Talk:Bee: Difference between revisions

Talk:Bee (edit)

Revision as of 10:26, September 21, 2022

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→‎The "Comparable" Species Section: no longer relevant

Somethingone

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+==Honeybee==
 Can we move/split this to [[Honeybee]]? Look at this screenshot:
 [[File:SMG2 Letter Honeybee.png|thumb|none|500px]]
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 ==Split Bee (''Yoshi's Story'') and Bee (''Super Mario Galaxy'')==
-{{TPP}}
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|failed|1-5}}
 For some reason, this page is essentially just a list of bees in the ''Mario'' series. Because of this, the bee NPCs in ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and the bee enemies from ''Yoshi's Story'' are on this page, even though they have nothing to do with each other or generic real-world bees, any more than they have to do with [[Beezley]]s or [[Zinger]]s. Sure, they don't have unique names, but neither do [[Bee (Wario Land II)|Bees]] and we have those split.
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 ====Oppose====
-#{{User|Walkazo}} - The only one I'd consider would be the anthropomorphic ''SMG'' Bees, but I really fail to see how the ''SMS''' and ''YS'' subjects are anything more than generic, swarming, stinging bees. [[Bee (Wario Land II)]] has a specific purpose to turn Wario into [[Puffy Wario]], plus it has a unique Japanese name to help justify the split, but that's not the case here. It's simpler to just keep all the info in one place rather than splitting hairs and content alike, and then risk getting the gutted central article deleted per [[MarioWiki:Generic Subjects]].
+#{{User|Walkazo}} - The only one I'd consider would be the anthropomorphic ''SMG'' Bees, but I really fail to see how the ''SMS''' and ''YS'' subjects are anything more than generic, swarming, stinging bees. [[Bee (Wario Land II)]] has a specific purpose to turn Wario into [[Puffy Wario]], plus it has a unique Japanese name to help justify the split, but that's not the case here. It's simpler to just keep all the info in one place rather than splitting hairs and content alike, and then risk getting the gutted central article deleted per [[MarioWiki:Generic subjects]].
 #{{User|LudwigVon}} Per Walkazo. I would support if it was only for the Super Mario Galaxy's bees. Create a page for SMG's bees is better and let the others bees here.
 #{{User|Bazooka Mario}} Well, yeah, this is a list of generic bees because generic subjects don't need separate individual articles for every time they occur. I don't see exactly why they need to be split, especially when you could apply the same logic to [[Butterfly]], [[Chicken]] (the ''Mario Golf'' and ''Mario Party'' variants?), [[Crow]], etc. Rule of thumb: recurring generic species ''should'' get an article that lists them; otherwise, they should be named with an identifier if the generic species appear twice. Exceptions apply. Also, why stop at animals? Why not split [[Barrel]], [[Soccer Ball]], and [[Banana]] by function and game appearance as well?
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 Removed the mention of ''SMS'' bees since those are pretty much normal bees. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:27, 31 January 2016 (EST)
-:Still on the oppose side. Per all reason stated here on the comments and on the opposition why Yoshi's Story's bee sould not be separate from here. The only one I support are the honeybee from Super Mario Galaxy which I already stated on my vote.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  22:34, 31 January 2016 (EST)
+:Still on the oppose side. Per all reason stated here on the comments and on the opposition why Yoshi's Story's bee should not be separate from here. The only one I support splitting are the honeybee from Super Mario Galaxy which I already stated on my vote.--{{User:LudwigVon/sig}}  22:34, 31 January 2016 (EST)
 Also, Wildgoosespeeder, short articles aren't stubs. Stubs are articles lacking information. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 21:32, 31 January 2016 (EST)
+==Split the Super Mario Galaxy bees from this article==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|11-0}}
+There are two vastly different subjects being covered in the same article. One is a sentient species that often helps Mario and has distinct members, and the other is the real world animal that appears in many forms but is near-consistently an enemy. There are some distinct differences here, and they should be plainly obvious. I still find it ludicrous that [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/archive/0/0c/20161230070940%21SSB4_Beehive_Bees.jpg this] and [https://www.mariowiki.com/images/3/3e/Bee_Artwork_-_Super_Mario_Galaxy.png this] are treated as if they're one and the same. Do you think our readers think the same, and click on this article expecting to see all of these different kinds of Bees? I sincerely doubt it. However, the SMG Honeybees are obviously based on real bees, so it makes sense that they'd be in the same article, just as [[Doogan]]s and [[Nintendog]]s are merged with [[Dog]], and [[Pig]]s and [[Li'l Oink]]s are treated as the same thing, right? Wait a minute, they all have separate articles! Why do these gets lumped together, then?
