Editing Talk:Fishin' Lakitu

==State of this article==
Currently, this article lists off every appearance of a Lakitu with a fishing pole. The problem is, most of these examples are identified simply as "Lakitu." While I think these instances are ''inspired'' by Fishin' Lakitu, I feel that they are simply Lakitus that have fishing poles with which they may or may not fish, not necessarily being the "Fishin' Lakitu" entity. I feel that should only qualify when it is officially distinguished as such. Otherwise...we're pretty much defying official terminology, here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:05, April 7, 2020 (EDT)
:Agreed. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 01:23, April 7, 2020 (EDT)
::I definitely think this article needs trimming, especially after the [[Pirate Guy]] cleanup. {{User:7feetunder/sig}} 20:13, July 22, 2021 (EDT)
:::Sections that come to mind are Super Mario Odyssey and Mario Party. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 21:14, July 22, 2021 (EDT)
::::I'd say literally all of the ''Mario Kart'' and derivative appearances can be nixed. The manual for the SNES game has him saying something like, "Hello, my name's Lakitu." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:40, July 23, 2021 (EDT)

== Super Mario Odyssey ==

This is kind of carrying on from the recent agreement of how to handle Piranha Plant type enemies with what they are named in certain games. In Super Mario Odyssey, the name "Fishin' Lakitu" is not used at all, the game calls it simply "Lakitu". So what I'm saying is should we remove information of Super Mario Odyssey from this article and elaborate on the regular Lakitu article? I'm not sure of any other games where Lakitus with fishing rods are simply called "Lakitus", but the same could go with those. {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}}
:See the above section. It should be that way for ''many'' other games as well. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:41, November 23, 2020 (EST)

== Clean up this page ==
{{SettledTPP}}
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|10-0|clean up}}
See above. The fishing pole has been adopted by normal Lakitus in many games starting with ''Super Mario Kart'', to the point of being pretty much intrinsically linked. To be perfectly honest, the only items on this page should be:
*''Super Mario World''
*''Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island''
*''Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars'' (possibly, in the same manner Bloober Nannies or Para-Bombs appear as field enemies)
*''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' (and returns of that stage cameo)
*''Yoshi's New Island''

Everything else should be merged to the Lakitu page, as that is what they are identified as in those games (such as SMK's manual and SMO's capture list). I'm open to suggestions on what else can stay or go.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
'''Deadline''': September 13, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per proposal.
#{{User|WildWario}} Per proposal, but I think the ''Super Mario Odyssey'' content should be mentioned.
#{{User|Swallow}} Just like how we handle Piranha Plants
#{{User|Somethingone}} As far as I can tell, Fishing Lakitu = Lakitu with fishing pole, but Lakitu with fishing pole =\= Fishing Lakitu. This article thinks both are true and definitely needs a lot of trimming.
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} Let's just make it clear that some normal Lakitus also use fishing poles on the Fishin' Lakitu article.
#{{User|7feetunder}} This is just another Pirate Guy situation. "Fishin' Lakitu carries a fishing rod, so let's ramble on about every time Lakitus have been seen with fishing rods."
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Voting support to say that this has bothered me for years and I'm glad to see the initiative to clean up this article.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all, I was actually planning on proposing this myself.
#{{User|HappyToad}} Per Somethingone & Archivist Toadette. There is definitely a difference between a Fishin' Lakitu and a Lakitu with a fishing pole, but I still think it's important to '''briefly''' mention the latter.

===Oppose===


===Comments===

==(Partial) Undo==
Something significant came up that puts parts of the above into question. My attention was recently called to a video that at one point goes over differences between the [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n3z6GC-p54&t=450s English] and [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6n3z6GC-p54&t=677s Japanese] ''Super Mario Kart'' manuals. At the end of his introduction in the Japanese version, he says that "Fishing Jugem" is his real name. [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/common/pdf/CLV-P-SAAFE.pdf Compare] [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/clvs/manuals/ja/pdf/CLV-P-VAAFJ.pdf further] and you'll see that the reason he says it's his real name is because later instances casually use Jugem/Lakitu to refer to the character. So now we know that the English version either overlooked or simplified the fact that the main ''Super Mario Kart'' Lakitu was supposed to be a Fishin' Lakitu, and at minimum that could be applied to the rest of the ''Mario Kart'' series due to the green-shelled one always having the same role. I'm curious on other thoughts on how much this changes our approach. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:03, July 31, 2022 (EDT)
:I'd say that pretty much seals it for Super Mario Kart at least, then. I'd be fine adding the whole series back, personally. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:10, July 31, 2022 (EDT)
::Agree with Waluigi Time. <small><small><small>(also thank goodness I was sent to the edit conflict page, WT said it much better than I could've)</small></small></small> {{User:Somethingone/sig}} 14:12, July 31, 2022 (EDT)
:::That works for me. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:43, July 31, 2022 (EDT)
::::Okay, so far we more or less agree at least to the extent of the ''Mario Kart'' series. Here's the question: does this require a new proposal to partially overturn the above, or do we think the new info sufficient by itself? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 11:35, August 13, 2022 (EDT)
:::::Odd, we don't have rules about changes in contrast with old proposals. In this case, maybe another proposal could be useful for a simple reason: the referee Lakitu became playable in ''Mario Kart Tour'', so a page for the referee Lakitu could even be a possibility. By the way, in one of the introductions of ''Mario Kart: Double Dash!!'' Lakitu is indeed seen with a Cheep Cheep chewing the semaphore, so that could be used as a further proof for them being a fishin' Lakitu.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 05:14, August 25, 2022 (EDT)

==Move ''Mario Kart'' series information back to this page==
{{TPP}}
Per the above discussion, the Lakitu seen in ''Super Mario Kart'' is officially a Fishin' Lakitu. Moving the information here is pretty much a no-brainer, but we need a proposal to override the last one, so here it is. There's also the option to extend this to the entire ''Mario Kart'' series, or to give the referee their own page, which I've included in the proposal as well.

