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| == Merge to Toady == | | == Merge to Toady == |
| {{SettledTPP}} | | {{TPP}} |
| {{ProposalOutcome|passed|1-1-0-5-2-0|Merge to Toady and split Kamek's Toadies}}
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| So, during my Bubble Dayzee proposal, i saw LinkTheLefty mention it, so decided to make a proposal about this while i'm at it. The fact that both were merged together bothered me for a while, now. They should have either have been split, or merged to Toady altogether in the first place. I know about the feet thing, but that's neither an indication of them being the same or different subspecies at all. Or neither that they're separate from the normal Toadies. As i realised Doc von Schmeltwick was right about the fact that the large Raven in Yoshi's New Island was presumably a reference to/being Raphael the Raven himself, i think merging it could work. However, i'm kinda on the fence with Kamekku no Teshita, but that's a story for another day. Or is it?<br> | | So, during my Bubble Dayzee proposal, i saw LinkTheLefty mention it, so decided to make a proposal about this while i'm at it. The fact that both were merged together bothered me for a while, now. They should have either have been split, or merged to Toady altogether in the first place. I know about the feet thing, but that's neither an indication of them being the same or different subspecies at all. Or neither that they're separate from the normal Toadies. As i realised Doc von Schmeltwick was right about the fact that the large Raven in Yoshi's New Island was presumably a reference to/being Raphael the Raven himself, i think merging it could work. However, i'm kinda on the fence with Kamekku no Teshita, but that's a story for another day. Or is it?<br> |
| '''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br> | | '''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br> |
| '''Deadline:''' November 16, 2021, 23:59 GMT | | '''Deadline:''' November 15 2021, 23:59 GMT |
| ===Split Solo and Green Toady=== | | ===Split Solo and Green Toady=== |
| #{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per koopa | | #{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per koopa |
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| #{{user|Blinker}} Per all. | | #{{user|Blinker}} Per all. |
| #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per the sources presented and Doc's clarification in the comments. I will kindly request, though, that any rebuttals made in future discussions be more civil. | | #{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per the sources presented and Doc's clarification in the comments. I will kindly request, though, that any rebuttals made in future discussions be more civil. |
| #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second option, per all, mostly LinkTheLefty. Was at first on the fence with Kamek's Toadies, and thought i'll warrant another discussion, but i think it's fine adress them now.
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| ===Keep as is=== | | ===Keep as is=== |
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| :::::It's not just called "Kamek" in that page. It's ''Kamek no Teshita''. "Kamek's Toadies." Solo/Green Toadies are ''Kokamek'' ("Small Kamek,") which is what red Toadies are called in games outside of the ''Yoshi's Island'' series, like the ''Mario Party'' series. Meaning they are the same subject according to the games' respective original development teams. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:31, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | | :::::It's not just called "Kamek" in that page. It's ''Kamek no Teshita''. "Kamek's Toadies." Solo/Green Toadies are ''Kokamek'' ("Small Kamek,") which is what red Toadies are called in games outside of the ''Yoshi's Island'' series, like the ''Mario Party'' series. Meaning they are the same subject according to the games' respective original development teams. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:31, November 4, 2021 (EDT) |
| ::::::So there has been a consistent vision as to how generic Toadies are identified across games... That does change things up quite a bit, so I guess I'm moving my vote. Regardless, not sure why Google Translate found it appropriate to adapt the Japanese writing for "Kamek no Teshita" to "Kamek" on my end. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:04, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | | ::::::So there has been a consistent vision as to how generic Toadies are identified across games... That does change things up quite a bit, so I guess I'm moving my vote. Regardless, not sure why Google Translate found it appropriate to adapt the Japanese writing for "Kamek no Teshita" to "Kamek" on my end. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:04, November 4, 2021 (EDT) |
