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Talk:King Boo (Super Mario Sunshine): Difference between revisions
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== Big Boss Boo == | == Big Boss Boo == | ||
So, as we know, this entity shares its Japanese name with one of the ''many'' Japanese names for Big Boo, which itself is clearly the same basic thing in all but possibly ''Dark Moon'' (where it's seemingly Boolossus). Anyways, I feel it's likely a good idea to go ahead and merge this to Big Boo and treat the "King Boo" name as a localization goof brought on by the appearance (on a related note, note how the ''actual'' King Boo was called Big Boo in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', which ''already had Big Boo''). There's also the possibility of splitting those Big Boos here, but that would be ultra messy, because both other iterations ''also'' have an alternate name, and the SM64 one's alternate name is shared with the ''Mario Party 2'' one. As such, I feel merging this to there would be the better idea. Now, to deal with possible counterpoints: | So, as we know, this entity shares its Japanese name with one of the ''many'' Japanese names for Big Boo, which itself is clearly the same basic thing in all but possibly ''Dark Moon'' (where it's seemingly Boolossus). Anyways, I feel it's likely a good idea to go ahead and merge this to Big Boo and treat the "King Boo" name as a localization goof brought on by the appearance (on a related note, note how the ''actual'' King Boo was called Big Boo in ''Super Mario 64 DS'', which ''already had Big Boo''). There's also the possibility of splitting those Big Boos here, but that would be ultra messy, because both other iterations ''also'' have an alternate name, and the SM64 one's alternate name is shared with the ''Mario Party 2'' one. As such, I feel merging this to there would be the better idea. Now, to deal with possible counterpoints: | ||
*"It's design is not just an enlarged Boo, it's distinct." | *"It's design is not just an enlarged Boo, it's distinct." | ||
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::Parabuzzy was also treated as "another one of those infamous merge proposals" just a few short years ago, but then ''Super Mario Maker'' happened and now ''Super Mario Maker 2'' outright calls them Para-Beetles, so localization isn't nearly as constant as you want to make it out to be. That said, why not alternatively move the Boss Telesas from Big Boo to this article? Also, I want to point out that we have a [[Big Boo (boss)|Big Boo boss]] article for ''Super Mario World''. If this merges, so should that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:28, November 3, 2019 (EST) | ::Parabuzzy was also treated as "another one of those infamous merge proposals" just a few short years ago, but then ''Super Mario Maker'' happened and now ''Super Mario Maker 2'' outright calls them Para-Beetles, so localization isn't nearly as constant as you want to make it out to be. That said, why not alternatively move the Boss Telesas from Big Boo to this article? Also, I want to point out that we have a [[Big Boo (boss)|Big Boo boss]] article for ''Super Mario World''. If this merges, so should that. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 18:28, November 3, 2019 (EST) | ||
:::Additionally, if a "distinct character" is the only example of a particular subject in a game (especially a single game), then it's that game's interpretation of said subject. Sort of like how there's only one large Chain Chomp/Unagi/Dorrie/Klepto/Manta Ray/Wiggler in SM64, yet they are considered part of their respective species article. Actually, it's exactly like that. Toad, Yoshi, and Kamek at least appear alongside "unnamed generic" members of the species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, November 3, 2019 (EST) | :::Additionally, if a "distinct character" is the only example of a particular subject in a game (especially a single game), then it's that game's interpretation of said subject. Sort of like how there's only one large Chain Chomp/Unagi/Dorrie/Klepto/Manta Ray/Wiggler in SM64, yet they are considered part of their respective species article. Actually, it's exactly like that. Toad, Yoshi, and Kamek at least appear alongside "unnamed generic" members of the species. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:52, November 3, 2019 (EST) | ||
On closer inspection, I think a bit of a mix-up happened here. In the Japanese version of ''Super Mario 64'', the Big Boo is actually referred to as 「おやかたテレサ」 (''Oyakata Teresa'') in the title for Go on a Ghost Hunt, which is the name reused for ''Mario Party 2''; however, in the title for Big Boo's Balcony, it's instead described as 「ボステレサ」 (''Bosu Teresa''), which is more in line with 「ボスどんけつ」 (''Bosu Donketu'', Big Bully). I think it was supposed to be named Oyakata Teresa since that's what it's called in the ''Super Mario 64'' section of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', even when describing the mission with "Boss Teresa" in the title on page 88. On page 85, its description also called it 「大きなテレサ。」 (''A | On closer inspection, I think a bit of a mix-up happened here. In the Japanese version of ''Super Mario 64'', the Big Boo is actually referred to as 「おやかたテレサ」 (''Oyakata Teresa'') in the title for Go on a Ghost Hunt, which is the name reused for ''Mario Party 2''; however, in the title for Big Boo's Balcony, it's instead described as 「ボステレサ」 (''Bosu Teresa''), which is more in line with 「ボスどんけつ」 (''Bosu Donketu'', Big Bully). I think it was supposed to be named Oyakata Teresa since that's what it's called in the ''Super Mario 64'' section of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', even when describing the mission with "Boss Teresa" in the title on page 88. On page 85, its description also called it 「大きなテレサ。」 (''A huge Boo.'') - the same description as all the other incarnations of Big Boo in the rest of the book, meaning that the ''Sunshine'' Boos are not described as such. Also note that ''oyakata'' can translate to "boss" (or "chief," "master," etc.), which is probably why it's alternatively referred to as the Boss Teresa. Basically, it was ''Super Mario Pia'' that took the name of the latter mission literally and interpreted them as the same entity. A similar thing happened with Big Piranha Plant, in which ''Pia'' listed a SM64 appearance seemingly based on the Japanese title of the Pluck the Piranha Flower mission, despite the fact that it's actually Big Fire Piranha. ''Pia'' has a somewhat spotty track record when it comes to listing appearances, mostly due to not being made fully aware of name changes. Mind, this doesn't explain why the obviously Big Boo of ''Super Mario Ball'' reused the name from ''Super Mario Sunshine'', but it does at least put more doubt in the assessment of ''Pia''. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 21:21, November 6, 2019 (EST) | ||
:I'd always taken it to be that the "Go on a Ghost Hunt" one was the owner of the house and as such a "special" one, given he gets the narrative introduction in his level after the Boos are defeated and nothing of the sort happens with the other two. Both names are in-game and seem to be "proper" in their writing. And I'm not pushing that the ''Sunshine'' one is individually the same as anything from SM64, I'm saying it's an evolution of the concept like any other previously-shown SMS thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:02, November 6, 2019 (EST) | :I'd always taken it to be that the "Go on a Ghost Hunt" one was the owner of the house and as such a "special" one, given he gets the narrative introduction in his level after the Boos are defeated and nothing of the sort happens with the other two. Both names are in-game and seem to be "proper" in their writing. And I'm not pushing that the ''Sunshine'' one is individually the same as anything from SM64, I'm saying it's an evolution of the concept like any other previously-shown SMS thing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:02, November 6, 2019 (EST) | ||
::Could be, but ''Encyclopedia'' attributes all three to Oyakata Teresa and makes no direct mention of Boss Teresa outside of the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' section. Of course, some of the names between the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' guides are slightly different, so maybe it's indeed referred to as Boss Teresa in one of them, but my impression is that either it was meant to be taken as a quick descriptor or it might've been a placeholder that was overlooked after finalizing the name elsewhere (with a word that is ostensibly a Japanese equivalent). It would be better to confirm the case with more sources. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:55, November 6, 2019 (EST) | ::Could be, but ''Encyclopedia'' attributes all three to Oyakata Teresa and makes no direct mention of Boss Teresa outside of the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' section. Of course, some of the names between the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Super Mario 64 DS'' guides are slightly different, so maybe it's indeed referred to as Boss Teresa in one of them, but my impression is that either it was meant to be taken as a quick descriptor or it might've been a placeholder that was overlooked after finalizing the name elsewhere (with a word that is ostensibly a Japanese equivalent). It would be better to confirm the case with more sources. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:55, November 6, 2019 (EST) | ||
:::Do the mission titles lack spaces entirely in-game? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:38, November 6, 2019 (EST) | :::Do the mission titles lack spaces entirely in-game? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:38, November 6, 2019 (EST) | ||
::::A space structure is present and generally used as you'd expect, but some of the emphasis is off; for example, "Can the Eel Come Out to Play?" emphasizes ''Kyodai Utsubo'' instead of just ''Utsubo'', and "Chip Off Whomp's Block" weirdly emphasizes ''King'' instead of ''Battan King'', and as already mentioned, ''Kyodai Packun Flower'' in "Pluck the Piranha Flower" probably wasn't intended to be its actual name. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 01:47, November 7, 2019 (EST) | |||
:::::OK, so what about Mother Teresa the Bossy? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:57, November 7, 2019 (EST) | |||
