Template talk:Foreign names: Difference between revisions

Template talk:Foreign names (edit)

Revision as of 05:43, April 6, 2024

16,109 bytes added , 2 months ago

m

→‎Non-in-game: removing template

Hewer

8,413

edits

@@ Line 326: / Line 326: @@
 == Literal translation ==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|1-0-1-12|Stop using "literal translation" entirely}}
 As there isn't an official rule/guideline about whether or not to use "literal translation" (or a variation thereof) (and if so, how to use it), I suggest that we make one.
@@ Line 351: / Line 351: @@
 #{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
 #{{User|Owencrazyboy9}} My preferred option. It's not always obvious with some games whether English or Japanese is the original language the games were developed in.
+#{{User|HappyToad}} See my comment below
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
+#{{User|Benjaminkirsc}} That is very confusing. Also per all.
+===Comments===
+I'd never really thought about it, but now that it's been brought up, I've suddenly realised how vague the term is (to be perfectly honest, I thought it meant something completely different to what everyone else here does), so I think that unless we can ''properly'' clarify the meaning and potentially make large-scale changes to the affected pages, the simplest thing to do is just take the term out of circulation entirely. Also, as Archivist Toadette said, the use of these literal translations borders on laziness anyway. {{User:HappyToad/sig}} 04:26, November 15, 2020 (EST)
+== All Languages needed==
+I made this a new section since it doesn’t really fit under "5 languages" anymore. Here is a list of all missing languages:
+*Arabic: TAOSMB3 and SMW TV show (needs romanization section)
+*Galician: Saturday Supercade (needed for [[Belinda]])
+*Greek: TAOSMB3 (needs romanization section)
+*Malay: SMBSS
+*Slovak: LEGO Mario app
+*Slovene: TAOSMB3
+*Thai: TAOSMB3 (needs romanization section)
+*Turkish: LEGO Mario app
+*Ukrainian: LEGO Mario app (needs romanization section)
+Please don’t ignore me like everyone always does.
+[[User:Grandet Omate|Grandet Omate]] ([[User talk:Grandet Omate|talk]]) 09:42, January 8, 2021 (EDT)
+:Yeah, I think that's reasonable. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 10:30, January 8, 2021 (EST)
+== All Languages Needed (Revised) ==
+I have a list of every official language that needs to be added now:
+*Arabic: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tPSdnL5FVCE Super Mario] (needs romanization section)
+*Croatian: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9p5R09s_vng Super Mario World]
+*Estonian: [https://www.lego.com/et-ee/search?q=Mario Lego.com]
+*Greek: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rAj3AFH2gBc The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3] and [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oy6NgMNhquA Super Mario World] (needs romanization section)
+*Indonesian: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GHj5mkZD6qA The Super Mario Bros. Super Show!]
+*Latvian: [https://www.lego.com/lv-lv/search?q=Mario Lego.com]
+*Lithuanian: [https://www.lego.com/lt-lt/search?q=Mario Lego.com]
+*Slovak: [https://www.lego.com/sk-sk/search?q=Mario Lego.com] and [https://www.nintendo.sk/news/objevte-spolecne-zabavny-svet-maria-v-super-mario-3d-world-bowsers-fury-nyni-dostupne-na-nintendo-switch/ Nintendo.com]
+*Slovenian: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9mk-Mo4adCk The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3]
+*Thai: [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PWswoOOnJkk%7C The Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3] (needs romanization section)
+*Turkish: LEGO Mario app
+*Ukrainian: LEGO Mario app (needs romanization section)
+It didn’t feel right to respond to another user with, so I made it a new section.
+[[User:Grandet Omate|Grandet Omate]] ([[User talk:Grandet Omate|talk]]) 14:05, April 20, 2021 (EDT)
+== Talked in North or Latin America? ==
