Editing Talk:Fire Piranha Plant

==Move to [[Fire Piranha]]==
{{SettledTPP}}
<span style="color:red;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">DON'T MOVE 3-8</span>

As with [[Talk:Lava Bubble#Move to Lava Bubble|this]] (where I also shared a comment), "Venus Fire Trap" is not a widely used name for this enemy within the games it is present. As far as I know, this name was used only in the ''SMB3'' manual (I ignore if there is another source material that uses the name) but other than that, recent games, like ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'', and official strategy guides commonly use the name "Fire Pirahna". So in the way Podoboo got renamed to Lava Bubble because of similar issues, Venus Fire Trap should be renamed to Fire Piranha.

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Byllant}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' July 29, 2013, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Byllant}} - Per Proposal.
#{{User|Gonzales Kart Inc.}} Per proposal
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} per all.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Prince Ludwig}} I should say, that's not valid enough to rename this article. Even after ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'', they are still called Venus Fire Traps. If it moves, then [[Venus Ice Trap]] would have to move to [[Frost Piranha]]. When you say Podoboo renamed as Lava Bubble was an issue, it's like you include the Venus Fire Trap in the problem. It doesn't have to change simply because of it.
#{{User|Vommack}} Per Ludwig.
#{{User|A Paragoomba and the Koopa Bros.}} Per All
#{{User|KrazyKoopalings}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per all.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} Per all.
#{{User|Pokebub}} Per Prince Ludwig.
#{{User|Super Elite Army Hammer Bro}} Per all, especially Prince Ludwig. Plus, Venus Fire Trap comes from Nintendo, while Fire Piranha comes from some Prima Guide I read (in which I think is NSMBU.)

===Comments===
There is actually no verification from an offical source about the name "Venus Ice Trap" being official name either, and given the fact the name Venus Fire Trap is not use in modern-day materials, gives me the impression "Venus Ice Trap" is actually a conjeture name, something the article isn't actually verificating in case it is official. About Frost Piranha, well, there has been a long history of similar enemies with different names and from different games, like [[Tanoomba]]s and [[Tail Goomba]]s. Nobody say they were the same, though. Besides, given what I pointed, there's apparently no official name out there for the so-called "Venus Ice Trap" so a distinctive can be used instead. In such case, Ice Piranha (do not confuse it with the Japanese for Frost Piranha "Ice Piranha Plant") would be the fittest name.
:{{User:Byllant/sig}}
:Venus Fire Trap's name doesn't have to be changed. But at some points, ordinary Piranha Plants, also their giant relatives also spit fire. I have a theory... Fire Piranhas are supposedly Venus Fire Traps. But '''Fire Piranha Plant''' seemingly describe every Piranha Plants capable of spitting fireballs, the [[Jumping Piranha Plant]]s spit fireballs, even at some points ordinary Piranha Plants spit fireballs as well. '''Venus Fire Trap''' sounds more like a name specifically for Piranha Plant species who are ''specially'' affiliated with fireballs despite hating them from their [[Mario|usual foe]].--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 11:51, 18 July 2013 (EDT)
::The purpose of making this has nothing with the fact they spit fire or are related to fire, whatsover, is about updating the name because "Venus Fire Trap" is a really cheesy name found only in the SMB3 manual and has not been used in many material since then, you think Venus Fire Trap is a more suitable for a Piranha that shoots '''fire''' than just '''Fire''' Piranha? no offense but this makes me think people in this wiki lacks a lot of common sense. Jumping Piranha Plants spit fire indeed, but is a quality seen only in later levels of SMW, so it's a very insignificant characteristic for them. We can also count its article can make mention of it while describing it is similar to the "Venus Fire Trap" behaviour but no exactly the same. With this stated: they shoot multiple fireballs at loose while retreating back to pipe, while the "Venus Fire Trap" shoots an single fireball toward Mario's direction, gives a glance to him and later retreats to the pipe, or in case they are on solid ground, they wiggle around in their place before shooting the next fireball. We've being updating names in the past, and conjecture titles for related species (that damned "Venus Ice Trap") are not validate reasons for an article to keep an old name that is not seen outside of its orignal source. Pretty much this happened with Podoboo a.k.a. Lava Bubble, it was introduced with the former name, but because of naming conflicts with recent games, game guides and RPG descriptions, the later name ultimately took over. Like your affirmation of other Pirahna Plants that spit fire, there were also multiple lava-based enemies with similarities of Podoboo and that didn't affect the title change. It would be an act of hypocrisy for this to fail, because we would diresgard the fact that for one case, a subject [Podoboo] that was known by a very old name rarely used or mentioned in the media, but a lot more popular among fans than the modern-used name, got abandoned in favour of the barely-known new name, while another subject [Venus Fire Trap], with virtually no differences in the naming question, got the upper hand for the old name just because of indifferences with other similr species, but once again ignoring Podoboo also shared this trait. Seriously, for people who will oppose this anyway, rethink about the situation. Saying "Per all" when only one user is feeding back his opposing reason is quite silly.
:::{{User:Byllant/sig}}
So what if my reason is silly? After all, we're quite used to old titles. Despite that, we're always calling every ''Mario'' stuff by their old titles, even if they were moved to their new names. As long we fans always call a species by its old name and is also still called by its old name by Nintendo, you have believe me. We'll consider it.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 08:42, 19 July 2013 (EDT)
----
{{Quote|...and is also still called by its old name by Nintendo...|Prince Ludwing|2013}}
:OK then, cite me one instance the name "Venus Fire Trap" got used in an official material by Nintendo, as you are saying, aside the SMB3 manual of course.
:{{User:Byllant/sig}}

