Talk:Boom Boom (species)
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I'm not going to argue for or against having an article on Boom Boom's species, but I'm going to disagree about including Pom Pom as a member of Boom Boom's species...I think there's several things wrong with that, for instance: 1) Of any sources that indicate Boom Boom is an enemy species, there is also indication of multiple Pom Poms, implying they would be rather exclusive from each other (think Birdo/Yoshi), 2) In addition, absolutely nowhere official does it say Pom Pom(s) is/are a member of Boom Boom's species (just like there's nothing saying the Boom Boom(s) is/are a member of Pom Pom's species - if anything they're all just a rare breed of overgrown Koopas like Bowser and his "kids"), and 3) This just reinforces the Smurfette Principle without a solid reason. LinkTheLefty (talk) 12:11, 27 September 2013 (EDT)
- Except Birdos and Yoshis look completely different (and originated separately), whereas Boom Boom and Pom Pom are physically the same barring the hair and slightly different shell features (although how Boom Boom shells are depicted changes all the time). The lower half of the shell covers the entire body with the limbs coming out of holes, like regular Koopas, and quite unlike Bowser and the Koopalings, who have regular scaled flesh separating the belly scutes from the carapace. It'd be far more speculative to lump them all into one species (and any ambiguous talk of "breeds" should be avoided like the plague), whereas calling Pom Pom a Boom Boom isn't unreasonable: if we needed Nintendo to spit out every last detail before we can do anything, the comprehensibility of the wiki would suffer greatly. And as discussed on Pom Pom's article (with all the references necessary to back up the wiki's assertions), while some sources do say there's multiple Pom Poms, others say there's only one Pom Pom character, with the original Japanese explicitly saying she's the "Koopa Army's lone female" 「クッパ軍の紅一点。」, so blame Nintendo for the Smurfette Principle (continuing the tradition they started back in 1988 with Wendy). - Walkazo 13:09, 27 September 2013 (EDT)
- My point about Birdos and Yoshis has more to do with how they seem to all have seem to have set genders (I suppose) across their species, but if that doesn't work then here's another example (albeit a different Nintendo series): Tauros and Miltank. Considered different species, but all have the opposite gender and are similar enough to be considered "counterparts" (it's completely irrelevant they were introduced at different times, but this is virtually universally accepted). Or actually, going back to Mario: Boss Bass and Big Bertha are considered male and female-exclusive sub-species of Cheep Cheep, respectively. But that's neither here nor there - the Japanese flavor text for both characters normally doesn't differentiate from singular and plural from my understanding, so you've still got varying official translations out there that refer to either of them in the singular or plural form. Some "ambiguous talk" is unavoidable because of certain vague qualities in the language. In any case, I maintain that Boom Boom(s) and Pom Pom(s) is/are categorically different based on the fact they are always classified as separate entities, regardless if you go by the original or a localization...especially considering the Boom Boom articles are primarily split due to conflicting, inconsistent translation in the first place. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:32, 27 September 2013 (EDT)
- Except there have been explicitly male and female Yoshis (and you could argue that the different ways the Birdo character is dealt with also indicate that there are male and female Birdos too, but that's a really messy situation). The Boss Bass / Big Bertha thing seems to be more like the Nidorans of Pokémon than Tauros and Miltank since their Japanese names are the same, "Kyodai Pukupuku", save for the gender sign - I'm not even sure if anything in English even says they're male/female counterparts (it's not in the SMB3, YIDS, SM64DS, SMAS or NSMB manuals, at any rate). But either way, that's beside the point: what matters is what's happening with this species. And while Japanese usually is useless for plural/singular stuff, the phrase used to describe Pom Pom literally means "the lone female": 「紅一点」 (the full line's here): it's not ambiguous at all - it's very deliberate (and a deliberate pun, too). Inconsistencies between localizations give us wiggle room to deal with subjects in the most logical way possible without having to break from canon; it'd be folly to not look at different translations, because that'd be ignoring whole swathes of valuable information. - Walkazo 19:33, 28 September 2013 (EDT)
- Hm, I think whether or not there are truly supposed to be Yoshi genders is arguable because in the rare case they give out gender-specific designations it's likely certain localizers doing what sounds better and not realizing that it's supposed to be an it all along, but I digress. However, while I don't think there's much to add on this topic at the moment, I do want to point out that there's a recent Super Mario 3D World screenshot with multiple Pom Poms, which would seem to back me up on the idea of keeping them separate (seen here). While the game isn't out yet and for all we know she does a duplicate trick before the battle like a Chargin' Chuck, it's nonetheless something to keep an eye on for the game's release. LinkTheLefty (talk) 14:06, 15 October 2013 (EDT)
- Except there have been explicitly male and female Yoshis (and you could argue that the different ways the Birdo character is dealt with also indicate that there are male and female Birdos too, but that's a really messy situation). The Boss Bass / Big Bertha thing seems to be more like the Nidorans of Pokémon than Tauros and Miltank since their Japanese names are the same, "Kyodai Pukupuku", save for the gender sign - I'm not even sure if anything in English even says they're male/female counterparts (it's not in the SMB3, YIDS, SM64DS, SMAS or NSMB manuals, at any rate). But either way, that's beside the point: what matters is what's happening with this species. And while Japanese usually is useless for plural/singular stuff, the phrase used to describe Pom Pom literally means "the lone female": 「紅一点」 (the full line's here): it's not ambiguous at all - it's very deliberate (and a deliberate pun, too). Inconsistencies between localizations give us wiggle room to deal with subjects in the most logical way possible without having to break from canon; it'd be folly to not look at different translations, because that'd be ignoring whole swathes of valuable information. - Walkazo 19:33, 28 September 2013 (EDT)
- My point about Birdos and Yoshis has more to do with how they seem to all have seem to have set genders (I suppose) across their species, but if that doesn't work then here's another example (albeit a different Nintendo series): Tauros and Miltank. Considered different species, but all have the opposite gender and are similar enough to be considered "counterparts" (it's completely irrelevant they were introduced at different times, but this is virtually universally accepted). Or actually, going back to Mario: Boss Bass and Big Bertha are considered male and female-exclusive sub-species of Cheep Cheep, respectively. But that's neither here nor there - the Japanese flavor text for both characters normally doesn't differentiate from singular and plural from my understanding, so you've still got varying official translations out there that refer to either of them in the singular or plural form. Some "ambiguous talk" is unavoidable because of certain vague qualities in the language. In any case, I maintain that Boom Boom(s) and Pom Pom(s) is/are categorically different based on the fact they are always classified as separate entities, regardless if you go by the original or a localization...especially considering the Boom Boom articles are primarily split due to conflicting, inconsistent translation in the first place. LinkTheLefty (talk) 15:32, 27 September 2013 (EDT)
And now, it turns out that both Boom Boom, Pom Pom and even Bowser can duplicate themselves in Super Mario 3D World. I kinda knew it would happen, but not too soon. But Pom Pom is definitely not a species.--Prince Ludwig (talk) 01:00, 25 November 2013 (EST)
