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 == Welp I missed the proposal deadline ==
 But now that I've got some time again, the show must go on so here's something I threw in why Boss Bass being Big Cheep Cheep is a baffling thought.
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 :::::::::::::::::::"Big" is still more "the" singular trait, though. To make this easier, looking at pre-''Bakubaku'' games, the only one where "eating" was truly the "main" trait was ''Mario Teaches Typing'', where the same role was given to a weird cyborg cyclops Blooper. <s>Anyways, in regards to ESMB, I'm a little iffy on even using the Japanese version for splits, due to questionable sources in bibliographies of some of those books, as they appear to include unofficial guides as well.</s> EDIT: Nevermind, that's actually from the SMB3 manual it seems. Anyways, perhaps ''that'' page could be reorganized after further investigation, but this one is simply more clear-cut than that. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:03, September 5, 2020 (EDT)
 ::::::::::::::::::::So is Cat Bullet Bill's main trait being a cat? Or YS big Blurps' main traits being red and blue, per the guide? Mario Teaches Typing was from different developer with little involvement from Nintendo, but even if taken at face value it would be a logical step for the transition from Boss Bass to Cheep Chomp, making eating even more prominent. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:58, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
-:::::::::::::::::::::Cat Bullet Bill's main ''differentiating feature'' is being a cat, as are the big Blurps' relative to each other (note how they share a blurb despite being given different names in the JP guide). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:09, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::Cat Bullet Bill's main ''differentiating feature'' is being a cat (sometimes they drop Super Bells like how Tail Bullet Bills drop Super Leaves), as are the big Blurps' color relative to each other (note how they share a blurb despite being given different names in the JP guide). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:09, September 6, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::That's basically the same thing. "Cat Bullet Bills' traits/features/differentiating features/differentiating traits compared to Bullet Bills are cat-like appearance, occasionally dropping Super Bells and homing capacities." "Big Blurps' traits/features/differentiating features/differentiating traits compared to small Blurps in Yoshi's Story are being big, stalking Yoshis and eating them for an instant miss and, depending on color, red ones jumping after them and blue ones squirting water if the Yoshi is on solid ground". [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 15:59, September 7, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::Yes, that is a list of all relevant traits for each, not necessarily just the singular defining ones, though. In regards to ''all'' relevant traits, normal-sized Cheep Cheep and Porcupuffer have also been given the "eating" trait before and are ''certainly'' not the same as Boss Bass. It's even also the theme of the totally unrelated Lunge Fish. So...your point? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:39, September 7, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::My point is, what's your point? If Cat Bullet Bill being a cat is its main differentiating feature, does that make homing its main trait? Because by that logic, Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp's main differentiating trait is being big, angry-eyed buck-toothed Cheep Cheeps and their main trait eating. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:07, September 8, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::🤦🏻♀️ "Main trait" = "main differentiating feature" = "main defining characteristic" = "main distinguishing attribute." The difference from what you're saying is that by definition "the main trait" is a ''singular'' trait, not ''every single attribute at once''. On another note, your argument there cannot be made without ''also'' merging Bub and N64 ''Mario Party'' Cheeps to Blurp, since they're all goggle-wearing fish with wide mouths and short, blunt fins, along with having the primary trait of swimming around with a gaping expression; basically, not like "typical" Cheep Cheeps at all. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:46, September 8, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::Yes it can, because SM64 is an anomaly to several enemy designs and swimming around with a gaping expression is typical Cheep Cheep behavior, not to mention that Blurps themselves borrowed that behavior and ended up omitted out. Both Cheep and Chomp then returned to form while the latter retained the Jp name makeover. Also who says main trait can only be singular, as in there being main ''trait'''s'''''? [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 14:16, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::::Because the size for "main traits" can be made arbitrarily large, for example, putting amount of teeth as one when that doesn't affect anything. And even then, since a majority of K. Pukus in SMB3 didn't care about eating Mario, it was not a trait that differentiated them as a whole. Also, Cheeps don't normally have a "gaping" expression, they have an only slightly opened mouth usually. Also, while you say it was an anomaly for several enemy designs, no other ones made it look like a completely different pre-existing enemy. (Honestly, the only other "totally off" design I can think of off the top of my head is Thwomp, itself likely based on the SMK appearance to be frugal with polygons and textures. Typical Cheep Cheep could have been made with less textures than Bub.) