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| ==Real World Subjects vs. Real World Terms== | | ===Completely do away with console abbreviations in titles for ''Mario Kart'' course articles=== |
| A recurring trend on this wiki is to create articles on real-world terms, such as [[Genre]], [[Level]], and [[Pre-release and unused content]]. I know we've said something like this in [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive 27#Reality vs. Fiction|the first proposal aimed at reducing ''generic'' subjects]], but allowing these articles as precedents would lead to further unnecessary articles, such as {{fake link|Episode}}, {{fake link|Map}}, {{fake link|Cutscene}}...the list goes on. {{wp|Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary|Keep in mind that wikis are not dictionaries}}, and we don't necessarily ''need'' articles on those subjects, same as the generic subjects. Therefore, in a similar vein to the generic subjects proposal I linked to, I propose that we allow articles on real-world terms '''only if they have a function or purpose that makes them unique and discernible from the way the term is applied elsewhere'''.
| | Policy right now dictates that console abbreviations be used for every single title in ''Mario Kart'' course articles that have made at least one "classic" appearence. While I fully understand the logic behind said policy, I don't see how this would work in the long term. In fact, I would even say that it's '''counterintuitive''' to MarioWiki's goals, and here's why: |
| | | #'''It looks ugly and hurts our professionalism.''' Just think about it for a bit. Those console abbreviations are just Nintendo's way of disambiguating which game each course originates from, and "the game company itself does it" is not a valid enough reason for us to bend backwards in this way. |
| The following are examples of real-world terms that would be '''allowed''':
| | #'''It's blatantly inconsistent.''' Barring the supposed "logic" used, how come none of the other pre-''Mario Kart 8'' courses have console abbreviations in their titles? I'd half expect, say, the ''[[Mario Kart DS]]'' variant of Rainbow Road to be titled under "DS Rainbow Road". |
| *[[Cheat code]] – The cheat codes and their effects vary per game; ''[[New Super Mario Bros.]]''{{'}}s is a simple button hold that allows [[Luigi]] as a playable character, whereas ''[[Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble!]]''{{'}}s has a cheats section where the player can enter five-letter code words to drastically change the gameplay (for example, typing "COLOR" in the SNES version gives Dixie and Kiddy a palette swap).
| | #'''It hurts navigation.''' Let's say a random reader familiar only with ''[[Mario Kart Wii]]'' wanted to search for [[Maple Treeway]] and started with "maple". There are plenty of articles whose names start with "Maple", but Maple Treeway is nowhere to be found due to the system rarely prioritizing redirects. No, the reader would have to type out almost the full title to get the actual redirect. I even tried searching a few other titles from, but they're all shoved at the bottom of the search below articles on subjects that are far less well known. And keep in mind, Maple Treeway isn't the only title with this kind of problem. |
| *[[Game Over]] – The Game Over screens are entirely unique for each game, and Game Overs aren't just achievable by "losing". ''[[Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door]]'', for example, has a Game Over that occurs by making the mistake of reading [[Ghost T.]]'s [[Ragged Diary|diary]].
| | #'''Not even the Nintendo developers themselves use the system properly.''' I mean, just look at the [[Mario Kart 8 Deluxe – Booster Course Pass|Booster Course Pass]] and how they handle [[Ninja Hideaway]] and [[Sky-High Sundae]]. You'd expect them to be known as "Tour Ninja Hideaway" and "Tour Sky-High Sundae", but nothing even remotely resembling that is used. |
| *[[Easter egg]] – Same as cheat code.
| | All in all, I firmly believe that this part of the policy is a detriment to the wiki long-term, and call for its immediate repeal. Keep in mind that this will '''NOT''' affect console abbreviations as they are used within articles, just within article titles. |
| *[[Fourth wall]] – Fourth wall breaks occur very often in the ''Mario'' universe, such as how in ''[[Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam]]'', [[Starlow]] references the [[Year of Luigi]] when [[Luigi]] is otherwise alone in west [[Gloomy Woods]] thanks to [[King Boo]] (''"You had, like, a whole YEAR named after you!"''), or how in ''[[Paper Mario: Color Splash]]'', [[Huey]] makes a remark when he sees the final memory revealing that [[Bowser]] had accidentally created his [[black paint]] [[Black Bowser|alter-ego]], ''""You're telling me we could have avoided this entire game if we just installed a "Don't Mix the Paint" sign?!"''.
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| *[[Unrevisitable locations]] – Same as fourth wall.
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| The following are examples of real-world terms that would be '''forbidden''':
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| *[[Glitch]] – They are recurring, but they don't differentiate enough in concept from glitches in other franchises.
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| *[[Level]] – There's nothing different about the concept of levels in the ''Mario'' franchise.
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| *[[Genre]] – Genres in the ''Mario'' franchise are no different from genres elsewhere.
