The 'Shroom:Issue LI/Poll Chairperson Election/Debate
[2011-07-11 21:41:22] <SMB> But anyway, let's start. There are certain rules:
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[2011-07-11 21:42:57] <SMB> 1.) The chat will be muted. Those who have questions will query the moderator (me) to be voiced, and I will voice those in order that have questions.
[2011-07-11 21:43:11] <tb> spam and you cant see it
[2011-07-11 21:43:19] <tb> no jk people
[2011-07-11 21:43:35] <SMB> 2.) You can direct your question to Plumber, me, or both candidates.
[2011-07-11 21:44:22] <SMB> 3.) If the question is directed at both, then both candidates can directly answer, as well as make rebuttals once one candidate is done answering.
[2011-07-11 21:44:58] <SMB> (In example, if Plumber answers, I can make a rebuttal against his points after. After that, I can answer and Plumber can make rebuttals to my points. We then move on to the next question).
[2011-07-11 21:45:32] <SMB> The order of answering a question directed at both candidates will be determined between Plumber and me.
[2011-07-11 21:45:43] <SMB> Now we begin.
[2011-07-11 21:45:50] =-= Mode #mwshroom +m by SMB
[2011-07-11 21:45:55] =-= Mode #mwshroom +o Plumber|Debate by SMB
[2011-07-11 21:45:55] =-= Mode #mwshroom -o Plumber|Debate by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:45:58] <SMB> ...
[2011-07-11 21:46:04] <SMB> `op Plumber|Debate
[2011-07-11 21:46:05] =-= Mode #mwshroom +o Plumber|Debate by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:46:09] <SMB> `voice Glowsquid
[2011-07-11 21:46:10] =-= Mode #mwshroom +v Glowsquid by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:46:38] <SMB> Glowsquid is up with his question: "Plumber, how do you plan on reforming the polls, exactly?"
[2011-07-11 21:46:50] <SMB> Plumber, there is no set time for you to answer the question.
[2011-07-11 21:47:28] <Plumber|Debate> Well for one thing
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[2011-07-11 21:47:38] =-= ChanServ has changed the topic to ``The debate will start soon. Plumber is on his way.''
[2011-07-11 21:47:42] <Plumber|Debate> D:<
[2011-07-11 21:47:52] =-= Mode #mwshroom -t by Plumber|Debate
[2011-07-11 21:47:55] =-= Plumber|Debate has changed the topic to ``The Debate is Undereway. Winning!''
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[2011-07-11 21:48:01] =-= Mode #mwshroom -o ChanServ by Plumber|Debate
[2011-07-11 21:48:02] =-= Mode #mwshroom +o ChanServ by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:48:07] <Plumber|Debate> D:<
[2011-07-11 21:48:08] <SMB> `topic The debate is Undereway. Winning!
[2011-07-11 21:48:09] =-= ChanServ has changed the topic to ``The debate is Undereway. Winning!''
[2011-07-11 21:48:11] <SMB> :P
[2011-07-11 21:48:12] <Plumber|Debate> :)
[2011-07-11 21:48:44] <Plumber|Debate> ` topic The debate is underway. Winning!
[2011-07-11 21:48:48] <Plumber|Debate> o:
[2011-07-11 21:48:53] <Plumber|Debate> Anyways,
[2011-07-11 21:49:45] <Plumber|Debate> I think there should be more than one poll
[2011-07-11 21:50:07] <Plumber|Debate> Recently on Fantendo I added the scrolling feature so people could scroll down from a poll.
[2011-07-11 21:50:23] <Plumber|Debate> Also, I think polls should be conducted to decide what kind of polls people want :P
[2011-07-11 21:50:50] <Plumber|Debate> For example, there should be general categories people would most interested in polling: "Recent News, Games, Characters, Wiki Stuff, etc."
[2011-07-11 21:51:21] <Plumber|Debate> The more popular categories can get multiple polls near the top
[2011-07-11 21:51:29] <Plumber|Debate> *multiple poll questions
[2011-07-11 21:51:40] <Plumber|Debate> And the more unpopular ones most likely get less
[2011-07-11 21:51:49] <Plumber|Debate> That's a good start I think.
[2011-07-11 21:51:57] <Plumber|Debate> Oh, and
[2011-07-11 21:52:26] <Plumber|Debate> I think anyone should be able to suggest a poll question
[2011-07-11 21:52:47] <Plumber|Debate> Not on the forum, but on a talk page or something.
