Editing Talk:Cannon

3 images are enough, arent they? {{user:Tucayo/sig|ABC}}
:Cannons had quite different appearances throughout the games. There could be more images, however that would require more text or a gallery. - {{User:Cobold/sig}} 17:17, 12 February 2009 (EST)
::Cannons vary through the games, so couldn't they each be given a seperate article? {{user:Reversinator/sig}}
:::They vary in appearance, but they serve the same purpose and are largely inanimate objects. The only thing I'd call into question on this page is the cannon from Sunshine, because it shoots Bullet Bills. That may suggest it's a [[Bill Blaster]], and that it should be merged to that page. Otherwise, it's a general subject so it's fine where it is. [[User:Redstar|Redstar]] 14:01, 7 December 2009 (EST)

There are three types of cannons in the article: the cannon that shoots cannonballs, the cannon enemy that shoots cannonballs, and the cannons that shoot you to a new world. Does anyone suggest splitting these into different articles? (There are so many different cannons!!!) {{User|Mario jc}}

== Different Article ==

The different types of cannons 

1. The ones that take the player to other worlds
2. The ones that fire cannonballs

should be in a different article. {{Unsigned|World 6}}

:They are already in two different articles. The ones which take you to other worlds are called [[Warp Cannons]]. AND for the millionth time please sign your comments with 4 tildes (~). {{User:JORDAN DEBONO/sig}} 05:49, 27 August 2012 (EDT)

==Mario & Luigi Bowsers inside story Cannons==
AS in the title shouldn't the cannons from these games be included? - [[File:Cubeguy2ver.png|30px]][[User:Cubeguy|Cubeguy]][[User talk:Cubeguy|(talk)]]

== Mario Kart Cannons? ==
There are lots of pages for "Cannon", but I cann't found one for the cannons in the [[Mario Kart (series)|Mario Kart series]], like the ones in [[Maple Treeway]] and [[Airship Fortress]]! Should we make a new page for them? {{User|Tsunami}}
:Hmmm.... That's an idea. We could make a section for the Mario Kart series instead. Though I want to see what others think. - {{User:Ninelevendo/sig}} 05:02, 4 June 2014 (EDT)

== Split Red Cannon from this article? ==
Should we split the Red Cannon from this article, seeing as how we have multiple Super Mario Maker/Super Mario Maker 2 variants split and/or planned to split? The name comes from Super Mario Maker 2. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 11:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
:The only thing that's different between the two is cannonball speed and color. Opposing. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:09, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
::What about [[Bull's-Eye Blaster|this]]? --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:10, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
:::That makes no difference since red Cannons can't be customized in the same way that Bull's-Eye Blasters can. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 12:13, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::Their internal filename is: https://pastebin.com/6M4gKbmt SenkanHoudaiRed, wonder about the Japanese name though. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:17, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
:::::It doesn't matter. Different Japanese name does not mean a split. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 12:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::::I'm out of arguments for the moment. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:19, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::It is [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmiMX5myXxw&t=2m12s named] separately, and we ''do'' split the Koopa Shell object colors (though not Koopa Troopa enemy colors themselves). If Bull's-Eye Blasters were still called Bill Blasters in ''Super Mario Maker 2'' or identified as "Red Bill Blasters", would we have salvaged the article? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 12:30, July 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::If it was Red Bill Blaster, yes, but not if it wasn't distinguished. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 08:53, July 26, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::And they're officially named. They're not the same cannon. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 10:20, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::Also, they were not distinguished until Super Mario Maker 2. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 15:09, August 5, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::Look, how about this: The Koopas are considered to be the same, while the cannons are considered to be separate. I'm aware that they can't be customized the same way the Bull's-Eye Blaster can. They are two different things. We don't merge two different things. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 12:06, August 8, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::They're NOT the same cannon. This seems like not spitting Fire Koopa Clown Car from Koopa Clown Car. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 09:01, August 11, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::It's not that they're not the same cannon, it's that there are practically no differences between the cannons. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 16:07, August 11, 2019 (EDT)

