Talk:Deep Cheep: Difference between revisions

Talk:Deep Cheep (edit)

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 == Stop considering the green Cheep Cheeps in certain ''Super Mario Maker'' styles to be Blurps and Deep Cheeps: take 2 ==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|4-9|Failed}}
 So I attempted this on the Blurp talk page a while back, it failed mainly because they "still act like Blurp," which while true I do not find a valid reason. The fact of the matter is the green versions are consistently called "Cheep Cheeps" in ''every'' style, and [[River Fish in the Forest]]'s description doubles down on this. '''''Nothing''''' in any of the ''Super Mario Maker'' series '''ever''' uses the names "Blurp" or "Deep Cheep," only the wiki does ''in spite'' of what the games explicitly say. Also, it's not like the games didn't change names between styles and themes for ''other'' entities, like Spike Trap becoming Jelectro and Sea Urchin. Furthermore, this can't be a "Search Pukupuku" if it doesn't search. As for the nature of the design, Lakitu in ''Super Mario Kart'' reuses Fishin' Lakitu graphics, but we no longer consider that to be an actual Fishin' Lakitu appearance; the same goes for Chomps in ''Donkey Kong Land'' using Chomps Jr's design.
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 #{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
 #{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Per the [[Talk:Blurp#Consider the Super Mario Maker games a design cameo rather than a full appearance|previous proposal]]'s support. Why don't we call Peach's Daisy color scheme in the older ''Super Smash Bros.'' games a full-fledged appearance of Daisy while we're at it?
+#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, and my initial statements. There's no proof they're intended to be actual Blurps and/or Deep Cheeps. Just because they use the same sprites doesn't mean they're supposed to be this specific species.
+#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal. I'm fine with the Sand Cheep bridge staying uncrossed for the time being.
 ====Oppose====
 #{{User|Hewer}} Per the [[Talk:Blurp#Consider the Super Mario Maker games a design cameo rather than a full appearance|previous proposal]]'s opposition. If something appears, it should count as an appearance.
-#{{User|Somethingone}} "and River Fish in the Forest's description doubles down on this." - The River Fish in the Forest article literally shows in the infobox that there's regular-styled cheeps and blurps. How do you know it's specifically talking about the blurp-like ones and not the regular ones? And your design point isn't very strong; "Fishing Lakitus" were confused with Lakitus for a long time because they're literally just Lakitus with Fishing Poles, a trait later adopted by many many many normal lakitus. Blurps have a very different color AND a very distinguishable characteristic (the eyeglasses), so they're not going to be sharing designs with normal Cheeps unless Nintendo actually wants to retcon and merge two species into one. I think it's fine to call the ones in SMM/SMM2 Deep Cheeps and Blurps.
+#{{User|Somethingone}} "and River Fish in the Forest's description doubles down on this." - The River Fish in the Forest article literally shows in the infobox that there's regular-styled cheeps and blurps. How do you know it's specifically talking about the blurp-like ones and not the regular ones? And your design point isn't very strong; "Fishing Lakitus" were confused with Lakitus for a long time because they're literally just Lakitus with Fishing Poles, a trait later adopted by many many many normal lakitus. Blurps have a very different color AND a very distinguishable characteristic (the eyeglasses), so they're not going to be sharing designs with normal Cheeps unless Nintendo actually wants to retcon and merge two species into one. I think it's fine to call the ones in SMM/SMM2 Deep Cheeps and Blurps. Also, what about [[Slave Basa]], which is called a [[Swoop|Basa]] but is clearly a Fang variant? What about [[Sand Cheep]] which is called a Cheep Cheep but is clearly a Blurp?
 #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
 #{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Per previous proposal's opposition, especially 7feetunder's comment about the "intended goal" of the proposal.
 #{{User|Mustard Machine}} Per all. Somebody needs to figure out if there's a more controversial topic in mariowiki history then goddamn fish.
+#{{User|WildWario}} Per all.
+#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} This and the previous Blurp proposal seems to be drastically overthinking this. If there's some weird inconsistency in a game, just take note and move on. Don't see why there needs to be a proposal over this.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all, as well as the opposition from the previous proposal.
+#{{User|Mario4Ever}} Per all.