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[2011-07-11 21:53:29] <Glowsquid> will the Poll comitee still exist then
[2011-07-11 21:53:42] <SMB> Alright Glowsquid, do you have any follow-up questions for Plumber (based on the points he stated)? If not, I- oh okay. :P
[2011-07-11 21:53:44] <Glowsquid> as some sort of filter for suggestions or w/e
[2011-07-11 21:53:55] =-= Mode #mwshroom +o Plumber|Debate by SMB
[2011-07-11 21:53:56] =-= Mode #mwshroom -o Plumber|Debate by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:54:02] <SMB> `op Plumber|Debate
[2011-07-11 21:54:03] =-= Mode #mwshroom +o Plumber|Debate by ChanServ
[2011-07-11 21:55:28] <Plumber|Debate> Yes
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[2011-07-11 21:56:06] <Plumber|Debate> But it might take on a slightly different role than now.
[2011-07-11 21:56:42] <SMB> Glowsquid, if you have any follow-up questions, go ahead. If not, I have some rebuttal points.
[2011-07-11 21:57:14] <Glowsquid> nah. gtg soon anyway.
[2011-07-11 21:57:39] <SMB> Alright. In that case, here we go:
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[2011-07-11 21:59:21] <SMB> Firstly, you suggested that we should have multiple polls. But does it prove to be effective? How would we archive multiple polls without making the archives look... awful (for lack of a better word)? I think taking it one every two weeks has worked perfectly and there is honestly no need to change it.
[2011-07-11 21:59:29] <SMB> Also,
[2011-07-11 22:00:37] <SMB> It seems kind of redundant to have polls asking users which polls they want to see, especially if you suggest allowing users to suggest poll ideas on the talk page.
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[2011-07-11 22:00:55] <SMB> What would this accomplish besides making the process more complex?
[2011-07-11 22:01:48] <Plumber|Debate> Oh, the polls asking users what polls they want will be separated from the rest. Those will be on the forum.
[2011-07-11 22:02:28] <Plumber|Debate> And they're very general. For example: Would you prefer a poll about? "Mario; Wario; e3; Wii; News; MarioWiki; Users; Etc."
[2011-07-11 22:02:51] <Plumber|Debate> And the new polls would be archived by category, like the 'Shroom does it, but more refined.
[2011-07-11 22:03:15] <Plumber|Debate> One archive is just for "Mario" polls, one for "MarioWiki" polls, etc.
[2011-07-11 22:03:36] <Plumber|Debate> MarioWiki polls in particular can provide valuable feedback on changes and such.
[2011-07-11 22:03:42] <Plumber|Debate> *new change
[2011-07-11 22:03:48] <Plumber|Debate> **new changes D:<
[2011-07-11 22:04:31] <Plumber|Debate> I think the polls should be updated once every two weeks, too.
[2011-07-11 22:06:05] <SMB> Alright, I understand your point on running that separate poll on the forum and how you would archive the polls.
[2011-07-11 22:06:36] <Plumber|Debate> Good.
[2011-07-11 22:06:48] <Plumber|Debate> :)
[2011-07-11 22:07:07] <SMB> I must move on to our next question, posed by Ralphfan to you, Plumber:
[2011-07-11 22:07:23] <SMB> "If elected, would you continue featuring awards polls as SMB did this year?"
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[2011-07-11 22:11:17] <Plumber|Debate> Yep. They're a good idea.
[2011-07-11 22:11:36] <Plumber|Debate> If a majority of the people don't like them though, then they can always have that be put to a poll.
[2011-07-11 22:12:27] <SMB> Alright, now we're moving on to Goomba's Shoe 15, who has a question he'd like to pose for Plumber.
[2011-07-11 22:12:31] =-= Mode #mwshroom +v Goombas_Shoe_15 by SMB
[2011-07-11 22:13:06] <Goombas_Shoe_15> plumber my question is how does your new system differ from the old poll selection commite
[2011-07-11 22:13:22] <Plumber|Debate> My new system is more democratic. It puts more power into the people themselves.
[2011-07-11 22:14:20] <Plumber|Debate> The people will be able to submit any poll question they want on a talk page.
[2011-07-11 22:14:48] <Plumber|Debate> Members of the committee will choose from those questions, and add their own too.
[2011-07-11 22:14:52] <Goombas_Shoe_15> but the old system revolved around people suggesting a poll and than other people voted for it how can your system be more democratic than that
[2011-07-11 22:15:11] <Plumber|Debate> ^
[2011-07-11 22:15:18] <Plumber|Debate> That good for ya?
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[2011-07-11 22:16:18] <SMB> Guess so.