== Delete the [[Warp Cannon]]s information? ==

There is already a specific page for those. It is not useful to have the same information twice.  adn they are not the same. WHy are they still here? I can add a disambiguation header so it is way more useful than having clones. [[User:1JUST1|1JUST1]] ([[User talk:1JUST1|talk]]) 17:30, December 31, 2020 (EST)
:Sure, there is a specific page, but I don't see what's wrong about having a brief mention that cannons of some sort do appear in a game. Why focus on Warp Cannons? Why should [[Pipe Cannon]], [[Turnip Cannon]], and other named cannons that have their own pages remain? {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 17:11, January 1, 2021 (EST)

== Article Split Proposal: the enemy cannon vs. the interactive cannon ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|1-2-5|no change}}
The utilization of a "cannon" in the ''Mario'' series is not unilateral. There is an "'''enemy cannon'''" (which I am bolding here for emphasis, not because it is an officially recognized name) that fires projectiles (like [[Cannonball]]s or water balloons in ''[[Super Mario 64]]'') to harm the player (similar to a [[Bill Blaster]]), and there is an "'''interactive cannon'''" that is a manipulative tool for level progression (similar to a [[Launch Star]]). Outside of the ''[[Super Mario Maker]]'' games (which are structurally different from the ''Super Mario'' series "proper") the interactive cannons do not become accessible from appropriating enemy cannons. The closest comparison I can think of is "[[The Beach Cannon's Secret]]" from ''[[Super Mario Sunshine]]'', where Mario gains access to a cannon after defeating the [[Monty Mole]] on Pinna Beach, but: (a.) the Monty Mole is controlling different artillery - a tank that shoots [[Bullet Bills]] - so it cannot be compared to the "enemy cannon"; and (b.) the Beach Cannon does not even launch the player anywhere, it is just an entrance point for a secret course like a [[Warp Pipe]]. The only "interactive cannon" in the game is the one that launches the player to [[Pinna Park]] and it has no connection to the Monty Mole tanks other than a superficial resemblance (which mechanically makes it comparable to the [[Warp Cannon]]s of the ''New Super Mario Bros.'' games). In ''[[Super Mario Galaxy]]'', the two iterations of the cannons even co-exist and look completely different (compare [[:File:SMG Cannon Firing Cannonball.png|this screenshot]] of the enemy cannon to [[:File:SMG Asset Model Cannon.png|this model]] of the interactive one). The distinctiveness between these two objects, one an obstacle and one a tool, makes it seem more appropriate to seperate the information into at least two different articles (I cannot speak on whether or not "Cannon" and "Red Cannon" should be two separate articles, but the discussion point above is aimed to accomplish that). The options I recommend would be:
*('''My preference'''): migrate information pertaining to the "enemy cannon" to the [[Cannonball]] article. The relationship between the artillery and its ammunition are more directly tied to each other than the [[Bullet Bill]] and [[Bill Blaster]], because the Bullet Bill has more independent utility in many games (like ''Mario Kart'' and some 2D levels in the ''Super Mario'' games; or the fact that they can be launched from other things, like the aforementioned Monty Mole tank in ''Sunshine''). I do not think there is ever a situation where you have a "Cannonball" without an "enemy cannon", so consolidating the information in one article does not seem inappropriate.
*Split the article into "Cannon (obstacle)" (for the enemy cannon) and keep "Cannon" just for the interactive tool.
*Do nothing. I guess it's tolerable but not preferable :/
Let me know what you think! - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 11:39, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

'''Proposer:''' {{User|Nintendo101}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' April 2, 2021, 23:59 GMT

===Move enemy cannon info to [[Cannonball]]===
#{{User|Nintendo101}} Per proposal.

===Split the article between different types===
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''{{'}}s enemy and usable cannons are so totally different that having them in the same section is essentially comparing apples and oranges. ''Sunshine'' may have them using the same models, but their roles are still mutually-exclusive.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} One is a tool, the other is an obstacle. There is some overlap but it's too occasional to have both concepts explained on the same page. The current article should be split the same way as [[Fireball]] and [[Fireball (obstacle)]].

