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Daisy's versions of moves straight up have different designs though. It's not like they just changed the color and be done with it. Plus, merging moves/items would get messy on search engines. If you type on Google for "Daisy Blossom" you don't get redirected to Daisy Blossom at all. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 07:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | Daisy's versions of moves straight up have different designs though. It's not like they just changed the color and be done with it. Plus, merging moves/items would get messy on search engines. If you type on Google for "Daisy Blossom" you don't get redirected to Daisy Blossom at all. --[[User:Memoryman3|Memoryman3]] ([[User talk:Memoryman3|talk]]) 07:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
==Proposal: Daisy's moves== | ==Proposal: Daisy's moves and other very similar technique related articles== | ||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|cancelled}} | |||
Currently, Daisy's moves, despite having different names and appearances and being used on a different character, are merged with Peach's articles with little relevant information on Daisy's variants. There is a precedent for entites which are almost identical in every way, such as several color swapped Mario Kart wheels, getting seperate articles solely based on their names and appearances and not gameplay changes. With this in mind, I propose seperating Daisy's moves into their own pages, and keeping the variants of the tires seperate, removing visual/gameplay information pertaining to the moves in games which the variants do not appear in, such as [[Super Smash Bros. Brawl]] and [[Mario Kart 7]], in order to keep the pages clean and information on the variant easy to find. | |||
Relevant articles include: [[Daisy Blossom]], [[Daisy Bomber]], [[Daisy Parasol]], [[Azure Roller]], [[Cyber Slick]], [[Hot Monster]], [[Retro Off-Road]]. If you support, they will stay seperate and new pages for Daisy Bomber, Daisy Blossom and Daisy Parasol will be created, and any other similar move will be treated in the same way if it has a different name. If you oppose, then all articles relating to these will be merged with their originals, due to a lack of differences. If you decide to do nothing, please explain with a good reason why Daisy's moves have less of a reason to be seperated than these identical stat wheels. | |||
Relevant articles include: [[Daisy Blossom]], [[Daisy Bomber]], [[Daisy Parasol]], [[Azure Roller]], [[Cyber Slick]], [[Hot Monster]], [[Retro Off-Road]] | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Memoryman3}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Memoryman3}}<br> | ||
'''Deadline''': November 3, 2019, 23:59 GMT | '''Deadline''': November 3, 2019, 23:59 GMT<br> | ||
'''Date withdrawn''': October 20, 2019, 15:46 GMT | |||
====Support==== | ====Support==== | ||
| Line 69: | Line 71: | ||
====Oppose==== | ====Oppose==== | ||
====Do nothing==== | |||
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} - The moves are not different in any way. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} No difference besides visuals, no reason to split. | |||
#{{User|Lord Grammaticus}} - Same "broad strokes" argument made, same counterargument given: Though not ''all'' of the Mario Kart tires affect kart stats, enough of them do so that it makes no sense to merge them ''solely'' based on stats anyway. Different types of subjects receive different coverage, and that standard is completely different from our coverage of Final Smashes. And based on how the Smash Bros. moves we ''do'' cover are handle, there is a lack of grounds for a split; if Daisy's is the only case on the Wiki, that's because it is currently the ''only'' one within our current scope. Other Echo Fighters/Final Smashes would receive the same treatment were they to fall within that scope; besides that, we have [[Doctor Finale]] as an example of a Final Smash that warrants a split, as it has actual functional differences that cannot be neatly summarized with the term "reskin". You have yet to provide evidence that there are any substantial differences ''not based in the visuals'' between Peach Blossom and Daisy Blossom, and thus your argument for splitting them is overall weak. Your claim of "end user friendliness" also remains similarly unfounded: the in-wiki search tool already leads "Daisy Blossom" to this page, and there's SmashWiki if a user wants a highly-detailed article on Final Smashes and other moves anyway. Not only does this read like a basic misunderstanding of how search engines work, there is no evidence presented, statistical or otherwise, that suggests this claim has any substance, much less any real benefit beyond the personal convenience of a select few - and as such it seems entirely subjective in nature and lacking in merit. And even with any evidence, we are in no way obligated to act ''solely'' in the interest of search result rankings, which seems to be the only real motivation behind this proposal, in any manner. '''EDIT:''' No, I do not support the merging of the other listed articles on this basis, nor do I oppose them - those are separate arguments to be made on the appropriate talk pages for those articles, and [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Talk:Peach_Blossom&curid=39445&diff=0&oldid=2786115 your obvious attempt to alter the conditions of this proposal to try and end around changes to affect unrelated pages], especially without altering the allotted options, is highly disingenuous to say the least. | |||
#{{User|CastleResearch}} - It's already properly covered in another wiki, no need to cover it here since the differences are only visual like other users have stated. This is not SmashWiki. | |||
