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Talk:Rocky Wrench: Difference between revisions
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#{{User|RandomYoshi}} - Per B.wilson and Bop. If reliable information from Nintendo is not present on the subject, then why change it to a fanon interputation? | #{{User|RandomYoshi}} - Per B.wilson and Bop. If reliable information from Nintendo is not present on the subject, then why change it to a fanon interputation? | ||
#{{User|Commander Code-8}} Per all. | #{{User|Commander Code-8}} Per all. | ||
#{{User| | #{{User|2021snow}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Spidey665}} - '''Strong Oppose''': Rocky Wrenches are NOT Monty Moles. We work to be a ''good'' wiki, not a ''bad'' wiki with info without sources. Like Wikipedia, we also try to be a reliable source. | #{{User|Spidey665}} - '''Strong Oppose''': Rocky Wrenches are NOT Monty Moles. We work to be a ''good'' wiki, not a ''bad'' wiki with info without sources. Like Wikipedia, we also try to be a reliable source. | ||
#{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all above. If there's no source saying they are Monty Moles, it's speculation. | #{{User|MrConcreteDonkey}} - Per all above. If there's no source saying they are Monty Moles, it's speculation. | ||
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==Why?== | ==Why?== | ||
Why are these classified as Koopas? They definitely don't look like Koopas, and the shell was most recently part of their design in the non-NSMBU styles in SMM2, which was most likely a preservation of the design detail they had ''at the time''. Either way, I'm confused. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 20:30, November 7, 2019 (EST) | Why are these classified as Koopas? They definitely don't look like Koopas, and the shell was most recently part of their design in the non-NSMBU styles in SMM2, which was most likely a preservation of the design detail they had ''at the time''. Either way, I'm confused. {{User:TheDarkStar/sig}} 20:30, November 7, 2019 (EST) | ||
:You misunderstand what the infobox ''means''. "Variant of"/"parent species" means they were conceptualized based off a different entity, not that they are a "subspecies" or whatever. ''Poo'' was initially visualized as a member of ''[[Koopa (species)|Kame-zoku]]'' and became actually mammalian ''later''; ''[[Monty Mole|Choropoo]]'' was created based off ''Poo'', but running (hence the names; "Poo" is a "honk" noise, as they are mechanics, while "choro" means running around crazily). Regardless, ''Poo'' obviously aren't based off something that came years later. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:35, November 7, 2019 (EST) | :You misunderstand what the infobox ''means''. "Variant of"/"parent species" means they were conceptualized based off a different entity, not that they are a "subspecies" or whatever. ''Poo'' was initially visualized as a member of ''[[Koopa (species)|Kame-zoku]]'' and became actually mammalian ''later''; ''[[Monty Mole|Choropoo]]'' was created based off ''Poo'', but running (hence the names; "Poo" is a "honk" noise, as they are mechanics, while "choro" means running around crazily). Regardless, ''Poo'' obviously aren't based off something that came years later. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 20:35, November 7, 2019 (EST) | ||
::Another example of what happened can be seen in [[Baby Bowser]]: when [[Bowser Jr.]] was introduced, his design clearly reminded that of Baby Bowser, and effectively soon the latter was redesigned to become almost identical to Bowser Jr.. Here, something similar seems to have happened: Monty Moles (''ChoroPoo'') are moles that were likely based on Rocky Wrenches (''Poo''), consequently the latter were eventually redesigned as moles to better resemble Monty Moles. So '''Baby Bowser → Bowser Jr. → Bowser Jr.-like Baby Bowser''' and '''Rocky Wrench → Monty Mole → Monty Mole-like Rocky Wrench'''. In any case, multiple sources - even English ones - clearly stated that in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' they were mole-like turtles, hence that odd line in the infobox.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:27, November 8, 2019 (EST) | ::Another example of what happened can be seen in [[Baby Bowser]]: when [[Bowser Jr.]] was introduced, his design clearly reminded that of Baby Bowser, and effectively soon the latter was redesigned to become almost identical to Bowser Jr.. Here, something similar seems to have happened: Monty Moles (''ChoroPoo'') are moles that were likely based on Rocky Wrenches (''Poo''), consequently the latter were eventually redesigned as moles to better resemble Monty Moles. So '''Baby Bowser → Bowser Jr. → Bowser Jr.-like Baby Bowser''' and '''Rocky Wrench → Monty Mole → Monty Mole-like Rocky Wrench'''. In any case, multiple sources - even English ones - clearly stated that in ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' they were mole-like turtles, hence that odd line in the infobox.—[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 10:27, November 8, 2019 (EST) | ||
