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== Merge with [[Black Shy Guy]] ==
== Merge with [[Black Shy Guy]] ==
{{SettledTPP}}
 
{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|8-9}}
{{TPP}}
 
These are pretty clearly the same thing, particularly since Black Shy Guy has effectively the exact same role as "Anti Guy" here in ''Color Splash'' and ''The Origami King'', to say nothing of how the former game's even uses the same name/spelling in the language of origin as this. This is just an outdated early localization, with the only "difference" being that the mask is kinda dark. This is the second part of my step-by-step revising of the Black Shy Guy page.
These are pretty clearly the same thing, particularly since Black Shy Guy has effectively the exact same role as "Anti Guy" here in ''Color Splash'' and ''The Origami King'', to say nothing of how the former game's even uses the same name/spelling in the language of origin as this. This is just an outdated early localization, with the only "difference" being that the mask is kinda dark. This is the second part of my step-by-step revising of the Black Shy Guy page.


'''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
'''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
'''Deadline:''' <s>May 3, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to May 10, 2021, 23:59 GMT Extended to May 17, 2021, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 24, 2021, 23:59 GMT
'''Deadline:''' <s>May 3, 2020, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May 10, 2020, 23:59 GMT


===Support===
===Support===
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#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} The "language of origin" is unneglected on this wiki. I know it took a while after ''Super Mario Maker'' released for Parabuzzy to finally merge with Para-Beetle, but that exception was already contested several times before and reached a burnout phase. Fuzzy of all things has a wilder behavioral variation within the ''Paper Mario'' series. If we don't split these currently, then I don't see why this must.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} The "language of origin" is unneglected on this wiki. I know it took a while after ''Super Mario Maker'' released for Parabuzzy to finally merge with Para-Beetle, but that exception was already contested several times before and reached a burnout phase. Fuzzy of all things has a wilder behavioral variation within the ''Paper Mario'' series. If we don't split these currently, then I don't see why this must.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Two more pieces of evidence: keep in mind the rhyme scheme of [[Shy Guy's Toy Box]] enemies: [[Spy Guy]], [[Sky Guy]], [[Medi Guy]], [[Pyro Guy]]... They could've just done "Anti Guy" for the theme naming. Also, just like ''CS'' and ''TOK'', Anti Guys are a species rather than an individual character, with four appearing in the game.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} Two more pieces of evidence: keep in mind the rhyme scheme of [[Shy Guy's Toy Box]] enemies: [[Spy Guy]], [[Sky Guy]], [[Medi Guy]], [[Pyro Guy]]... They could've just done "Anti Guy" for the theme naming. Also, just like ''CS'' and ''TOK'', Anti Guys are a species rather than an individual character, with four appearing in the game.
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} After some personal thinking, along with looking at certain other articles such as [[Goomboss]] and [[Galoomba]], I probably didn't think out my original vote reasoning well enough.
#{{User|ChompworksEngineer}} Opposed at first, but then read the proposal again and saw that the exact same roles of them are in CS and TOK just named Black Shy Guy.
#{{User|ChompworksEngineer}} Opposed at first, but then read the proposal again and saw that the exact same roles of them are in CS and TOK just named Black Shy Guy.
#{{user|Casual Koopa}} - Per proposal.
<del>#{{User|Keyblade Master}} After some personal thinking, along with looking at certain other articles such as [[Goomboss]] and [[Galoomba]], I probably didn't think out my original vote reasoning well enough.</del>
===Oppose===
===Oppose===
#{{user|Keyblade Master}} Merging subjects based on the "language of origin" is one thing that just doesn't do it for me. Their role isn't the exact same; in Paper Mario the Anti Guy is an optional enemy and they attack like Shy Guys except their attacks are as powerful as getting hit by a lorry, while in Color Splash and Origami King the Black Shy Guys are mandatory to be fought, and behave differently from the Anti Guy; the ones in Color Splash has the ability to dodge attacks like a Ninji, and the ones in Origami King attack with their biggest paper fans. I know it's still not the same behaviour in the latter two games, but this is just my reasoning.
