Talk:Electro-Koopa King: Difference between revisions

Talk:Electro-Koopa King (edit)

Revision as of 16:23, October 2, 2022

14,899 bytes added , 1 year ago

→‎Boss

Doc von Schmeltwick

46,406

edits

@@ Line 4: / Line 4: @@
 == Name ==
-{{talk}}
 So, if it isn't named in-game, i guess it's in the Prima guide? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:08, April 12, 2019 (EDT)
 :And besides the Prima guide, do any guide mention it at any point? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:02, May 4, 2019 (EDT)
@@ Line 30: / Line 29: @@
 ::Giant Koopa is one of Big Koopa Troopa's old names, so IDK how that'll work. "Huge Red Electrokoopa" is a clear case of a name not following common sense at all and is misleading at the same time, so let's move it already. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 17:34, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
 :::I must emphasize that this ''is'' an enlarged version of the red kind, and not the blue kind. I don't think the guides ever call it "Elecro-Koopa" specifically. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:55, August 16, 2019 (EDT)
-::::I know that, but, and I cannot stress this enough, '''''the Electro-Koopa is green.''''' It may be a large variant of the red Electrokoopa, but it is {{color|green}}. The current name is misleading and makes no sense. I'd prefer a non-misleading identifier name over a misleading guide name. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 09:41, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+::::I know that, but, and I cannot stress this enough, '''''the Electro-Koopa is green.''''' It may be a large variant of the red Electrokoopa, but it is {{color|green|green}}. The current name is misleading and makes no sense. I'd prefer a non-misleading identifier name over a misleading guide name. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 09:41, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::If you really want to move Huge Red Electrokoopa to Electro-Koopa (green), then the consistent thing to do would also be to move Red Electrokoopa and Blue Electrokoopa to Electro-Koopa (red) and Electro-Koopa (blue), respectively. Move one of them, move all of them. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:35, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::Problem is, those have sourced names that aren't disgustingly misleading. We had "Electro-Koopa (green)" next to "Blue Electrokoopa" and "Red Electrokoopa" for years and nobody took issue with ''that''. If it's not broken, don't fix it. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 15:55, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::::Never mind, they were called "Electro-Koopa (color)" for years. I'd be fine with moving them back, really. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 15:58, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::::The name is not misleading, though. It is not trying to say that the Huge Red Electrokoopa is red. It is just saying that it is a large version of the Red Electrokoopas, which it is, even if it is green. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:06, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::::::I know it's a large Red Electrokoopa, but the name calls it red, when it is <u>'''''green'''''</u>. I'd go into more detail, but at this point I'm just repeating myself. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 16:09, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::::::I know that. But the "red" in its name is not referring to its color, it is just referring to what enemy it is a larger version of. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:13, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::::::::Also, [[Propeller Piranha|Hootie the Blue Fish]] is clearly purple, but that didn't warrant any argument. Names can be misleading. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:12, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::::::::Hootie's blue, the purple is just the lighting. Huge Red Electrokoopa can mean both "it's huge and red" and "it's a huge Red Electrokoopa". If a name is misleading, <big><u>'''''it should be changed.'''''</u></big> Readers of the article may be confused by the name. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 17:47, August 17, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::Hootie is very much purple, if anything, the blue is the lighting o_O. There's no red light to make it look purple in its environment. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:27, August 18, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::The {{tem|distinguish}} and {{tem|about}} templates exist for a reason. If we want to, we can even make "Green Electrokoopa" and "Huge Green Electrokoopa" redirect, because as shown with recent proposals unoffical name redirect are fine if they help users find the article they need. Going for an identifier is not the way to go. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 12:04, August 18, 2019 (EDT)
+:::::::::::::::If the idea is to move this page back to Electro-Koopa (green), i (much like LinkTheLefty) <u>'''''vehemently'''''</u> disagree giving the encyclopedia an ounce of chance. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:51, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+::::::::::::::::At this point, a proposal is probably needed. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:53, August 19, 2019 (EDT)
+== Determine wether to rename this page or not ==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|1-0-6-3-7}}
+So here above, is the discussion. While the Prima guide calls it "Huge Red Electrokoopa" twice, the other times use generic descriptors not capitalized instead of "huge". While it is green, it refers to which Electro-Koopa it is a large variant of. The other guides call it "Giant Koopa", while the Nintendo Power guide incompetely does not properly name it and generically refers it as "turtle". The encyclopedia calls it "Electro-Koopa (green)", however, that's because of us, since it wasn't called as such anywhere, and it's Japanese name isn't Denki Nokonoko (midori) either. Depending on the consensus, i will vote.