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:48, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Yet it was the trait that was made in transition to Cheep Chomp the main behavior trait paired with its main appearance traits, namely the teeth and eyes, and of course never being smaller than normal Cheeps. The point about SM64 Bullet Bills still stands because when majority of prior artwork and sprites gave them hands and/or a grinning mouth, SM64 gave it Banzai Bill's design with wide open mouth and no hands so that's another enemy looking like another pre-existing one. And that difference between Cheeps and Blurps is pretty small when the latter have pretty similar mouths in artwork with the former and the difference itself comes from the sprites, so both really have slightly opened mouths or gaping expressions depending on one's opinion. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 14:16, September 14, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Bullet Bill is ''also'' likely a polygon number thing. Anyways, where do you think Blurp fits in all of this? Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that looks to me like you've been mostly dancing around that without making a definitive statement on where you think it belongs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:08, September 14, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Blurp is hardly relevant. The only known statements about Cheep Chomp group it with Cheep Cheep (like the Jp SSBB Cheep Cheep trophy), its appearances in lieu of vanilla big Cheep Cheep make it behave like a man-eating big Cheep Cheep, its appearance in SM64 complete with sunglasses makes it a man-eating big eye-accessory wearing Cheep Cheep, and it didn't have any known statements tying it to Blurp or shared game appearances with Blurp in functional role. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 13:33, September 16, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::I guess my question was not clear (thanks, translators). I meant ''Yoshi's Story'' Blurp. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:05, September 16, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Sure you did, don't blame your vagueness on translators. Anyhoo, YS big Blurps are in an awkward position because that's another game with weird enemy iterations. Clearly they're separate from Cheep Chomp with whom they coexisted in the same era, but if they really are the same as Big Cheep Cheeps, then they also went through a Japanese name change, just less drastic as Kyodai Pukupuku > Bakubaku. And if that means losing their eating trait, so what? That's not what I disagree with, what I do disagree with is Boss Bass losing both its major acting trait and its appearance just to turn into a vanilla big enemy while another allegedly distantly related enemy inherits both. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:00, September 18, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::No reason to take that contemptuous accusatory tone, I was tired, busy, and honestly forgot I hadn't specified (and may have temporarily forgot the green one in general). Regardless, it ''is'' identified as a "(word for large) Pukupuku," with the guide giving some color variant names (since aside from Black Shy Guy and the Jellies, they're the only real "color variant" enemies with actual behavioral differences in the game). And again, it's not consistently "vanilla" now, either, since it had all sorts of unique moves in PMSS (unlike, for instance, the Big Buzzy Beetle from the same game, countering the "but RPG" argument). Regardless, the fact that YS Blurp looks exactly like multiple unused iterations of a large Cheep, one of which was ''certainly'' Boss Bass, along with the shared identification of being simply a giant Cheep Cheep and the strikingly similar behavior makes it fairly logical to say they are the same. And as you pointed out, Bubba couldn't really be the same as big Blurp, and given only big Blurp looks like how Boss Bass did at the time, it seems a more likely candidate. Now, since Baku is less likely to be K. Puku at its inception, that goes for all other appearances down the line. And hammering that home, big Blurp looks like and is described as simply a big Cheep Cheep. The only time Baku was directly identified as a large-sized Cheep that I can remember was the ''Pia'' guide. Again, it's about the gradual progression. It's not an abrupt role change. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:21, September 18, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::If unused generic Big Cheep Cheep sprites are supposed to represent Boss Bass, the same also applies to the supposed early model of Bubba. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:15, September 19, 2020 (EDT)
+<small>(indent reset)</small> Which the compilers call Buku, provided the picture isn't a Puku at a different size than in the final (note how Monty Mole is set at 1/4th of its default size in-game and is labeled as "[[Mega Mole|Indy]]"). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, September 19, 2020 (EDT)
