Editing Talk:Buzzy Shell

[[Nintendo Badge Arcade]] refers to Mario's form while wearing a spiny shell as "Spiny Mario". Should we add it onto the page? {{User:Pyro Guy/sig}} 09:29, 6 December 2015 (EST)
:Seeing as the current article is conjecture and Nintendo Badge Arcade is an official source, I don't see why not. {{User:Bazooka Mario/sig}} 00:17, 7 December 2015 (EST)
::Would we split them into {{fake link|Spiny Helmet}} and {{fake link|Buzzy Helmet}}? {{User:Pyro Guy/sig}} 12:38, 10 December 2015 (EST)
:::I personally think they'd be best left the same. They're nearly identical except that the Spiny helmet is more destructive; in that sense, it's similar to the distinction between a giant Goomba Shoe and a giant Goomba Stiletto (which can break blocks with the ground pound). [[User:The Blue Boo|The Blue Boo]] ([[User talk:The Blue Boo|talk]]) 02:13, 31 December 2015 (EST)
::::Seeing that there are two varieties, I believe another image should be uploaded for the Buzzy Beetle Helmet. I would if I knew how...[[User:296lmn20|296lmn20]] ([[User talk:296lmn20|talk]]) 12:24, 16 April 2016 (EDT)296lmn20
:::::Why not use the Spiny Mario name from Nintendo Badge Arcade as ''partconjecture'' (since it needs to factor Buzzy Beetle), and change the article from being about the item/object to one of Mario's transformations (similar to how Invincible Mario 'stacks' on an existing power-up form)? The shell is being used as a helmet, but it's announced as the original enemy and is just an empty shell (somewhat akin to previously-seen empty Koopa Troopa shells), so it's a slight misnomer. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 09:05, 27 August 2016 (EDT)
::::::In the 3DS version when it is gotten in the Super Mario Challenge, it is called Buzzy Beetle Shell. I am not sure about the other, but it would be called Spiny Shell. Mario is called Buzzy Mario when he wears the Buzzy Bettle Shell. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 12:04, 28 December 2016 (EST)
:::::::Oh. I found out that Spiny Shell is indeed in the game as it is unlocked in the next world. The pigeon says that if Mario wears the Spiny Shell, he becomes Spiny Mario. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 12:31, 28 December 2016 (EST)
::::::::Wow! Nothing has changed since I posted here? This really needs more input before anything is done, though. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 15:08, 24 June 2017 (EDT)
:::::::::Seeing as this page is currently conjectural, and "Spiny Mario" is the closest to an official name we have, I think it should be moved over, unless any instruction manuals have an official name as well. Any other links suggested could be redirects. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 15:22, 24 June 2017 (EDT)
::::::::::The only conflict there is, this article is somewhat about Buzzy Mario as well. I am thinking that it should be moved to Buzzy Mario as it is the lesser, but that is my view. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 15:26, 24 June 2017 (EDT)
:::::::::::After thinking a bit, I came up with 3 options. Move this to {{fake link|Helmet (Super Mario Maker)}}, move to [[Buzzy Beetle shell]] (will be blue not red no matter what's decided) and split it so [[Spiny Shell]] is on that page, or change conjectural to partconjectural. The reason for the first and third is it is called just helmet or ''"...wearing a Buzzy Beetle shell like a helmet...."'' to be exact. the second being based on what was suggested, but not by me. In any case, I'm doing it in the morning or when I have time (as I will be quite busy tomorrow, maybe even in the morning). {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 00:31, 19 October 2017 (EDT)
::::::::::::Adding onto this convo, Super Mario Maker for the 3DS calls the buzzy beetle version "Buzzy Mario" in the challenge descriptors. So it seems to be two versions; Buzzy Mario and Spiny Mario. Should we do a proposal, or...? '''''[[User:Camwood777|<font color="red">~Camwood777</font>]]''' [[User talk:Camwood777|<font color="red">(talk)</font>]]'' 15:37, 26 October 2017 (EDT)
:::::::::::::Yeah, this should be a proposal. To split or not to split. But if I am doing it, I am not doing it today. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:56, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

In the meantime, I have found some images that could work for Buzzy Mario, but they are for levels in the Super Mario Challenge. They are [[:File:W7-1 SMM3DS.png]], [[:File:W7-3 SMM3DS.png]], [[:File:W7-4 SMM3DS.png]], [[:File:W9-6 SMM3DS.png]], and [[:File:W14-2 SMM3DS.png]]. I prefer 9-6, but 7-1, 14-2, and 7-4 (in that order) are also good. 7-3 is not good due to it almost being hidden. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:56, 1 November 2017 (EDT)

