Editing Talk:Para-Beetle

When you jump on Para-Beetles in NSMB Wii, they play a note. When you complete a scale, you get a 1-up Is that true? Source of info is [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMhgoF4ZvtQ&feature=related this video.] {{user:Not Bugsy/sig|This also happened with their bigger counterparts.}}
:Yes. If you jump on eight Parabeetles without touching the ground, you get a 1-up. {{user:Mario jc/sig}}

==Merge Para-Beetle and Parabuzzy?==
They're very clearly the same creature. I believe we've merged Atomic Boo with The Big Boo and the alternate names for Cheep Cheep and Podoboo throughout the series (some attributed to the RPG's translations), so this shouldn't be an exception. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 00:28, 18 February 2011 (EST)
:The name thing is unfortunate, but unlike the enemies we ''have'' merged, I think there are enough differences between these two species to keep them separated. For one thing, Para-Beetles have no legs, unlike [[Parabuzzy|Parabuzzies]]. On top of the looks, the two species also act quite differently: Para-Beetles are harmless flying platforms, pretty much, whereas Parabuzzies are damage-dealing opponents that loose their wings when jumped on. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 01:11, 18 February 2011 (EST)
::That's true, but remember any enemy can behave differently due to switching from platformer rules to RPG rules. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 10:48, 18 February 2011 (EST)
:::Growing legs is not a mere behavioral difference. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:30, 18 February 2011 (EST)
::::Super Mario RPG's Piranha Plants? Plus appearances have been changed to suit the RPGs as well, such as the Podoboo variants I mentioned and the Hammer Bros. types from Mario & Luigi. Just saying. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 15:36, 18 February 2011 (EST)
:::::Other Piranha Plant species have been seen walking around ([[Ptooie]]) and jumping out of pots ([[Jumping Piranha Plant]]), so their mobility in ''SMRPG'' isn't nearly as much a departure as this legs debate, nor are the slight differences between Podoboo depictions: they're always fireballs. Also, those ''M&L:SS'' [[Boomerang Bro.#Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga|Boomerang Bros.]] (assuming that's what you're talking about) should be split, like how we split the ''Paper Mario''/''PM:TTYD'' and ''Super Paper Mario'' [[Dark Koopa]]s, since [[Dark Koopa (Super Paper Mario)|the ''SPM'' ones]] were totally different. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 00:17, 19 February 2011 (EST)
::::::True, but only very rarely. It's not like we're listing the SMRPG plant on the Ptooie page, though. And the Dark Koopas are split because not only are they clearly different, but it's a mistranslation - the SPM ones should be "Shadow Koopas" like in other languages. But I digress, I guess I can't do anything about the leg argument, though if we're going along those lines then why don't we also separate Koopa Troopa (Bipedal) and Koopa Troopa (Quadripedal) while we're at it for similar reasons? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] 02:19, 21 February 2011 (EST)
:::::::Um what? Obviously we wouldn't put the SMRPG plant on the Ptooie article - that's be completely wrong and against policy, and what you said has ''nothing'' to do with that we're discussing here anyway: I was just saying that it's not unheard of for plants to run around in the ''Mario'' games, and so that difference isn't nearly as significant as the Beetles having or not having legs.
:::::::No, that wasn't one of the reasons at all: when Reversinator first suggested splitting the Dark Koopatrol page (leading to the other splits) he didn't say ''anything'' about the Japanese name and the quality of the translation. Grandy02 only brought up the different Japanese Koopatrol names as an additional argument when Zero777 said they should be merged during the Dark Koopa TPP (which occurred after the Koopatrol and Paratroopa pages were already split), but again, he didn't try and assert anything about there being a mistranslation (he just pointed out that the names are different in other localizations).
:::::::We can't separate them because Nintendo has explicitly stated that they are the same thing: in [[Koopa_Troopa#Super_Smash_Bros._series_Information|the ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' trophy]] it states "''Koopas formerly traveled on four legs, but they've recently been spotted strolling on two.''" - so it's just a behavioural change, not a speciation thing (and you already implied that things behaving differently is perfectly acceptable). Most of the time, Nintendo doesn't bother addressing changes in species that arise over time and between genres, but they did here, so this is pretty significant. Personally, I feel there are four-legged Koopa species, and two-legged Koopa species, but that the early games' quadrupeds have been retconned (I chalk it up to stylistic changes), but that's just me making fan theories and probably reading too much into things, which is why I don't put that thinking in the articles or whatever. This Buzzy Beetle discussion, on the other hand, is ''not'' splitting hairs or needlessly speculating and complicating things: you said so yourself that the leg thing can't be ignored, and even if that wasn't enough reason to split them (although it ''should'' be), the fact that they have different names seals the deal. Usually in these circumstances, we have to go to the Japanese (such as the ''SMS'' [[King Boo#Trivia|King Boo]] thing), but this time, the English version happens to be the more specific name: both are official and correct in a way (everything official ''is'' canon, after all), but the question is which is ''more'' correct, and so, which should we go by? I think it is clear that this time, the translators were correct to give Parabuzzies a different name from their legless forbears, and to not retcon that when they brought the Para-Beetls back in ''NSMB Wii''. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:21, 22 February 2011 (EST)
::::::::In the italian version of Paper Mario 2, Para-Buzzies are called '''Paranelle''' (Para Buzzy Beetles) and in the italian version of prima guide of ''NSMBWii'' the Para-Beetles are called '''Paranelle'''(Para Buzzy Beetles).