+'''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}
+'''Deadline:''' <del>September, 5, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to September, 12, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to September 19, 2019, 23:59 GMT</del> Extended to September 26, 2019, 23:59 GMT
+===Move back to Electro-Koopa (green)===
+<s>#{{User|Niiue}} Most straightforward name of the bunch.</s>
+#{{User|Scrooge200}} Easy to understand. Makes more sense than anything else here.
+===Move to Electro-Koopa (giant)===
+===Move to Giant Koopa (Electro-Koopa)===
+#{{User|Waluigi Time}} From the start I thought this was the most reasonable option, with Big Koopa Troopas being the only thing in the way, but the identifier takes care of this problem. While Huge Red Electrokoopa ''technically'' makes sense as a name, I'm not at all a fan of how misleading it is at first glance and how confusing it is to get to the proper conclusion; "it's not an Electrokoopa that's big and red, it's a Red Electrokoopa that's big and green." I also see no reason to throw away the English names we have in favor of a Japanese one.
+#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} Per Waluigi. "Huge Red Electro-Koopa" <s>just doesn't make sense</s> is misleading. I do think "Electro-Koopa (green)" or "Green Electro-Koopa" would be a better name, but that was conjectural and that darn encyclopedia just copied the name from us. This choice makes the most sense in my opinion.
+#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per both.
+#{{User|TheDarkStar}} Per all.
+#{{User|7feetunder}} Second choice.
+#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} Per all, particularly OMF.
+===Move to Dennoko King===
+#{{User|Niiue}} Although it's not as straightforward as I'd prefer, this feels like a better option than "Giant Koopa (Electro-Koopa)".
+#{{User|7feetunder}} I don't really like either of the other names; this seems like the best option to me.
+#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all.
+===Do not move the page at all (Don't do anything)===
+#{{User|Doomhiker}} As I said before, the current name is still accurate, and while misleading, the {{tem|about}} and {{tem|distinguish}} templates (at least the former, the latter may be merged depending on the results of that page's proposal which I support) exist to help with potentially misleading names. Plus, if we really want to evade confusion, we can create redirects such as "Green Electrokoopa" and the like, which is now acceptable considering recent proposals. In fact, the Giant Koopa name has a small amount of potential confusion with it not specifying that it is specifically an Electrokoopa, and the much more well known Giant Koopas could lead readers to think that this enemy could not possibly have the same name and thus would not even look at the page. Regardless, I don't want to sacrifice a unique name without an identifier for clarity when we can have clarity via other means, even if it being moved to Giant Koopa is not the end of this world. Electroopa (Green) is not an option I support at all though, we should never prioritize a conjectural name other official ones, unless said names are plagiarized (which Giant Koopa and Huge Red are not, but Elecrokoopa (Green) was actually stolen). Same with the Japanese name, we should go for good (not stolen or generic) English names over a name in another language.
+#{{User|1337star}} Every possible name is terrible, but this one's probably the least clunky, even if it has the red/green problem.
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Even if on the surface it seems inaccurate, it still is accurate in that the species itself is called "Red Electrokoopa" in English. Additionally, from what I can tell it was ''never'' identified simply as "Electro-Koopa" itself, making that title inaccurate from an official literature-standpoint. "Huge Red Electrokoopa" is not "inaccurate," per se, it's simply a misnomer, which happens plenty ([[Buzzy Beetle]] and the "sized" Boos from SMRPG for example), even in real-world species names (take the amount of species that have "-fish" or "-fly" in their names despite not being fish or flies). In fact, it's only a misnomer on the surface, because again, it ''is'' a huge version of the red ones, and is even defeated the same way.
+#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per all. To expand on the clunkiness of the other names: Electro-Koopa can refer to any variant (which is partly why the [[Electro-Koopa|disambiguation page]] has references) and the proposed identifier [[Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia#List of English translation mistakes and names from the Super Mario Wiki|came from us]], and Giant Koopa was also [[Big Koopa Troopa|taken]] and the articles' "about" template already mentions the situation adequately; while Dennoko King doesn't have these problems, we should still maintain an effort to adhere to the "another language" template's phrasing "If an official name from an English source is found, the article should be moved to its appropriate title," despite [[MarioWiki talk:Naming#Make an exception to source priority for articles with identical names|recent]] [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 52#Citing the Super Mario Encyclopedia|exceptions]]. Also, I meant it when I wrote that Red Electrokoopa and Blue Electrokoopa should be moved if this does.
+#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, my thoughts above, and especially LinkTheLefty. I also feel that the source priority exception proposal shows its flaws now, and should be overriden so that the English name takes priority.
+#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per all.