[2011-07-11 22:16:38] <SMB> If anybody has questions, go ahead and query me so that they can be posed!
[2011-07-11 22:16:45] <SMB> I myself have a question for Plumber.
[2011-07-11 22:18:17] <SMB> I would just like to ask you to expound upon your experience in this, please. I understand you have indicated that you have experience on Fantendo with polling software. However, what exactly do you do with those polls?
[2011-07-11 22:18:34] <SMB> How often do you update the polls over there? How long have you been maintaining the polls? Etc.
[2011-07-11 22:21:28] <Plumber|Debate> They're updated weekly
[2011-07-11 22:21:32] <Plumber|Debate> Usually just two a week.
[2011-07-11 22:23:08] <SMB> You didn't answer this, though:
[2011-07-11 22:24:10] <SMB> How long have you been maintaining the polls on Fantendo? I'm semi-active in the Fantendo community myself, so I've seen the polls rotate. However, I really only drop in sporatically to check things and don't know much of the background behind its processes.
[2011-07-11 22:24:59] <Plumber|Debate> Oops didn't see that.
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[2011-07-11 22:29:51] <Plumber|Debate> The other Fantendo admins are a rather independent bunch. They don't like me to micromanage what they do. Nowadays I let them run the poll for the most part.
[2011-07-11 22:31:49] <SMB> I understand you do have seniority with running the polls, though, even if you don't manage them today. About how long (by that, I mean the duration of time that you managed the polls) were you involved with rotating polls and such?
[2011-07-11 22:37:04] <Plumber|Debate> Not very long. That's another thing I was going to bring up: the Poll Chair shouldn't need to update the polls so often.
[2011-07-11 22:37:17] <Plumber|Debate> The Vice Chair could easily do that, or even any member of the committee.
[2011-07-11 22:37:28] <Plumber|Debate> And any member could remind the committee if somehow people had failed to act.
[2011-07-11 22:38:50] <Plumber|Debate> Back when I was 'Shroom Director, there was no such thing as the Sub-Director position. I did almost everything myself, including the ~5 hours it took me to update everything. Since Glowsquid's brilliant addition of the Sub-Director position, I realized that the task of updating things in the real world falls to Chief of Staffs and things, not the Bosses. Why should the online world be different?
[2011-07-11 22:39:11] <Plumber|Debate> The Fantendo admins were more than happy to update the polls on their own.
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[2011-07-11 22:41:07] <Plumber|Debate> Hey s-y
[2011-07-11 22:41:11] <Plumber|Debate> Your question?
[2011-07-11 22:41:19] =-= Mode #mwshroom +v s-y by Plumber|Debate
[2011-07-11 22:41:20] <s-y> i cant talk
[2011-07-11 22:41:27] <Plumber|Debate> YES WE CAN
[2011-07-11 22:41:28] <SMB> I'm sorry, I have another point really quick.
[2011-07-11 22:41:31] <s-y> question for what
[2011-07-11 22:41:32] <Plumber|Debate> Oh ok
[2011-07-11 22:41:34] <SMB> If you don't mind.
[2011-07-11 22:41:54] <s-y> oh yea
[2011-07-11 22:42:37] <SMB> I do not see why it is necessary, or beneficial, to give seven people access to the poll account.
[2011-07-11 22:43:14] <SMB> It would probably become hectic, and not all of the individuals that would be on the committee, I'm sure, have experience with poll software.
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[2011-07-11 22:44:00] <SMB> (Actually, eight individuals)
[2011-07-11 22:44:07] <Plumber|Debate> Well, I think it is the duty of the Poll Chair and Vice Chair to train other members of the Committee to use the software.
[2011-07-11 22:44:40] <SMB> Currently, only three individuals have access to the account: Porplemontage, me, and Stooben. It works perfectly fine, and all of the current members nominate and vote on polls to feature perfectly well.
[2011-07-11 22:44:59] <SMB> How would adding more work to the Chair and Vice-Chair be beneficial?
[2011-07-11 22:45:21] <SMB> If they have to take the time to train five other people how to use the software.
[2011-07-11 22:45:49] <SMB> Not to mention the fact that if a member decides not to mess around with the poll software, then it is wated time and effort.
[2011-07-11 22:45:58] <SMB> (To try to teach them how, anyway).
[2011-07-11 22:46:31] <SMB> Please explain this to me, and how it would be better than the current system.
[2011-07-11 22:47:15] <tfp> is it hard to learn?
[2011-07-11 22:47:38] <tfp> it could be beneficial in the long run
[2011-07-11 22:47:50] <SMB> Not specifically, but still taking the time to teach five people how to use the software would be too time consuming to really be too productive.
