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Talk:Level: Difference between revisions
→Arguments for "course"
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== Hold on There == | == Hold on There == | ||
Levels are much different from places, though, and with the rebirth I'm giving to [[ | Levels are much different from places, though, and with the rebirth I'm giving to [[PipeProject:Levels]] with {{tem|level infobox}}, I think there should a list for Levels. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 17:26, 3 January 2007 (EST) | ||
:Consider [[At Last, Bowser's Castle!]], [[Ba-dum BUM!]], [[The Goonie Coast Isn't Clear!]]. Definitely not places. "Endless World of Yoshis", "Items are Fun!", etc., I admit that some levels are places and should be placed as such, but some levels are not, and thus a Levels list is necessary. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 21:04, 3 January 2007 (EST) | :Consider [[At Last, Bowser's Castle!]], [[Ba-dum BUM!]], [[The Goonie Coast Isn't Clear!]]. Definitely not places. "Endless World of Yoshis", "Items are Fun!", etc., I admit that some levels are places and should be placed as such, but some levels are not, and thus a Levels list is necessary. {{User:Wayoshi/sig}} 21:04, 3 January 2007 (EST) | ||
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== What is this page? == | == What is this page? == | ||
It has one paragraph that explains how a level works in general, and another gigantic paragraph that lists basically what [[Goal]] does already, but instead as a mass of jumble--and missing a lot of content, on top of that. That second paragraph should be removed, and the rest merged with the Mario Wiki Glossary just as it was enunciated in the proposal above. -- {{User:Super Radio/Sig}} 07:55, 13 March 2018 (EDT) | It has one paragraph that explains how a level works in general, and another gigantic paragraph that lists basically what [[Goal]] does already, but instead as a mass of jumble--and missing a lot of content, on top of that. That second paragraph should be removed, and the rest merged with the Mario Wiki Glossary just as it was enunciated in the proposal above. -- {{User:Super Radio/Sig}} 07:55, 13 March 2018 (EDT) | ||
== Merge to the [[MarioWiki:Glossary|Glossary]] == | == Merge to the [[MarioWiki:Glossary|Glossary]] == | ||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ | {{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|6-8}} | ||
Yes, I know I proposed something about this before, but what I ''was'' proposing didn't take into account the fact that "Level" never appears in the glossary. Therefore, I propose that we merge all relevant information on this page to the glossary, and leave this page behind as a redirect. | Yes, I know I proposed something about this before, but what I ''was'' proposing didn't take into account the fact that "Level" never appears in the glossary. Therefore, I propose that we merge all relevant information on this page to the glossary, and leave this page behind as a redirect. | ||
'''Proposer:''' {{user|Toadette the Achiever}}<br> | '''Proposer:''' {{user|Toadette the Achiever}}<br> | ||
'''Deadline:''' April 19, 2019, 23:59 GMT | '''Deadline:''' <del>April 19, 2019, 23:59 GMT Extended to April 26, 2019, 23:59 GMT</del> <s>Extended to May 3, 2019, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to May, 10, 2019, 23:59 GMT | ||
===Support=== | ===Support=== | ||
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#{{User|EDShoot}} Per all. Doesn't really make sense to me for this to exist. Would be a better fit for the glossary. | #{{User|EDShoot}} Per all. Doesn't really make sense to me for this to exist. Would be a better fit for the glossary. | ||
#{{User|Doomhiker}} This page is literally a glorified glossary entry, so you can see why I agree with the above users. | #{{User|Doomhiker}} This page is literally a glorified glossary entry, so you can see why I agree with the above users. | ||
#{{User|GrainedCargo192}} Per all. | |||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Per the Mario vote (me) that decided against [[platform|removing platform]] as its own page. Not covered in the glossary, add the entry, a sentence of description, link to main article. Not hard. My quote: "'' Furthermore, MarioWiki: Glossary doesn't really cover the tangible video game objects as much as video game terminology (e.g. lives, KOs, SDs, health, player). A ton of articles on generic video game elements including Elevator, Cannonball, Rope, Pit, Level, and a huge deal of things in the terms category and traps and obstacles category, where the example articles I've listed came from, exist. I'm not saying that every article within these categories is valid, but once this proposal passes, you have to start considering the validity of a lot of things in those categories and that's something I'm not comfortable doing just yet.''" | #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Per the Mario vote (me) that decided against [[platform|removing platform]] as its own page. Not covered in the glossary, add the entry, a sentence of description, link to main article. Not hard. My