::::::Both fit in-game space structure, but in my opinion Boss Teresa is inconclusive as a name or the intent until we can check guide sources, especially since Encyclopedia's wording implies it isn't the same as ''Sunshine'' Boo. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 02:00, November 7, 2019 (EST) | |||
:I vote no, because King Boo talks about one character in one game; Big Boo talks about an entire Boo species. [[User:Scout1534|Scout1534]] ([[User talk:Scout1534|talk]]) 20:27, December 7, 2019 (EST) | |||
::Except the "Big Boo" sections for Yoshi's Safari, Mario Party 3, Paper Mario TTYD, Super Paper Mario, SMG2, Luigi's Mansion DM, Paper Mario SS.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:30, December 7, 2019 (EST) | |||
I have absolutely no authority here, but personally I think it's best to keep it as it's own page. If someone is looking for the King Boo from Mario Sunshine, they're not gonna think to look at the Big Boo page, if anything they're going to look at the King Boo page, although I don't think that this character is the same as either of those two, seeing as it has a unique design. Sure, a redirect from the King Boo page to the Big Boo page is just a small inconvenience, but it's the same for Sunshine King Boo how it is right now. Also I have no idea if I am doing this right or if I just missed something [[User:Superfroakie82|Superfroakie82]] ([[User talk:Superfroakie82|talk]]) 17:17, May 1, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:You're doing it right, don't worry. Anyways, I'm holding off on this for now to see in any more information that points either way can be scrounged up. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:23, May 1, 2020 (EDT) | |||
Oppose, yeah sure they are similar but Big Boo isn’t a fake thing created imagery. Also, Chorobe, the Monty Mole in Sunshine makes a lot of sense for having it’s own article. [[Special:Contributions/174.244.115.62|174.244.115.62]] | |||
He has a crown, therefore he's a separate character. The end, as far as I'm concerned. - [[User:AwdryFan1997|AwdryFan1997]] ([[User talk:AwdryFan1997|talk]]) 13:12, January 8, 2021 (EST) | |||
:Letting the Japanese name (or "language of origin") be the absoloute deciding factor in cases like this will just make things a lot more confusing to a majority of readers. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} | |||
::I have seen complaints about this, but while I can understand using various criteria to decide and thus keeping any decision about this on hold for now, we have to face how if you deal with the Mario franchise you might eventually have to deal with the Japanese language. That the wiki and most of its readers are English and thus might find the Japanese sources confusing is a problem of ours, the franchise itself was created and now is handled by Japanese employees of a Japanese company and as such inevitably the official Japanese sources take precedence over the rest.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:36, January 8, 2021 (EST) | |||
:::In my opinion, a major part of the issue with putting so much stock in the Japanese (or whatever the language of origin is) names alone is that it assumes those developers are infallible and never give the same name to multiple subjects that are intended to be different, whether intentionally or accidentally (or on the other side of the coin, give different names to what is meant to be the same subject). We see it happen all the time in translations so I don't see why it can't happen in the original versions. In this case, King Boo is ''a'' Big Boo, but is he a unique individual or just Sunshine's iteration of a standard Big Boo? Unfortunately we'll never know for absolute certain barring a statement from the developers since no other Big Boos appear in the game, though I will note that Big Boos almost always behave identically to normal Boos, which King Boo clearly doesn't. Either way, I'd prefer to keep this split per my stance in the recent Lava Piranha debate. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:07, January 8, 2021 (EST) | |||
::::Indeed, we didn't move the page even though they have the same Japanese name and an official source (the ''Super Mario Pia'') stated that they are the same boss. They are too different and it looks like we really need developers' input on this one. Still, keep in mind that we're dealing with ''Super Mario Sunshine'', and Nintendo explicitly stated that the enemy there have a different appearance (even further explaining that this is due to them stemming from Bowser Jr.'s graffiti, that in the case of this boss effectively matches his defeat animation). We can't fully rely on just appearance and behavior as well.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 19:35, January 8, 2021 (EST) | |||
== Decide which article this page can be merged with == | |||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|failed|0-1-0-11|Keep split}} | |||
The King Boo of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' could possibly be merged. We are just wondering which page that the article for the King Boo of ''Super Mario Sunshine'' can be merged with. | |||
There are four choices: | |||