+#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} Second choice.
+===Comments===
+@Niiue We're not just considering the names themselves, but also the sources for them. "Electro-Koopa (green)" was a conjectural name that the Distasteful Encyclopedia took from us. The other names are official, but are from different sources. {{User:Obsessive Mario Fan/sig}} 11:42, August 21, 2019 (EDT)
+Why do the first two options use "Electro-Koopa" and not "Electrokoopa?" "Electrokoopa" is what the red and blue ones use. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 14:43, August 22, 2019 (EDT)
+:From the looks of things, "[[Electro-Koopa]]" was the only spelling used when talking about the species as a whole. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 14:47, August 22, 2019 (EDT)
+::Now i understand that you should kill it during its sleep, despite the fact that it's called "King". --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:16, August 29, 2019 (EDT)
+:::Uh, ja? Did you make this proposal without knowing how it works? o_o [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:29, August 29, 2019 (EDT)
+::::I did know about it, but i didn't know that it wouldn't not wake up until seeing a video. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:53, August 29, 2019 (EDT)
+== Boss ==
+{{talk}}
+So considering other bosses in the franchise have spent their entire battles asleep or otherwise unable to directly attack, "get through a challenging gauntlet and defeat the helpless boss by doing something trivial" is an actual boss type, and it is given the "king" name, singular focus in a level, and the goal is met when it is defeated, should we consider this too to be a boss? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:19, September 28, 2022 (EDT)
+:Under "'''Bothersome Big Bosses'''" on page 21 of the Prima guide: Piranha Plant in Generator, Petey the Piranha Plant, Gooper Blooper, Wiggler, El Piantissimo, Sand Bird, Mecha Bowser, Monty Mole, Great Sunflower, Huge Red Electrokoopa, Manta, King Boo, Eely-Mouth, Coin Fish, Shadow Mario, Bowser Jr., Bowser. It also says that "''Some are nasty, a few are friendly, but all are large and imposing!''" which is probably why the sunflower is listed. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:04, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+::Wow, I'd say the Snoozas, Chomplets, and Chomp are better candidates than some of those (following the Piranha Flower train of thought). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:21, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+:::Bosses usually have their own cinematic and a special music that plays and special animations and whatnot when you defeat them. This is definitely more of an "elite" Electro-Koopa but I don't think it qualifies IMO as a boss, but whatever they say, I'll roll with it. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 16:09, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+::::I wouldn't put much stock in that list if it considers a platform, a set of coins, and a friendly NPC "bosses". --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:46, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::Given that Prima's list of "bosses" is a total joke (the Great Sunflower, ''really''?), I'm gonna say EKK is ''not'' a boss. "King" does not necessarily mean boss (see: [[Lakitu King]] and [[King Coin Coffer]]), and all it does is sleep. At least the [[Big Bully]], which is barely a boss itself, actually fights back. You can't even compare EKK to [[Beef Cloud]], since the gimmick of that fight is that he heals himself in real time while asleep and you have to counter that. No thought goes into "fighting" EKK, it's all about ''reaching'' him. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:54, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::My vote goes to considering this a "notable enemy" rather than a boss, quite like with [[Squiddicus]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 18:33, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::OK well since this convo decided to only move on while I was at work, I want to point out that the music and cinematic situation is the same as Monty Mole's. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:51, September 30, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::I'd be fine reconsidering Monty Mole's boss status too, honestly. (Although it does take three hits to defeat, not sure if that matters at all.) Although before we go any farther, are there any other sources that specifically label bosses besides the Prima guide? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:22, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::::I suppose Montinger Z could be considered the same manner of "strong target enemy" as [[Astro-Lanceur]] and [[Yoofoe]], though that also calls into question half of what we have listed as bosses for ''Super Mario 64'', which ''do'' have official basis, and will egg me into bringing up [[Clerk]], [[Manager]], and [[Director]]'s treatment in-game as one-time generic enemies again. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:53, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::::Just wanna point out Astro-Lanceurs are not "target enemies"; they're just treated like normal enemies. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 11:16, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::::::Rusty memory; fine, extravagant multi-hit enemies. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:50, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::::::Astro-Launcer still isn't that; one ground pound and it's defeated, releasing a few coins. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:21, October 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:Curse my rotten memory...Yoofoe still stands, though. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:23, October 2, 2022 (EDT)