quote: "'' Furthermore, MarioWiki: Glossary doesn't really cover the tangible video game objects as much as video game terminology (e.g. lives, KOs, SDs, health, player). A ton of articles on generic video game elements including Elevator, Cannonball, Rope, Pit, Level, and a huge deal of things in the terms category and traps and obstacles category, where the example articles I've listed came from, exist. I'm not saying that every article within these categories is valid, but once this proposal passes, you have to start considering the validity of a lot of things in those categories and that's something I'm not comfortable doing just yet.''" | ||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Bazooka Mario. We have plenty of other articles about generic video game concepts less noteworthy than levels. | #{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per Bazooka Mario. We have plenty of other articles about generic video game concepts less noteworthy than levels. | ||
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|MediaVideoEditor856}}Per all! | |||
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} Per LGM. | |||
#{{User|WeirdDave13}} Per all. | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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::::Sorry I was mad... Sorry for yelling at you FanOfYoshi. [[User:HEROMARIO|[-]€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 14:09, April 13, 2019 (EDT) | ::::Sorry I was mad... Sorry for yelling at you FanOfYoshi. [[User:HEROMARIO|[-]€40 分@4¡0]] ([[User talk:HEROMARIO|talk]]) 14:09, April 13, 2019 (EDT) | ||
:::::I don't see in what this should be merged. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:55, April 17, 2019 (EDT) | :::::I don't see in what this should be merged. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:55, April 17, 2019 (EDT) | ||
::::::Also, HEROMARIO, no problem. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:38, April 18, 2019 (EDT) | |||
== Merge to the Glossary, take 2 == | |||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|4-0|merge}} | |||
Yup, I think we're finally ready for this to happen. | |||
Part of the reason my original proposal didn't gain enough consensus was because this article had room for improvement. The leading counterargument was summed up by [[User:Bazooka Mario|Bazooka Mario]] in the comments section: | |||
<blockquote> | |||
''"I mean, levels are a collection of objects and are tangible too? [[Game Over]] is even more abstract than "level" and that has its own page, mainly from examples of Game Overs. [[Time Limit]] is also more abstract than "Level" as well. I reviewed the glossary, and there seems to be little direct platforming elements in the page, and level just doesn't fit there. [[Health Meter]] has its own page. [[Extra life]] has its own page. [[Point]] has its own page. [[World]] has is own page. What's wrong with level having its own page? Level, in fact, '''can be expanded''', we can write sections about common level archetypes, actually, write up small subsection on grass, desert, beach, ice, mountain, lava, ghost house, outer space, castle, fortress."'' | |||
</blockquote> | |||
Well, now that her suggestion [[List of level themes|is a reality]] (and surprises me by how well it's worked out in practice), I think it's time we reconsider this action with a fresh(er) mindset. Just like before, the relevant information will be merged with the [[MarioWiki:Glossary|Glossary]], and this title will be kept as a redirect. | |||
'''Proposer:''' {{User|Toadette the Achiever}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline:''' June 21, 2020, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Support=== | |||
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Because levels appear in our universe too. | |||
#{{User|DarkNight}} Per preposal. | |||
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per proposal. | |||
===Oppose=== | |||
===Comments=== | |||
I'm not sure what to vote. I agree with Bazooka Mario's statement that it should have been this page's job to expand on different level themes encountered in the ''Mario'' franchise; now that there's a separate article for that, this page feels rather superfluous. Therefore, I would be more keen on merging the list of level themes with this page here than turn "Level" into a glossary term. The concept of Level is more tangible than things we cover on their own pages, and so it still deserves its own article. Either way this goes, as I said before in this very talkpage, the content currently on this page shamelessly deviates from the main subject and needs to be trimmed. {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 18:22, June 19, 2020 (EDT) | |||
Shouldn't a proposal have at least 5 supporting votes in order to pass? {{User:Bye Guy/Sig}} 12:16, June 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:I think it needs at least 3 not 5 but I might be wrong.[[User:Duckfan77|Duckfan77]] ([[User talk:Duckfan77|talk]]) 12:54, June 24, 2020 (EDT) | |||
== Thoughts after the proposal == | |||
