Editing Category talk:Characters from other Nintendo games

Isn't this category exactly the same as 3rd Party Characters?

No. This is for Link, Zelda, and those guys. 3rd party is pacman, solid snake, final fantasy characters in nintendo games.[[User:HK-47|<font size="4">H</font><font size="1">K</font>]]

==How to tell if a game is 3rd party==

3rd Party: any character that creates a link to a different system. (ex. FF=PS2)

non-3rd Party: any character (ex. Link) made by the same company (in this case, Nintendo) that appears in another game starring another series charcter.(ex. Mario)

{{User:Maxlover2/sig| did that help?}}

What about second party? -- [[User: Sir Grodus|Sir Grodus]]

? {{User:Maxlover2/sig| there's a second party? 8( why hasn't anyone told ME about this "second party"?}}

==Should Pokemon be on this list==

Pokemon isn't a game made by Nintendo although it was published by Nintendo it was made by game freak inc. does that still put them on this list {{User|Mrblob1012}}

Nintendo owns Pokémon, so they belong. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 13:30, 10 August 2013 (EDT)

== Remove bosses from SMB2 ==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|cancelled}}
I don't understand why we include only bosses from ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]''. Any enemies including [[Shy Guy]] didn't have this category. Why [[Birdo]] considered to character from other Nintendo games?

'''Proposer''': {{User|Windy}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 30, 2023, 23:59 GMT<br>
'''Date withdrawn:''' April 22, 2023, 08:12 GMT

====Support====
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Fair option. SMB2 became a full part of the ''Mario'' franchise.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Super Mario Bros. 2 characters are Mario characters.
<s>#{{User|Swallow}} Since Doki Doki Panic was the basis of Super Mario Bros. 2 and nearly everything in it became very recurrant throughout the Mario franchise, I wouldn't mind making an exception to it.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Platform}} All the DDP bosses have become fully absorbed into the ''Mario'' franchise that they're more associated with ''Mario'' than their original game. The intro should be changed to "This category '''''excludes''''' bosses from ''Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic''."</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Yo'ster}} Doki Doki Panic has never been re-released due to Nintendo not owning the Fuji TV characters and has, for all intents and purposes, been a Mario game in Japan since Super Mario USA's release in 1992. Platform's crossed out solution below is fine too.</s>

====Oppose====
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} While these characters have become part of the ''Mario'' series, it is a fact that they were introduced in a non-''Mario'' game. Let's not ''Mario''wash here. Also, we should include Shy Guys and other ''SMB2''  enemies in this category.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} This proposal doesn't make any real argument why there should be an exception here, and I don't see a reason to exclude them. The reason Shy Guys and other enemies aren't currently included is because this is specifically a character category, but it could be reworked in the future.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Wikiboy and Waluigi Time.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I can't argue with the idea that these characters have been effectively assimilated by the ''Mario'' franchise--the sheer number of ''Mario'' media they appeared in has long driven that point home, to say nothing of the fact that some have been explicitly billed as "Super Mario" characters [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (1-500)|as recently as 2018]]--but we can't alter their history. Indeed, they debuted in a non-''Mario'' game. I suppose the category could be retitled as "Characters '''originating''' in other Nintendo games" just so it can dispel any shred of ambiguity.
#{{User|Platform}} I've changed my mind. ''[[Greenhouse]]'' should also be added to the category's description due to [[Stanley]]. This game is also [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Historically_significant|historically significant]] that it warrants inclusion. My recommended wording is "This category also includes characters that debuted from the historically significant games of ''Green House'' and ''Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic''."
#{{User|Swallow}} The statement on the page has now been rewritten and I also now agree with that the opposition has said on the matter. We certainly can't change our fate there.

====Comments====
@Windy Why didn't you vote on this proposal? [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 11:58, April 16, 2023 (EDT)
:The author does not participate in the proposal. [[User:Windy|Windy]] ([[User talk:Windy|talk]]) 08:29, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::Yes they do. The proposer always votes on the support option upon the proposal being created. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 08:30, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::Technically, the proposer can vote on any option they wish or choose not to vote at all. There's nothing stopping a proposer from participating in their own proposal, they're generally expected to support their own proposal and to respond to criticism if necessary. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:50, April 18, 2023 (EDT)