[2011-07-11 22:48:01] <tfp> hmm
[2011-07-11 22:48:44] <SMB> At least, in my opinion.
[2011-07-11 22:48:46] <Plumber|Debate> While it might be more work at first, I think it'll pay off. Teach a man to fish is better than giving him one. Then he's set for life.
[2011-07-11 22:49:08] <tfp> yes
[2011-07-11 22:49:13] <Plumber|Debate> What if all three people are unavailable for one day?
[2011-07-11 22:50:00] <Plumber|Debate> I suppose if a member doesn't want to learn the poll software, then time shouldn't be wasted on them though. That is a good point. But if someone doesn't want to do that, I wonder why they were interested on being on the committee in the first place...
[2011-07-11 22:50:24] <SMB> To suggest polls and vote on which ones are quality.
[2011-07-11 22:51:25] <SMB> There are some members of the current committee that make loads of poll suggestions, and they get featured.
[2011-07-11 22:51:49] <SMB> Yet I couldn't imagine them wanting to get involved with the back-end management of the committee and the software.
[2011-07-11 22:52:45] <SMB> I also understand your point on having multiple people to back up the management of the polls.
[2011-07-11 22:52:53] <SMB> But where do you draw the line?
[2011-07-11 22:53:03] <SMB> What if the whole committee was absent for a day?
[2011-07-11 22:53:30] <SMB> Do you give the password and account to even more people?
[2011-07-11 22:53:47] <SMB> Or do you just count on that being totally unreasonable and unlikely to happen?
[2011-07-11 22:55:09] <Plumber|Debate> First point noted. I don't have the advantage of having all of the down-lo of the internal workings of the Poll Committee. I'm running as the outsider, reform candidate, after all.
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[2011-07-11 22:55:29] <Plumber|Debate> Your second point: If the whole committee is absent, then that means that the three people now are absent too right?
[2011-07-11 22:55:49] <Plumber|Debate> What would you do for that situation?
[2011-07-11 22:56:07] <Plumber|Debate> I already have my thoughts down, but I'd like to see your point of view on the subject too.
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[2011-07-11 22:58:15] <SMB> Sorry.
[2011-07-11 22:58:18] <SMB> Basically,
[2011-07-11 22:58:48] <SMB> Stooben and I have run into this problem before. There were times when we have been absent and nobody dealt with the rotation.
[2011-07-11 22:59:05] <SMB> However, it has not proven to impact voting too much, if at all.
[2011-07-11 22:59:32] <SMB> Our records constantly show (if with one or two exceptions) high vote counts.
[2011-07-11 22:59:46] <SMB> Always over 1,000.
[2011-07-11 23:00:00] <Plumber|Debate> Excellent.
[2011-07-11 23:00:09] <SMB> And I'm certain almost usually closer to 3000, 4000, and even 5000.
[2011-07-11 23:00:17] <Plumber|Debate> Wonderful.
[2011-07-11 23:00:26] <Plumber|Debate> Anyways, I wouldn't give out the password to people not on the committee.
[2011-07-11 23:00:40] <Plumber|Debate> Sysops included.
[2011-07-11 23:01:02] <Plumber|Debate> Well, maybe if they really wanted, but I don't see them being very eager for it.
[2011-07-11 23:01:22] <Plumber|Debate> I think the polls are solid enough to withstand a delaying storm or two.
[2011-07-11 23:03:41] <SMB> Alright.
[2011-07-11 23:06:05] <SMB> Okay, I believe I'm done rebutting Plumber's answer from so long ago.
[2011-07-11 23:06:41] <SMB> Anybody have any questions, be sure to query me with a request to ask them!
[2011-07-11 23:08:22] <SMB> Also, just kind of aside from a massive debate (I'm more curious than anything)
[2011-07-11 23:08:40] <SMB> Where will your "side polls" on the forum go? Like, in which board?
[2011-07-11 23:10:25] <Plumber|Debate> General Discussion seems like a good place for it. To ensure it's more active
[2011-07-11 23:10:36] <Plumber|Debate> there will be links directly to the thread on the wiki
[2011-07-11 23:10:39] <Plumber|Debate> *threads
[2011-07-11 23:10:53] <Plumber|Debate> It should probably get it's own subboard in General Discussion, come ta think of it
[2011-07-11 23:11:20] <SMB> Alright.
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[2011-07-11 23:12:35] <SMB> Also, back to a bit more of a formal question, why do you feel making the Poll process more democratic would be more beneficial?
