Editing Talk:Super Soda

==Fresh Juice==
So this has the same JP name and effect as [[Fresh Juice]], seems pretty clear-cut to me. Likely why they called it "soda" is that in Western countries, canned juice isn't as common as it is in Japan (which if ''Azumanga Daioh'' is anything to go by is fairly common), which isn't a problem in its TTYD redesign. Anyways, I think we should merge these. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:15, October 27, 2019 (EDT)
:The Thousand-Year Door item doesn't cure Tiny, so because of that, I'm a bit hesitant on this one. Fresh Juice is clearly meant to be a replacement, but I can't say it's the same item. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:41, October 27, 2019 (EDT)
::Its Japanese name is literally English for "Fresh Juice" XD [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:47, October 27, 2019 (EDT)
:::I'm aware, but the properties are different. We shouldn't merge things just because the Japanese names between two items are the same alone. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 23:52, October 27, 2019 (EDT)
::::Tiny is such an uncommon ailment it wouldn't surprise me if they just forgot it did that. Heck, I can't remember if enemies ''can'' give Mario that status in TTYD, making curing it irrelevant. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:10, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::Pretty sure the Wizzerds and Magikoopas might be good for that off the top of my head. Not absolutely sure, though. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 01:26, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::::Not Wizzerds, but possibly Magikoopas (their bestiary description says "status ailments"). Hammer Bros. could in the first PM, but not the second. Regardless, precise properties of items change all the time, like how pretty much every consumable cures poison in SPM. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:31, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I'm including all variants, but still might be right there. At the least enemies might end up spawning with a Mini Mr. Mini or something. --{{User:Lord Grammaticus/sig}} 01:41, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
::::::I can't remember if they ever do, actually. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:46, October 28, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::I'd be in favor of a merge. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 15:43, November 3, 2019 (EST)

== Merge to [[Fresh Juice]] ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|no consensus|8-8}}
See above. This has the same basic application and JP name as the Fresh Juice (that literally being "fresh juice"). Canned Juice is more of a "normal" thing in Japan than America, so they probably changed it to soda as a cultural translation. As for the TTYD one, it's obviously ''not'' a soda, so they had to go a different route. The only difference in function is that it doesn't cure shrinking, but I honestly can't remember a time when an enemy shrinks Mario in TTYD (Hammer Bros. have the ability removed, for example).

'''Proposer:''' [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]])<br>
'''Deadline:''' <s>February 26, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 4, 2020, 23:59 GMT Extended to March 11, 2020, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to March 18, 2020 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#[[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) Per above
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per proposal.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} For reference, the English loanword "juice" ''can'' refer to soda in Japanese, but otherwise agreed.
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} Per LinkTheLefty in the comments.
#{{User|Doomhiker}} Per all. To be fair [https://www.minutemaid.com/products/orange-juice/original-orange-juice/ canned juice isn't that uncommon in North America], but the fact that this item had the same Japanese and Chinese name as multiple languages' names for the item in the game's sequel, and the fact both items have similar effects and similar recipes show a large chance of them being the same.
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. Also given the localization of TTYD, this name change is in line with other renames like [[Toad Town|Mushroom Town (or Mushville)]], <s>[[Para-Beetle|Parabuzzy]]</s> and [[Goomba King|Chestnut King]] where an existing English name of the subject from the first game is replaced with a near-literal translation of its Japanese name.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Scrooge200}} This JP name merging has gone too far. This will confuse casual readers and it sounds ridiculous to say that a glass of juice “used to” be known as a can of soda. Different functions, too.
#{{User|TheDarkStar}} - Per Scrooge.
#{{User|Obsessive Mario Fan}} Per both. Fresh Juice seems more like a replacement than a redesign.
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} Per all. The case for a redesign is just too difficult to make in this situation.
#{{User|Chester Alan Arthur}} Per all.
#{{User|Alex95}} - I'm going to stick with my original point. Fresh Juice may be an intended replacement, but there are more differences than just sharing a Japanese name and the shared status cure parameter. It makes more sense to me to keep split than to merge. Enemies can spawn with a Mini Mr. Mini, btw.
#{{User|MikhailMCraft}} - Per all.
#{{User|Sdman213}} - Per all.