The category page lays out: "Nintendo characters who are not part of the Mario franchise but have appeared in it or in related crossovers."; we probably need to rewrite this if this proposal fails. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:50, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:Done. I'm hazy on whether "originate in" is grammatically correct though, so I request some intervention in that regard. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 18:58, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::Seems fine. {{User:Mario/sig}} 18:58, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::Shouldn't we wait for the deadline to see if the proposal passes or fails before messing with the description of the category? So far, we have a tie. And the proposer didn't even vote! [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:31, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::::It doesn't really matter, regardless of the proposal outcome the new wording is accurate and clearer, and nothing that's been modified is in the scope of this proposal anyway. ("not part of the Mario franchise but have appeared in it" reads like a contradiction) --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 19:53, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
I'm going to rescind my vote on this and just stay neutral. I wouldn't mind removing them as they're undoubtedly Mario characters now, but it'd probably be better to just edit the current category to be more specific/consistent like other editors have suggested. --[[User:Yo&#39;ster|Yo&#39;ster]] ([[User talk:Yo&#39;ster|talk]]) 07:49, April 21, 2023 (EDT)

==Include all characters that originated from ''Doki Doki Panic''==
{{Settled TPP}}
{{Proposal outcome|failed|4-5|do not include}}
The last proposal was canceled because they changed their minds. But this time I'll try my proposal in a different way. How do you think about including all the characters that originated from ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]''? Besides Birdo and other bosses from ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'', we also include Shy Guy and any other enemies.

'''Proposer''': {{User|Windy}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <del>February 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT</del> Extended to March 1, 2024, 23:59 GMT

===Support===
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} We already have the bosses in this category, so might as well. Yes, several of them have become Mario staples, but the fact is that they were originally created for a completely unrelated Nintendo game. That's not something that can be changed, no matter how many Mario games they appear in. Let's not be purposefully inaccurate here just because it feels weird.
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} I think this makes sense because the enemies made their first appearance in that game.
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} Per WT.
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} All these enemies are ''in'' the ''Mario'' franchise, but ''from Doki Doki Panic''. I feel like this is pretty open-and-shut to me. Just to be clear, I agree with the points about whether species from other games should be given their own category separate from the characters, but I don't think that's completely relevant to this proposal (should be its own proposal really), so it has no bearing on my vote.

===Oppose===
#{{User|Super Mario RPG}} Their origin as ''Doki Doki Panic'' characters have long since become historical. They're ''Super Mario'' characters and enemies, full stop.
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} <s>Per Camwoodstock.</s> Per my comments below.
#{{User|MegaBowser64}} Per all
#{{User|ReeceeYT}} Per all
<s>#{{User|Camwoodstock}} This category already needs some help considering how hopelessly clogged it is with Smash redirects (and [[List of Smash Taunt characters]], which is just there directly), and being real here, putting a bunch of Doki Doki Panic characters that have since been grandfathered into the Mario franchise with absolutely zero questions would probably only serve to hurt this category even more. We're already wondering about how practical this category even is with all the Smash redirects--whether these get added or not, we're still even wondering if this category is worth keeping in this state...</s>

===Comments===
The scope of this proposal is vague. Are we just voting on whether or not to include ''Doki Doki Panic''{{'}}s enemies, or would this proposal failing lead to the bosses being removed as well? If it's just the former, then wouldn't it be a better idea to either broaden this category to include species or create a "Category:Species from other Nintendo games"? [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 18:36, February 9, 2024 (EST)

While making [[:Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 bosses]] a subcategory of this wouldn't work because of [[Clawgrip]], couldn't we just make [[:Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 enemies]] a subcategory instead? (Though, that category has Category:Super Mario Bros. 2 bosses as a subcategory, so...) [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 12:49, February 10, 2024 (EST)

I do want to point out to the opposition that [[Stanley]] is included in this category as well due to his role in ''Donkey Kong 3'' being predated by a near-identical role in the generic Game & Watch game ''Greenhouse''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:29, February 14, 2024 (EST)
:...we genuinely cannot tell if this is meant to be a point for or ''against'' the existence of this category, though that might be because we were considering asking what articles would even be left in this article without the copious Smash redirects, and our current mental list is "The SMB2 characters, and Stanley the Bugman." {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 21:51, February 14, 2024 (EST)