#Merge with [[Big Boo]] – The Japanese name is shared with the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Mario Pinball Land'' iterations. | |||
#Merge with [[Mega Boo]] – The Japanese names are Boss Boo for ''Super Mario Sunshine'' (shared with the ''Super Mario 64'' and ''Mario Pinball Land'' iterations of Big Boo) and Giant Boo for ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'', with the French, German, and Spanish names shared with the ''Super Mario Galaxy 2'' iteration, while the Italian names are King Boo for ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and Mega Boo for ''Super Mario Galaxy 2''. | |||
#Merge with [[King Boo]] – The French, German, Italian, and Spanish names are shared with the iterations of the games in the ''Super Mario'' franchise like with the ''Luigi's Mansion'' series. | |||
#Do nothing – Keep these articles listed above split. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 7, 2024, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Merge with Big Boo=== | |||
===Merge with Mega Boo=== | |||
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal | |||
===Merge with King Boo=== | |||
===Do nothing=== | |||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Heck, dude, I know I suggested a merge to Big Boo some years ago, but right now I'm waiting on some word from the Japanese ''Mario Party'' guide. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick/Projects/Boss Teresa|This]] is how I'm seeing it right now (see also [[Talk:Big Boo#Big Boo (character)|this]] discussion and [https://www.marioboards.com/threads/47386/#post-2369256 this] post on the forums), so not merging this anywhere, rather merging parts of Big Boo here. But again, I'm waiting on some confirmation for an unconfirmed name. There's a fine line between "change for the sake of accuracy," which is what I attempt for, and "change for the sake of change." | |||
#{{user|Nintendo101}} per above. | |||
#{{user|LadySophie17}} I feel this Boss Boo has enough distinguishing features to warrant its own page. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} As someone with very little knowledge on speaking, understanding and translating other languages, all I can really gather from this situation is that this large sized Boo has a naming inconsistency. Yes, it's known as King Boo in many different regions and yes, the original Japanese names indicates a potential relation to the Big Boo from ''Super Mario 64''. However, I also don't exactly see a clear cut answer to which is the intended result. Is it meant to be King Boo and the choice was changed very late into development or was there a translation error and other places just started naming it King Boo due to the similarities to the one that made it's recent debut in ''Luigi's Mansion''? I'm leaning more on agreeing with Doc here; maybe hold off until (or if) new and more precise information arises. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} I feel like this is putting too much stock into inconsistent naming alone as a sole deciding factor regardless of anything else, which is one thing, but also I fail to see how the names could point to one of the suggested merges more than any of the others (if they even point to any of them). Given the [[Big Boo#Names in other languages|inconsistent names]] Big Boo seems to have anyway, none of these merges seem particularly compelling with this little evidence. | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all | |||
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} The discrepancy about how this man is split has always admittedly bothered us a little bit, but honestly our preferred action would be to split the ''Luigi's Mansion'' King Boo into his own article--not try to merge ''this'' guy into any article. He is far more distinct than even the LM King Boo is from the "generic" King Boo, even down to the Japanese name being different. And merging him into either [[Big Boo]] or [[Mega Boo]] appeals to us even less... | |||
#{{User|MarioComix}} Per all. The inconsistent naming would result in having a very incoherent page if merged together with Big Boo or Mega Boo, on basis of the Japanese name "Boss Teresa", since we'd refer to it by different name in every section, and no one name is more prominent than the other. And I don't believe it's our standard practice to have the page go by the Japanese name if we have the English name available. (If only there ''were'' a Boss Boo named as such.) | |||
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} This "King Boo" is uniquely distinct from the King Boo we know in more ways than one, and merging in his article will likely only cause confusion. | |||
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. | |||
===Comments=== | |||
@Camwoodstock: Might be going slightly off-topic but I strongly disagree with splitting King Boo between Luigi's Mansion and not, as not only do they seem to share names in every language, multiple [[List of King Boo profiles and statistics|profiles]] directly call them the same character (e.g. the Smash Bros. trophy), and Mario Kart Tour has the Luigi's Mansion King Boo as a variant of King Boo. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:39, February 26, 2024 (EST) | |||