Late reply, but since the "variant" parameter indicates what the design was based on rather than any kind of biological definition, I think that's a good reason to list both Koopas and Monty Moles as parent species. Although it's true that the ''original'' design was intended to be a Koopa, the current design is unambiguously based on Monty Moles (although the latter were technically based on the former, as indicated by their Japanese names). Considering that Rocky Wrenches don't even have shells in most modern games, I'd say that's proof they're not even based on Koopas anymore, regardless of what might have been intended when they were first introduced. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 17:57, September 10, 2020 (EDT) | |||
:Problem is, by definition, it can't be a variant of something that's already a variant of it. Monty Mole was based on Rocky Wrench, which was later, let's say, ''retrofitted'' to look more like Monty Mole. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 19:03, September 10, 2020 (EDT) | |||
::That's true. Honestly, I'd prefer listing Monty Mole as the variant since it's more accurate, but I'm not sure how many people would be on board with something that extreme. {{User:Niiue/sig}} 19:11, September 10, 2020 (EDT) | |||
== Koopa == | == Koopa == | ||
{{species | {{species infobox | ||
|related=[[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|Monty]] | |related=[[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|Monty]] | ||
|relatives=[[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]<br />[[Monty Mole]] | |relatives=[[Koopa (species)|Koopa]]<br />[[Monty Mole]] | ||
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[[User:Pokemon|Pokemon]] ([[User talk:Pokemon|talk]]) 15:14, June 21, 2020 (EDT) | [[User:Pokemon|Pokemon]] ([[User talk:Pokemon|talk]]) 15:14, June 21, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:No. It was explicitly created to be one, and how we do species hierarchy is about what inspired what, ergo that would be disingenuous. Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole are the exception for the sole reason that while Monty was inspired by Rocky, details initially given to Monty in 64DS were later given to Rocky, due to Monty becoming more recurring. Now, I would not be opposed to having both a "variant" and "derived" field on the infobox, since that could cover more bases without semantics getting in the way, but that might get a little complex. Admittedly, this is a confusing case, but the fact remains it was created explicitly as a subtype, regardless of how they are currently depicted. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:53, June 21, 2020 (EDT) | :No. It was explicitly created to be one, and how we do species hierarchy is about what inspired what, ergo that would be disingenuous. Rocky Wrench and Monty Mole are the exception for the sole reason that while Monty was inspired by Rocky, details initially given to Monty in 64DS were later given to Rocky, due to Monty becoming more recurring. Now, I would not be opposed to having both a "variant" and "derived" field on the infobox, since that could cover more bases without semantics getting in the way, but that might get a little complex. Admittedly, this is a confusing case, but the fact remains it was created explicitly as a subtype, regardless of how they are currently depicted. It's why Frost Piranha is considered a variant of Putrid Piranha instead of ordinary Piranha Plant. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:53, June 21, 2020 (EDT) | ||
== European Portuguese Name == | |||
This page lists "Cachorrinho de Capacete" (Helmet Whelp) as the European Portuguese, but the modern name seems to be "Toupeira Rocky" (Rocky Mole). So where did the other name come from? {{Unsigned|85.243.109.179}} | |||
== Origami Rocky Wrench == | |||
Should Origami Rocky Wrenches get their own page since they have differences between normal Rocky Wrenches? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 19:36, September 28, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:We haven't split any origami enemies from their regular counterparts since they're just the game's version of these enemies that still behave the same way and are still named as "normal" enemies, so definitely not. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 19:39, September 28, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Any other TAoSMB3 episodes with Rocky Wrenches == | |||
Do Rocky Wrenches appear in any other episodes of The Adventures of Super Mario Bros 3 besides the ones mentioned on the Rocky Wrench page? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:13, September 28, 2021 (EDT) | |||
I don’t get why nobody is answering my question but I was also wondering if Rocky Wrench ever appeared in Mario & Sonic at the Tokyo 2020 Olypmic Games? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 15:58, October 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:If they're not already covered on the article, then it's most likely they're not in these material. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 16:00, October 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
