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== Merge to Toady == | == Merge to Toady == | ||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|1-1-0-5-2-0|Merge to Toady and split Kamek's Toadies}} | |||
So, during my Bubble Dayzee proposal, i saw LinkTheLefty mention it, so decided to make a proposal about this while i'm at it. The fact that both were merged together bothered me for a while, now. They should have either have been split, or merged to Toady altogether in the first place. I know about the feet thing, but that's neither an indication of them being the same or different subspecies at all. Or neither that they're separate from the normal Toadies. As i realised Doc von Schmeltwick was right about the fact that the large Raven in Yoshi's New Island was presumably a reference to/being Raphael the Raven himself, i think merging it could work. However, i'm kinda on the fence with Kamekku no Teshita, but that's a story for another day. Or is it?<br> | |||
'''Proposer:''' {{User|FanOfYoshi}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline:''' November 16, 2021, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Split Solo and Green Toady=== | |||
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per koopa | |||
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Went ahead and changed ship.</s> | |||
===Merge to Toady altogether=== | ===Merge to Toady altogether=== | ||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} | #{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal. | ||
===Split along with Kamek's Toadies=== | |||
===Merge to Toady and split Kamek's Toadies=== | |||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} As ''Touch & Go'' shows, the purple ones are hardly obligately "solo," as they travel in ''utterly massive'' groups in that game. "Kamek's Toadies" seem to be a recurring group with a distinct name in English and Japanese (Kamek no Teshita), but the color seems to be an inconsistently functioning green-red Troopa-type thing. | |||
#{{user|LinkTheLefty}} I'll be blunt: the main article is currently an unorganized mess that begged for a long-overdue restructure. Right now, "Toady" is an overall nebulous non-subject. Is it about Toady the species/enemy, or Kamek's Toadies the notable group? There is an obvious parent/member difference, but it presently lacks focus, and unlike Koopa (species), there honestly isn't really any good reason for such generalization. Green Toady merged with not-always Solo Toady, I think, we've agreed is basically a done deal as a color variant, yes? Then all this is doing is trading a poor, directionless article for ones of clearly better substance. And to the opposition, I kindly ask: what's the plan after keeping things as is (with such considerate rationale as, I quote, "Nope.")? Surely you must have some other idea in mind if you truly believe this is not the optimal solution here, because if not, doing nothing is not at all very condusive to the wiki in my estimation. | |||
#{{user|Blinker}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per the sources presented and Doc's clarification in the comments. I will kindly request, though, that any rebuttals made in future discussions be more civil. | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Second option, per all, mostly LinkTheLefty. Was at first on the fence with Kamek's Toadies, and thought i'll warrant another discussion, but i think it's fine adress them now. | |||
===Keep as is=== | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Same reasons for opposing the Bubble Dayzee merge apply. | |||
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} 2nd best option i think per wt | |||
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Nope.</s> | |||
===Just split Kamek's Toadies=== | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
Why is there no option to leave the page as-is? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:34, November 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:Oh, sorry, i forgot. Gonna put it right now. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:35, November 2, 2021 (EDT) | |||
@LinkTheLefty:<br>"''Is it about Toady the species/enemy, or Kamek's Toadies the notable group? There is an obvious parent/member difference, [...]''"<br>It seems clear to me that Kamek's Toads are an assembly of generic, red-clad Toadies. As it stands, no other red Toadies are present in the game as solo enemies, so it's only sensible to have said assembly described on the main Toady page. The Solo Toadies and Green Toadies are some sort of vigilantes that strike you independent of any of Kamek's goons--they're "species" derivative of the red Toadies, and pretending they are the same enemy essentially means ignoring different traits that factor into gameplay.<br>Also, it would be better if you kept comments within boundaries of courtesy. The irrascible tone does not do you or anyone else any service. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:52, November 3, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:So let me see if I understand this take correctly: Kamek's Toadies—which, [[#Comments|as well-established]], even had physical differences from the other types of Toady in the same game—are better off being loosely defined/covered in the main article, because they, contrary to what Japanese (read: most) sources have to say on the matter, represent the "base" form of Toady, meaning that in fact the Solo/Green Toady is derived from a generic, imaginary "parent" that only appears in this game as...{{wp|Circular reasoning|Kamek's Toadies}}. And somehow, this is superior to the way the wiki has handled every other similar article...how, exactly? <small>Also, forgive me if that quick "Nope." rubs me the wrong way, but come on man, it takes more effort to type that than a simple "per" acknowledgment.