<del>#{{user|Keyblade Master}} Merging subjects based on the "language of origin" is one thing that just doesn't do it for me. Their role isn't the exact same; in Paper Mario the Anti Guy is an optional enemy and they attack like Shy Guys except their attacks are as powerful as getting hit by a lorry, while in Color Splash and Origami King the Black Shy Guys are mandatory to be fought, and behave differently from the Anti Guy; the ones in Color Splash has the ability to dodge attacks like a Ninji, and the ones in Origami King attack with their biggest paper fans. I know it's still not the same behaviour in the latter two games, but this is just my reasoning.</del>
#{{user|Somethingone}} Per Keyblade.
#{{user|Somethingone}} Per Keyblade.
#{{User|Alex95}} - Keeping this as it is helps it stand out with the rest of the ''Paper Mario'' Shy Guys. Doesn't matter what "Creator's intent" or "Localizer's intent" is on a grand basis (which is something you probably won't even know anyway unless you were in the room with them during the decision), the guy's name is "Anti Guy" and he behaves differently (and is much more notable from) the other Black Shy Guys in the series, so that is what we report on.
#{{User|Alex95}} - Keeping this as it is helps it stand out with the rest of the ''Paper Mario'' Shy Guys. Doesn't matter what "Creator's intent" or "Localizer's intent" is on a grand basis (which is something you probably won't even know anyway unless you were in the room with them during the decision), the guy's name is "Anti Guy" and he behaves differently (and is much more notable from) the other Black Shy Guys in the series, so that is what we report on.
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#{{User|Hewer}} I feel like this would be the least confusing to our readers.
#{{User|Hewer}} I feel like this would be the least confusing to our readers.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Keyblade Master and Alex95.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Keyblade Master and Alex95.
#{{User|Stooben Rooben}} - Per Alex95. I feel the game establishes clearly on a few occasions that these are not to be considered the same as other, more run-of-the-mill Shy Guys.
===Comments===
===Comments===
@Keyblade Master Considering the same creative team (Intelligent Systems) seems to consider them the same thing (and Anti Guy's JP name is ''literally'' just "Black Heyho"), it seems rather clear-cut to me. "Creator's intent" will always trump an inconsistent "localizer's intent." Regardless, adding ''additional'' behaviors in a game 16 or so years later hardly makes them a different thing, especially when at the core they're still just a more difficult variation of a basic enemy (which ''also'' had different behavior in all three games. Of course the derivative's going to have different behavior if the base does). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:58, April 19, 2021 (EDT)
@Keyblade Master Considering the same creative team (Intelligent Systems) seems to consider them the same thing (and Anti Guy's JP name is ''literally'' just "Black Heyho"), it seems rather clear-cut to me. "Creator's intent" will always trump an inconsistent "localizer's intent." Regardless, adding ''additional'' behaviors in a game 16 or so years later hardly makes them a different thing, especially when at the core they're still just a more difficult variation of a basic enemy (which ''also'' had different behavior in all three games. Of course the derivative's going to have different behavior if the base does). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:58, April 19, 2021 (EDT)
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:::I just want to point out a logical error with leaving Anti Guy as-is: as mentioned in the proposal, this is Doc's second step in revising the Black Shy Guy page; the first step is handling ''Yoshi's Story'' information (I will recheck guides later before redeciding my stance on it). Now, Anti Guy is considered a variant of Black Shy Guy. However, if the first step succeeds either way but the second step fails, wouldn't Black Shy Guy have technically debuted ''after'' its variant? If that alone isn't "confusing to readers," I don't know what to tell you. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:58, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
:::I just want to point out a logical error with leaving Anti Guy as-is: as mentioned in the proposal, this is Doc's second step in revising the Black Shy Guy page; the first step is handling ''Yoshi's Story'' information (I will recheck guides later before redeciding my stance on it). Now, Anti Guy is considered a variant of Black Shy Guy. However, if the first step succeeds either way but the second step fails, wouldn't Black Shy Guy have technically debuted ''after'' its variant? If that alone isn't "confusing to readers," I don't know what to tell you. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 16:58, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
::::That's more of an argument that this proposal should have waited until the ''YS'' one was over than it is an argument for merging Anti Guy. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:53, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