+I'm a bit upset with a part of this template. You see, the sections for French and Spanish have 2 variants: NOA (North American) and NOE (European): I'm OK with the French language in that respect (obviously, because of Canada's french inside Quebec), but with Spanish I'm not OK. I mean, in The Americas, Spanish is mainly talked in '''South America''' and '''Mexico''' and they form, alongside Brazil and French Guiana, what's called Latin America, and the people who live there are around 600.000.000, as opposed to the 40.000.000 people who live in the USA and speak Spanish alongside English. Then, why did the template's creator chose to call that variation "NOA" Spanish when most people that speak Spanish in The Americas don't live in the US?
+--[[User:LEGOGames1000|LEGOGames1000]] ([[User talk:LEGOGames1000|talk]]) 13:00, May 9, 2021 (EDT)
+:I believe in this case that NOE and NOA stand for Nintendo of Europe and Nintendo of America respectively. If I'm remembering correctly, as far as I know Nintendo of America handles translations for Latin America and South America as well as North America. So I think the template is referring to the translation by Nintendo of America, not the translation for North America. Someone else can correct me on this if I'm wrong though. [[User:BBQ Turtle|BBQ Turtle]] ([[User talk:BBQ Turtle|talk]]) 13:09, May 9, 2021 (EDT)
+== Order ==
+Instead of alphabetical order, how about an order that makes more sense, such as age/importance, sort of like how [[smashwiki:Template:Langtable|SmashWiki does it]]. My proposed order: Japanese --> French --> German --> Spanish --> Italian --> Dutch --> Chinese --> Korean --> Russian --> Portuguese --> everything else. <!--On a side note, I was used to the original order.--> <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|RickTommy]] ([[User talk:RickTommy|talk]])</span> 20:26, June 9, 2021 (EDT)
+:I'd personally put Spanish above French, but this seems like a good order. I do wonder why this was changed. {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 21:42, June 13, 2021 (EDT)
+::It was changed because [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Foreign_names&oldid=3174583 the list] was getting long and for tables with many languages, it wasn't intuitive for a new reader to find the language they're looking for. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 22:49, June 13, 2021 (EDT)
+== Official guide on when to list certain translations ==
+Hi, I have always been confused on what the rules/preferred way is. For stuff like game titles it seems like we only list translations that are either in a different writing style (JP/CN/KR) and languages where the title is the same (usually FR/ES/DE etc...) arent listed even if the game supports said languages. [[Super Mario Odyssey]] as an example.
+Yet other stuff such as enemies have languages where the name of the thing is the same still listed ( [[Goomba]] as an example). Is it literally just video game titles that don't list the "redundant" languages or is it something else? and is this rule mentioned anywhere or did it kind of just happen? - [[User:Zachruff|Zachruff]] ([[User talk:Zachruff|talk]]) 23:56, December 22, 2021 (EST)
+== Icelandic, Malay ==
+Could someone add Icelandic? This is needed since [[The Super Mario Bros. Movie]] is being translated into these languages. --[[User:Raltseye|<span style="color:#FF6464">R</span><span style="color:#11BB11">alts</span><span style="color:#6464FF">eye</span>]] [[User talk:Raltseye|prata med mej]] 08:40, October 13, 2022 (EDT)
+== Please add Serbian ==
+It is officially now known that ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' will be dubbed into Serbian. Could you please add this Serbo-Croatian language variety to the template? The only other Serbo-Croatian standardized variant that's currently represented is Croatian. [[User:Zakawer2|Zakawer2]] ([[User talk:Zakawer2|talk]]) 12:22, November 30, 2022 (EST)
+== Add parameters for Serbo-Croatian and Bosnian ==
+I am requesting the addition of a Serbo-Croatian parameter that is separate from the existing Serbian and Croatian ones, to be used in instances where the name of a particular subject is the same across Serbo-Croatian standards. This is currently the case with a few LEGO ''Super Mario'' products: for example, the name of the Banzai Bill set is identical between the official [https://lstore.hr/products/kiaa-metaka-s-banzai-billom-71366 Croatian], [https://svijetkockica.ba/proizvod/kisa-metaka-s-banzai-billom-prosirena-staza/ Bosnian], and [https://lstore.rs/products/kisa-metaka-s-banzai-billom-71366 Serbian] LEGO stores. Serbian and Croatian should still have their own parameters, though, to account for regional differences, akin to the "Spanish (NOA)" and "Spanish (NOE)" parameters. In this respect, a parameter for Bosnian names should also be added, as a few LEGO ''Super Mario'' products listed on the Bosnian LEGO store, such as the [https://svijetkockica.ba/proizvod/super-mario-64-blok-upitnika/ SM64 ? Block], have localised names that differ from their Serbian and Croatian counterparts and should be documented. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:57, January 17, 2023 (EST)