 ====Comments====
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 :Why would they look identical to Deep Cheeps if they were meant to just be normal Cheep Cheeps? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:25, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
 ::To fit with the style's established aesthetic. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 05:29, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
+::Regardless, if they are Search Pukupuku, ''why don't they search''? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:57, April 21, 2022 (EDT)
+:::Because they're the same situation as Jelectro/Spike Trap; an enemy replacement for one theme that shares the same slot in the gameplay as the enemy they replace. For them to be able to search they would've had a separate menu option/game entity in the game, but according to the files they're palette swaps of the same <tt>PukuPukuGreen</tt> entity(and Jelectro is the same situation, as the internal name data dump makes no mention of <tt>Shibire Kurage</tt>). I am removing my vote due to reading this over, but I do want to say that Japanese names aren't always indicative of an enemy's functions/classifications([[Roto-Disc|"Cookie"]] is clearly not edible, [[ComBat|"Sweaty Youngster"]] doesn't sweat in-game, [[Reznor|"Peace Sign"]] isn't peaceful, etc. etc.). [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 14:51, April 21, 2022 (EDT)
+::::It's the in-game vocals and labels too, Jelectro and Urchin are listed differently from Spike Trap but all green fish are just listed as "Cheep Cheep." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:14, April 21, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::Yeah it's inconsistent but I just don't see it as a strong reason to argue at length over. From how I see it, I'm not really on-board trying to enact changes on shaky terms being ''Super Mario Maker doesn't have these specific lines for these extremely derivative fish'' and ''the Japanese name for this generic creature now isn't applicable in this one game'' and it's evident from the oppose from this proposal and the earlier ones that I'm not the only one who thinks this. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 22:45, April 21, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::It follows the same logic of considering DT's Nipper Plants to be regular Nipper Plants and not Fire Nipper Plant IMO. The design is the ''only'' attribute suggesting they might be the other species, and in my opinion that's arbitrary and unconvincing. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:16, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
+:::::::Well we all know Nintendo has played fast and loose with a lot with these, resulting in being arbitrary splits and merges. Why not extremely briefly mention ''Dream Team''{{'}}s Nipper Plants in Fire Nipper Plant while most of the information is found in the main article? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:01, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
+::::::::That is precisely what I want to do here. People who've only played SMM are only gonna think of them as Cheep Cheep anyways. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:17, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
+@SomethingOne Yes, and we call Heavy Troopa a Paratroopa rather than a normal Troopa. Variants of variants can have names more like the original, and that does not correlate with a base species using a variant's design. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:19, April 22, 2022 (EDT)
+== Comments ==
+I do get that the Deep Cheep is called Search Pukupuku in the Japanese Super Mario Maker, but if this guy from the Super Mario Maker games acts like Green Cheep Cheeps and ''are called that in game'', then we should merge these two articles instead of the whole "they have Deep Cheep's appearances, ergo they should stay separate" (which to me is becoming increasingly common on the wiki). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 08:10, May 1, 2022 (EDT)
+:Actually my point is it's ''not'' called "Search Pukupuku" in SMM, but just "Pukupuku" - making it indeed just Cheep Cheep. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:51, May 1, 2022 (EDT)
+: So, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it ''is'' a duck and should be merged. (And I've noticed a fair few proposals have been opposed due to the fact that the characters have the same look ''even though'' they have the same Japanese names such as Bubble and Crazee Dayzees). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 15:13, May 1, 2022 (EDT)
+::I argue that "walks like a duck and quacks like a duck" is also paradoxically applicable here too, especially provided the overall inconsistent relationship between Japanese and English names (I do not believe Japanese names are reliable indicators on deciding to split/merge; developers in Japan also probably had a similar approach of playing fast and loose with names) throughout the wiki that does sometimes necessitate editor judgement call. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:32, May 1, 2022 (EDT)
+::: So, if you don't believe that Japanese names are reliable indicators on deciding to split/merge, then we should merge Blue Coin/Silver Coin from Super Mario Bros. 3 with the DDKR Silver Coins and re-merge the Ice Snifits, right? The point is, these "Deep Cheeps" are just Green Cheep Cheeps and furthermore, the Green Cheep Cheeps have the exact same file name as Deep Cheeps in Japan. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:56, May 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::Japanese names are not always the ultimate decider for merging and splitting things, and I think you're missing the point a bit with the situation here. As I said during the proposal, I'm personally a bit indifferent about the whole thing but the opposition stated that it was from the Deep Cheep/Blurp design being used that constituted as an appearance, languages didn't have much to do with it. The Bubble Dayzee/Crazee Dayzee thing however, from what I can tell the matching Japanese name was the only strong reasoning for merging, whereas the enemies themselves behave differently which is why the proposals failed and we are leaving them split (and this is from them appearing in the same game; the Paper Mario appearance isn't very relevant there). I should also point out, [[Talk:Goomboss#Have the Chesnut King on the List of implied characters redirect to this page|we currently have a proposal going on solely drawn from the Japanese name that is most certain to pass]], which is a case of mistranslation. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 13:32, May 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::Why would we even merge the ''DKR'' Silver Coins based on Japanese names when that game isn't even ''from'' Japan? If we decided everything based on Japanese names, then [[Vanna T.]] would be merged with [[Toadette]], and [[Boo Guy]]'s ''Partners in Time'' info would be moved to [[Greaper]]. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 13:37, May 2, 2022 (EDT)
+::::PrincessPeachFan: I didn't say Japanese names should be disregarded, but more like they aren't a consistent piece of information to rely on when deciding to split/merge/rename articles; i.e. sometimes they're good crutch especially supported by other evidence, but not all the time. Clarification: the Chestnut King matter is more clear-cut due to every other language sharing the same name as each other barring English ''and'' the weird inconsistent English translation aspects of Thousand-Year Door making that English name even more suspect. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 18:27, May 4, 2022 (EDT)