On the above comment--we went ahead and did the tallying ourselves, truth be told we were very bored and needed to kill time while waiting for something, and we figured this was the best way to do it--and this is what the category would look like if we peeled away all the Smash redirects:
* The ''SMB2'' bosses (minus Clawgrip)
* Various ''SMB2'' characters, if this passes
* [[Balloon Fighter]]: Because of a few WarioWare appearances.
* [[Betty]]: Because of ''WW:MMG''.
* [[Bubbles (Clu Clu Land)]]: Because of ''DK:KOS''
* [[Cicada]]: Because of more modern WarioWare games.
* [[Fox]]: Because of various magazine comics.
* [[Inkling]]: Because of ''MK8D''.
* [[Kirby]]: Because of an old edutainment film, and plenty of comics.
* [[Link]]: Because of an old edutainment ''game'', plenty of comics, and some cameos in games like ''SMRPG''.
* [[Mad Scienstein]]: Because of a few Wario Land appearances.
* [[Mii]]: Regularly playable in various ''Mario'' games.
* [[Mr. Game & Watch]]: Because of G&WG4.
* [[Mr. Resetti]]: Because of... Being a stage hazard in a track in ''MK8'', we think? This article needs some work, they extremely buried the lede here.
* [[Octopus (character)]]: Because of ''WW:DIY''.
* [[R.O.B.]]: Because of a few WarioWare appearances.
* [[Stanley]]: Already discussed, he became the star of DK3 and adjacent games.
* [[Starfy]]: Because of ''SPP'' and a crossover with Wario in one of his own games. Technically, this is a disambiguation page!
* [[Villager]]: Because of ''MK8'' and a few WarioWare appearances. We forgot these guys were in that game.
* [[Whispy Woods]]: Because of a magazine comic.

'''ADDENDUMS FROM THE REPLIES BELOW:''' [[Isabelle]], [[Snowboy]], [[Pikmin]], [[Deku Baba]] and [[Keese]] should also probably be here--a few of those aren't already in here, but it's probably worth adding them.

...'Course, had we looked, we'd have realized this is roughly the same links on the Crossover characters navigation template, plus a Starfy. Whoops! Truth be told, while we still worry a ''little bit'' about including whole species in here--this was something that only just crossed our minds, mind you, so if you wish to oppose for that, do as you must--we think if the category was maybe more like what we listed above (e.g. ''not cluttered to heck and back with Smash redirects''), we could understand a move like this.

We're revoking our vote, but we're definitely not supporting due to the mentioned concerns about including entire species--consider this changing to an "abstain" if you will. Ultimately, our current (major) gripes are not with what we're voting to include, but with what we're ''already'' including, so it feels a little unfair to oppose on that alone. Perhaps that's something for a future proposal...? {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:26, February 14, 2024 (EST)
:[[Snowboy]] as well, since that's inexplicably not merged to [[snowman]]. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 23:34, February 14, 2024 (EST)
::<s>...how did we miss the one that's been giving us pain as we've been playing new leaf</s> Shoot, right, Snowboy would be included in this too. For what it's worth, Snowboy is ''technically'' distinct from the various ''Mario'' series Snowmen, in the sense that he's his own character in the source material. While he is functionally identical to the stock Mario snowmen, well, so is Mr. Resetti being identical to the [[Monty Mole]], and that is a merge nobody would support. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 23:41, February 14, 2024 (EST)
:::My saying that should be merged has more to do with most other languages just calling them snowmen anyway, especially since it's a generic subject with no "main" design in the ''Mario''-related games. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 10:02, February 15, 2024 (EST)
::[[Talk:Hyrule Circuit#Create pages for the Zelda elements, take II|Ahem]] (and also [[Isabelle]] would be in the category too). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:06, February 15, 2024 (EST)
:::...Okay, ''how did we miss Isabelle''. We don't actually know if that's just an us thing, or if maybe trying to skim a category completely inundated with Smash redirects was a fool's errand. Keese isn't in here, so we understand that one. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:20, February 15, 2024 (EST)
:Aside from the ''Doki Doki Panic'' enemies and maybe the [[Subcon (species)|Subcons]] if this proposal passes, the only other Nintendo crossover species with their own pages — to the best of my knowledge — are the [[Deku Baba]], [[Keese]], and [[Pikmin]]. (Unless you want to include ''The Legend of Zelda'' enemies based on ''Super Mario'' ones like [[Mega Thwomp]], but that's not quite the same situation as a crossover or guest appearance.) [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 09:48, February 15, 2024 (EST)
::Well, the category title just says "from other Nintendo games" without specifying crossovers, and [[Starfy]] gets to be in the category despite never having a major crossover appearance (Super Princess Peach doesn't count because [[Starfish]] is its own page), so I don't think the Zelda enemies are out of the question. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:06, February 15, 2024 (EST)
:::Starfy hasn't had a major crossover appearance in the Mario games... [[Densetsu no Stafy 3|But Wario sure had a major crossover appearance with him]]. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 10:20, February 15, 2024 (EST)
::::Yeah, that's basically what I was getting at with why the Mario-based enemies we cover that only appeared in Zelda games could count for this category. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:25, February 15, 2024 (EST)