+== Adopt the de-facto format for dissecting foreign names ==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-3|do not use format}}
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Jdtendo}}<br>
+'''Deadline''': December 5, 2023, 23:59 GMT
+There is currently no official format for dissecting foreign names in "Names in other languages" sections. However, there is a de-facto format is used extensively throughout the Super Mario Wiki: surrounding the foreign words with quotation marks (or angle brackets for Japanese and Chinese), and surrounding the English translation with parentheses. Here is an example:
+{{foreign names
+|Jap=マガツリー
+|JapR=Magatsurī
+|JapM=Play on「禍津日神」(''Magatsuhi-kami'', god of misfortune) and「ツリー」(''tsurī'', tree)
+|FraE=Épouvantarbre
+|FraEM=From "épouvante" (terror) and "arbre" (tree)
+|Ita=Stregalbero
+|ItaM=From "strega" (witch) and "albero" (tree)
+|SpaA=Arbólico
+|SpaAM=From "árbol" (tree) and "diabólico" (diabolic)
+}}
+However, some users disagree and will edit a page just for replacing the de-facto format used in a "Names in other languages" section with another format which they consider to be the "right" format, usually by replacing the quotations marks with italics or adding quotation marks around the English translation. Conversely, other users will edit a page just to replace that alternative format with the de-facto format. Basically, every user has their own vision of how name dissecting should be formatted, and this creates unnecessary edits and disputes.
+I propose that we officially adopt the de-facto format for dissecting names, i.e., that we add a subsection in the "[[Template:Foreign names#Meaning guidelines|Meaning guidelines]]" section that describes how to dissect names in accordance with the de-facto format. This would provide a clear-cut way to settle format-related disputes, whilst not requiring too many page edits to accomodate the format since it is already widely used.
+===Support===
+#{{User|Jdtendo}} Per proposal.
+===Oppose===
+#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} [https://knowadays.com/blog/when-to-use-italics-for-non-english-words/ Most major style manuals] (sources in that link), including the wiki's go-to manual MLA, recommend italicizing foreign words, whether always or only or their first use. Official style manuals exist for a purpose: to make writing consistent and help instil some professionality. The format in your proposal doesn't do much in the way of that: why are romanized Japanese words written in italics, but not other foreign words? what makes foreign words, but not their translations, specifically fit to have quotation marks? isn't the purpose of quotation marks to set off words that are mentioned or listed separately from the rest of their clause? Perhaps there are cases where the wiki can deviate ever so slightly from established writing standards to accommodate whatever specific needs it has, especially since style manuals themselves aren't a commandment from the heavens and are subject to change; that doesn't mean it should fully embark in that direction and make rules on the fly, moreso if the only argument for it is "well it's always been that way". Make it make sense.
+#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per Koopa con Carne
+#{{User|YoYo}} Per Koopa con Carne
 ===Comments===
+I understand the desire to minimize unnecessary edits, but what makes the de facto format the ideal choice? The format used by MLA standards doesn't do that, it uses italics around foreign words and quotes around the translations (which I assume is because for translations it's meant to indicate what parts of the sentence are the translation, eg. 'It translates to "the bird"'). Also, just to let you know, those edits with people changing one style to another is mostly a group of IPs, I've seen many users here revert those edits before. {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 07:07, November 21, 2023 (EST)