==Split Spiny Shell and Buzzy Beetle Shell==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|8-0|split}}
It has been mentioned above that this should be split. The reason why is because (a) they have different [[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS|in-game]] names and (b) they function differently. Also, they are somewhat split already as [[Spiny Shell]] (backup after [[User:Toadette the Achiever]]'s proposal passes: [[Spiny Shell (Spiny)]]) already has an article. However, it has a link to here like it should. This proposal will move all info about the Spiny Shell to that article. However, there is also the possibility of it being moved to a Spiny Shell with and identifier if it needs to be that way (it will be {{fake link|Spiny Shell (Super Mario Maker)}}). Info about the Buzzy Beetle shell will remain here and this will be moved to [[Buzzy Beetle Shell]]. After the move, Shell Helmet will either be deleted or turn into a disambridge. But, if this fails, changes will still be made to go against the split info. Mainly this quote, "It protects him from damage from above, and is useful against [[Thwomp]]s," will be removed (because it should be) from Spiny Shell (this also applies if this passes and the moved info is given an identifier, although changes to other parts of the paragraph will still be changed). This proposal also will determine where links ([[Buzzy Mario]] and [[Spiny Mario]] as well as Buzzy Beetle Shell if this fails) redirect to. As for the info the relates to both, right now I am thinking of having it on both, but this can be a subject of change. But, only if people feel strongly against having them in both. I don't think it will go against [[MarioWiki:Once and only once|policy]] as it is needed to be said twice. Flow will not be an issue if this passes.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Yoshi the SSM}}<br>
'''Deadline''':  November 27, 2017, 23:59 (UTC)

===Support===
#{{User|Yoshi the SSM}} Per proposal.
#{{User|PowerKamek}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}} Took a while to think it through, but I suppose they're different enough. We have articles for both the [[Super Leaf]] and [[Statue Leaf]], as well as [[Goomba's Shoe]] and [[Ice Skate|Skate]].
#{{User|Alex95}} - Per all and comments below.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|YoshiFlutterJump}} I guess these are different items.  Per all.
#{{User|Lcrossmk8}} Okay, sure. Per proposal. But if I may ask, are you saying we should split the [[Spiny Shell]] page and the [[Buzzy Beetle]] page into two without regard for the [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)]] page?
#{{User|Toadette the Achiever}} They are clearly different enough to warrant separate articles, so per all.

===Oppose===

===Comments===
To be clear, this proposal is not related to [[Talk:Spiny Shell#Move to Spiny Shell (Spiny) and move Spiny Shell (Mario Kart) to this title|this proposal]]. Results from either won't affect the other. I was reminded to create this proposal when that proposal went up. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 13:30, 16 November 2017 (EST)
:The Nintendo Badge Arcade claims "Spiny Mario" to be the official name, as stated in the conversation above, so that would make Spiny Helmet official as well. But that would leave Buzzy Beetle Helmet and Mario with a conjecture template. Before I vote, I want to ask again: Is there a source that names those? Games or guides? {{User:Alex95/sig}} 13:38, 16 November 2017 (EST)
::They are in-game names in ''[[Super Mario Maker for Nintendo 3DS]]''. It calls them those names when they are unlock/in the dialogue of Mary O. and Yamamura. Although, Helmet is not in the name at all; it is Shell. Neither is Beetle is Buzzy Mario, but it is in Buzzy Beetle Shell. None except Shell Helmet and Shellmet are conjecturally named. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 13:56, 16 November 2017 (EST)
:::So it calls them "Spiny Shell" and "Buzzy Beetle Shell"? If it does, might be a good idea to include that in the proposal. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:01, 16 November 2017 (EST)
::::Um... They are in the proposal, already. Their names are in the title even. I am still changing the proposal to reflect that they are in-game names. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 14:06, 16 November 2017 (EST)
:::::Yeah, I saw the names in the proposal, but not where the names came from. {{User:Alex95/sig}} 14:08, 16 November 2017 (EST)

I don't think we need a "Spiny Shell (Super Mario Maker)" article, as it can fit under the normal [[Spiny Shell]] page (particularly as the only way it becomes different is if you press down while holding it or jump from underneath/get it to land on you. The [[Spiny Shell (Mario Kart)|other Spiny Shell]] had a lot of differences between versions too, not to mention what's going on with [[Mushroom]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:57, 21 November 2017 (EST)
:The planned thing was to keep it under the current Spiny Shell article unless there is a strong opposition of doing so. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 09:03, 22 November 2017 (EST)