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:10, November 3, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::Kamek's Toadies are the "base" Toadies. Solo and Green Toadies are derived from them. That is my reasoning. Regardless of how loosely one feels the concept is being described on the Toady article, the thing I'm getting at is that Solo and Green Toadies are different enough from each other that they shouldn't be lumped together in the same page, and most definitely do not need to be arbitrarily decided by Mario Wiki intelligentsia as being the base Toadies when no sources claim such thing. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 03:45, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::You've just restated yourself while utterly side-stepping the issues I've pointed out with writing of the article. All right then, allow me to break it down further. No ''official'' source claims that Solo Toady and Green Toady are color variants while Kamek's Toadies are a distinct entity? [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P15.png|That's]] [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P16.png|untrue]]. [[:File:CTY Shogakukan P13.jpg|Here]] is another example of them being treated as color variants, something that the wiki historically does not split without very strong reasoning (totally absent here) - note the orange and grey Tap-Taps on the same exact page, which I can guarantee are never getting separate articles. Heck, it's visible right there in the English name provided by the SNES Player's Guide: '''''Green'' Toady''' (your spontaneous "vigilantes independent of Kamek" claim being, by the way, [[:File:SMW2 Guide 127.jpg|wild fanfiction]]). Let's not lie to ourselves here. And again, sorry, the current article is just plain bad writing and someone has to tell it how it is for it to get anywhere (and no, this is not something that's being "arbitrarily decided by Mario Wiki intelligentsia" [no comment], but the wiki's own [[MarioWiki:Good writing|fact-based standards]]). Kamek's Toadies are merged to the main Toady article for the sole sake of Solo/Green Toady being their own, while at the same time they are recurring and, yes, ''notable'' members of their species. The main article muddies the waters such that Kamek's Toadies are not characters in their own right, yet it also covers (solo) Toadies that appear later in the franchise, despite the similar Kamek Krew getting their own article. In practically every other case would the regular enemy be the main article that the wiki would accept as the "base" example of the standard species and unique characters be derived separately. Why, precisely, does Toady have to be different? I'm still not getting a solid answer, so I have no choice but to take it that the opposition has none. Instead, I have to remind them that this situation is more complicated than the Bubble Dayzee proposal they came from and has more at stake. Fortunately, there happens to be an easy fix for this right in front of everyone. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:25, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::<blockquote>”''your spontaneous "vigilantes independent of Kamek" claim being, by the way, [[:File:SMW2 Guide 127.jpg|wild fanfiction]]''”</blockquote> | |||
::::Thought we decided not to put much stock into what that book says—why did the narrative suddenly take a turn? Regardless, “vigilante” is just a frivolous, amusing word I chose to frame their singularity as an enemy. I did not think the connotations of such word would seriously factor into my argument. | |||
::::<blockquote>''Why, precisely, does Toady have to be different? I'm still not getting a solid answer, so I have no choice but to take it that the opposition has none''</blockquote> | |||
::::I did give you an answer, but I suppose it either wasn’t ample or clear enough. Kamek’s Toadies ''are'' base Toadies, who all happen to be in a group and act in congruence. To wit, the base “enemy” is a collective entity that kidnaps Baby Mario once the timer reacher zero. Some of these red-robed Toadies appear on their own in later spin-offs. The other, differently-coloured Toadies that appear in the Yoshi’s Island game are visibly disparate things derivative of the base entity. | |||
::::<blockquote>''No ''official'' source claims that Solo Toady and Green Toady are color variants while Kamek's Toadies are a distinct entity? [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P15.png|That's]] [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P16.png|untrue]]''</blockquote> | |||
::::They are very obviously indexed separately in those pages you laid down and I have zero idea as to how you were informed of the contrary. The former page shows a red Toady, simply called “Kamek” (indicating a base/vanilla species), who (as Google Translate would reveal) is explicitly described in its adjacent bio as part of the larger assembly of red Toadies that shows up from off-screen to kidnap Baby Mario; the latter page, on the other hand, shows a green Toady and describes it as an enemy that functions on its own, implying a detachment from the aforementioned “Kamek” Toady. Admittedly, this guide does not appear to make a distinction between the green and purple Toadies, instead seemingly covering them both as “little Kameks”, but: | |||
::::<blockquote>''[[:File:CTY Shogakukan P13.jpg|Here]]''</blockquote> | |||