===Oppose===
#{{User|Alex95}} - Opposing because they are just cannons, regardless of who uses them. I suppose the [[Cannonball]] article could be expanded a bit, and the ''Super Mario 64'' equivalent would be [[Water Bomb (object)|Water Bombs]], but we don't need to split a common object based on who uses it.
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per Alex95
#{{User|Archivist Toadette}} This is exactly like the [[Banana]] case, as in it's not as straightforward as it appears to be. In fact, the ''Super Mario'' series alone has both stunt and ammunition cannons, meaning that it's pretty much treated interchangeably either way you slice it.
#{{User|Keyblade Master}} The article seems alright as it is to me.
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I think having all cannon-related information in one page suits better than splitting off every single cannon for their inevitable different roles they play in different games.

===Comments===
You can read more about how to format proposals properly at [[MarioWiki:Proposals]]. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 12:17, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
:I appreciate this. This is the first time I have made a formal proposal on the wiki and I was unsure of the correct format. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 12:24, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

In fact, I think [[Cannon (Mario Kart series)]] should be merged with this article. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:50, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

Just one question, does the intention of this proposal tie into the split template that is already on the page in any way? {{User:Keyblade Master/sig}} 21:46, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

:The header is about a different proposal. However, I think it is kind of difficult to commit to that topic without addressing this one first because it is dependent on first establishing whether this article should be about Cannons is a broad sense (anything in the games that is localized as a "cannon") or a narrow sense (just the enemy cannons, and from there the decision to split it between "Cannon" and "Red Cannon" makes a little more sense).

:This is likely a consequence of interpretation, but my proposal derives from an observation that the cannons that fire Cannonballs in the games can be categorized as proper mobs due to their function in-game and direct relationship to their artillery. They therefore have more in common with enemy characters than they do with mushroom platforms, warp pipes, and other more generalized objects the player interacts with. My preference is not to split the article in two, but rather redistribute the information because it feels more accurate that way: material about "enemy cannons" is best in the Cannonball article, and this one can be dedicated to other uses for it. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 22:30, March 19, 2021 (EDT)

I'm pretty split on this proposal myself. I can see both arguments being made for both sides and either is viable: I think there is a case where there is a point of differentiation between, say, the cannons from Super Mario Bros. 3 that launch bombs at you and the one in Mario Party 7 that launches you to another part of the board: both have distinct utilities and players approach both of these differently. However, there are indeed instances that muddies the waters in which cannons can be used for both functions (ie taking over a cannon from an enemy and the waterbombs from Super Mario 64 that use the same canon design) and that their design is generic enough to allow for both. I'll abstain from voting, but I think right now, I'm leaning towards oppose just because of the intertwined functionality some cannons provide. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 15:47, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:In SM64, though, the cannon the Bob-omb uses can't be used by the player (at least in that mission, can't remember if in later ones it can). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:18, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
::I've noticed, but they both use the same design, and yes, the cannon can be used by the player in later missions. I swore the canon with the same design from Super Mario 64 also appeared in a Mario Party title too. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:24, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::I played through SM64 recently; Bob-omb Battlefield is the only course to feature cannons useable by Mario and ones used by enemies to fire projectiles, and in this context they are mutually-exclusive (similar to Sunshine). (e.g. The cannon used by the black Bob-omb enemy on the mountain fires water balloons and cannot be used; the other two cannons are available to the player). The only potential edge case is in Bob-omb Battlefield's first mission, where the Bob-ombs are at war and everyone is firing water balloons from their cannons. However, from my perspective, this is negligible because there is never an instance within a mission where an enemy cannon transitions into becoming a tool. The Bob-omb Buddy cannons only become useable in the second missions onward; the enemy Bob-omb's cannon remains a hazard. In every other course, the cannon is only a tool useable by Mario. (Water balloons are also in the multiplayer course in SM64DS, but they just... rain from the sky sometimes.) - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 17:53, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
::::I'm pretty sure the cannon on the King Bob-omb mountain becomes useable (not in the first mission), or that it just sits there without anyone using it past the first mission. Been a while since I played 64 DS. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 17:57, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::::I'm fairly certain that's not the case (as finding the enemy Bob-omb who operates the cannon to throw him off the mountain is a morbidly childish thing I do in every mission for Bob-omb Battlefield, and Water Bombs remain a projectile hazard in every mission of Bob-omb Battlefield), but I can double check in a couple days. - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:12, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
::::::Probably not within the same mission as you said, even if you do the funny thing of killing the Bob-omb next to the cannon, but it does become usable in later missions. I think it's safe to assume it's technically the same cannon. Even [[:File:SM64 Shoot to the Island in the Sky.png|take a look at this image]], there's no cannon visible in this shot where it would normally rest on. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:14, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::::::I'm not a Super Mario 64 savant, but couldn't its absence come from the draw distance limitations of the software? Sometimes objects pop in and out based on how far the camera is from them. If that is not a factor, and the cannon becomes useable, wouldn't you still see it mounted in the ground behind Mario in this screenshot anyways? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 18:25, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::::::: I did consider the possibility of draw distance but I also remember wasting a session blasting back and forth between the island and having fun with that. I'm also watching videos, though the videos always take the route on the rock than go on the mountain. Our wiki entry [[Shoot to the Island in the Sky]] even mentions that you can use that cannon. {{User:Ray Trace/sig}} 18:28, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::::I can tell you that water bombs fall in all missions of 64, but do not do so in all missions of 64 DS. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:42, March 20, 2021 (EDT)