{{Quote|Some Piranha Plants, the Venus Fire Traps, even shoot fireballs at you!|New Super Mario Bros. Wii Official Prima Guide}}

There are other recent sources out there about the Venus Fire Traps. You know that official sources cost money, right? By the way, it's ''Ludwig''. So, can you cite me a source of the name Fire Piranha/Fire Piranha Plant? Well, putting aside ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'''s.--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 11:12, 20 July 2013 (EDT)

==Move to Fire Piranha Plant==
{{SettledTPP}}
<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">SUPPORT 7-4</span>

It's the official name in the PAL ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' and both the North American and European ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' YouTube videos. Also, (barring "Plant") it had always been the Japanese name, which makes me think "Venus Fire Trap" was just a translation goof like the Koopalings being Bowser's children. The only reason the above proposal failed was because "Venus Fire Trap" was the user-preferred name, but [[MarioWiki:Naming|we go by the newest, most official name]]. And "Fire Piranha Plant" appearing in-game in ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' supersedes "Venus Fire Trap" appearing merely in player's guides and manuals, along with the fact that ''Sticker Star'' is newer than ''Bros. 3''.

'''Proposer''': {{User|YoshiCookie}}<br>
'''Deadline''': August 29, 2013 23:59 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|YoshiCookie}} Per Proposal
#{{User|Yoshi876}} Policy is policy, if Fire Piranha is being used more than it should be moved to that.
#{{User|SuperYoshiBros}} I don't really want to, but the policy says so, and it WAS in NSMBU which was a mainstream game, so yeah.
#{{User|Marshal Dan Troop}} Per proposal in fact this proposal isn't even necessary (imo) because it's policy to name things after the most modern name.
#{{User|Mr.C}} As bland as Fire Piranha is compared to Venus Fire Trap (imo), per all.
#{{User|Icemario11}} Per Proposal & Yoshi876.
#{{User|LuigiTime}} Per Proposal

====Oppose====
#{{User|Prince Ludwig}} Like I said before. This reason why it should change is actually just like that proposal before. And for your information, Venus Fire Trap moving to this name is not compared to how the Koopalings stopped being referred to as Bowser's children but his minions. Per my proposal above and here.
#{{User|Iggy Koopa Jr}} We had this argument before. The fact is, Venus Fire Trap is not Fire Piranha Plant.
#{{User|Randombob-omb4761}} Per Iggy Koopa Jr.
#{{User|Mario7}} It is the official name.

====Comments====
"Fire Piranha Plant" is the '''most commonly used modern name''', per the naming policy. The only time "Venus Fire Trap" was used after ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' was the ''NSMBWii'' Prima guide which is overruled by names used in-game and/or on the official site, like "Fire Piranha Plant". Also, Venus Fire Traps and Fire Piranha Plants are one and the same, just the latter being an updated name. {{User:YoshiCookie/sig}}

'''@Marshal Dan Troop''' Couldn't move it myself b/c of the failed proposal in the past. {{User:YoshiCookie/sig}}

