Editing Talk:Fall

==Regarding splitting subjects (and logistics thereof)==
{{talk}}
I will preface this by saying that I know these were merged via proposal several years back and thus it will need another to be re-split, but I want to talk about the logistics of doing so before attempting. So many of these critters are vastly different appearance-wise yet not behavior-wise, and so it would seem odd to, for instance, put Koopa shell in a category for masks, Piranha Plants in a category for pumpkins, and Bullet Bills in a category for birds. The Bullet Bill ones are especially important here since they are also derivative of [[Pidgit]], which is otherwise completely different from Bullet Bill. Also, if I remember right, some of the Troopa color placements get scrambled. Also, the unique names only appear in the international SNES releases; since they were reverted to normal names in the GBA one, the article name would probably just be "[subject] (fall)" or something to that effect.

Anyways, with that stream of conscious out of the way, what primarily needs to be decided is how deep it goes. For instance, would we just split one pumpkin-headed Piranha Plant or all three? Or all four, if we're counting the beanstalks? What about the three G<s>al</s>oomba versions? And the mask colors? There's been talk of trying to split the enemy colors, would this get compounded by that as well? That would make it easier to note which colors are changed (and when), but to recap:

All possible articles to come from this:
*Green Koopa Troopa (fall)
*Red Koopa Troopa (fall)
*Yellow Koopa Troopa (fall)
*Blue Koopa Troopa (fall)
*Green Koopa Paratroopa (fall)
*Red Koopa Paratroopa (fall)
*Yellow Koopa Paratroopa (fall)
*Green Shell (fall)
*Red Shell (fall)
*Yellow Shell (fall)
*Blue Shell (fall)
*Shell (flashing, fall)
*Piranha Plant (fall)
*Jumping Piranha Plant (fall)
*Fire Jumping Piranha Plant (fall)
*Beanstalk (fall)
*Bullet Bill (fall) <small>I wonder whether diagonal Bills will stay merged...</small>
*Pokey (fall)
*Goomba (fall)
*Flying Goomba (fall)
*Para-Goomba (fall)

So, thoughts? Concerns? Ideas? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:30, May 18, 2025 (EDT)
: My concern is that despite the different looks and sometimes names, the enemies still act exactly the same. There's really no point in creating an article that says "This enemy acts exactly the same as the non-Fall form and just looks different." The way we currently have it wherein we acknowledge the differences is just fine. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 13:08, May 19, 2025 (EDT)
::I don't think it makes sense to split. All the information is well summarized in this page and splitting it would just make disseminating what Fall does, and maintaining these tiny articles, far more cumbersome than needed. {{User:Mario/sig}} 20:37, May 19, 2025 (EDT)
:::The issue of that meaning Bullet Bills would go in the bird category remains. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:51, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
::::I don't really see why that is an issue. Bullet Bills simply take the form of Birds in ''Super Mario World'' under specific conditions. I don't think [[Mario]] should be split up because he's only '''sometimes''' a [[:Category:Pirates|pirate]], [[:Category:Shapeshifters|shapeshifter]], [[:Category:Shopkeepers|shopkeeper]], [[:Category:Chefs|chef]], or [[:Category:Referees|referee]].--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 22:58, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
:::::None of those are species categories. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:13, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
::::::If that's a specific issue, I think just including [[Pidgit Bill]] under the bird category works while excluding Bullet Bill. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:18, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
:::::::And then the remaining ish is that it's more recently just called "Bullet Bill." [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:22, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
::::::::Then just categorize is as birds if that's so important. I rather we have that category than an entire swath of pages to maintain just because of this one thing. {{User:Mario/sig}} 23:23, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
:I think given that colors are involved, this does have to wait until coverage of colors of enemies is determined. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 23:02, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
:Doing this even after the oft-suggested "split enemy color variants" would be a very tough sell, as these are all reskins with no gameplay differences whatsoever; you'd have to come up with a very, very strong argument that there's enough different here to warrant a split, and the fact of the matter is, a lot of these lack that, with the only real outlier being [[Bullet Bill]]/[[Pidgit|Pidgit Bill]]. Doing this ''before'' the proposal for such a split has been actually proposed, <s>let alone drafted to our awareness</s> '''(EDIT: Wait no it's been drafted, our bad. We still don't feel good about doing this pre-proposing it though.)''', is a basically impossible sell, and we feel like we'd have to oppose it just on principle, no matter what rationale you could come up with. The idea we'd split "Koopa Troopa" and "Koopa Troopa (fall)" before "Red Koopa Troopa" and "Green Koopa Troopa" is, for lack of a better term, pretty dang asinine. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:33, May 23, 2025 (EDT)
:SML2 also features multiple enemies that function identically to [[Goomba]] ([[Aqua Goomba]], [[Masked Ghoul]], [[Kiddokatto]]) and DK94 is ''full'' of identically functioning enemies. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 00:41, May 24, 2025 (EDT)
:: Those guys are pretty explicitly different according to the JP guidebooks. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 07:14, May 24, 2025 (EDT)
:Just saying that [[Jumping Pumpkin Plant|fall piranha plants]] already have a page. {{User:Colin's world 3 YT/sig}} 07:22, September 15, 2025 (EDT)
::"[[Special:Diff/4974981|Per proposal]]" apparently? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 08:33, September 15, 2025 (EDT)
:::Per [[Talk:Jumping Piranha Plant#Split Jumping Pumpkin Plant from Jumping Piranha Plant]]. It appears to not have been placed in the archive. [[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 08:46, September 15, 2025 (EDT)
::::Fixed. Splitting over manga appearances seems to open the door for the others, no? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:18, September 15, 2025 (EDT)
::::{{@|Salmancer}} My mistake! Sorry about that, I’d forgotten to archive it. {{User:DryBonesBandit/sig}} 23:24, September 15, 2025 (EDT)
{{@|LinkTheLefty}}: We could probably do Mask Koopas and Pidgit Bills. Pokeys are a thin line because the manga depicts them as Pokeys but with Mario masks while the remake depicts them as living saws. [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 12:10, September 29, 2025 (EDT)
:The old merge proposal was made without other media in mind, so if there is manga that gives them more of a role besides graphic swap, that's probably decent cause for re-split. The Pokeys can even be included since "Ura/Fall" variant ostensibly makes them the same idea. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 23:00, September 29, 2025 (EDT)