+For the sake of consistency, ease of access, and sheer logic, I want to split them.
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Time Turner}}<br>
+'''Deadline''': August 24, 2017, 23:59 GMT
+===Split===
+#{{User|Time Turner}} Per my proposal.
+#{{User|Alex95}} [[Honeybee]] is the official name for the ''Super Mario Galaxy'' bees.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
+#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per all.
+#{{User|Supermariofan67}} Per all.
+#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per all.
+#{{User|MarioComix}} Per all.
+#{{User|Baby Luigi}} Per all.
+#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all.
+#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per General Subject guidelines, and all.
+===Don't split===
+===Comments===
+The name [[Honeybee]] is official as per the very top comment of this page, so the way I see it, this proposal isn't needed. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:26, 10 August 2017 (EDT)
+:There's the proposal up above which voted not to split them. {{User:Time Turner/sig}} 19:29, 10 August 2017 (EDT)
+::Figured since Honeybee is the official name, a proposal isn't needed, but I'll vote to overturn the previous proposal. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 19:31, 10 August 2017 (EDT)
+== Split Yoshi's Story Bee: Attempt 2 ==
+{{SettledTPP}}
+{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-2|split}}
+There was an attempt to split Yoshi's Story bees. First of all, they have a non-generic Japanese name. Second, there [[Frog|there]] [[Jellyfish|are]] [[Clam|other]] enemies based off of real world animals, but these have a non-generic Japanese name.
+I may have missed some points, but you'd add more points about it. Anyone has the Sunshine bee Japanese name? The Yoshi's Story bees being merged here seems pretty bzzzzzzzaffling to me. It' for the big ones.
+<br>'''Proposer:'''{{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br>
+'''Deadline:'''February, 1, 2019, 23:59 GMT
+===Support===
+#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
+#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
+#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} It's as cleared up as it's gonna get, so let's split both large and small into one article.
+#{{User|7feetunder}} All of the ''YS'' enemies with generic names in English have non-generic Japanese names. They were never meant to be generic at all. There is no reason we should be giving more authority to the people who call Gnawties "Beavers" and Neckies "Buzzards." We might as well merge [[Bat (Super Mario Galaxy)]] with [[Bat (Luigi's Mansion: Dark Moon)]] because they're both bats. [[Bee (Wario Land II)]] is split for a reason, this should not be any different.
+#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all, the fact that they have a different non-generic Japanese means that they are intended to be unique non-generic enemies from their original creators.
+===Oppose===
+#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} "But different Japanese names" is still not a convincing reason for me to support splitting. Also, per comments below, this proposal is just going to blanket split everything when it's quite clear that only the big ones probably need to be split if we're going by Japanese names.
+#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Bazooka Mario.
+===Comments===
+I assume you're just referring to the big ones? I'd like to know what the Shogakukan description of them says. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:33, 18 January 2019 (EST)
+:If "Bunbun" also applies to the small ones, then possibly. But i think it only applies to the big ones seeing that their artwork depicts the big one. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:36, 18 January 2019 (EST)
+::Well the small ones are literally white dots that form a hand shape. Hard to depict that efficiently. Anyways, ask LTL about what their entry says. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:06, 18 January 2019 (EST)
+:::He'd take time to answer though, the proposal would have already passed when i'd have asked him. I am patient though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:52, 19 January 2019 (EST)
+::::Anyways, if it only applies to the big ones, i think the Yoshi's Story identifier is redudant IMO. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:10, 19 January 2019 (EST)
+I ''used'' to have the Sunshine Bee Japanese name, as there was a full scan of the shoga on ImGur, but unfortunately, only one pair of enemy pages there is still accessible, and neither one is the one with them on it. They ''have'' a section (with artwork!) though.... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 03:35, 20 January 2019 (EST)