I was unfortunately not active during the time the proposal went up. I, however, do agree with {{User|Koopa con Carne}} that [[List of level themes]] should have been the expansion for the level article rather than a separate page. I believe the merge of level to glossary is inconsistent with other generic game concepts that do get their own article, as discussed several times, such as [[Time Limit]], [[Heart Point|HP]], [[World]], [[Genre]] (it's odd that World has its own page but Level does not). I do like how List of level themes was created and it is how I pictured that article expansion, but I believe simply having the content be in "level" works better. It's easier to search for common level themes in a "level" article than search the exact words "list of level themes". Alternatively, we can also use {{tem|main}} and link to the list of level themes, so people searching for "level" can still access the list of level themes article, but the Level page should've been mostly what the list of level themes page is currently (oh and we include autoscrolling and automatic levels, why not). {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 20:46, December 12, 2020 (EST) | |||
:Agreed with moving the content from "List of level themes" over here. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 12:33, December 20, 2020 (EST) | |||
==Arguments for "course"== | |||
{{talk}} | |||
I would like to reopen the discussion of using the term ''course'' instead of ''level''. | |||
In the 2013 proposal, the main argument for every opposing vote was that ''level'' is more colloquial, to the point of sometimes being used in official products. This is untenable. As a matter of [[Project:Naming|policy]], we try to find the most current names that are most widely used in official material; we treat secondary names as contextual, and colloquialisms as a last resort. Otherwise, the wiki would be an unprofessional mess full of confusing divergences from the text of the games. | |||
I think the localized name for ''Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels'' is adequately explained by the fact that the series was in its infancy, and a great many terms were yet to be finalized. It would be appropriate to use ''level'' in sections on ''The Lost Levels'', but not in general coverage. Modern names get priority. I cannot find any special exception for terms used in media titles. "[[Princess Toadstool for President]]" does not preclude the title character's article from being named Princess Peach. | |||
To be fair, the use of ''course'' or ''level'' is still not entirely consistent, just as one source may use ''the blue mushroom'' instead of Mini Mushroom. However, since the proposal, the ''Super Mario Maker'' games have emerged. These are games about making courses, and Nintendo's preferred terminology is clear. Players can use Course Maker to place course parts and choose between course themes, before uploading their courses to Course World. Coursebot, which stores sample courses created by Nintendo, is a modern analog to ''The Lost Levels'': a recurring character with ''course'' in the name. Many people are too used to calling them "levels" to notice, but this observation should not shoulder an ''argumentum ad populum''. I think ''level'' is a secondary official name at best. | |||
It almost feels like there's a larger trend of ignoring name confirmations from the ''Maker'' games. We still have yet to rename [[Warp Pipe]] to Pipe, or [[Beanstalk]] to Vine, names that are not only written in text but sung to the player. With Nintendo listing these games as part of the main ''Super Mario'' series, the terms used therein should be taken as highly representative of the brand. | |||
Another argument from the 2013 proposal is that ''course'' could be confused for the courses in the ''Mario Kart'' series. Well, any criticism of Nintendo's terms should be directed at Nintendo. They choose the names; we merely relay that information, even when they come up with confusing names like ''New Super Mario Bros. 2''. We don't even have an article on ''Mario Kart'' courses, but if ever we do, we already have methods for disambiguating similar titles: | |||
:''This article is about the obstacle courses in platforming games. For racecourses, see…'' | |||
Supposedly, the term ''level'' is more precise than ''course'' in that it cannot refer to racetracks. With it being a general term, I simply fail to see how this is true. These are sections of the games that are set in distinct locations, and in the primary Grand Prix mode, the player progresses through them sequentially. Regardless of whether they technically count, I would be surprised if laypeople never describe them as levels. | |||
Overall, we do not prefer colloquial, outdated, or secondary terms to current official names, and I see no reason to exempt the concept of a platforming course from our naming policies. Please tell me if I am missing anything, or if I should try to make this into a proper new proposal. [[User:AgentMuffin|AgentMuffin]] ([[User talk:AgentMuffin|talk]]) 19:00, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:Strong support. The latest Mario game to use the term "level" was ''[[Mini Mario & Friends: amiibo Challenge]]'', 7 years ago, and that game comes from a series that has used inconsistent terminology such as "room" and "area" to refer to the concept of discrete, but interconnected, gameplay set-pieces. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:27, April 17, 2023 (EDT) | |||
