Talk:Rocky Wrench: Difference between revisions

Talk:Rocky Wrench (edit)

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Doc von Schmeltwick

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 == Koopa ==
-{{species-infobox
+{{species infobox
 |related=[[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|Monty]]
 |relatives=[[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]<br />[[Monty Mole]]
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 Should wrenches get their own page? Also did Rocky Wrench ever have a voice actor? They made noises in Super Mario 3D Land and I think MarIo Kart 7 or maybe Tour as well. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:12, December 11, 2021 (EST)
 :We don't need pages for every little thing; there are tons and tons of enemy projectiles we haven't given pages to. I don't think there was a voice actor credited for them either. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:37, December 12, 2021 (EST)
+== The return - treat Monty Mole as derivative of Rocky Wrench ==
+{{TPP}}
+Ahh, this talk page. My old stomping ground. So many memories here, some good, some bad. But enough about that. I'm older, calmer, and marginally less pretentious than I was back then.
+I think it's high time we started considering Rocky Wrench as the origin of Monty Mole. Since my last proposal several years back on the matter, there have been numerous changes in how we classify relations across the board on the site, the gigaleak showed several hitherto-unseen intermediate designs for this enemy (often coexisting with Monty), and concept art for SMO and the movie, and the in-game appearance in the Booster Course Pass, has reverted Rocky Wrench to its original "shelled mole that isn't quite a Monty Mole playing dress-up" design.
+Some people wanted to do the opposite and treat Rocky as derivative of Monty, but that doesn't make sense when Rocky came first, even if one has a more "basic" design - the same, after all, can be said of [[Unshelled Koopa Troopa]]s, which post-date ordinary Troopas. Notably, ''Super Mario Maker'' treats Rocky as the base object and Monty as its alternate, though ''2'' splits them into two icons. [[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|Their rough]] [[Undergrunt|analogues]] from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' also treat the wrench-thrower as the basis for the burrower.
+Now it is clear that Monty Mole took inspiration from Rocky Wrench. Rocky Wrench's JP name, "Poo," basically means "Honk" (since they're usually in vehicles), while Monty Mole's JP name, "Choropoo," means "Darting-around Honk," so a Rocky Wrench variant that runs around. The gigaleak has shown us that Rocky Wrenches were considered for SMW (using edits of their SMB3 sprites) and SMW2 (using new, Monty-ish-shaped sprites), so it's clear the design retrofitting actually happened before MKDS, yet remained subtle until NSMBW had a full-on model-reuse.
+As for the "Koopa" issue: there are now several examples of shelled enemies that - as far as we currently know - are not considered Koopas/turtles themselves, such as [[Conkdor]]s and [[Skedaddler]]s. As such, I don't think we should definitively say that the current iteration of shelled Rockies are Koopas, but rather, that they were originally designed to be and treated as Koopas/turtles (and thus still ''derived'' from them), which is unambiguously true no matter what.
+'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br>
+'''Deadline''': May 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT
+===Support===
+#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all I have said and done in all of those above sections.
+#{{user|Nintendo101}} - I think prior discussions were too bogged-down on the idea of Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles as creatures to be taxonomically categorized, rather than characters designed by people not bound by such limitations. It also did not help that Monty Moles are generally more recurring in the franchise, and that the redesigns for Rocky Wrenches in ''NSMBW'' onward essentially looked like "Monty Mole, but with more stuff". Their history and shared Japanese names are particularly revealing, and site policy has been amended to promote conceptual and design relatedness in infoboxes, not just taxonomy. (As an aside, I do hope Nintendo continues to use the Super Mario Bros. 3 design for Rocky Wrench in the future, even if just occasionally. I've always been a fan.) EDIT: I also agree it is too declarative to say they are Koopas in the infobox.
+#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal.
+#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Looks are deceiving when Koopas are involved.
+#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all.
+#{{User|Mister Wu}} Wait, we didn’t yet? Alas, the decision would have been 200% easier if they didn’t design the Montys as actual moles, but we can’t always have nice things.
+#{{User|Blinker}} Per all.
+#{{User|Biggestman}} Per all.
+#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall (collectively)
+===Oppose===
+===Comments===
+You were supposed to be done making proposals on this. You just couldn't leave it alone, could ya, Doc von Smellsick? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:42, April 20, 2024 (EDT)
+I agree that the whole Rocky Wrench = Koopa thing is an outdated, possibly retconned concept (much like how the Koopalings are no longer considered Bowser's kids). Heck, their iteration from NSMBW onwards doesn't even wear a shell, making the whole claim of them still being turtles at all dubious.<br>Not sure about Montys being variants of Rockys, though. It makes sense in the way that the JP name of Monty Mole treats it like a variant to Rocky Wrench, but given that Rocky Wrench hadn't appeared for a long time until NSMBW with its new Monty-inspired design while Montys has recurred way more often prior to this, it's like Nintendo also wanted to retcon the relation between Montys and Rockys in a similar way as they did with Bowser and the Koopalings, by turning Rockys into variants of Montys (by turning them into Montys with goggles). They got yet another new design in BCP Wave 6 though (for some reason), which, much like their MKDS redesign, harkens back to their classic design, so we'll have to see if it recurs at a later point. Either way, I'll be abstaining for now. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
+:I'm also abstaining from voting, but I do think it's too soon to say if the design in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe will be a permenant change. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:26, April 23, 2024 (EDT)
+::I'm uncertain if it will be, but it coupled with the concept art for SMO and the movie indicate to me that they are edging away from the NSMBW design in some manner. Possibly relating to the more classic-style design changes in ''Wonder'', rather than building off the GCN-era designs anymore, but that's getting off-topic. It shows that the NSMBW design is also not permanent or this wouldn't have happened at all, I guess I'm saying. I'd been planning on this proposal for a while, the BCP thing just made it feel more validated. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:33, April 23, 2024 (EDT)