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| *[[World]] – Same as above.
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| *[[Minigame]] – Same as above.
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| Whatever happens to the targeted pages in the aftermath (i.e. merging into the [[MarioWiki:Glossary|glossary]] or converting into a list) has no bearing on this proposal.
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| ==Split Frog and cut down on its genericness, take 2==
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| Yes, I see the proposal directly above this one, but both the proposal and the opposition itself was flawed compared to what I'm about to propose. Essentially, what I'm proposing is that we split the Frog article by game (except the ''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]'' info; that can be covered in the [[Drumstick (character)]] article), as we already do the same for [[Beetle]] and [[Mole]]. Let me break it down for you:
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| *'''''[[Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars]]''''': These frogs are clearly sapient, and don't behave as the other non-generic frogs do. You can also actually interact with them.
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| *'''''[[Diddy Kong Racing]]''''': These frogs serve little purpose other than one that turns out to be a cursed [[Drumstick (character)|Drumstick]], so I think we should just delete this section as being too generic.
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| *'''''[[Yoshi's Story]]''''': These frogs are actual enemies that attack the targeted Yoshi.
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| *'''''[[Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon]]''''': Unlike ''Yoshi's Story''{{'}}s frogs, these frogs are red and yellow in color, and can be defeated with the [[Strobulb]].
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| *'''''[[Super Mario Odyssey]]''''': The most generic of the many types of frogs, these ones are more well known for their [[capture]] abilities than anything else (they're neither characters you can interact with nor are they truly enemies).
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| Unlike the [[Banana]] case, I don't see how these splits would be too complicated nor open up a can of worms. Each of the four non-generic Frog appearances look noticeably different from each other, and I think a split is warranted here.
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| '''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br> | |
| '''Deadline:''' TBA 2018, 23:59 GMT | |
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| ===Support===
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| ===Oppose===
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| ===Comments===
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| ==Identifier discussion (mostly for characters)==
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| Yes, I know I've discussed related cases with you countless times before, but this isn't necessarily the same case. This time I'm talking about a more problematic case - one that doesn't seem to be bound by [[MarioWiki:Naming#Determining the identifier|policy]] despite some admins saying it is.
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| Recently, some admins have been moving character pages with identifiers to the name of the species they identify as (such as [[Jerry (Bob-omb)]]). While that sounds perfectly normal at first glance, the problem is actually more straightforward than you'd probably think it is: Where does it stop? The example I provided is just one of many examples of this trend...not bound by policy!
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| If you want my thoughts, I think it's not necessarily a good idea. I could go on and on about why I think that, but I think the problem is that not every character is of a species defined by ''Mario'' standards, which makes the cases wildly inconsistent with each other. To back up a bit, in some cases, that kind of identifier works fine, such as the aforementioned [[Jerry]] case; one is unambiguously a Bob-omb, while the other is unambiguously a Magikoopa. In other cases, the cracks begin to show, such as the [[Boomer]] case; one is clearly a Pixl, another is clearly a member of the Brothers Bear (though it has the generic "(bear)" identifier that's likely to cause problems), and another is a boss and therefore has a "(boss)" identifier (though should it have that identifier? Surely he has a bigger role than just a boss...). In yet other cases, that kind of identifier wouldn't seem to work at all, such as the [[Herman]] case; one is clearly a human, but the other appears to be a carnivorous plant of some kind (would it be "plant" or "carnivorous plant"? Even if you were to make a decree about this, I'm not sure if all of the users would agree with it, let alone me.).
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| Here are a few more examples:
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| *'''[[Gary]]'''
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| **''Mario Tennis: Power Tour'' ({{fake link|Gary (human)}}) – I feel rather uneasy about the "human" identifier, and though it's not a bad identifier, it looks kind of silly. That's probably just me, though...
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| **''Super Paper Mario'' ({{fake link|Gary (Goomba)}}) – I think that in a double-disambiguation scenario, if one page gets the more specific type identifier, the other should too.
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| *'''[[Lily]]'''
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| **''Paper Mario'' ({{fake link|Lily (flower)}}) – ····· How would that help anyone? As it is, no one would even guess at first glance that the article is about a character and not a generic water lily.
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| **''Super Paper Mario'' ({{fake link|Lily (Flip-Flop Folk)}}) – "Flip-Flop Folk" isn't even an official name, so I don't think new readers would immediately understand the identifier.
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| *'''[[Sonny]]'''
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| **''Saturday Supercade'' ({{fake link|Sonny (ape? gorilla?)}}) – Even if the matter was settled via discussion or proposal, the reality is that the show treats "ape" and "gorilla" interchangeably, with neither term taking priority over the other.
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| **''Mario Golf'' ({{fake link|Sonny (human)}}) – Same as both entries for Gary.
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