::::That's more of an argument that this proposal should have waited until the ''YS'' one was over than it is an argument for merging Anti Guy. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:53, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
:::::Well, the split in question has happened now. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:26, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
@Scrooge200: While your second statement is a legitimate point (I even mentioned it in a previous comment), that first bit is ''not'' evidence, it's blatant grasping at straws. Your claim that the Shy Guy's names rhyme isn't even true; it blatantly ignores that "pyro" has a second syllable and assumes that "Medi Guy" is pronounced with a hard "I" when "medic", the word it's clearly derived from, is pronounced with a soft "i". And where do Groove Guy, Stilt Guy, and General Guy fit in this theme naming that only exists in your imagination? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:21, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
@Scrooge200: While your second statement is a legitimate point (I even mentioned it in a previous comment), that first bit is ''not'' evidence, it's blatant grasping at straws. Your claim that the Shy Guy's names rhyme isn't even true; it blatantly ignores that "pyro" has a second syllable and assumes that "Medi Guy" is pronounced with a hard "I" when "medic", the word it's clearly derived from, is pronounced with a soft "i". And where do Groove Guy, Stilt Guy, and General Guy fit in this theme naming that only exists in your imagination? {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:21, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
:Still, it applies to at least half of the enemies here; also ''Py''ro Guy and Med''i'' Guy if you're willing to stretch it a bit, because there aren't other fitting descriptions for them that rhyme with "guy." I still feel Anti Guy is just a translation invention, especially considering that him, the ''CS'' Black Shy Guys, and the ''TOK'' Black Shy Guys have completely different manners of speaking. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 18:32, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
:Still, it applies to at least half of the enemies here; also ''Py''ro Guy and Med''i'' Guy if you're willing to stretch it a bit, because there aren't other fitting descriptions for them that rhyme with "guy." I still feel Anti Guy is just a translation invention, especially considering that him, the ''CS'' Black Shy Guys, and the ''TOK'' Black Shy Guys have completely different manners of speaking. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 18:32, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
::I'm ''not'' willing to stretch it a bit. If you have to "stretch it", it's probably not good evidence. Counting General Guy and Big Lantern Ghost (but not Kammy's summoned chest guardians), only 4 out of 12 enemies (including the regular Shy Guys) in SGTT fit this alleged rhyme scheme. "Sky Guy" and "Spy Guy" were likely chosen to sound similar to "Shy Guy", but that doesn't mean there's a theme. You already have much better points, so I don't know why you're trying to sell this Swiss cheese "rhyming" argument as evidence. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:51, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
::I'm ''not'' willing to stretch it a bit. If you have to "stretch it", it's probably not good evidence. Counting General Guy and Big Lantern Ghost (but not Kammy's summoned chest guardians), only 4 out of 12 enemies (including the regular Shy Guys) in SGTT fit this alleged rhyme scheme. "Sky Guy" and "Spy Guy" were likely chosen to sound similar to "Shy Guy", but that doesn't mean there's a theme. You already have much better points, so I don't know why you're trying to sell this Swiss cheese "rhyming" argument as evidence. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 18:51, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
@Stooben And you're saying the CS and TOK ones are? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:57, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
:''Color Splash'' and ''The Origami King'' seem to establish their use of Black Shy Guys to be just enemies (barring an exception in [[Violet Passage]] where one is a mini-boss, but the same type of Shy Guy is then again encountered later in [[Fort Cobalt]] as just a generic enemy). ''Paper Mario'' establishes Anti Guy(s) to be a more fearsome foe that are ''only'' included in the game as optional bosses. The boss battles cannot be fled from, and Goombario's tattle goes as far as to let the player know "hey this guy is so tough that it's earned the moniker ''Deadly Guy''", which I feel further exemplifies their difference from a Black Shy Guy. If Anti-Guys would have appeared as a generic enemy , I would probably feel differently. {{User:Stooben Rooben/sig}} 19:25, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