I'm gonna lose this counter proposal too. By the way, I'm actually curious about this. One of you guys said you didn't want to support this and this proposal isn't necessary. You should've apposed this or at least don't do anything. But you guys were saying the same thing as me... And you were right, it wasn't necessary at all. So, what motivated you to do so? You didn't have to, right?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 05:53, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 ==Move to [[Fire Piranha]]==
 {{SettledTPP}}
-{{ProposalOutcome|red|don't move 3-8}}
+<span style="color:red;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">DON'T MOVE 3-8</span>
 As with [[Talk:Lava Bubble#Move to Lava Bubble|this]] (where I also shared a comment), "Venus Fire Trap" is not a widely used name for this enemy within the games it is present. As far as I know, this name was used only in the ''SMB3'' manual (I ignore if there is another source material that uses the name) but other than that, recent games, like ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'', and official strategy guides commonly use the name "Fire Pirahna". So in the way Podoboo got renamed to Lava Bubble because of similar issues, Venus Fire Trap should be renamed to Fire Piranha.
@@ Line 40: / Line 41: @@
 ==Move to Fire Piranha Plant==
 {{SettledTPP}}
-{{ProposalOutcome|green|move 7-4}}
+<span style="color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS;font-size:150%">SUPPORT 7-4</span>
 It's the official name in the PAL ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' and both the North American and European ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' YouTube videos. Also, (barring "Plant") it had always been the Japanese name, which makes me think "Venus Fire Trap" was just a translation goof like the Koopalings being Bowser's children. The only reason the above proposal failed was because "Venus Fire Trap" was the user-preferred name, but [[MarioWiki:Naming|we go by the newest, most official name]]. And "Fire Piranha Plant" appearing in-game in ''Paper Mario: Sticker Star'' supersedes "Venus Fire Trap" appearing merely in player's guides and manuals, along with the fact that ''Sticker Star'' is newer than ''Bros. 3''.
@@ Line 67: / Line 69: @@
 I'm gonna lose this counter proposal too. By the way, I'm actually curious about this. One of you guys said you didn't want to support this and this proposal isn't necessary. You should've apposed this or at least don't do anything. But you guys were saying the same thing as me... And you were right, it wasn't necessary at all. So, what motivated you to do so? You didn't have to, right?--[[User:Prince Ludwig|Prince Ludwig]] ([[User talk:Prince Ludwig|talk]]) 05:53, 28 August 2013 (EDT)
-== Super Mario 64 - Tiny Fire Piranha Plant? ==
-In this Japanese guide, [http://hit930.sakura.ne.jp/hitjapan/book9/P140325214.JPG 「スーパーマリオ64完全クリアガイド」 (''Super Mario 64 Kanzen Clear Guide'')], the Fire Piranha Plant has a different name among the enemy entries - 「チビ島のパックンフラワー」 (''chibi shima/tō no Pakkun Flower'', or "Tiny Island Piranha Plant") [best I can make of the blurry kanji]. Fire Piranha Plants are traditionally normal-sized anyway, and having it among the smaller ''Super Mario 64'' enemies sticks out as there aren't a whole lot of miniature Piranha Plants in the series, so should this be considered separate? The oddity is that, unlike all the other varying-sized enemies of Tiny-Huge Island, the smaller Fire Piranha Plant reappears in Bowser in the Sky. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:41, 5 May 2015 (EDT)
-== Pipe Land King ==
-Are you sure this is a Fire Piranha Plant, and not a normal Piranha Plant? It doesn't spit out fire. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 03:59, 19 February 2019 (EST)
-:It uses a Fire Piranha Plant sprite (regular Piranha Plants can't turn their heads in SMB3), though I'd say it's more likely they just used that sprite so they could put the crown somewhere. [[User:Niiue|Niiue]] ([[User talk:Niiue|talk]]) 05:12, 19 February 2019 (EST)
-::Agreed. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 06:38, 19 February 2019 (EST)
-== Sound Effect ==
-What kind of sound effect is Fire Piranha Plant making in Mario Tennis Aces? It sounds like a gerbil, but I could be wrong.--[[Special:Contributions/70.126.227.39|70.126.227.39]] 15:55, May 6, 2020 (EDT)
-== Captain Toad Treasure Tracker  ==
-it lacks a captain toad treasure treacker section, as they appear in the game, with the same function and appearance as 3D World. {{unsigned|109.203.63.84}}
-:The page isn't protected, you can add it yourself. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 09:42, April 23, 2022 (EDT)
-== Have the Super Mario 3D Land Fire Piranha Plant be a secondary image ==
-{{SettledTPP}}
-{{ProposalOutcome|passed|6-1|Use both}}
-{{species infobox
-|image=[[File:FirepiranhaNSMBU.png|150px]][[File:Venus Fire Trap Artwork - Super Mario 3D Land.png|110px]]<br>Artwork from ''[[New Super Mario Bros. U]]'' and ''[[Super Mario 3D Land]]'' respectively