===Comments===
@Scrooge ...excuse me? Care to explain how this ''sequel'' by the ''same people'' with an item with the '''''same''' function'' (as enemy-caused shrinking isn't in TTYD in any amount relevant enough to list on the description for such a common item, if at all) '''and''' name in the ''language of origin '''by''''' the aforementioned same people could ''possibly'' be a coincidence? Also, like LTL said, "Juice" is a loanword slang for Soda in Japanese anyways. If you're going to oppose, give points that haven't already been debunked please. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:08, February 19, 2020 (EST)

@Opposition Again....it's ''literally called'' "Fresh Juice," in English, in both games by the creators. If anything, "Super Soda" was the replacement, but in-name-only. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:24, February 20, 2020 (EST)
:Where exactly is it called "Fresh Juice" in the English localization? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 21:21, February 20, 2020 (EST)
::I did not say "English localization." I said "in English by the creators." The Japanese name is "fresh juice," as in, literally, the ''English'' words "fresh" and "juice." ''By the same people on the same team that made both games''. That is not just proof enough, that is ''100% definitive'' proof. There is literally no question to be had here. Why would they give two ''different'' items the same name, same basic function, and same basic lengthy list of ingredients to make it? Plenty of items went through large redesigns between the two games, such as [[Mystery Box (item)|Mystery]], [[Mistake]], and [[Jammin' Jelly]], among others, so the different appearance is irrelevant as well. This is just an inconsistent localization stemming from the second iteration clearly not being a soda as they initially ''localized'' (not created) it. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:49, February 21, 2020 (EST)
::''Going off this'', look at that list of ingredient combinations here. Note how many of them make ''no sense at all'' as ingredients for soda, but make ''perfect'' sense as ingredients for juice. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:18, February 22, 2020 (EST)
:::I'll also add that I'm fairly certain returning recipes don't change major ingredients between games (the main exceptions being substitute items that don't exist in all three games, like the Egg, Mystic Egg, and Big Egg). Canned fruit juice is uncommon to western audiences but recognizable enough as a more "exotic" drink, so I'd honestly consider Super Soda to be a mistranslation altogether rather than an intended cultural one since the localizer probably thought it was meant to be a juice in the general sense given the English loanword "juice" can refer to soda, energy drinks, and I think even other dissimilar beverages in Japan. If curing the Shrink/Tiny status effect is the point of contention, it really shouldn't be because it was not only made much less common (I forgot enemies can even inflict it in this game), but it was also rebalanced to be less severe entirely, making an entire space in your inventory for a restorative item less practical when there are better items you can hold instead. By changing the graphic and little else in the sequel (which, as mentioned, isn't a problem for several other items), the developers are clarifying what kind of juice it is to their primary audience. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 07:11, February 22, 2020 (EST)

@Alex95: Quite a few items cure poison in SPM but not earlier games, yet that doesn't make them separate items. What makes one status ailment more noteworthy than another? {{User:Niiue/sig}} 16:39, March 2, 2020 (EST)
:<s>I like keeping subjects that are different, even slightly, separated from each other. Probably just a personal preference, but it makes things easier for me and possibly others.</s>
:That's actually an incredibly broad statement that can immediately come back to bite me in the butt, so never mind on that. I just think they should stay separated, simple enough. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 16:41, March 2, 2020 (EST)
::Why, though? What merit does that have other than violating once and only once for something that has 1.3 differences and 4 similarities? Again, I must make it perfectly clear these games were made by the same people within just a few years of each other. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:51, March 2, 2020 (EST)
:::"24.53% different and 75.47% the same" - This from the same user who opposed [[Talk:Whirly Gate#Merge with Transformation Door|my Whirly Gate merge proposal]] back in the day. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 16:57, March 2, 2020 (EST)
::::No need to bring up old proposals. I realize I have a pretty weak reason, but I'm sticking with it. I never saw them as the same item. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 17:00, March 2, 2020 (EST)
::::Also, those are things from games by ''different'' people that ''don't'' share a name in any language. Those both factor into the percentages. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:20, March 2, 2020 (EST)

== Post merger ==
According to [[User:Luigi 1837|Luigi 1837]], he had this to say about opposing the merger: "''Super Soda and Fresh Juice might have similar functions in both respective games, but there are differences too, so they shouldn't be merged IMO.''"