::Same can be said about Hammer Bro in SMRPG. Basing splits across role differences between games is flimsy at best. (Also, their PM battle music is the "tough normal enemy battle" theme used in certain encounters with, say, Putrid Piranhas and Magikoopas rather than a "boss" I'd say). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:32, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
:::Duly noted about the music. Are there generic enemies (like Magikoopa and Putrid Piranha) that appear only in a setting where the player cannot flee from battle, though? It's been a minute since I last played ''Paper Mario'' and can't recall. Also, since you bring up Hammer Bro, what is your opinion on [[Hammer Bro (Mario & Luigi: Partners in Time)|this article]] that is split based on their role difference in that game? {{User:Stooben Rooben/sig}} 20:55, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
::::I personally see that Hammer Bro thing as merely an artifact from when that article was "L33T H4MM3R BR0Z" and that it could be merged now probably seeing as they are the sole representatives of that game. As for other enemies like that, I believe most alternate Magikoopa colors are only found in such scenarios, even the red, green, and white ones which appear as (slightly altered) generic enemies in TTYD. Maybe Duplighosts too, but I could be wrong on that one. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:04, May 17, 2021 (EDT)
:::::I don't agree with your point about the battle music - it may be used for choice encounters with Magikooopas and Duplighosts and stuff like that, but it is also used for nearly all non-chapter bosses, including [[Kent C. Koopa]], who is one of the most powerful bosses in the game. That's more comparable to ''Mario & Luigi: Dream Team'' using its boss theme during a fight with a [[Fly Guy R]] trio just because they stole some bedsheets. I ''would'' support merging the ''PiT'' Hammer Bros. though. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 16:06, May 18, 2021 (EDT)
::::::Ah, sorry, must have misattributed a TTYD theme to that role, my mistake. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:20, May 18, 2021 (EDT)
:::::::If you look on the talk page for those Hammer Bros, there is a proposal about merging them with the main Hammer Bro page, which had a lot of opposition. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 17:13, May 18, 2021 (EDT)
::::::::I am aware, though from what I can tell the general consensus on how to handle that sort of thing has changed drastically since. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:29, May 18, 2021 (EDT)
::::::::That proposal is from 2011. Back then, the article was still called "L33T HAMM3R BROZ." and people could propose to split levels from worlds and have them ''fail''. A decade-old proposal from Super Mario Wiki's early years is hardly a good case against making a new one. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 17:45, May 18, 2021 (EDT)
Sorry, but I'm going back to opposing with my original reasoning. I should explain though, the reason I agreed to merge the Hammer Bros. from Partners in Time is because they are clearly intended to be the same as any other Hammer Bros. in both design and behaviour. This though, I still think it's possible that the Black Shy Guys in Color Splash and Origami King were not properly intended to be lumped with the Anti Guys, and while the games may be done differently, behaviour is still a factor here. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 10:24, May 24, 2021 (EDT)
:Following this logic you are by extension, as the article is currently written and your own logic in saying this, stating that the ''Color Splash'' entity was inspired and "clearly intended to be" a ''Superstars Baseball'' recolor. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:30, May 24, 2021 (EDT)
::You seriously don't need to keep raising your tone like this whenever somebody disagrees with you. I can tell you're not taking the opposition very lightly. I'll admit that I'm not very good at keeping up an argument, which is why I try not to get into one as much as possible, but to be honest there's not much point in doing so here because of how differently we view this sort of thing. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 16:46, May 24, 2021 (EDT)
:::Where are you getting this "raised tone" idea? I am calmly pointing out the flaws of your argument in a matter-of-fact way. And the question still stands, why treat this as more different from the ''Color Splash'' enemy than the functionally identical-to-normal Shy Guy recolor or the giant-sized opponent in ''Tennis Aces'' (the latter of which seems to not be specifically named by the respective game at all) are treated relative to the ''Color Splash'' enemy? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, May 24, 2021 (EDT)
== Merge with [[Black Shy Guy]]: Round 2 ==
{{settledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-3|Merge with [[Black Shy Guy]]}}
While this enemy does indeed have a unique name, it's only a translation thing and every other Paper Mario game with Black Shy Guys in them have them play basically the same role of "strong Shy Guy."