That fireball example isn't the best because the fireball page does list the ones that come out of enemies. Apparently, the fireball (obstacle) page lists only standalone fireballs that don't require being thrown by another entity. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 21:37, March 20, 2021 (EDT)

== Split off the ''NSMBU'' cannons that blast the player onto the Koopalings' airships? ==

In ''New Super Mario Bros. U'', there is a special type of cannon that blasts the player onto the Koopalings' airships once a castle has been cleared. Should this be split into a new article? [[User:Supermario12345|Supermario12345]] ([[User talk:Supermario12345|talk]])

:That's already on the page, and I don't think that's a big enough distinction to warrant a split. Every interactive cannon mentioned on the page has different destinations while still having the same general function of launching Mario. {{User:Mario jc/sig}} 06:47, May 23, 2021 (EDT)

==The many faces of Cannon==
{{talk}}
There are multiple different types of cannons in the franchise that I think can be split off as variants:
Now for the splittable ones:
*Quartet-cannons from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. These are the quadrupal-barreled cannons that rotate. Easy variant.
*Diagonal cannons that have so far only appeared in ''Super Mario Bros. 3''. Specifically, this is referring to the double-sided ones that also hang from the background. Easy variant.
*Giant cannons that shoot giant cannonballs from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', and ''New Super Mario Bros. U''. Presuming that the horizontal cannons are not split from the host article as mentioned below, this can include the diagonal-facing enlarged cannons from ''Super Mario Maker'' and ''Super Mario Maker 2''. Easy variant either way.
Now for the ones that I don't think should be split:
*The longer, horizontal cannons from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', which tend to be referred to as turrets. According to ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'', these were initially the standard cannons while the diagonal-facing cannons had a unique name in that game only; however, horizontal cannons went on to disappear while diagonal-facing cannon obstacles became the norm (Bill Blasters presumably made them redundant), with the latter overtaking the former's name ala [[Blooper Nanny#Names in other languages|Blooper Nanny]] or [[Mikey Mine#Names in other languages|Mikey Mine]]. For simplicity, I would say to just consider these minor subsets of each other, not unlike upside-down cannons, Piranha Plants, and Spinies.
*The cannons that move their barrels in ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. Despite ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' providing a name for the Burners with similar behavior, it does not provide a name for these. Presumably, this is because quartet-cannons already have similar names. Still, no name for these, and keeping these and the rotating Burners in their respective articles prevents having to use the <nowiki>{{conjecture}}</nowiki> and <nowiki>{{encyclopedia}}</nowiki> tags, respectively.
Maybe-splits:
*The rotating cannon pipe from ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii''. It might be fine to cover them alongside quartet-cannons, except this is more of a hybrid between those and giant cannons. It would have to use an <nowiki>{{encyclopedia}}</nowiki> tag if split further.
*This may need a new proposal due to the above one failing, but perhaps the idea behind it can be revisited again? There's a subtle difference between the [[Cannon#Names in other languages|Japanese names]]: one is thought of as a cannon in the traditional sense, and the other is more of a vehicle's assault battery/turret/gun. While [[Bill Blaster#Names in other languages|Bill Blaster]] has had this term used interchangeably, there does, on occasion, seem to be a fine line here. For instance, the ''New Super Mario Bros. U'' section of ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' uses the former for the boss cannons that take you to the Koopalings and the latter for the cannonball-shooting obstacles. Not sure how confusing this might be, however, and more research is required to see just how consistent it is. According to the same book, the only other platformer to reuse the ''Super Mario 64'' name is ''Super Mario 3D Land'', so this split would have to be one of function/style. Also of note is that the book generally uses the latter name in the ''Super Mario Sunshine'' section, but the game itself uses the [[The Beach Cannon's Secret#Names in other languages|former]]. A lot of the functional difference in cannons throughout the series looks to be on a per-game/genre basis, so I'm not sure what is better for navigation.
Regardless, I think most of the variants from ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' are easy splits, and I'm not sure how things ended up such that giant cannonball had an article but giant cannon didn't. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 10:40, July 29, 2023 (EDT)
:I'd be in support for a split. --{{User:FanOfYoshi/sig}} 13:20, July 29, 2023 (EDT)
::Makes sense, I've gone ahead and uploaded images of all the SMB3 types. We may also want to consider splitting the "gimmick" cannon from the "enemy" artillery cannon like what was attempted above, if we're doing this, considering how they appear as totally separate objects in games like ''Super Mario Galaxy'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', the latter of which returns some of the SMB3 variations. If we're splitting obstacle types, it doesn't make sense to keep a helpful object merged to the base obstacle. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 16:10, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
:::I've went ahead and split the top three since there weren't any objections. On that note, I think we can add the Bob-omb "mortars" to the distinct list of "maybes" - it seems that in some games, like ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', they have a somewhat different appearance from regular cannonball-shooting cannons. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 13:43, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::: Hey, I've noticed an oddity in the redirections you've made: so [[two-direction cannon]] and [[two direction cannon]] lead to [[diagonal cannon]], but [[Two Direction Cannon]] and [[Two Direction Cannon]] lead to [[quartet-cannon]]. Shouldn't they all redirect to one type of cannon?<br>Oh, and btw, [[Bob-omb Cannon]] exist. Maybe move all the info of cannons shooting Bob-ombs to that page? {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:55, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
:::::Fixed, that was a draft-accident where I mixed up diagonal cannon and quartet-cannon. As for Bob-omb Cannon, I can see that working out. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 14:05, April 14, 2024 (EDT)

