some modifications to the names in the latter.

Counterclaim: The generic names came from Japanese sources.

Current evidence supports the claim.

Verdict 1: The generic names are the result of localization. Conclusion based on current evidence. Next step is to search for Japanese sources for new evidence by own hand.

Evidence 1: Japanese Wikipedia page for Super Mario Bros. 3, "Worlds" section

This section lists all the worlds in the game, including Warp Zone, in both Japanese characters and western alphabets. The English names match with the current names. However, the Japanese names have a pattern. They all end with words 「の国」 (no kuni), which translates into "country of". Expection to this is Warp Zone, which is written in katakana as 「ワープゾーン」 (waapu zoon).

Translation comparation: These are the official Japanese names, rough translations of them and the official English names:

草原の国 (Sōgen no kuni): Grassland Country (Grass Land)

砂漠の国 (Sabaku no kuni): Desert Country (Desert Hill)

海の国 (Umi no kuni): Sea Country (Sea Side)

巨大の国 (Kyodai no kuni): Huge Country (Big Island)

空の国 (Sora no kuni): Sky Country (The Sky)

氷の国 (Kōri no kuni): Ice Country (Iced Land)

土管の国 (Dokan no kuni): Pipe Country (Pipe Maze)

暗黒の国 (Ankoku no kuni): Dark Country (Bowser's Castle)

Observation: Based on the translations, the Japanese names follow a similar pattern of naming as the second NES version of Super Mario Bros. 3.

Evidence 1 supports the counterclaim.

Evidence 2: Japanese Super Mario Bros. 3 manual

This evidence was earlier linked to this site by LinkTheLefty.

The pages 30-34 have the same names for the worlds as the names listed above. The manual also includes furigana (kanas for the correct spelling of kanji), which may lead to corrections of the romanized world names listed above.

Evidence 2 supports the counterclaim.

Verdict 2: Generic names are also present in the Japanese version. This overwrites verdict 1. Conclusion based on current evidence.

Questioning the evidence: This is based on the Famicom and NES versions alone. It's not known if this is also the case in the remakes. Next step is to search for Japanese sources that show if this is true or not.

Evidence 3: Japanese page for Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3

This site lists the seven worlds of Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3. As it's seen on the first page alone, the same names are used once again, meaning that even back then, the generic names are official names.

Evidence 3 supports the counterclaim.

Verdict 3: The generic names are used more recently than thought.

Connecting the dots: It is important to note that as seen in evidence 1, the corrected world names are always written in English, while generic world names are in Japanese. This means that both versions of the world names are acceptable, the corrected ones as official English names and generic ones as valid translations. The generic names are mostly found in supplementary material.

Final verdict: The generic world names of Super Mario Bros. 3 are not a localization, but a more direct translation of the Japanese names which were also used in later material. The corrected names seen in remakes are just as valid as the generic ones.

Possible actions: Find an appropiate way to put this information on wanted page(s).

Current situation: Nothing done yet.