This is not a unique variation, it's a singular-game mistranslation. Only visual difference in the entire thing is a slightly darker mask than usual.
'''Proposer''' {{User|Biggestman}}<br>
'''Deadline''' January 2, 2024, 23:59 GMT
===Fight (Support)===
#{{User|Biggestman}} Per Proposal
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - [https://youtu.be/NOG2lgqa-mE?t=604 I am not confident in my love?♡] (per)
#{{User|Hewer}} My oppose reasoning two and a half years ago was very flimsy and I've since changed my mind. Per this proposal and the previous one.
#{{User|Blinker}} I wouldn't call it a mistranslation, but having these split just because of the games' translators made different choices still ends up feeling kinda arbitrary.
#{{User|Pseudo}} This is a pretty arbitrary split that definitely wouldn’t have happened had Anti Guy been translated the same as other black Shy Guys.
#{{User|Tails777}} I opposed before, but I've become more accepting to the idea that Black Shy Guys are consistently stronger in ''Paper Mario'' titles and thus making more sense to cover it all in one article.
#{{User|Somethingone}} I've changed my stance since two years ago, per all the arguments stated here.
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Merge.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} For parity with other mistranslations/alternate translations like Parabuzzies and the Chestnut King.
===Don't Fight (Oppose)===
#{{User|Mario}}  This proposal has not brought up any new points to address the previous ones that have stymied it. After reading the comments section, I am not convinced this is a "translation error" either (and why the insistence it is? 🤨) nor do the roles Black Guy Shys play in Color Splash is a strong enough allusion to the original game to make me believe they should be merged. This is the kind of case where I lean to "when in doubt, keep split". Yes, if this was called "Black Shy Guy" it would've been merged. But it's not. Merging this with like Black Shy Guy and having the Yoshi's Island Black Shy split is going to be a bit... curious I think.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per [LeftyGreen/Bazooka] Mario.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} (pa)per Mario.
===Lemon Candy (Comments)===
This may be a little off topic, but I think the Black Shy Guy article needs to be cleaned up a bit. I can agree if the article is used to cover the consistent idea of a "stronger than average Shy Guy", mostly the ''Paper Mario series'' portrayals,  but stuff regarding the times where Black Shy Guy has merely been a color swap (''Mario Baseball'', ''Mario Kart'', etc) should probably be moved to the species article to be more consistent with Yoshis and Toads. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
:That's part 3. Part 1 was splitting the ''Yoshi's Story'' ones, part 2 is merging this, and part 3 is cleaning up the result. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:27, December 19, 2023 (EST)
@Mario: Technically speaking, it is called Black Shy Guy in Japan. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 09:03, December 20, 2023 (EST)
:Speaking of its Japanese name, I think it's worth pointing out that this is the only Shy Guy color (aside from pink, for some reason, maybe they didn't have a convenient word to use?) to use an English word instead of a Japanese one. You have "Aka Hey-Ho", "Midori Hey-Ho", "Ao Hey-Ho", but then this one is "Black Hey-Ho". They could have easily have called it "Kuro Hey-Ho", but didn't, which implies them using the same name as in Paper Mario was intentional. And hey, three different games have a black Shy Guy that's stronger than a normal Shy Guy, in the same series. So what if the translator's made different choices between the different games? The difference in translation isn't a mistake, but it also doesn't necessarily mean anything. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 19:03, December 20, 2023 (EST)
@Mario: The first three games had pretty shaky translations (e.g. Bubus instead of Lil' Oinks, Moon Clefts in SPM) but I agree that it's not really a translation error. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 11:18, December 21, 2023 (EST)

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