| :::::First of all, don't use indentations: there is only so much real estate that the comments can reasonably take up, and it's making it unreasonably harder than it has to be to follow along. Now, in regards to: "''Thought we decided not to put much stock into what that book says—why did the narrative suddenly take a turn?'' - excuse me, but what propels you to convince yourself there is some grand "narrative" against the book? No one has ever denied at any point that it is an officially licensed source - what people have been pointing out is that the SNES-era Nintendo Power guide makes far too many little distinctions that are outright contradicted by other officially licensed sources, sometimes even the GBA-era Nintendo Power guide and later the ''Yoshi's Island DS'' ones (English!), and the wiki as a whole no longer treats every single instance from that solitary source as splitting grounds. "''Regardless, “vigilante” is just a frivolous, amusing word I chose to frame their singularity as an enemy. I did not think the connotations of such word would seriously factor into my argument.''" Look, I would love to believe that if this really was "just a frivolous, amusing word," but the fact that this ''phrased out'' as "''vigilantes that strike you independent of any of Kamek's goons''" (direct quote)? Please refrain from backpedaling. "''I did give you an answer,''" no, you've modified it and given two. Let me explain. You said before that "Kamek's Toads are an assembly of generic, red-clad Toadies" - meaning that you ''do'' see Kamek's Toadies as an "assembly" (ie. notable, recurring group) and that other generic, ''red''-clad member debuted in the same game off-screen. Then later, you've said that Kamek's Toadies ''are'' flat-out the "base" species, when the ''red''-clad solo Toadies that appear in, say, the ''Mario Party'' series aren't always members of the same group. See what the problem is? That literally operates backwards from how the wiki organizes every other species/member subject relationship when it doesn't have to be, and it desperately confuses the identity of the subject of the article. "''The other, differently-coloured Toadies that appear in the Yoshi’s Island game are visibly disparate things derivative of the base entity.''" Again, the wiki ''never'' treated ''characters'' as the parent entity. By ''Yoshi's New Island'', the visual features have been erased so that the only difference is color. I'll reiterate: time and time again, the wiki historically does not split color variants without very strong reasoning. To touch on Solo/Green Toady - they act identically, with the only tangible difference being how they are encountered. Something like that is par for the course for traditionally merged color variants. "''Google Translate''" - I insist that you do ''not''. Apologies, but I seriously lack the time to be cleaning up junior mistranslations left lying around. The former is describing 「カメックの<span class="explain" title="てした">手下</span>」 (''Kamekku no Teshita'', Kamek's minions, ie. Kamek's Toadies) as the four that come to nab the baby when your stars run out, and the latter is describing 「コカメック」 (''Kokammekku'', Little Kamek/Magikoopa, ie. Solo/Green Toady or just plain Toady in other appearances) as the main enemy. Either way, the broom-riding, propeller-less Kamek/Magikoopa is a separate subject, considered a parent of sorts to the latter rather than the former. I'm very sorry about this, but at the moment, I have my books in storage, so these proposals come at a bad time for me. However, my distinct recollection is that every enemy is listed in each level, and the ones that this book treats as color variants are all under the same umbrella. As an example, [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P18.png|Koopa Troopa]] comes in green and red shells, yet they are only represented by one graphic and name. Therefore, the book treats Solo and Green Toadies as one and the same. Take my word for it or not, but I'm not the one looking at [[:File:CTY Shogakukan P13.jpg|this]] and trying to spin it around as anything other than what is ultimately labeled as a (parenthetical) color variant. <small>I'm sorry if by chance this got outdated in the time I typed this all out but I just got edit-conflicted and I'm in too much of a rush to read what happened, no hard feelings I just have other stuff going on.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:16, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::::I know very well what I said regarding that Toady assembly, and I sense you are too wound up in semantics to properly decipher my intention with those statements. My claim before Doc's above clarification was that the Toady quartet, in and of themselves, are a template, or a root "species", for the other Toady enemies found in the game. Calling them a "base species", while somewhat of a misnomer in the context of our wiki, was merely an attempt at evoking a group of enemies that overlapped 1:1 with the concept of Kamek's Toadies, but excluded Solo/Green Toadies. This claim of mine has since been proven unfounded once Doc essentially pointed out that Google Translate's interpretation of what I construed as base Toadies from that Japanese guide ("Kamek") was incorrect (being, in fact, explicitly "Kamek's Toadies"). Seeing as how I've been educated on this misinterpretation and that I duly changed my vote in consequence, I don't think there is a point in this discussion continuing further. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:46, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::::EDIT: "''{{'}}''Google Translate''{{'}} - I insist that you do ''not''. Apologies, but I seriously lack the time to be cleaning up '''junior mistranslations''' left lying around.''" That is just ''rich'' of you to comment, considering you, as someone who reputably knows Japanese, made no effort to explain these sources but rather left me to my own devices to research the names and bios presented therein. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:02, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::::Cut him some slack, he's in the middle of moving and as such lacks much time and doesn't have his guides handy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:43, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I understand it's difficult to keep oneself composed at such junctures, and I wish him good omen in accommodating to the new place. My gripe is that I found that particular choice of words insensitive, which is unwarranted regardless of what may occur to one's life in parallel. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:53, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::::::I said before that I didn't have a lot of time to proofread my earlier comments. It frankly slipped my mind since I've had those scans on the wiki for quite a while and thought I had openly established their use. I wasn't expecting others to try to re-decipher them, so when you subsequently came back with something else, I misconstrued what you were trying to do. I abhor misinformation, and sure, I'm aware that these things are small, but my attitude is that small things in all forms can snowball. You could've simply stopped and asked if you weren't sure of what I was presenting. Still, I was being thoughtless. I don't know if this will make up for the undue stress, but let me give you a pointer. Gogol Translate is sometimes okay for real-world Japanese words now and then if you lack a good dictionary, but it usually tends to break characters and syntax, and most other times it's just plain wrong. In my experience, it's much more trouble than it's worth to use, and made-up names and sentences are more often than not rendered unreliably. It's basically a beginner's trap; people have literally written books on it for humor (which supposedly helps improve it over time, but that seems miniscule at best). If you need to use a machine translator, my recommendation is the newer DeepL machine translator that I found out about recently. It's not perfect either - you should never fully trust a machine to translate for you since the tech isn't there yet - but I find that its Japanese language support is way more mature, and it made my life a little easier a handful of times already. Anyway, I think the other part about letting things go is the note to end things on. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:26, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::::::Good mates, this is a children's character. No need to get so petty, heated and childish about what is ultimately the decision to merge or keep split a fan page of a singular character from children's games. It does not matter in the slightest, nor is it remotely important, so I would advise you to calm down and reexamine why you reacted in such a manner. If you mates continue to have attitudes so intense over something so petty, then take them somewheres else. You are going closer and closer to violating courtesy. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:00, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| This is, of course, not a specific advisory. In general, all users here should understand the relative unimportance of what we do here. Relax, calm down, do not bring unnecessary intensity. Such intensity and anger not only damper the site but risk violating courtesy. Just watch what you say before you post it. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:20, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::::::::While I can’t speak for LinkTheLefty, I must express that I take umbrage at your statement. I disagree that our discussion has been “childish” or “petty”; unless you take the somewhat sarcastic usage of “Mario Wiki intelligentsia” to be some kind of childish retort (the phrase being moreso derived out genuine awareness of my discussion partners’ aptitutes and intended to point out what I previously mistook as an otherwise small lapse in their judgement), you will be hard-pressed to find any directed oaths in my discourse. In fact, I advocated for civil discourse through and through. Your attempt to belittle the scope of our discussion as “not even remotely important” also feels demeaning and runs counter to the wiki’s inherent mission. (NOTE: This was written before you wrote the addendum, which I agree with in general terms.) {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:33, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::::::::I've notified Doomhiker to be less abrasive and to keep it professional when addressing this dispute on the Discord staff channel but yeah, please don't continue the dispute (you may continue with the debate of your stance of course, for clarification). We'll step in again if it is necessary to do so, such as if we continue to see sarcastic remarks and ad hominems being directed at each other. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:29, November 4, 2021 (EDT)
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