There you go. I find it nonsense when a user has an opinion to say only to have it removed and acting like they said nothing.😒 I get it, the proposal has finished, but hear them out. {{User:Marino13/sig}} 12:29, May 8, 2023 (EDT)

== Merge to Fresh Juice, again ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|11-5|merge}}
I know this is an old thing that has been proposed and failed, and maybe it's a bad idea to do this so close to the TTYD remake coming out, but I've been putting this off for a while. Sorry.

Below is a table summarizing the similarities and differences between the Paper Mario and TTYD items. It shows the similarities far outweigh the differences. Furthermore, the differences that do exist (namely different name, different visual design depicting two different types of containers, and an effect that while the same when summarized, has differences when expressed as a list of smaller effects) mirror those between the Mystery? and Mystery Box, which are currently merged. I'm not sure if all of this rambling is necessary for the proposal to pass, but better safe than sorry, I guess.

{| style="text-align: center; width: 100%; margin: 0 auto; border-collapse: collapse;" border="1" cellpadding="1" cellspacing="1"
!
!Paper Mario
!Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door
!Notes
|-
|Japanese name
|フレッシュジュース (Fresh Juice)
|フレッシュジュース (Fresh Juice)
|Same name
|-
|English name
|Super Soda
|Fresh Juice
|Different names, TTYD uses Japanese name
|-
|What does it look like?
|[[File:PaperMario_Items_SuperSoda.png|A beverage in a can.]]
|[[File:Fresh_Juice_TTYD.png|A beverage in a glass.]]
|Both are beverages. Different containers.
|-
|Standard selling price from the "List of selling prices" pages
|3 coins
|3 coins
|Same price
|-
|What does it do?
|Restores 5 FP and cures status ailments
|Restores 5 FP and cures status ailments
|rowspan=2|Mostly the same effects
|-
|What status ailments, though?
|Any status ailment that allows Mario to use items, which in this game is only Poison and Tiny.
|I don't know (if anyone does, do tell), but I have a guess. One stage hazard in this game is rushing water that clears most status effects, positive or negative. According to [https://supermariofiles.wordpress.com/2023/02/03/ttyd-stage-hazards/ this], the list is Sleep, Stop, Dizzy, Poison, Confuse, Electric, Burn, Freeze, Charge, and Payback. If we assume the two are using the same standard list of ailments, then that list includes Poison and excludes Tiny, but that wouldn't mean much, as the exact list wouldn't be specific to this item.
|-
|What recipes result in the item? (according to item pages; ignoring recipes with game-specific ingredients; recipes in both lists are bolded)
|'''Honey Syrup'''<br>'''Maple Syrup'''<br>'''Jammin' Jelly'''<br>'''Honey Syrup + Maple Syrup'''<br>'''Honey Syrup + Koopa Leaf'''<br>'''Jammin' Jelly + Koopa Leaf'''<br>'''Coconut + Koopa Leaf'''<br>'''Koopa Leaf + Maple Syrup'''<br>Coconut + Maple Syrup
|'''Honey Syrup'''<br>'''Maple Syrup'''<br>'''Jammin' Jelly'''<br>'''Coconut + Turtley Leaf'''<br>'''Jammin' Jelly + Turtley Leaf'''<br>'''Maple Syrup + Turtley Leaf'''<br>'''Honey Syrup + Maple Syrup'''<br>Honey Syrup + Jammin' Jelly<br>'''Honey Syrup + Turtley Leaf'''
|Mostly the same recipes
|}