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 :::::::No, that wasn't one of the reasons at all: when Reversinator first suggested splitting the Dark Koopatrol page (leading to the other splits) he didn't say ''anything'' about the Japanese name and the quality of the translation. Grandy02 only brought up the different Japanese Koopatrol names as an additional argument when Zero777 said they should be merged during the Dark Koopa TPP (which occurred after the Koopatrol and Paratroopa pages were already split), but again, he didn't try and assert anything about there being a mistranslation (he just pointed out that the names are different in other localizations).
 :::::::We can't separate them because Nintendo has explicitly stated that they are the same thing: in [[Koopa_Troopa#Super_Smash_Bros._series_Information|the ''Super Smash Bros. Brawl'' trophy]] it states "''Koopas formerly traveled on four legs, but they've recently been spotted strolling on two.''" - so it's just a behavioural change, not a speciation thing (and you already implied that things behaving differently is perfectly acceptable). Most of the time, Nintendo doesn't bother addressing changes in species that arise over time and between genres, but they did here, so this is pretty significant. Personally, I feel there are four-legged Koopa species, and two-legged Koopa species, but that the early games' quadrupeds have been retconned (I chalk it up to stylistic changes), but that's just me making fan theories and probably reading too much into things, which is why I don't put that thinking in the articles or whatever. This Buzzy Beetle discussion, on the other hand, is ''not'' splitting hairs or needlessly speculating and complicating things: you said so yourself that the leg thing can't be ignored, and even if that wasn't enough reason to split them (although it ''should'' be), the fact that they have different names seals the deal. Usually in these circumstances, we have to go to the Japanese (such as the ''SMS'' [[King Boo#Trivia|King Boo]] thing), but this time, the English version happens to be the more specific name: both are official and correct in a way (everything official ''is'' canon, after all), but the question is which is ''more'' correct, and so, which should we go by? I think it is clear that this time, the translators were correct to give Parabuzzies a different name from their legless forbears, and to not retcon that when they brought the Para-Beetls back in ''NSMB Wii''. - {{User:Walkazo/sig}} 14:21, 22 February 2011 (EST)
-::::::::In the italian version of Paper Mario 2, Para-Buzzies are called '''Paranelle''' (Para Buzzy Beetles) and in the italian version of prima guide of ''NSMBWii'' the Para-Beetles are called '''Paranelle'''(Para Buzzy Beetles). --{{User:Mikiuz/Sig}} 14:43, 22 February 2011 (EST)
+::::::::In the italian version of Paper Mario 2, Para-Buzzies are called '''Paranelle''' (Para Buzzy Beetles) and in the italian version of prima guide of ''NSMBWii'' the Para-Beetles are called '''Paranelle'''(Para Buzzy Beetles).