==Bob/Bill versions==
{{talk}}
Continuing from the above discussion, but only focusing on the ones shooting these two in particular. There seems to be some kind of divergence and convergence here. Bob-ombs come out of cannons in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'', ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'', ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'', ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' (Para-bomb), and ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder''. ''Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros.'' just includes them as a type of cannon in the ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' and ''New Super Mario Bros. Wii'' sections, but it refers to the ''New Super Mario Bros. 2'' version with a unique name (identified as a Bob-omb cannon in Japanese, despite the description mentioning Para-bombs and there being no cannonball-shooting cannons). I couldn't find many other sources that make a distinction, but the closest English-source mention I found was on page 74 of ''Nintendo Power'' 13 (Strategy Guide): "'''''Bob-omb Lobbers''' These stubby cannons fire Bob-ombs as projectiles. Wait until the Bob-omb explodes and then make a dash for it. Always be watchful of cannon fire; some of these are almost like machine guns!''" Unfortunately I don't think we have the names from the ''Mario vs. Donkey Kong'' Shogakukan guide scans unless I'm mistaken, but the remake's internal data seems to call them "Cannon" and "BobombLauncher". It feels like, overall, there was a [[Bull's-Eye Blaster]]-esque divergence, where these cannons were becoming more of their own thing over time. [[Bob-omb Cannon]] might be a good place to move the info on the Bob-omb (and Parabomb) shooters. ''Super Mario Sunshine'' and ''Super Mario Bros. Wonder'' are odd ones out, since unlike every other appearance, they shoot Bullet Bills. ''Sunshine'' can be excused since it's really part of that game's version of Monty Mole as a miniboss, but ''Wonder'' is more curious since it breaks a trend. However, I think what might be the case is that the "cannon" is actually the same model as the very top part of a Bill Blaster, and so short Bill Blasters are rendered as cannons, but I might be wrong. What do we think about how these cannons are organized? [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 22:26, April 16, 2024 (EDT)