If the option to include all appearances passes, then Lakitu (Party Time) from ''Mario Kart Tour'' will also be included on this page, since it's directly confirmed that it's the same character as the referee, and is an odd case of a temporarily non-fishing Fishin' Lakitu. This proposal will obviously not affect the red-shelled Lakitu that first appeared in ''Mario Kart 7'', or any other instances of generic Lakitus that may exist.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Deadline''': October 4, 2022, 23:59 GMT

===Include all appearances===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Go fish.
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Lakitu, go fish.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Here fishy fishy! Yummy! (Put 'em in a series section and call it a day)

===Include only Super Mario Kart===

===Create a Lakitu (referee) page instead===
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per Mister Wu above.
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Since we have plenty of games with a referee Lakitu and even a playable referee Lakitu, this is no longer that far-fetched of a possibility.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Mister Wu. By now the referee Lakitu is practically treated as its own character.
#{{user|WildWario}} Per all. It deserves it's own page.

===Oppose===

===Comments===
I think what Mister Wu was getting at was the possibility of giving this Lakitu its own article entirely. Maybe that can be another option? (Also, for future reference, is a new proposal necessary when new info contradicts an old proposal? He was saying that wasn't a hard rule.) [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:55, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
:I could add that, although I'm not sure what title we would use, I don't think there's any official name beyond just "Lakitu" at this point (otherwise we'd probably have a separate article already) so we'd have to go to an identifier. (I don't think we have any set guidelines on that, so I'm not entirely sure, unfortunately.) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:05, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
::Lakitu (referee) could work (I'd support that option). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:17, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
:::Added. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:32, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
:::Lakitu (guide) could also work [https://mobile.twitter.com/mariokarttourEN/status/1344168842902315010 according to the official Twitter account of ''Mario Kart Tour''], but in that game the green-shelled referee Lakitu has a slightly different role.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:36, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 ==Move ''Mario Kart'' series information back to this page==
-{{SettledTPP}}
+{{TPP}}
-{{ProposalOutcome|passed|3-0-8-0|Create a Lakitu (Mario Kart referee) page instead}}
 Per the above discussion, the Lakitu seen in ''Super Mario Kart'' is officially a Fishin' Lakitu. Moving the information here is pretty much a no-brainer, but we need a proposal to override the last one, so here it is. There's also the option to extend this to the entire ''Mario Kart'' series, or to give the referee their own page, which I've included in the proposal as well.
@@ Line 68: / Line 67: @@
 ===Include only Super Mario Kart===
-===Create a Lakitu (Mario Kart referee) page instead===
+===Create a Lakitu (referee) page instead===
 #{{User|Somethingone}} Per Mister Wu above.
 #{{User|Mister Wu}} Since we have plenty of games with a referee Lakitu and even a playable referee Lakitu, this is no longer that far-fetched of a possibility.
 #{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Mister Wu. By now the referee Lakitu is practically treated as its own character.
 #{{user|WildWario}} Per all. It deserves it's own page.
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per all.
-#{{User|Arend}} While technically speaking, [[:File:Lakitu - Mario Kart 8.png|this Lakitu has also done some camera work]], this is by far the most logical solution. It has only been referred to as Fishin' Lakitu in ''Super Mario Kart'', and as just Lakitu ever since, plus Lakitu has taken the role of referee for so many times (even outside of Mario Kart), it might as well have its own page. Per all.
-#{{User|RealStuffMister}} per all.
-#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
 ===Oppose===
@@ Line 86: / Line 81: @@
 :::Added. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 14:32, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
 :::Lakitu (guide) could also work [https://mobile.twitter.com/mariokarttourEN/status/1344168842902315010 according to the official Twitter account of ''Mario Kart Tour''], but in that game the green-shelled referee Lakitu has a slightly different role.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 16:36, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
-I'm not liking the referee suggestion, as Lakitu has played referee roles outside of Mario Kart such as in Mario Party Advance, Mario Golf, Mario Sports Mix, and Mario & Sonic, and they played as umpire in the Mario Baseball games. Are we going to restrict this to just Mario Kart or.... {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 15:02, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
-:The Mario Kart series would only be covered there per the scope of this proposal. If it helps at all, the Mario Kart Lakitu referee has at least had [[:File:MKT Lakitu Artwork.png|a consistent unique design]] with the racing headset. Unfortunately I don't think there's a perfect identifier that won't overlap with other Lakitus. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:15, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
-:''Lakitu (Mario Kart referee)'' might work better? Alternatively, we can just keep ''Lakitu (Mario Kart)'', but it could be confused with the red-shelled Lakitu who has been playable since ''Mario Kart 7''.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 18:10, September 24, 2022 (EDT)
-::That sounds good to me. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:32, September 24, 2022 (EDT)