@Lcrossmk8: Because that is a different proposal. And this would not effect that page at all. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 16:20, 24 November 2017 (EST)

@Yoshi the SSM: Shouldn't they just be renamed to {{fake link|Spiny Helmet}} and {{fake link|Buzzy Beetle Helmet}}, since Nintendo hasn't confirmed anything about their official names? {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:22, 24 November 2017 (EST)
:Um... Not to be rude, but haven't you read this? They are officially named in the remake. They are officially called Shells, but not Helmets. {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:26, 24 November 2017 (EST)
::Oh. In that case, shouldn't the Spiny Shell <del>Helmet</del> page be instead named {{fake link|Spiny Shell (helmet)}}? [[MarioWiki:Article naming]] allows explicit naming conventions for identifiers, and I thought I'd ask. {{User:Toadette the Achiever/sig}} 17:34, 24 November 2017 (EST)
:::Good point. But, I don't think this would be necessary. See [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick]]'s comment {{User:Yoshi the Space Station Manager/sig}} 17:39, 24 November 2017 (EST)

== Buzzy Shell ==
The "Mario's Moves" instructions for ''[[Super Mario Maker 2]]'' call this the '''Buzzy Shell'''. Should this page be renamed? {{User:Scrooge200/sig}} 02:20, July 5, 2019 (EDT)
:Given that's the most recent name, I'd say so. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 02:26, July 5, 2019 (EDT)

== Split this and Spiny Shell (red)? ==
This article and [[Spiny Shell (red)]] talk about all instances of Buzzy Beetles' and Spinies' shells, which makes perfect sense, but ''Super Mario Maker'' and its sequel have new hollow shells that exist ''directly alongside'' the shells as they work in the other games. Buzzies and Spinies can retreat into their shell, and these can not be worn in any style. All 4 game styles have distinct graphics for the two versions of shell, showing the underbelly for the retreated enemy and fully hollow shells for the helmets. As I see it, these are four discrete course elements. I would therefore suggest splitting information about the "shellmets" and the Buzzy Mario and Spiny Mario forms to new articles titled {{Fake link|Buzzy Shell (helmet)}} and {{Fake link|Spiny Shell (helmet)}}. --[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 23:50, February 3, 2025 (EST)

==Split ''Super Mario Maker'' helmets==
{{settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|passed|10-2|Create helmet articles}}
{{Multiple image
|align=left
|image1=SMMBuzzyShellNSMBU.png
|caption1=A Buzzy Beetle hiding in ''SMM''
|width1=70
|image2=SMM-NSMBU-Buzzy Shell.png
|caption2=A hollow, wearable Buzzy Shell in ''SMM''
|width2=70
}}
As I questioned in the section above, I feel like the wearable shells in ''Super Mario Maker'' should be considered to be distinct objects from Buzzy Shells and Spiny Shells in general. The real main reason for this is that both versions of each shell fully coexist in the Maker games, and are not interchangeable in any way outside of the editor itself.  In some regards, these hollow shells are almost like powerups for the Buzzy Mario and Spiny Mario forms. Shaking a Buzzy Beetle turns it into a hollow shell, which can be worn. This is distinct from simply jumping on a Buzzy Beetle in play, as these "shelled" Beetles will eventually come back out of their shells and cannot be worn at all. They even have distinct graphics in all 4 game styles to clearly show whether the shell is hollow or not, up to having new sprites for the ''SMB'' and ''SMB3'' game styles showing the hiding Beetle's underbelly, unlike the original games.

As such, I think these wearable shells should have their own pages, which would presumably be called {{Fake link|Buzzy Shell (helmet)}} and {{Fake link|Spiny Shell (helmet)}} respectively. Being that the general shells appear in many more games, they would keep the non-disambiguated titles.

{{br}}
'''Proposer''': {{User|PopitTart}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 12, 2025, 23:59 (UTC)

===Support: Split Buzzy Shell (helmet) and Spiny Shell (helmet)===
#{{User|PopitTart}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Jdtendo}} It makes sense. The helmet variant is an actual object that is different from the shelled enemy.
#{{User|Rykitu}} Per Jdtendo.
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Shellmets are treated as unique entities from non-helmet shells by the game, ergo, we should split them. Per proposal.
#{{User|EvieMaybe}} would let us go into more detail about the shellmet's functionality as well
#{{User|Kaptain Skurvy}} Surprised these two weren't already split. Per all!
#{{User|WingedBoomBoom}} Per all.
#{{User|Nelsonic}} Per all.
#{{User|Scrooge200}} The game does distinguish them: stomped Buzzy Beetles or Spinies cannot be worn as a helmet. There's also a bunch of unique interactions with each helmet that would be worth documenting.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. Makes sense.