Also the question I said above about the AoSMB3 episodes? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 18:23, October 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
If they're not already covered on the article, then it's most likely they're not in these material. | |||
:...still applies. The whole series is on YouTube, so if you're ''that'' curious, you can check for yourself instead of asking repeatedly (this is a subtle method of asking you to stop; I know you're eager, but please calm down a bit and let people work at their own paces). [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 18:32, October 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
Ok thanks for letting me know [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 19:59, October 1, 2021 (EDT) | |||
How come Warioware Twisted was removed from the Rocky Wrench page? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 14:44, October 3, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:Ask [[User Talk:TheRaoul1992|the person who removed it]], not here. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 14:54, October 3, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Pūko == | |||
In volume 46 of Super Mario-kun there is a female Rocky Wrench/Monty Mole named Pūko (プー子). In the first chapter she appears as a Rocky Wrench (given the fact that she has the Rocky Wrench goggles) but in the Mole Festival chapter she is shown to be a Monty Mole (we know that the two moles are the same since they share the same name and that she also mentions AKG48 which the Rocky Wrench one is a member of). So would Pūko be both a Monty Mole and Rocky Wrench? Could this also mean that Rocky Wrenches are Monty Mole variants and not just relatives to them since we have a character which is shown to be both? [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 14:09, October 20, 2021 (EDT) | |||
:I maintain that Monty Moles are Rocky Wrench variants since the latter came first and has a more basic lang-of-origin name. Anyways, I'd just say she's a Rocky Wrench who removed her goggles. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:04, October 20, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Mr. Rocky Wrench == | |||
Should the Rocky Wrench in Up, Up and a Koopa get its own page? They are referred to as Mr. Rocky Wrench by Toad and have somewhat of a major role. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:55, October 21, 2021 (EDT) | |||
== Full body Rocky Wrenches in Sticker Star == | |||
In the spritesheet for Rocky Wrench in Paper Mario: Sticker Star (https://www.spriters-resource.com/3ds/papermariostickerstar/sheet/65001/), there are feet sprites given to them. So are these sprites unused, or can Rocky Wrenches be seen with a full body if someone uses a very obscure method (like how Mawful Moles have obscure sprites of them out of the ground). [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 17:21, November 9, 2021 (EST) | |||
Don’t worry, the answers to this question is in my talk page. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 23:19, November 9, 2021 (EST) | |||
== Wrench page and Voice Actor == | |||
Should wrenches get their own page? Also did Rocky Wrench ever have a voice actor? They made noises in Super Mario 3D Land and I think MarIo Kart 7 or maybe Tour as well. [[User:MontyMoleLoreMaster|MontyMoleLoreMaster]] ([[User talk:MontyMoleLoreMaster|talk]]) 22:12, December 11, 2021 (EST) | |||
:We don't need pages for every little thing; there are tons and tons of enemy projectiles we haven't given pages to. I don't think there was a voice actor credited for them either. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 06:37, December 12, 2021 (EST) | |||
== The return - treat Monty Mole as derivative of Rocky Wrench == | |||
{{TPP}} | |||
Ahh, this talk page. My old stomping ground. So many memories here, some good, some bad. But enough about that. I'm older, calmer, and marginally less pretentious than I was back then. | |||
I think it's high time we started considering Rocky Wrench as the origin of Monty Mole. Since my last proposal several years back on the matter, there have been numerous changes in how we classify relations across the board on the site, the gigaleak showed several hitherto-unseen intermediate designs for this enemy (often coexisting with Monty), and concept art for SMO and the movie, and the in-game appearance in the Booster Course Pass, has reverted Rocky Wrench to its original "shelled mole that isn't quite a Monty Mole playing dress-up" design. | |||
Some people wanted to do the opposite and treat Rocky as derivative of Monty, but that doesn't make sense when Rocky came first, even if one has a more "basic" design - the same, after all, can be said of [[Unshelled Koopa Troopa]]s, which post-date ordinary Troopas. Notably, ''Super Mario Maker'' treats Rocky as the base object and Monty as its alternate, though ''2'' splits them into two icons. [[Monty (Super Mario Galaxy)|Their rough]] [[Undergrunt|analogues]] from ''Super Mario Galaxy'' also treat the wrench-thrower as the basis for the burrower. | |||