Again, I apologize if this is too hasty.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Blinker}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Blinker}} Per proposal.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} I personally think it's ''more'' confusing to have what is called a "Max Mushroom" in English on the [[Ultra Mushroom]] page because of its Japanese name, but we're already doing that, and we should do this.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - dewitt
#{{User|Pseudo}} Per all, this probably should've happened a long time ago.
#{{user|7feetunder}} This is the same deal as [[Fright Mask|Fright Jar]], [[Coco Candy|Coco Pop]], and [[Jelly Candy|Jelly Pop]] - ''TTYD'' completely redesigned several items for some reason, and many of the localized names in the first game couldn't be used because of this. (Note that the candy items that retained their lollipop design [[Fire Pop|weren't]] [[Electro Pop|renamed]].) The only difference here was that it was culturally translated into a different beverage entirely. Regarding "what about the remake?", see my comment below.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} If we have [[Jelly Candy]] and Jelly Pop merged for identical effects/gameplay purpose, we might as well for this one too.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I highly doubt the remake is going to change this anyway.
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per precedents mentioned before and more such as [[Egg Bomb|Egg Bomb/Missile]] which was redesigned not once but twice. If it does end up as being a separate thing in the remake then we can easily just split the page again no issue.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Regardless, at this point, in the likely event that nothing happens to dramatically upend the teatable, you know this option will just result in one less proposal down the road. Let's keep this to a minimum going forward, though. Can we all maybe...put a pin on implementing this right away and consciously wait until the remake's out to be positive and call it a day?
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all - the merge is consistent with other items, and a remake coming out next year having a very small chance of changing this is a bad reason to oppose in my opinion. We don't usually hold off on merges just because they might possibly be invalidated in the future, and if the argument is to avoid unnecessary extra work, surely the best way to do that would be enacting this now so we don't have to inevitably redo this exact proposal later.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Even if the remake replaces Fresh Juice with Super Soda in both design and English name, it wouldn't preclude keeping Fresh Juice split from this article as it's still the same item in function and in its original name--per arguments pro-merge in the previous proposal.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Tails777}} Even with the clear support on the idea, I'm opposing not because I disagree, but because there is still a possibility that the remake could change things. The ''Super Mario RPG'' remake has shown to make a few changes to several names of its content to be more accurate to its Japanese script and that gets me thinking they could possibly do the same here, especially since TTYD is known to have several translation mistakes. There is still a chance that in the remake they could change the Japanese name or change the English name/item in general. No matter how likely or unlikely, I think waiting to see if anything gets changed is a better option.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all, I would like to see if this game's remake will get the same translation treatment as the Super Mario RPG remake before deciding what to do with this.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Should've waited for the remake to actually release beforehand first.
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all, wait till the remake comes out. I initially supported the 1st proposal, but given the circumstances, i changed my mind, at least for now.

<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Per Tails777. The English localisations of TTYD and SMRPG (mostly the latter) are both quite infamous for their reinterpretations of the original Japanese scripts. As the SMRPG remake has already shown to address some of the more glaring differences, there exists a likelihood that the remake of TTYD will act similarly either by accurately translating its concepts from the language of origin, or by finding some sort of middle ground where the concepts themselves will be redesigned to eschew cultural differences (e.g. "Fresh Juice" reverts to the "Super Soda" design and is renamed accordingly in English). In fact, if the transition from "airhead" to "lunkhead" (among others) seen in the remake's trailer is any indication, this process is already happening and we're bound to see a few differences going forward. All bets are off, and acting upon this article immediately, on the basis that the remake "couldn't possibly affect" this state of affairs, is just going off of gut feeling--the nasty, unencyclopedic kind. Let's be more patient and careful about this.</s>