+:I'd likely ask Mister Wu for those. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:16, 20 January 2019 (EST)
+::Done, along with the SM3DW Fuzzy Horde. I don't think it will be Bunbun. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:59, 20 January 2019 (EST)
+:::Description is the small one, but the artwork is for the big one. Let's say both? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 01:28, 21 January 2019 (EST)
+::::Could be just the small ones, given how that'd be pretty much impossible to represent. Desci might actually refer to both. Yes, let's say both. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:37, 21 January 2019 (EST)
+:::::The text is <span class="explain" title="だいぐん">大群</span>でやってくるのが<span class="explain" title="こま">困</span>りもの。うるさい、うるさい。According to LinkTheLefty, it translates to: A swarm in the way is a pest. Pesky, pesky. Although, the big ones don't try to harm Yoshi, he'll get stung if he touches them from the sides. I think there is only one entry for bees. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:13, 21 January 2019 (EST) --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:39, 21 January 2019 (EST)
+::::::I know fully well it says that. The larger ones are still in groups, just smaller groups.
+::::::@Baz How about the "holding Yoshi in place by forming a weird hand shape" thing? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:38, 21 January 2019 (EST)
+:::::::@Bazooka Mario and @TheFlameChomp, it's less "because different name in Japanese" and more because non-generic Japanese name, much like the frogs. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 04:04, 22 January 2019 (EST)
+::::::::To clarify, while sometimes i agree that the Japanese names [[Spear Guy#Names in other languages|are]] [[Relay Heihō#Names in other languages|a]] [[Bouncing Bullet Bill#Names in other languages|moot]] [[Sledge Bro.#Names in other languages|point]], the enemies based off animals in this game don't have a generic Japanese name. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:53, 24 January 2019 (EST)
+:::::::::It is not a good idea to apply blanket changes based on Japanese names. Sometimes, the localizers make a good call too, and our wiki has English readers, not Japanese readers. This whole "Creator's intent" is a substance less argument and just handwaves potential deliberate localization changed and it just doesn't really align with our wiki goals of prioritizing English names. Yeah, the bee will get an identifier, but this is at our expense of the bee article and we also make a small page that might be just an additional step, all over some name being different in a foreign language. Whenever Japanese names should be applicable to splits and merges has always been case by case; that Bee from Wario Land gets a split for unique gameplay function, being a transformation. This, this is just a generic bee in the end. This proposal hasn't made a single argument for splitting beyond different Japanese names, but in my experience, this went against precedent, and so that's why I oppose. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 14:16, 24 January 2019 (EST)
+::::::::::Admittedly, originally, the wiki relied on localizer's intent, but was later then changed to the creator's intent. You are allowed to vote what seems to be the most appropriate option for you though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 02:40, 25 January 2019 (EST)
+[https://www.mariowiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:FanOfYoshi&curid=258892&diff=2590117&oldid=2589697 Update on this situation]; it should indeed only bee the large buns that should buzz off. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:18, 26 January 2019 (EST)
+:This raises an important question: Does the English name refer to both bees or just the small ones? It comes from a Prima guide, and only one page is cited. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:59, 26 January 2019 (EST)
+::Then the small ones are generic, and shouldn't be split. I kinda feel the "Yoshi's Story" identifier is redudant, as there are 2 different types of bees in this game. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 05:36, 27 January 2019 (EST)
+== The "Comparable" Species Section ==
+I'm curious as to why all those "comparable" species on the page are only comparable. This page is about the real-world species, right? And if all those comparable species are varieties of bees, then how are they just "comparable" if they are derived from the real-world species? And, another question, how is the ''Yoshi's Story'' [[Bumblebee]] the only variant of the real-world species, if it's the same exact case as all the other "comparable" species? [[User:Somethingone|Somethingone]] ([[User talk:Somethingone|talk]]) 12:42, June 2, 2022 (EDT)
+:Probably a relic of when that was "related." It should probably be changed to "relatives." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:50, June 2, 2022 (EDT)