Now it is clear that Monty Mole took inspiration from Rocky Wrench. Rocky Wrench's JP name, "Poo," basically means "Honk" (since they're usually in vehicles), while Monty Mole's JP name, "Choropoo," means "Darting-around Honk," so a Rocky Wrench variant that runs around. The gigaleak has shown us that Rocky Wrenches were considered for SMW (using edits of their SMB3 sprites) and SMW2 (using new, Monty-ish-shaped sprites), so it's clear the design retrofitting actually happened before MKDS, yet remained subtle until NSMBW had a full-on model-reuse. | |||
As for the "Koopa" issue: there are now several examples of shelled enemies that - as far as we currently know - are not considered Koopas/turtles themselves, such as [[Conkdor]]s and [[Skedaddler]]s. As such, I don't think we should definitively say that the current iteration of shelled Rockies are Koopas, but rather, that they were originally designed to be and treated as Koopas/turtles (and thus still ''derived'' from them), which is unambiguously true no matter what. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': May 4, 2024, 23:59 GMT | |||
===Support=== | |||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Per all I have said and done in all of those above sections. | |||
#{{user|Nintendo101}} - I think prior discussions were too bogged-down on the idea of Rocky Wrenches and Monty Moles as creatures to be taxonomically categorized, rather than characters designed by people not bound by such limitations. It also did not help that Monty Moles are generally more recurring in the franchise, and that the redesigns for Rocky Wrenches in ''NSMBW'' onward essentially looked like "Monty Mole, but with more stuff". Their history and shared Japanese names are particularly revealing, and site policy has been amended to promote conceptual and design relatedness in infoboxes, not just taxonomy. (As an aside, I do hope Nintendo continues to use the Super Mario Bros. 3 design for Rocky Wrench in the future, even if just occasionally. I've always been a fan.) EDIT: I also agree it is too declarative to say they are Koopas in the infobox. | |||
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Looks are deceiving when Koopas are involved. | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Mister Wu}} Wait, we didn’t yet? Alas, the decision would have been 200% easier if they didn’t design the Montys as actual moles, but we can’t always have nice things. | |||
#{{User|Blinker}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Biggestman}} Per all. | |||
#{{user|MegaBowser64}} Per all of yall (collectively) | |||
===Oppose=== | |||
===Comments=== | |||
You were supposed to be done making proposals on this. You just couldn't leave it alone, could ya, Doc von Smellsick? [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 21:42, April 20, 2024 (EDT) | |||
I agree that the whole Rocky Wrench = Koopa thing is an outdated, possibly retconned concept (much like how the Koopalings are no longer considered Bowser's kids). Heck, their iteration from NSMBW onwards doesn't even wear a shell, making the whole claim of them still being turtles at all dubious.<br>Not sure about Montys being variants of Rockys, though. It makes sense in the way that the JP name of Monty Mole treats it like a variant to Rocky Wrench, but given that Rocky Wrench hadn't appeared for a long time until NSMBW with its new Monty-inspired design while Montys has recurred way more often prior to this, it's like Nintendo also wanted to retcon the relation between Montys and Rockys in a similar way as they did with Bowser and the Koopalings, by turning Rockys into variants of Montys (by turning them into Montys with goggles). They got yet another new design in BCP Wave 6 though (for some reason), which, much like their MKDS redesign, harkens back to their classic design, so we'll have to see if it recurs at a later point. Either way, I'll be abstaining for now. {{User:Arend/sig}} 13:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT) | |||
:I'm also abstaining from voting, but I do think it's too soon to say if the design in Mario Kart 8 Deluxe will be a permenant change. {{User:Nightwicked Bowser/sig}} 15:26, April 23, 2024 (EDT) | |||
::I'm uncertain if it will be, but it coupled with the concept art for SMO and the movie indicate to me that they are edging away from the NSMBW design in some manner. Possibly relating to the more classic-style design changes in ''Wonder'', rather than building off the GCN-era designs anymore, but that's getting off-topic. It shows that the NSMBW design is also not permanent or this wouldn't have happened at all, I guess I'm saying. I'd been planning on this proposal for a while, the BCP thing just made it feel more validated. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:33, April 23, 2024 (EDT) | |||