===Comments===
The remake seems very faithful to the original, but I'd have waited on this proposal until the game actually releases. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:33, October 6, 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I can cancel if people find it too hasty, but I hoped it wouldn't be too much of an problem. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 15:41, October 6, 2023 (EDT)
::I don't think it's too hasty. After all, there's no chance the remake will call Fresh Juice "Super Soda" or anything... [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 16:33, October 6, 2023 (EDT)
As an addendum to my vote, I would have supported the proposal had it not been for this portentous remake and I think the counterarguments brought forward in the previous one are rather poor. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:04, October 13, 2023 (EDT)
:<s>I'll refrain for similar reasons, but</s> realistically, I wonder how much would change without some kind of overhaul to the original's recipe system. I know this is touching on a point during the last proposal, but let's say, for ''Super Mario RPG'', Kerokero Cola is renamed to something else. The primary reason it may change is rather obvious, but suppose another reason it may change is because "Cola" (a term used for space constraints and catchy alliteration) is now deemed off limits. Is making it into a different type of drink altogether worth splitting it over? If this proposal passes and the name is changed again, it'll cause more work, but the page still works on the merge level, so I don't think it would strictly require another proposal. The worst case would be if the remake outright reintroduces the Fresh Juice and Super Soda separately. Unlikely, but not impossible. Honestly, though, that scenario may lead to a proposal all on its own. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 20:00, October 13, 2023 (EDT)
::The recently increasing concerns about the remake potentially affecting this do not change my stance at all. Super Soda was already gone by the time the original ''TTYD'' hit shelves. The Japanese version has no reason to pull a Toad's Turnpike and "reconcile with the English name" by changing it to a soda or adding a soda item, since the original English ''TTYD'' never had the soda to begin with. If this were a remake of ''the original Paper Mario'', the game that actually had the soda localization in it, this concern would be more understandable. Even if the remake does change something relating to Fresh Juice, most of the possible outcomes either would not justify re-splitting or would require a second proposal regardless.
::*The Japanese version keeps the original design and name, as there's no reason to change it. The English localization, like the original would have no grounds to call it something else. '''The proposal stands.'''
::*The Japanese version keeps the original name, but reverts to the original ''Paper Mario'' design for whatever reason. However, the more faithful new localization doesn't change the name like the original ''Paper Mario'' did, so it's still Fresh Juice. '''The proposal stands.'''
::*Same as the above, but the English localization calls it a Super Soda again. This is the only outcome that genuinely threatens to potentially undermine this proposal. Even so, this wouldn't outright invalidate it - the argument that the language-of-origin should take priority would still hold water. Besides, given that this is seemingly going to be a more faithful localization - we've already seen TEC's lens is red in all regions like the original Japanese - I'm not expecting it.
::*The Japanese version completely replaces Fresh Juice with Super Soda. Again, they have no reason to do this when the original English ''TTYD'' didn't have Super Soda to begin with. It would do nothing but confuse the Japanese playerbase. Even if they did this, this would force us to decide whether the replacement item should stand alone or the original ''PM'' should be included with it, which '''would require a second proposal anyway.'''
::*The Japanese version includes both Fresh Juice and Super Soda as separate items. Just like the above, the effective creation of a whole other item '''would require a second proposal anyway.'''
::If any soda-related changes occur in the ''TTYD'' remake, it will most likely be the "[[Chuckola Cola (Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door)|Chuckola Cola]]" becoming a soda in all regions to remove an alcoholic beverage from a family-friendly game, or becoming a different drink entirely. Or ''that'' will become Super Soda as a nod to the original ''PM'' localization - another scenario which would open a whole other can of worms regardless of whether this proposal passes. Oh, and on top of all that, there's the whole fact that ''the remake's release is still a ways away from now'' (we don't even have a release date beyond "sometime next year," so it's going to be a while), the proposal is guaranteed to hold until then, and even on the off chance the remake ''does'' justify re-splitting them or something, it's not the end of the world. Take it from a guy who [[Talk:Ankoopa#What to do with this article|made a proposal]], had to [[Talk:Ankoopa# Split Nokottasu from Big Koopa Troopa|make another proposal]] to undo it as soon as the 4-week waiting period was up because of poorly-timed new information, and then it turned out [[Talk:Ankoopa#Name|"Ankoopa" was an official name the whole time]], meaning it was all for nothing. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 22:28, October 13, 2023 (EDT)
@LinkTheLefty: I don't see a reason to hold off on implementing this. As I said, the remake is still a ways away from a release date that isn't even confirmed yet, and implementing this is not going to be some huge project that will take months will multiple users pitching in. It's a simple page merge that's easy to do and undo. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 13:40, October 14, 2023 (EDT)