+:I'm not sure whether following the MLA standards really matters. Personally, I find the de-facto format easier on the eyes. As for the people making the edits, some of them are registered users. One recent example is the Kero Sewers page, in which [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Kero_Sewers&diff=4050701&oldid=4050689 one registered user replaced the de-facto style with the italicized format], then [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Kero_Sewers&diff=4052314&oldid=4051672 another registered user reverted it to the de-facto format]. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 14:33, November 22, 2023 (EST)
+== Can we add some more Jap slots? ==
+Some things have many names and the numbered method is a lifesaver. But since there's only three slots, that mitigates its usefulness in many cases. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:56, January 7, 2024 (EST)
+:Adding to this - I think Chinese and Korean can benefit from some number slots, too. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:05, January 7, 2024 (EST)
+== Bug when mixing "Fre" and "FreA" ==
+There is a bug in the template when specifying the "Fre" argument along with "FreA" or "FreE".
+For example, in the [[Monty Mole#Names in other languages|Monty Mole]] article, this source code is used:
+<pre>
+|FreA=La taupe Monty (''[[Super Mario World]]'' manual)
+|FreAM=The Monty mole
+|Fre=Topi Taupe
+|FreM=From ''taupe'' ("mole")
+</pre>
+It specifies that Monty Moles were originally called "La taupe Monty" in the Canadian French manual of SMW but are now called "Topi Taupe" in all French-speaking regions.
+However, the name "La taupe Monty" is inaccurately displayed in both "French" and "French (NOA)" sections.
+I think that this is due to the use of <code><nowiki>#forargs</nowiki></code> in the template that allows parameterized argument names such as "Fre2", "Fre3", etc. but it also mistakingly consider "FreA" as a valid parameterized argument name for "Fre".
+The template already checks for argument names ending with "M" to exclude them from the parameterized arguments, but it should also exclude argument names starting with "FreA" or "FreE" when checking for parameterized arguments for "Fre".
+Or better yet, we could check whether the parameterized keys only contain digits ("Fre'''2'''", "Fre'''3'''"…) and exclude the keys that contain other characters ("Fre'''A'''", "Fre'''M'''"…).
+I think that this could be done using [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:RegexFunctions regex] with something like <code><nowiki>{{#rmatch:{{#var:key}}|^[0-9]*$|yes|no}}</nowiki></code>.
+This bug probably affects other argument names that are a prefix of another argument name, such as "Chi" ("ChiS", "ChiT"), "Fre" ("FreA", "FreE"), "Por" ("PorA", "PorE"), "Ser" ("SerCro"), "Spa" ("SpaA", "SpaE").
+{{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 03:18, February 14, 2024 (EST)
+:Ah, good point. Currently doing the check a different way, but it should be fixed now. Thanks! --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 10:18, February 14, 2024 (EST)
+::Unfortunately, it does not work for "Fre'''E'''" because <code><nowiki>{{#expr:E}}</nowiki></code> is a valid expression that evaluates to 2.718281828459. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 10:38, February 14, 2024 (EST)
+::Maybe checking <code><nowiki>{{#expr:{{#var:key}}0}}</nowiki></code> would work. "E" is a valid expression, but "E0" is not, whereas a number key would still be a number. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 10:48, February 14, 2024 (EST)
+:::Yes, I think we're good to go with the 0's! --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 11:02, February 14, 2024 (EST)
+== Non-in-game ==
+Do [https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=Coin_Block_Blitz&diff=4138110&oldid=4106530 non-in-game names that are identical to the English name] count? <span style="font-family:Mario Party 2/3 Textbox">[[User:RickTommy|RickTommy]] ([[User talk:RickTommy|talk]])</span> 19:50, March 19, 2024 (EDT)
+:I think that they count, as long as they come from an official source. {{User:Jdtendo/sig}} 11:59, March 20, 2024 (EDT)