[2011-07-11 23:12:40] <SMB> To expound upon this\
[2011-07-11 23:13:20] <SMB> The polls used to be purely democratically selected; all of the users were able to nominate and vote on which polls they felt should have been run.
[2011-07-11 23:13:50] <SMB> This system was shut down, and it took many, many months to get the current system up.
[2011-07-11 23:14:18] <SMB> The current system being received with open arms from most of the community.
[2011-07-11 23:14:45] <SMB> Wouldn't making it more democratic be bringing it closer to the former, failed system?
[2011-07-11 23:15:31] <Plumber|Debate> No. The old system was very different.
[2011-07-11 23:15:44] <Plumber|Debate> In this new system, the poll committee still can propose and select questions.
[2011-07-11 23:15:55] <Plumber|Debate> It's just that now users can submit their own questions to the committee.
[2011-07-11 23:17:56] <SMB> Alright, understood.
[2011-07-11 23:19:05] <SMB> Well, that's really all I have to ask.
[2011-07-11 23:20:05] <SMB> Actually, one more question.
[2011-07-11 23:20:41] <SMB> Perhaps a pretty generic question, and not really one I feel I'm at liberty to debate.
[2011-07-11 23:20:57] <SMB> But I must pose one of the most important questions, in my opinion:
[2011-07-11 23:21:44] <SMB> Why exactly do we need a reform of this process? I understand that a simple "Why /shouldn't/ we?" can be used.
[2011-07-11 23:21:46] <SMB> However
[2011-07-11 23:22:40] <SMB> I'm not the one that has to clarify. :P You are the one proposing these changes, and I feel there must be a general concept behind your wanting to reform the process.
[2011-07-11 23:22:51] <SMB> I contend that it isn't broken, and doesn't need to be fixed.
[2011-07-11 23:23:06] <SMB> But I'm still interested to hear more about this in general.
[2011-07-11 23:27:30] <Plumber|Debate> Well, I for one believe that there's always room for improvement, anywhere, anytime.
[2011-07-11 23:27:56] <Plumber|Debate> "If it ain't broke don't fix it" always seemed to be like a lack of innovation. And that can lead to staganation in real life.
[2011-07-11 23:28:13] <Plumber|Debate> Of course in a wiki, such things are less likely to happen.
[2011-07-11 23:29:04] <Plumber|Debate> But it's still possible. Under certain periods of the wiki's history, protests and suggestions for improvement were shot down, sometimes harshly.
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[2011-07-11 23:30:09] <Plumber|Debate> For the specific question of the expansion of polling question suffrage...
[2011-07-11 23:30:43] <Plumber|Debate> If more guys're going to contribute poll questions than just the committee...
[2011-07-11 23:30:50] <Plumber|Debate> We're gonna get better and better questions.
[2011-07-11 23:31:07] <Plumber|Debate> If someone goes out of their way to suggest a question, they've probably put at least a little thought into it.
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[2011-07-11 23:31:23] <Plumber|Debate> Mathematically this makes the addition of more good polling questions a certainty.
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[2011-07-11 23:32:42] <SMB> Alright. As I mentioned before, this was more of a question to gain an understanding rather than one to be debated.
[2011-07-11 23:32:52] <SMB> So thank you for expounding upon that.
[2011-07-11 23:33:20] <SMB> If there aren't any other questions, I suppose we should wrap up the debate.
[2011-07-11 23:33:37] <SMB> (Query me questions if you want to ask them!)
[2011-07-11 23:34:02] <SMB> 22 has an important question:
[2011-07-11 23:34:18] <SMB> "what do you think of poochy"
[2011-07-11 23:36:48] <Plumber|Debate> I always worried taht
[2011-07-11 23:36:55] <Plumber|Debate> he would eat a Snufit Ball
[2011-07-11 23:37:00] <Plumber|Debate> with his mouth open like that
[2011-07-11 23:37:08] <Plumber|Debate> and die AGGRESSIVELY
[2011-07-11 23:37:14] <Plumber|Debate> *that
[2011-07-11 23:37:39] <Plumber|Debate> which is why I nurture him with cheese and pie, when Ghost Jam has a surplus of his pie herd
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[2011-07-11 23:39:57] <SMB> Heh. :P Well, I suppose that wraps this debate up, folks! Thanks to all that have participated, and I wish you luck in the election, Plumber.
[2011-07-11 23:40:39] <Plumber|Debate> I will certainly need it! Especially against you. :)
[2011-07-11 23:41:52] <SMB> Thank you! Goodnight, MarioWiki!