===Oppose: Keep together===
#{{User|Hewer}} Pretty much the only aspect in which these differ is function, and having read the comments, I'm not convinced the differences are major enough to be worth a split. I don't think the ability to wear it makes it fundamentally a different object that needs to be on a different article (the [[Koopa Shell]]s from 3D World come to mind, and the [[Blue Shell]] article also has no problem covering both a power-up for Mario and a thing worn by enemies), and I feel like this is more just a case of the same object serving different functions in the same game. Also, I'm not sure if the Buzzy Shell page in particular would even exist if it weren't for the helmet, so splitting that would feel odd.
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per what Hewer said, particularly the last point. <small>(Also personally, I'd be more receptive to trying to merge the Spiny Shells by color since that was always meant to be a series thing more than a separate object thing.)</small>

===Shellme''n''ts===
The thing is, the helmet versions of these shells ''can still be kicked around like a regular shell''. So that means the ''only'' difference between the helmet versions and regular versions is that one version is able to be worn while another isn't. Is that enough to be worth a split? After all, we're not splitting other variants with the same names just because they behave a little differently (e.g. red [[Spike Top]]s and blue Spike Tops in ''Mario Maker'') {{User:Arend/sig}} 05:56, February 26, 2025 (EST)
:There is the other difference that empty Buzzly Shells shot from Bill Blasters are can't be stomped because they become moving platforms (that can still hurt if they run into Mario.) Lots of Mario Maker contraptions take advantage of this to move solid objects like Bill Blasters left and right, or use a whole row as a weird kind of automatically moving platform.[[User:Salmancer|Salmancer]] ([[User talk:Salmancer|talk]]) 06:13, February 26, 2025 (EST)
::This mechanic is used prevalently in the ''SMM2'' Story Mode level [[BUZZY: The Movie: The Book: The Ride]], which forces the player to ride on and throw Buzzy Shell helmets to hit coins, while normal Buzzy Beetles drop from the ceiling to destroy their platform.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 06:35, February 26, 2025 (EST)
:There are some other, subtler differences: the helmet shells also cannot wake back up into their enemy forms of course, and the helmets also cannot be placed upside down like the enemies can, which is mainly relevant to the Spiny. This last one is a lot more pedantic, but occupied Buzzy/Spiny Shells also cannot have parachutes, as jumping on them or eating them with Yoshi to make them hide breaks any parachute the Buzzy/Spiny already had.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 06:35, February 26, 2025 (EST)
::Full and empty Koopa Shells were in ''Super Mario World'' with mildly different properties, and we don't split those. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:45, February 26, 2025 (EST)
:::Those shells are interchangeable, tough. An Unshelled Koopa can jump into an empty shell, and Koopas can be kicked out of their shells. On the other hand, there is no way to put a Buzzy into a hollow Buzzy Shell, or take one out of its shell and wear that shell as a helmet. They function 100% separately.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:53, February 26, 2025 (EST)
{{@|Hewer}} I think the comparison to Koopa Shell in ''3D World'' and the Blue Shell is unfair, those shells function consistently one way or another in each game, all Koopa Shells in ''SMB'' are purely kickable, while all Koopa Shells in ''3D World'' are rideable. All Blue Shells in ''SMW'' are the shells of Blue Koopa Troopas, while all Blue Shells in ''NSMB'' are power ups. Buzzy Shells and Spiny Shells in SMM do not follow this logic, both forms co-exist in the exact same game, and I think that warrants distinction.--[[User:PopitTart|PopitTart]] ([[User talk:PopitTart|talk]]) 18:59, February 26, 2025 (EST)
:The same subject doing multiple things in one game isn't completely unheard of either, and there's non-split variants like the Spike Tops Arend mentioned. The point stands that being able to be worn doesn't make something fundamentally different, whether it's in the same game or otherwise. Also, I want to reiterate my point about the Buzzy Shell helmet being the justification for that article's existence - why would non-helmet appearances of a Buzzy Beetle's shell even be split from Buzzy Beetle at all? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:09, February 27, 2025 (EST)