+:What does that matter when Bub and Bubba were made to look so close like each other? It makes ”Puku” and ”Buku” filenames weird because initially there'd be essentially a same enemy given two files, with the latter having the ”Puku” eyes hidden among its ”Buku” files. That actually lessens the impact of ”Buku” since what is essentially a copy of ”Puku” under the codename ”Buku” ends up developed from its files into a big chompy fish like Boss Bass. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 14:15, September 24, 2020 (EDT)
+::They honestly hardly look any more different than Puku and Buku in SMW or SML2, but certainly much more different than the big and small Cheeps in ''Yoshi's Story'' (and the unused SMW one, which as can be seen by the mouth, stance, and resemblance to Porcupuffer is ''definitely'' Boss Bass). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:21, September 24, 2020 (EDT)
+:::Isn't that just ”suspiciously similar substitution” you brought up in [[Talk:Beezley#Merge_Bee (Wario Land II) here|the Beezley proposal]]? The unused SMW big Cheep sprites themselves aren't seen in action so that leaves the appearance which alone isn't really enough to directly connect it to Boss Bass, same with big YS Blurps which bear closer resemblance to the unused sprites, and when that middleman is cut for direct Boss Bass / big Blurp comparation, despite their voracious trait they still go by different names and don't behave identically. The latter's desciption as ”ookina Pukupuku” isn't without its faults either since the big enemies' Jp names, especially in the mainline games, are written in all nouns (kyodai, deka), not with adjectives (kyodaina, dekai) which are used for flavor text like what ''Pia'' does with Bakubaku and Big Piranha Plant (kyodaina Deka Pakkun in P. Plant's description) and [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4K90Lq5YbU&t=4m09s Jp Brawl with Petey Piranha]. And as I said, the Jp Brawl trophy of Cheep Cheep mentions Cheep Chomp, as a ”rather big” type of subspecies where the English version only mentions ”enormous ones”. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:03, September 26, 2020 (EDT)
+::::That's ignoring the fact that no other WL4 enemies are returning (named or otherwise), while SMW used multiple returning species with new characteristics (Troopas, Dry Bones, Boos, Cheeps themselves, Bullet Bills) alongside similar substitutes ("Goombas," AFH Bro, Sumo Bro), and regardless, considering the similarity to the previous iteration of Porcupuffer sprites, it's reasonable to assume they'd act similar. YS also didn't really have any other "large counterpart" enemies, so just calling them "Pukupuku" is understandable. As for "Aka Puku" and "Aoi Puku," those aren't so much separate names as much as a color variable for the same enemy, as they are listed in the guide that referred them as such. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:51, September 26, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::Actually, Akapuku and Aopuku fall under Cheep Cheep variant naming in Japan which began with Spiny Cheep by replacing the first two kana; Togepuku, Nigepuku, Mekapuku etc. It thus isn't simply acknowledging color variables as with most others since not only is the color itself directly a part of their name, but it's also combined with a unique pattern Cheeps have, so they are definitely separate names. That makes them more of their own separate thing from other big Cheeps, especially Big Cheep Cheep itself who is thus a substitute enemy both as a similar-looking enemy and in how they look compared to normal Cheeps of their time. Also, the fact that in SMW Galoombas appeared in place of Goombas yet were mistaken for their cousins means the unused big Cheep would just as well be a planned new enemy instead of reimagined Boss Bass. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:47, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::Except Goombas and Galoombas don't look even basically the same nor do their poses lend to them having identical behavior. And while behavior does change (that being one of the main pillars of this merge), it was clear even then that those "Goombas" were not the same as the others (and MPA and SMA4 proved it utterly). On a side note, what is Nigepuku? I can't find that one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:30, October 3, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::That didn't prevent the translators from mistaking Galoomba for Goomba, especially in the same game where Koopa Troopa got its changes (and a "split" variety in Beach Koopa). Thus according to their mistake, Goombas were made different for SMW. SMA4 doesn't help with that since SMW Bowser Statues also appear which would make the case for "SMW iterations of enemies SMA4 with SMB3 ones". Even MPA is debatable with that stance in mind since a translator not knowing any better about the SMW situation would think of "Kuribon" as a quirky Goomba NPC name akin to [[Akiki]]. The unused big Cheep has even less going for it since how it would have behaved is ultimately major guesswork. Since the translators made such a mistake, how can it be said you wouldn't fall into a similar trap because of the looks of the sprites? (And Eep Cheep is Nigepuku.) [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:36, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::Because these actually do look the same relative to the respective normal Cheep Cheep (note the SMW Cheep looked a tad funky), with the addition of the striking similarities to the Porcupuffer (which ''does'' appear in the final, now looking even more like the original Boss Bass). The "giant open mouth" while looking simply like a big Cheep Cheep is what sells it; the only, for example, "squishing" sprites for Galoomba I know of were found unused in the SNES Test Program. As for why I'm still connecting this to Big Cheep Cheep and not Cheep Chomp, that's still the point about iterative design/purpose evolution and the original name. Also, I'm not entirely convinced Kurribon->Goomba was a "mistake;" I'm thinking it was a heavily misguided attempt to make them seem more familiar. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:50, October 9, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::It's one thing to make note of similarities and another using those similarities to draw connections. Those who made Kuribons ”Goombas” may have used the same logic as you by looking at their eyes and mouths and decided the two are a same thing based on just that. And going by that, if that big Cheep was supposed to resemble anything then it would actually be Rip van Fish since the two have similar sprites matching in how they move and look. Speaking of which, all small fishes have exactly two swimming sprites that alternate between mouth open and mouth closed just as the big Cheep does, which implies heavily it was never going to an eating type. That's a point against gradual evolution because you'd have Boss Bass turn into big Rip van Fish, then into voracious YS Blurp before becoming generic Big Cheep Cheep. The Porcupuffer comparison is a stretch because the only similarity is the eyes while its mouth is still smaller, and the fact that it was always meant to be closed which the artwork at the time reflected. At least with Boss Bass and Cheep Chomp the appearance is clearly similar as the character design starts settling down and becoming more standardized in DS/Wii generation and the voracious trait becomes more prominent, and again, you still need another enemy to take the original's appearance and a primary trait for transition to Big Cheep Cheep to work when no such case has been known to have happened before when the two appear together. Btw, you're wrong with the RPG argument because PMSS Big Buzzy has a back-shell spin that normal Buzzys don't while Big Spiny in Color Splash can charge up its attack. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:39, October 16, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::Hm, there is a resemblance to Rip Van Fish (primarily when set to blue). However, I don't recall ever seeing normal Rip Van Fish in any of those early documents...potentially meaning that Rip Van Fish as an entity evolved from this fish. And in that case, flapping its mouth underwater while somehow not eating the player is basically what Big Bertha did, though this may have been intended to act similar to the later Bakubaku. Rip Van Fish is kinda OP in the final, so if it was even worse in the early builds, softening it by making it smaller and fall asleep (thus making a different enemy) makes some sense. I'm still skeptical of this not being at least envisioned as a Big Cheep at the time of creation, though, there's some normal Cheep sprites there that, since they exist elsewhere, were likely being used for reference for the larger version. Additionally, note how the one on the far left ''does'' look more like Cheeps than Rips, and due to the crude way its mouth is drawn it is almost certainly the initial revision. Now, I can't say I expected to see a missing link between Boss Bass and Rip Van Fish, but here we are (this also means my earlier belief that Rips were completely distinct from Cheeps has been disproven). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:30, October 18, 2020 (EDT) [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:57, October 16, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::The possible [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#chr-stock-8.CGX|Rip Van Fish]] connection is interesting, but note that the [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#chr-stock-9.CGX|big Cheep Cheep]] is facing and looking upwards as if it is leaping out of the water, unlike [[tcrf:Prerelease:Super Mario World (SNES)/Sprites#v-ram-kabe.CGX|regular Cheep Cheep]]. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:20, October 19, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::Hmmm... I missed the proposal... Not entirely sure how to proceed here. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 14:51, October 18, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::So is Rip van Fish who is only found underwater. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:16, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::The early iterations of Biggo there are clearly just looking forward, though, unlike Ripper. And I guess I was wrong about a lack of Rips then, but the earliest big guys still looks more like Kyodai and less like Riptup. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:42, October 24, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::There's really no telling which big fish sprites came first when Rip's top left set resembles the final design the most. Even the lone "blue" sprite could be the latest or intended iteration. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:00, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::Well, all I can tell you on that is I myself am a spriter who has made sprites off Boss Bass going through many iterations, and as such I ''generally'' can tell how design iterations work from the roughness. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:17, October 27, 2020 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::But what good is that for when your sprites are merely your intepretation of Boss Bass design evolution vs. potentially multiple spriters/art directors behind each game who may scrap the early designs, no matter how fine-tuned, then use them as basis to make something else or start from the scratch? That's what I mean by there's no really telling, the big fish with big irises may as well be the first rough design but ”no, no eyes like that” and so they made the irises smaller. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:46, November 3, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::My point is that I have a decently large amount of direct experience with that process, which is a lot more than most other people here can say. I know it's not proof, but it's still relevant experience. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:36, November 3, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::Also, consider that we are aware of developers constantly recycling old ideas and clearly referencing Nintendo's unused internal material, so yes, I wouldn't hesitate to say that such things still play a not-insignificant factor in the overall design process even now. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:28, November 4, 2020 (EST)
+::::::::::::::::::@'''doc''' Hardly. Any arts major can make ”I'm an expert” claims like that but if they use their own artwork and experience as the point for the evolution of someone else's artwork and experience, they'll be just citing themselves. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:08, November 11, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::::I can tell what looks more blatantly crude, all right? Don't make inappropriate non-comparisons, I didn't claim to be an "expert." From what I can tell, all your arguments at this juncture stem from a big "but what if the opposite," and is not getting anywhere. This has gone on for three and a half months and has gone nowhere in that time. I'd suggest putting it on hold until you can find something more concrete, like I did when suggesting merging them initially. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:53, November 11, 2020 (EST)
+::::::::::::::::::::But you did say you're an experienced spriter when I pointed out there's no telling what's the chronology of the sprite sets. That doesn't shield your view from criticism or second opinions which you want me to stop by telling me to shut it until I find something more concrete while pretending your claim has gone undisputed. When the sprites' order is virtually impossible to tell, your experienced take is as much of a guess as mine. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 16:53, November 12, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::::::Just look at the lips on it, though, when they're sloppily divided it's clearly less finished than the ones with the smoothly connected lips. And while it ''could'' theoretically possible that they made the ones on he right first and started a rather boxy redesign before giving up completely halfway through, it just seems less likely from both a practical, economical, and artistic perspective. Anyways, I'm trying not to be rude here, but you are indeed the only person who is actively contesting it, with most others either begrudgingly accepting or not caring. But I'm not trying to peer pressure you here. I'm saying this conversation is pointlessly going in circles and the one thing you've brought up that legitimately made me need to stop and think for a bit was the Rip van Fish resemblance. Much as I did with Lava Piranha, therefore, stopping and waiting for something new to come up is most likely the best course of action for you, because as it stands, this is just needlessly taking time from both of us. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:04, November 12, 2020 (EST)
+::::::::::::::::::::::Those lips looking unfinished to you doesn't equal the ”blue” sprite being an earlier design. YS big Blurps have similar sloppy lips and Cheep Chomp has a bigger upper lip which is especially prominent in Sticker Star, so the weird lips sprite is actually the basis for the later designs. As for your Lava Piranha case, you'd also have to tackle how Wiggler and Flutter are currently handled.  [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:25, November 14, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::Drawing does not equal modeling. YS things were all made from very simple 3D forms placed in near proximity; note that Gabon, Don Bongo, Spiked Fun Guy, and Puffer all used the same feet, just recolored, while Pak E. Derm, Gabon, Don Bongo, and several other things had the same body with different textures and things sticking out from them. The renders were rather crude, but it's what they had to work with for smooth modeling at the time. Additionally, the prominent upper lip in later designs has nothing to do with the outright janky angles this sprite's lips are drawn in. As for Wiggler and Flutter, no, those actually have precedent of appearing together within the same game. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:46, November 15, 2020 (EST)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::Mario World and Yoshi's Story both had Shigefumi Hino as a major CG designer so his art style is prominent in those whether drawing or modeling. In SMW, Blurps and Rips also have notably bigger upper lips and Cheep Cheeps are ambiguous enough to be interpreted that way too, and in YS the ”Blurps” also have such lips. The weird lips of the ”blue” sprite are consistent with those regardless of how janky they are, the design is just refined for the fishes that made it in. And the point with Wiggler/Flutter was about MarioWiki coverage consistency because they and Fire/Lava Piranha are two iterations and forms of a same enemy which is considered enough for a split despite the shared Japanese names. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 17:33, November 19, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::Yeah but see if Flutter was only a one-time thing that didn't appear alongside normal Wiggler ''then'' it'd analogous to Lava Piranha. And in that case I'd support merging. Anyways, it's not just the lips, the eyes also look crude, and, logically speaking, why would they ''deliberately'' make more crude a game whose basic purpose was to be a colossal advancement over what had previously been released? It sounds like shooting oneself in the foot, in my opinion. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:13, November 19, 2020 (EST)
+::::::::::::::::::::::::::So you're adding an arbitary distinction to make the two cases seem different and would go for a likely unpopular option given the wiki track record of splitting subjects. SMW is a crude-looking game anyways with examples such as six-legged Spike Tops, Cheep Cheeps with extra fins and Blurps lacking fins. And if the big fish really is Boss Bass, then logically as Cheep was redesigned and got smaller pupils in the process, the big one would get similar treatment for proportional reasons since the bottom set makes it look like it's on speed and Porpupuffer's slanted irises are pretty small themselves. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 18:29, November 27, 2020 (EST)
+:::::::::::::::::::::::::::"Arbitrary distinction?" Bud that's ''exactly'' how Lava Piranha works. And while yes, many if not most SMW sprites are horrendous, making good sprites worse would not be the way to go. Most proto sprites compared to the final looked even worse, not better. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:11, November 28, 2020 (EST)
+===Did someone say 3D model===
+If anyone has any questions related to the 3d model of... uh... the subject matter, I'm all ears. Can someone condense this if that's an ongoing point being discussed here? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:33, November 27, 2020 (EST)
+:Well the discussion has... gone places but if you mean SM64 Bubba then tl;dr, it has files named "buku" (Blurp) but then eye textures for "puku" (Cheep Cheep) were found among them. Then later it was found out there's more unused files for "puku mother" which hasn't been brought up here yet. And I don't think the case for "buku" files in Yoshi's Story has been solved yet. [[User:SmokedChili|SmokedChili]] ([[User talk:SmokedChili|talk]]) 10:13, November 28, 2020 (EST)
+::More like too long; tried to read, but got lost. I think assets are reused all the time through game elements and if it saves them space to reuse textures for another enemy, they'll do that (textures at the time just can't exceed too much beyond a small space of, say, 64x64 pixels and color limitations probably come into play, and the aspect ratio has to be a factor of 2). The eye textures probably don't seem to be used since the space allocated for eyes just seem to be a solid color. Depends on how similar the meshes and uv look between the models but I think file names can be a bit jank in determining things since they don't always accurately reflect standard naming conventions. They could just attempt to reuse a mesh create files and folders for them, then decide to redesign the thing 100% but don't bother with retroactively renaming it because you have to redo what's written in the code (if I'm correct code reads file locations and file names; I'm not a coder) or you might have to change the material names assigned to an object (idk how older games do materials, but newer games have material information separate from texture files such as how Smash Ultimate has vertex coloration from a skin material assigned to areas that use the skin texture). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 11:27, November 28, 2020 (EST)
+:::I am a coder, and that sounds basically right, as other files need to be specifically called from within the base ones to be compiled properly. As for the specific details on the leaked models, LinkTheLefty has more information on those than I. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:27, November 28, 2020 (EST)
+==Yoshi's Story==
+Could we remove the "misnamed" from the Yoshi's Story section? I think it's not a case of misnaming so much as the Big Cheep Cheeps in that game look like Blurps (kinda like how Yoshi's Island DS strategy guides refer to Cheep-Chomps as Boss Basses because they reuse the Super Mario 64 DS model). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 10:53, April 4, 2024 (EDT)