-:::::::::Err... to my knowledge, there is no such thing as an Italian Prima guide.--{{User|Knife}} 19:09, 22 February 2011 (EST)
-::::::::::sorry, I made a mistake, I have read "Paranella" in "''Nintendo - La rivista ufficiale''" (a magazine similar to [[Nintendo Power]]) --{{User:Mikiuz/Sig}}
-== Merge? ==
-Yeah, it's that time of year again. Considering the recent Morty Mole/Mega Mole merge, as well as the current Big Boo proposal, I think it'd be a good idea to look at the Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy situation again. Considering that:
-* Para-Beetles and Parabuzzies have the same name in every region ''except'' the United States
-* Both enemies are functionally the same, being winged Buzzy Beetles
-* Enemies in Mario RPGs usually act completely different to their platformer counterparts
-* Mario RPGs are infamous for retranslating enemy names (see: Atomic Boo)
-* Super Mario Maker literally merged the two designs (though the wiki's "Parabuzzies are different because feet" stance led to them only being mentioned on one article, for some reason)
-It makes ''no sense'' to keep these split. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 20:50, 20 July 2017 (EDT)
-:Less than a month after the last proposal ended, we started getting more information about ''Super Mario Maker''. There was definitely burnout at the time, but that split is precisely what led to the current state of the "winged Buzzy Beetle" - it's now sporadically floating around both or neither articles on any given editor's fancy. This is such a frustratingly simple fix, but hindsight is 20/20. The behavior argument no longer holds up in addition to everything else that has already been stated for anyone who cares to read through the Talk Pages, but another thing I want to add is that there is an awful lot of credence to the English translation of ''Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door'' when I find it very difficult to believe that whoever made and allowed [http://legendsoflocalization.com/that-one-time-lakitu-started-throwing-pipes/ this] mistake was totally briefed on all the (then-)obscure classic enemies (or really, even within the previous game in the same series, accounting Goomba King to Chestnut King or Spiked Goomba to Spiky/Spiny Goomba and back to Spiked Goomba). It really is just an anomaly that exists in the English language version - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuQK_-9Opg&t=46s you] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9FkDxeZNPs can] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wykCyoNJ3r8&t=16m26s check] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odT-9YqEwhQ it] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWkQ58b00Vs&t=18m18s all] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvciD22eWHA&t=7m17s out] [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQtX3KU6Wfc&t=8m27s for] [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqTWBWjdmWg&t=15m50s yourself]. The appearance of legs is the last thing left to stand on (no pun intended), but if that's the distinction we're going to make, why not apply similar standards of real-world biology to others like six-legged Spike Tops or Wigglers, or bipedal and quadrupedal Koopa Troopas, etc? All in all, if you think the case and timing is better, go for it. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:40, 21 July 2017 (EDT)
-:These probably should be merged (or at least reorganized), especially given the inconsistency with Super Mario Maker, in that the pixelated Buzzy Beetles and SMB/SMB3 Spike Tops lose their legs upon gaining wings, like Para-Beetle, while the NSMB ones and SMW Spike Tops keep their legs, like a Parabuzzy. Not to mention, having the same Japanese name. The thing is, though, the behavior between Para-Beetles and the Super Paper Mario Parabuzzies is pretty massive, especially given the weaknesses....although since Mega Mole and Morty Mole have been merged, that's not that different. This wiki still treats Biting Bullet Bill as different from Bullseye Bill and Spiny Fish and different from Spiny Cheep Cheep, so there are a few things needing changed...{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} 01:15, 22 July 2017 (CT)
-==Merge Para-Beetle with Parabuzzy==
-{{SettledTPP}}
-{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-0|merge}}
-So, this again. Para-Beetles are clearly meant to be the same thing as Parabuzzies, considering that they're functionally the same (Buzzy Beetles + wings), and have the same name in ''every'' region except the US. Yeah, Parabuzzies lose their wings when jumped on, but the Paper Mario series changed a ''lot'' of enemies to adapt to RPG-style gameplay (see: headbonking Goombas, Bill Blasters that can be destroyed, Koopas that throw their shells at you, etc.). As for the name change, we already know that TTYD had a pretty shoddy localization (see: Killer Pakkun being treated like a normal Piranha Plant, the Goomba King being called the Chestnut King, and the whole "Sky-Blue Pipe" thing).
-At this point, the only thing keeping them split is Parabuzzies' legs being a "significant biological difference", which doesn't make any sense considering that bipedal Koopas and six-legged Spike Tops aren't treated like a different species by the wiki.
-Additionally, Super Mario Maker's winged Buzzy Beetles act like Para-Beetles and look like Parabuzzies. That's a pretty clear attempt at merging the two designs. But thanks to the Para-Beetle/Parabuzzy split, the wiki's documentation of SMM's variety is ''incredibly'' inconsistent. Considering the Mega Mole/Morty Mole merge and the [[Talk:Big Boo#Re-merge Big Boo (Paper Mario) with Big Boo|imminent Atomic Boo/Big Boo merge]], there's really no reason to treat Parabuzzies as anything other than a slightly different design for Para-Beetles.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Niiue}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': August 6, 2017, 23:59 GMT
-===Support===
-#{{User|Niiue}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Baby Luigi}} At this point, Super Mario Maker is pretty much the breaking straw for this debate, as there's now no current strong reason they should be kept currently merged.
-#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Per all. They're even more similar than Mega Mole and Morty Mole, they're a flying thing with an absurdly hard shell, and always have had the same Japanese name.
-#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
-#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Being so similar, I was confused when I wrote some articles for ''[[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS]]''. This is the main reason of support. Per all.
-#{{User|Wildgoosespeeder}} I find the [[Atomic Boo]] and [[Big Boo]] merge a weak argument to support [[Para-Beetle]] and [[Parabuzzy]] merge, I find the [[Mega Mole]] and [[Morty Mole]] split a stronger argument to keep those names merged instead.
-#{{User|Alex95}} Both pages refer to ''Super Mario Maker'', so, uh, yeah. Support.
-#{{User|Ultimate Mr. L}} Per all.
-#{{User|Supermariofan67}} Per all.
-===Oppose===
-===Comments===