Generally it doesn't seem to be completely consistent right now whether species count for this category (e.g. [[Snowboy]]'s here, [[Keese]] isn't), which is the main reason I'm not supporting this proposal, not because of the origin of the Doki Doki Panic characters (if we've already decided to put the bosses in this category then it only makes sense to consider these the same). If this proposal passes then it'll make sense to add all of the relevant species, and if it fails then we could take out the few already here (possibly even make "Species from other Nintendo games" its own category since there seem to be more than I initially thought). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 14:33, February 15, 2024 (EST)

I guess I'll finally throw my two cents into this: I always found it a bit odd that (most of) the SMB2 bosses are included here. I get it, they originated from ''Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic'', so they're ''technically'' from a non-Mario game, but at the same time, that's also the only major non-Mario appearance they have. Their later appearances are in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' and remakes, other Mario games (more major for some than others), and whenever they do reappear outside of a Mario game, the non-Mario game makes sure that their appearance is Mario-adjacent. In other words, they have been integrated into the Super Mario franchise since their debut in ''Super Mario Bros. 2'', starting with ''Super Mario World'', while the Yume Kōjō '87 event that ''Doki Doki Panic'' was made for is not really a thing anymore. [[Birdo]] for instance sticks out like a sore thumb because she makes ''constant'' appearances in the ''Mario'' spinoff games even to this day.<br>But what makes their inclusion even weirder for me is the ''ex''clusion of the various enemies that ''also'' debuted in ''Doki Doki Panic''. Like, why is Birdo here when [[Shy Guy]] is not, even though Shy Guy ''also'' makes constant appearances in the Mario franchise to this day? Logically, because these are ''species'', not ''characters'', hence the exclusion of [[Deku Baba]], but then why isn't there a category for this, and why does this category include the redirect [[Metroid (species)]] then? And aren't [[Inkling]]s and [[Snowboy]]s ''technically'' a species too?<br>If you ask me, either include ''all'' the SMB2 characters (sans Clawgrip), or don't include 'em at all. If you decide to include some characters because of a technicality, then you can't exclude the others just because they're species instead of characters, when the category itself ''already includes species'' (which, btw, [[:Category:Third-party characters]] also does: hello, [[Moogle]] and [[Platypunk]]). It only makes the whole decision look awkward. {{User:Arend/sig}} 14:48, February 18, 2024 (EST)
:I have to agree with everything you said. While we're on the subject of distinction between species and character, the [[Behemoth]] and [[Behemoth King]] are also only represented by a single individual in their sole ''Super Mario''-related appearance, ''[[Mario Sports Mix]]'' — yet we're currently treating them as species rather than characters unlike the playable Square Enix species representatives. [[User:SolemnStormcloud|SolemnStormcloud]] ([[User talk:SolemnStormcloud|talk]]) 15:30, February 19, 2024 (EST)

On the note of non-''Mario'' characters with articles here based on their appearances in ''Mario'' games... why doesn't Samus have an article? She's made an ingame appearance in [[Super Mario RPG]] and a multitude of at least notable cameos to deserve one. --[[User:OmegaRuby|OmegaRuby]] ([[User talk:OmegaRuby|talk]]) 09:28, February 29, 2024 (EST)
:I think her role in SMRPG was considered too minor by the user that proposed the original fighter cuts. You could always make a proposal to reinstate her article though, that happened to Mr. Game & Watch. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 10:37, February 29, 2024 (EST)

I think my perspective on what "counts" as part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise is a little more fluid than other people. To me, through the adoption of ''[[Super Mario Bros. 2]]'' into the mainline games, its influence, introduction of characters, and comparable mechanics to its sister platformers, ''[[Yume Kōjō: Doki Doki Panic]]'' '''is''' a game in the ''Super Mario'' franchise, so in my broad understanding, it would not be accurate to suggest the characters debuted in a game outside of it. If ''Doki Doki Panic'' is not part of the ''Super Mario'' franchise, then why do we support an article for it on the Super Mario Wiki? - [[User:Nintendo101|Nintendo101]] ([[User talk:Nintendo101|talk]]) 21:35, February 29, 2024 (EST)
:Historical significance. Note that we ''don't'' have specific articles for Imajin and co. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 22:13, February 29, 2024 (EST)

Since the one-vote difference is almost a tie, it would be better to extend it for another week. [[User:Windy|Windy]] ([[User talk:Windy|talk]]) 06:25, March 3, 2024 (EST)