::::there is an actual distinction being made. I don’t think these two guides rebut, in any way, what I or the quoted English guide have stated on the matter. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:52, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::It's not just called "Kamek" in that page. It's ''Kamek no Teshita''. "Kamek's Toadies." Solo/Green Toadies are ''Kokamek'' ("Small Kamek,") which is what red Toadies are called in games outside of the ''Yoshi's Island'' series, like the ''Mario Party'' series. Meaning they are the same subject according to the games' respective original development teams. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:31, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::::So there has been a consistent vision as to how generic Toadies are identified across games... That does change things up quite a bit, so I guess I'm moving my vote. Regardless, not sure why Google Translate found it appropriate to adapt the Japanese writing for "Kamek no Teshita" to "Kamek" on my end. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:04, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::First of all, don't use indentations: there is only so much real estate that the comments can reasonably take up, and it's making it unreasonably harder than it has to be to follow along. Now, in regards to: "''Thought we decided not to put much stock into what that book says—why did the narrative suddenly take a turn?'' - excuse me, but what propels you to convince yourself there is some grand "narrative" against the book? No one has ever denied at any point that it is an officially licensed source - what people have been pointing out is that the SNES-era Nintendo Power guide makes far too many little distinctions that are outright contradicted by other officially licensed sources, sometimes even the GBA-era Nintendo Power guide and later the ''Yoshi's Island DS'' ones (English!), and the wiki as a whole no longer treats every single instance from that solitary source as splitting grounds. "''Regardless, “vigilante” is just a frivolous, amusing word I chose to frame their singularity as an enemy. I did not think the connotations of such word would seriously factor into my argument.''" Look, I would love to believe that if this really was "just a frivolous, amusing word," but the fact that this ''phrased out'' as "''vigilantes that strike you independent of any of Kamek's goons''" (direct quote)? Please refrain from backpedaling. "''I did give you an answer,''" no, you've modified it and given two. Let me explain. You said before that "Kamek's Toads are an assembly of generic, red-clad Toadies" - meaning that you ''do'' see Kamek's Toadies as an "assembly" (ie. notable, recurring group) and that other generic, ''red''-clad member debuted in the same game off-screen. Then later, you've said that Kamek's Toadies ''are'' flat-out the "base" species, when the ''red''-clad solo Toadies that appear in, say, the ''Mario Party'' series aren't always members of the same group. See what the problem is? That literally operates backwards from how the wiki organizes every other species/member subject relationship when it doesn't have to be, and it desperately confuses the identity of the subject of the article. "''The other, differently-coloured Toadies that appear in the Yoshi’s Island game are visibly disparate things derivative of the base entity.''" Again, the wiki ''never'' treated ''characters'' as the parent entity. By ''Yoshi's New Island'', the visual features have been erased so that the only difference is color. I'll reiterate: time and time again, the wiki historically does not split color variants without very strong reasoning. To touch on Solo/Green Toady - they act identically, with the only tangible difference being how they are encountered. Something like that is par for the course for traditionally merged color variants. "''Google Translate''" - I insist that you do ''not''. Apologies, but I seriously lack the time to be cleaning up junior mistranslations left lying around. The former is describing 「カメックの<span class="explain" title="てした">手下</span>」 (''Kamekku no Teshita'', Kamek's minions, ie. Kamek's Toadies) as the four that come to nab the baby when your stars run out, and the latter is describing 「コカメック」 (''Kokammekku'', Little Kamek/Magikoopa, ie. Solo/Green Toady or just plain Toady in other appearances) as the main enemy. Either way, the broom-riding, propeller-less Kamek/Magikoopa is a separate subject, considered a parent of sorts to the latter rather than the former. I'm very sorry about this, but at the moment, I have my books in storage, so these proposals come at a bad time for me. However, my distinct recollection is that every enemy is listed in each level, and the ones that this book treats as color variants are all under the same umbrella. As an example, [[:File:Advance 3 Shogakukan P18.png|Koopa Troopa]] comes in green and red shells, yet they are only represented by one graphic and name. Therefore, the book treats Solo and Green Toadies as one and the same. Take my word for it or not, but I'm not the one looking at [[:File:CTY Shogakukan P13.jpg|this]] and trying to spin it around as anything other than what is ultimately labeled as a (parenthetical) color variant. <small>I'm sorry if by chance this got outdated in the time I typed this all out but I just got edit-conflicted and I'm in too much of a rush to read what happened, no hard feelings I just have other stuff going on.</small> [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:16, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::::I know very well what I said regarding that Toady assembly, and I sense you are too wound up in semantics to properly decipher my intention with those statements. My claim before Doc's above clarification was that the Toady quartet, in and of themselves, are a template, or a root "species", for the other Toady enemies found in the game. Calling them a "base species", while somewhat of a misnomer in the context of our wiki, was merely an attempt at evoking a group of enemies that overlapped 1:1 with the concept of Kamek's Toadies, but excluded Solo/Green Toadies. This claim of mine has since been proven unfounded once Doc essentially pointed out that Google Translate's interpretation of what I construed as base Toadies from that Japanese guide ("Kamek") was incorrect (being, in fact, explicitly "Kamek's Toadies"). Seeing as how I've been educated on this misinterpretation and that I duly changed my vote in consequence, I don't think there is a point in this discussion continuing further. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 11:46, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::::EDIT: "''{{'}}''Google Translate''{{'}} - I insist that you do ''not''. Apologies, but I seriously lack the time to be cleaning up '''junior mistranslations''' left lying around.''" That is just ''rich'' of you to comment, considering you, as someone who reputably knows Japanese, made no effort to explain these sources but rather left me to my own devices to research the names and bios presented therein. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 12:02, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::::Cut him some slack, he's in the middle of moving and as such lacks much time and doesn't have his guides handy. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 13:43, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::::::I understand it's difficult to keep oneself composed at such junctures, and I wish him good omen in accommodating to the new place. My gripe is that I found that particular choice of words insensitive, which is unwarranted regardless of what may occur to one's life in parallel. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 13:53, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::I said before that I didn't have a lot of time to proofread my earlier comments. It frankly slipped my mind since I've had those scans on the wiki for quite a while and thought I had openly established their use. I wasn't expecting others to try to re-decipher them, so when you subsequently came back with something else, I misconstrued what you were trying to do. I abhor misinformation, and sure, I'm aware that these things are small, but my attitude is that small things in all forms can snowball. You could've simply stopped and asked if you weren't sure of what I was presenting. Still, I was being thoughtless. I don't know if this will make up for the undue stress, but let me give you a pointer. Gogol Translate is sometimes okay for real-world Japanese words now and then if you lack a good dictionary, but it usually tends to break characters and syntax, and most other times it's just plain wrong. In my experience, it's much more trouble than it's worth to use, and made-up names and sentences are more often than not rendered unreliably. It's basically a beginner's trap; people have literally written books on it for humor (which supposedly helps improve it over time, but that seems miniscule at best). If you need to use a machine translator, my recommendation is the newer DeepL machine translator that I found out about recently. It's not perfect either - you should never fully trust a machine to translate for you since the tech isn't there yet - but I find that its Japanese language support is way more mature, and it made my life a little easier a handful of times already. Anyway, I think the other part about letting things go is the note to end things on. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:26, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::Good mates, this is a children's character. No need to get so petty, heated and childish about what is ultimately the decision to merge or keep split a fan page of a singular character from children's games. It does not matter in the slightest, nor is it remotely important, so I would advise you to calm down and reexamine why you reacted in such a manner. If you mates continue to have attitudes so intense over something so petty, then take them somewheres else. You are going closer and closer to violating courtesy. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:00, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
This is, of course, not a specific advisory. In general, all users here should understand the relative unimportance of what we do here. Relax, calm down, do not bring unnecessary intensity. Such intensity and anger not only damper the site but risk violating courtesy. Just watch what you say before you post it. {{User:Doomhiker/sig}} 16:20, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
::::::::::While I can’t speak for LinkTheLefty, I must express that I take umbrage at your statement. I disagree that our discussion has been “childish” or “petty”; unless you take the somewhat sarcastic usage of “Mario Wiki intelligentsia” to be some kind of childish retort (the phrase being moreso derived out genuine awareness of my discussion partners’ aptitutes and intended to point out what I previously mistook as an otherwise small lapse in their judgement), you will be hard-pressed to find any directed oaths in my discourse. In fact, I advocated for civil discourse through and through. Your attempt to belittle the scope of our discussion as “not even remotely important” also feels demeaning and runs counter to the wiki’s inherent mission. (NOTE: This was written before you wrote the addendum, which I agree with in general terms.) {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:33, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:::::::::::I've notified Doomhiker to be less abrasive and to keep it professional when addressing this dispute on the Discord staff channel but yeah, please don't continue the dispute (you may continue with the debate of your stance of course, for clarification). We'll step in again if it is necessary to do so, such as if we continue to see sarcastic remarks and ad hominems being directed at each other. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:29, November 4, 2021 (EDT) | |||