-}}
-{{br}}
-A while back, we decided to have the [[Thwomp]] [[Talk:Thwomp#Decide_which_design_to_use_for_the_infobox_artwork|page use both the spiky and the non-spiky variants because they appear consistently in many games.]] Nintendo usually picks one of the two, [[Mario Kart 7|if not]] [[Super Mario Maker 2|both]]. Another instance of this is the Fire Piranha Plant. We have the Fire Piranha that looks like a regular Plant, while we have the design introduced in ''Super Mario 3D Land''. Given that both designs appear consistently, we should do the same for the Fire Piranha Plants. The reason is that these designs vary by game, and they are both well-known designs of the Piranha Plant. People who go on the wiki might also have the 3D Land version fresh in their minds. Heck, [[Super Mario Maker 2|both even appear in the same game]], like the Thwomps in that game! I got a visual of what that should look like. I may do this in other articles of this type, [[King Boo|including]] [[Wario|characters]].
-The one reason to oppose is the images themselves. I had to shrink them so that both appear side by side. That's a pretty valid reason if you think that's a big deal.
-'''Proposer''': {{User|Wikiboy10}}<br>
-'''Deadline''': Jul 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT
-====Support====
-#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Let's fire this debate up! No flame wars please.
-#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal, it makes sense to do this here for the same reason we did it for Thwomp.
-#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
-#{{User|Pseudo}} Per the Thwomp decision.
-#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
-#{{User|MegaBowser64}} pER aLL//
-====Oppose====
-#{{User|7feetunder}} I don't think the brown design is prominent enough to invoke the Thwomp clause on it. Even taking its relative newness into consideration, it's pretty much exclusive to the ''SM3D'' duology and games related to them (''Captain Toad'', ''3DW'' style of ''SMM2''). The only exception I can think of is ''Aces''. Every other game since ''SM3DL'' has used the red design. Too early for this in my opinion. If the brown coloration becomes more prominent later on, we can revisit this.
-====Comments====
-Problem is the amount of games that use the brown design is really small, contrasting with Thwomp where the divide is pretty equal. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:27, July 6, 2023 (EDT)
-:Probably just because the brown design is significantly newer. Ever since the alternate design was been introduced, it's been interchangeable with the original design without a clear preference, much like the two Thwomp designs. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:37, July 6, 2023 (EDT)
-::To clarify, the two current Thwomp designs are from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' (2007) and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' (2009) respectively, which is not significantly newer compared to the black-and-orange Fire Piranha from ''Super Mario 3D Land'' (2011); instead, the red-and-white Fire Piranha design is significantly ''older'' than the black-and-orange Fire Piranha design ''and'' both of the current Thwomp designs, being from its debut game ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' (1988). {{User:Arend/sig}} 05:07, July 8, 2023 (EDT)
-:::I'm well aware. I meant that the brown design is significantly newer than the red and white design, and that this is the reason their total number of appearances is so imbalanced compared to Thwomps, whose two current designs debuted pretty close to each other. My point being that the literal number of appearances isn't what matters, but rather the fact that in recent years the designs are treated interchangeably without a clear preference. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 07:34, July 8, 2023 (EDT)
-::::I didn't mean overall, I meant since the second has been introduced. For instance, all NSMB and PM games since, SMO, and plenty of others continue to use the red design, while the brown has so far been exclusive to the SM3D games, that style in SMM2, Tennis, and maybe a few other minor spinoffs. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 08:38, July 8, 2023 (EDT)
-:::::I'd argue it's no longer "exclusive" to anything what with it showing up in other games (whose subjective "minor" nature is not really relevant here in my opinion), hence the two designs do appear to be interchangeable these days. I'd agree with you if literally only one or two games used the brown design, but that's not the case. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:52, July 8, 2023 (EDT)
-Ya know whats funny, this proposal already ended almost 12 years ago. See the [[MarioWiki:Proposals|Proposals]] page. Guess I'll wrap it up. --[[User:MegaBowser64|BOWSER...]] ([[User talk:MegaBowser64|talk]]) 08:32, July 11, 2023 (EDT)