::I still think "level" is the best option especially for a gaming wiki. I don't have precise numbers but "level" is likely used way more across the wiki than "course". I think renaming this article to "course" is going to create pretty annoying piping and redirect issues when "level" is a far more familiar term (and it's far from a dated term). Not to mention, should we rename all the subcategories in [[:Category:Levels]], rename our various navigation templates (or parts of navigation templates) like {{tem|YIDS levels}}, rename our templates {{tem|level infobox}}, to reflect the new preferred naming scheme? Or do we just stop at article name and article content, where we create this discrepancy where we just semi-endorse the new term? Additionally, this assumes the scope is limited to the 2D ''Mario'' platformers; there's no guarantee that the gameplay elements are also called "courses" in other series such as ''Super Smash Bros.'', various Mario Sports games, or in Paper Mario, so do we apply "course" to those too? Or do we keep "course" just for 2D Mario levels? That's not going to be good for wiki editors, a lot of restructuring over relatively minor semantics, a lot of headache over the extent of how we should apply these changes. We do try to adhere to naming guidelines most of the time, but these are guidelines in the end, and I don't think these guidelines were written with generic, versatile terminology in mind. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:50, April 20, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::You do realize we can just use [[User:PorpleBot|PorpleBot]] to rename "level" to "course" right? Porple designed it for tasks like that, which would otherwise take ages to fix normally. In fact, just the other day PorpleBot removed all the "MW:[TEXT]" redirects and replaced all instances of them with "SMW:[TEXT]" (for reasons I do not understand in the slightest, that just made "MW" redirect to media wiki, but it still shows we have the means to update a lot of terminology really quickly). And regarding your inquiry, Smash uses "stages", Paper Mario uses "chapter", and the Mario Sports series use "courses", so there would not be a conflict there. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 21:22, April 20, 2023 (EDT) | |||
Technically, PMSS & PMCS both use "Course" for areas of gameplay, like [[Leaflitter Path|"W3-1: Leaflitter Path]]" and "[[Ruddy Road]]", and upon grabbing/Hitting a [[Comet Piece]] or [[Mini Paint Star]], the "Course Clear!" Message appears, so the Paper Mario series does use "Course". Sorry! I'm an anonymous user, don't question me about not signing this. {{unsigned|106.69.169.5}} | |||
::At least have course as a redirect. It currently goes to the glossary, and it's not even there! [[Special:Contributions/203.87.0.106|203.87.0.106]] 11:46, May 21, 2023 (EDT) | |||
:::Yeah that was an oversight. The level page itself turned into a redirect at one point, so a bot tried to fix the double redirect. It should redirect appropriately now. {{User:Mario/sig}} 14:03, May 21, 2023 (EDT) | |||
I know I'm late to this but I'm surprised no one seems to have brought up how in [[Yamamura's Dojo]] in Mario Maker 2, there's literally a running joke where Yamamura gets annoyed at Nina incorrectly using the term "levels" instead of "courses". That feels to me like an incredibly clear confirmation of the preferred official name. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 18:42, April 28, 2024 (EDT) | |||
== More Arguments For Course == | |||
To start this of fresh, I'd like to ask when the last time you saw "Level" instead of "Course" in an official, main-series Super Mario game (Not counting remakes). I'd like to see you folks out there try! Now, my list of reasons: | |||
1: Course is used in SMM and SMM2, meaning it's recent AND official. | |||
2: Level is an outdated term in case of Mario games, last appearing in Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3, which happens to be a stinkin' REMAKE! | |||
3: Level was only IMPLIED in SMB:TLL, because of it's English name. (Which isn't even a proper translation!) | |||
4: In the NSMB series, Course is used. | |||
5: "Course" refers to certain areas in some Paper Mario games. | |||
6: You could make an article about Mariokart racecourses if you want to distinguish them. | |||
7: How many times do I need to say "Course" to convince you? Here goes: Course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course course. | |||
Those are my reasons. Start a poll if you want to, or AT LEAST answer my question above. [[Special:Contributions/115.64.13.206|115.64.13.206]] 06:55, June 12, 2023 (EDT) | |||
== Replace this page. == | |||
The only reason this page exists is to be a list of course themes. Why not have page called "[[Theme|Themes]]" instead? Besides, that way we could make it more comprehensive. {{unsigned|DogeKakesDaKing}} | |||