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all. | |||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
''"If you type on Google for "Daisy Blossom" you don't get redirected to Daisy Blossom at all."'' Ya don't say, obviously you'd get results for the ''actual flower''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:08, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ''"If you type on Google for "Daisy Blossom" you don't get redirected to Daisy Blossom at all."'' Ya don't say, obviously you'd get results for the ''actual flower''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:08, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:Attempt to google "Daisy Blossom Smash". First result is the seperate Daisy Blossom page. Daisy Bomber and Daisy Parasol do not get such quality results because they are merged deep with Peach's moves. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 14:11, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Will you just give it up already? I've seen on your talk page and the Wiki proposal page that no-one agrees with you for valid reasons and because of that this proposal is clearly not going to pass. So frankly it's a bit pointless to keep trying. [[User:Mario Sakuraba|Mario Sakuraba]] ([[User talk:Mario Sakuraba|talk]]) 14:15, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:This strikes me as excessively rude and unwarranted; he was ''literally told a TPP would be better'' on the proposals page. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 14:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
The moves are not different in any way is also a highly flawed argument. I have already demonstrated that there ARE differences. Daisy Blossom doesn't spawn peaches or have images of Peach in the background with hearts scattered around. It is not present in Brawl. By that logic, none of the palette swapped tires or swapped kart bodies in Mario Kart have any differences, but alas, they do have differences, Just visual and naming ones. It's not apples and oranges, it is literally the exact same thing. I am starting to get a hinch that no one wants me to win the proposal because of who I am. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 14:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:I don't even ''know'' who you are o_O. Regardless, while it's not a ''palette'' swap, it's a ''texture'' swap, which is the modern 3D equivalent. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:33, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:The fact that you're thinking of this as a "win-or-lose" matter to begin with is an indicator among many that there's skewed priorities at play - wiki policy should '''not''' be used as a proxy for inane fandom wars, nor should it be used to right some supposed wrong on levels that (whether it has any acutal substance or not) we are not obligated to act on (e.g. we are not arbiters of character popularity). This is also said in complete ignorance of the fact established both here and on the comments regarding your proposal - regardless of your reputation, the arguments you've put forth for your changes are just badly made overall and highly lacking in consideration to established policy. And all this is deliberately setting aside the fact that this is still very much a reactionary-in-nature proposal - even then, the nature of how poorly constructed and presented it is ends up giving weight to arguments against it. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 14:47, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
As for Doctor Finale, the function is almost the same. The only functional difference is that it travels a bit slower and does more damage. That is literally it. The visual differences are more notable and leave a stronger presence. Can be neatly summarised in a single page. But I don't support merging that. The Daisy Blossom article I proposed isn't a stub either, it's larger than most move pages and has a lot of assets specific to Daisy. I'm frustrated that the arguments against this proposal have literally moved goalposts every single time, from not being different enough in general, to not having any gameplay differences, to not being different enough to warrant a spot under not being a different character or enemy, to not being different enough under invisible SMASH BROS guidelines which have not been established, because god forbid that Daisy's cloned moves (the bane of all Smash fans) be covered properly and fairly, which they aren't by the way, Peach's moves take up the vast majority of the page and the Daisy information is largely buried. There is absolutely nothing substantial in the wiki guidelines that prevent Daisy Blossom and Peach Blossom from being seperated, and I fail to see how splitting them up would inconvience anyone. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 14:59, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Of COURSE Peach's moves take up most of the majority of those pages, they're the original subjects that have been around since Melee. Daisy's moves aren't "buried", they're functionally identical moves with visual differences. Only a sentence or two at the most needs to be given to them. You need to stop attributing opposition to some sort of perceived bias, whether it's against Daisy, echo fighters in general, or yourself, and realize that maybe, just maybe, your argument is flawed and there are valid reasons to oppose it. Daisy is '''not''' being targetted. The only reason she's being treated differently than other fighters is because she's literally the only one of her kind in the context of Smash. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:04, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:You could say the exact same thing for the wheels in Mario Kart. Azure Roller and the other texture swapped tires can very easily be explained in one sentence on the Roller page. And the hard fact is that much more people are going to come to a move such as Daisy Bomber via search engines than the actual in-wiki search. Daisy's moves also have different names in different languages, and require media such as images to represent them. We already can explain that Daisy's moves function the same as Peach's moves in the first sentence in a seperated article without a problem. All the valid reasons that you gave me can be applied to several pages on the wiki, which is exactly why I believe Daisy is being targeted - clones in Smash Bros. games get negative reception from the fans a lot, even [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlof7gwzbzc popular influencers], and I think it's best if we just go by the game and classify them as seperate moves to avoid this.--{{user|Memoryman3}} 15:13, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::Going by the game they're not separate since Echo Fighters have the same number. Also no, it's more likely people will search for them in-wiki. And I'm not biased against Daisy either, ''I like Daisy''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:17, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::They are though? Echo Fighter just means that the character is heavily derived from another character in abilites and movesets. 13 and 13e are technically still different numbers, the Koopalings for example are skins and have the same number as Bowser Jr - 58. Even if you stack them in the settings, which is not the default, the game still counts Peach and Daisy seperate in records and in the random select, and are still unlocked seperately, much like the statstically identical wheels in Mario Kart. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 15:23, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::If you can say that a subject is exactly the same as something else in the first sentence, that's a good sign it doesn't need an article of its own. As for the tires, like I've said before their original equivalents were also in Mario Kart 7 and have different stats in each game, adding the Mario Kart 8-introduced variants to those pages could potentially be messy and awkward. Plus, we already split every other tire, so it's good for consistency. And no, we're not trying to hide information on Daisy's special moves from search engines because "we hate echo fighters", that's a ridiculous claim. As I've told you already, I like the concept of echo fighters and think they're a good thing for the game. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Almost the same =/= exactly the same - almost only counts in horseshoes. The point remains that Doctor Finale has some tangible differences ''that significantly impacts gameplay'', where Daisy Blossom does not. The visual differences may or may not be notable themselves and worth adding to the article, but they alone do not justify a ''split'' based on current policy and standards, which is what the proposal here is arguing for. As usual, you're arguing in circles back to the Mario Kart tires, which have enough of an impact on gameplay that they warranted splitting, and were each given their own article for consistency - it also helps, now I think of it, that the CPU opponents in those games also tend towards certain kart builds. | |||
:The reason cited was it "not being ''different enough''", with the lack of difference in terms of gameplay being evidence towards that - a far cry from moving the goal posts, since impact on gameplay and any changes thereof is the standard given for "''different enough''". The only reason our coverage on different characters or enemies was even mentioned is because you used some examples that you didn't believe warranted splitting but were split anyway to argue for the split of this article previously - and ''again'', the response to that was that those pages had substantial established differences by their standards, where this did not. '''And again''', yes, they are separate Final Smashes for separate characters, but we are not arguing that Daisy's move is literally named Peach Blossom or anything of the sort - we are arguing that '''the differences present are not distinct enough to warrant a split of this article.''' | |||
:That only ''seems'' like moving the goalposts because of your presumption that we apply the same exact standard broadly to everything we cover - you keep saying that our arguments against this can apply to anything else on the wiki, but five seconds' worth of casual glancing will show this is obviously not the case, to say nothing of the multiple older Talk Page Proposals people have cited here and elsewhere. Most wikis worth their salt cover characters in a different way from items and techniques, because ''different types of subjects require different coverage''. Anytime we have changed how we cover particular subjects, it has been in response to a question of policy and not because of blatantly invoked bandwagon fallacies like this one regarding the unpopularity of Daisy or clone characters - they have no impact on the construction of the article, and ''once again'' we are not obligated to right some Great And Unholy Wrong or otherwise act as arbiters of a character's popularity or lack thereof. Why should we sacrifice our integrity just for the sake of acting contrary to some """influencers""" who have no realistic impact on what we do? --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 15:27, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:None of the tires I covered have any gameplay differences from the original tires - and personally, I do not see why we should use seperate standards for classifying almost identical Smash Bros. moves used by different characters vs different Mario Kart wheels with almost the same designs and identical stats, since if you boil it down, it's essentially the same thing. I agree that Goombas and Goombos are not fair to compare as they are different characters altogether, but the texture swap wheels are not seperate characters which should be held to special standards, they are much closer to parts such as items and techniques, You can easily cover CPU preferences under a single page for both the original and color variant of the tire. The vast majority of wikis worth their salt treat the traits of [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CosmeticallyDifferentSides Cosmetically Different Sides] and [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SeparateButIdentical Seperate But Identical], as seperate. Daisy's moves and the Mario Kart wheels BOTH fit under these tropes, and in general, it is cleaner to just mention that they are functionally the same in the seperate article than to try and fit both into one. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 15:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:"''13 and 13e are technically still different numbers''" Epsilon ain't a number dude [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:30, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
::The original Japanese represents Daisy as 13', with the dash being a mathematical symbol for a number derived from another number. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 15:40, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
Regarding your attempt to alter the terms, you are ''not allowed'' to not have a "do nothing" option, as per the rules. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:03, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
The identical moves are used by different characters with different designs between them, but ''no difference'' in function. The Azure Roller and Roller have different basic designs between them, and like many of the other tires they have ''a difference'' in function via their impact on a kart's stats (and thus an impact on gameplay). Some of the tires share stats, yes, but this is not always the case between games - e.g. the other two tires that used to have the same stats as the Roller/Azure Roller in ''Mario Kart 7'' now have different stats in ''Mario Kart 8''. Therefore, they are split. | |||
The reason I mentioned other wikis at all was not to suggest a presence of any "special" standard or to suggest that we should take the same route as any other wiki - indeed, just because X Wiki does it A or B way should not be the reason we do or don't take a certain course of action. The point is to indicate that there will be an inevitable divergence in how each type of page is treated on a basic level (e.g. the style of character pages =/= the style of item pages, the style of item pages =/= the style of attack pages, and so on), and how that divergence develops varies with each wiki. Our character coverage, item coverage, and attack coverage are all different from each other for that basic reason, with our guidelines and policies guiding the particulars of those differences, developing them and in turn being developed accordingly. | |||
This is not to suggest a "we've always done it this way so it should stay that way" argument, either, asfar from it. The proposal process exists to discuss these changes and come to a consensus on what should and should not be enacted - a consensus that you are trying to undercut even now. The grievous dishonesty on display in your attempts to do so through all related discussions to this matter, including this latest attempt to ad hoc discussion of the Roller/Azure Roller and other similar cases into the current proposal, is absolutely bush league. It has been demonstrated multiple times that those are separate cases and should be treated as such, particularly in respect to what was established in the paragraph above this. | |||
Furthermore, it shows exactly how little thought you give to your own assertions that you rail about "influencers" and trying to undercut their supposed targeting, only to then try and not-so-subtly maneuver the discussion into a more favorable outcome so long as it suits you and your needs. The longer this discussion proceeds, the more reason I find to believe that the proposed changes will not provide the benefits they so tout, and the more I doubt that they will provide any real benefit at all. | |||
If you not only fail to provide a compelling argument for your position, but also react to dissent in such categorically deceptive manners and summarily treat even your own stance as though it is of such little account when the convenience arises, then why should we give it any consideration ourselves? --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 16:24, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
I have explained multiple times that there are ''no differences in function'' between the Roller and Azure Roller. Every single stat between the two tires are exactly the same in all the games they have appeared in. I don't support merging them at all, but I feel like it is a double standard. --{{user|Memoryman3}} 16:27, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:Then argue that on ''their'' pages and stop moving those goalposts over here. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 16:29, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:So naturally, you edited your proposal in bad faith to cover something completely out of scope to try to get users to "agree" to something that they never even voted for in the first place. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:35, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||
:[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Daisy_Blossom&curid=267482&diff=2786162&oldid=2786158 And then you tried to force through the changes anyway!] What an absolute joke. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 16:53, October 20, 2019 (EDT) | |||