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MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/57: Difference between revisions
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{{MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/Template | {{MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/Template}} | ||
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====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
I'll post the discord comments I made when the topic was brought up (also the proposal main text made it sound like i recommended the bowser's fury page to be like SMA2's when what happened is that BLOF brought it and the Super Mario All-Stars as examples of how those sections should be written and I opined I don,t think they work very well, and then brought up my own idea on how those sections should be done) | I'll post the discord comments I made when the topic was brought up (also the proposal main text made it sound like i recommended the bowser's fury page to be like SMA2's when what happened is that BLOF brought it and the Super Mario All-Stars as examples of how those sections should be written and I opined I don,t think they work very well, and then brought up my own idea on how those sections should be done) | ||
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*'''Significant, in-franchise appearance:''' Those appearances where a subject has a perceptible effect on the viewer's or player's experience--as a character, enemy, item, or setting. | *'''Significant, in-franchise appearance:''' Those appearances where a subject has a perceptible effect on the viewer's or player's experience--as a character, enemy, item, or setting. | ||
*'''Cameo appearances:''' Those appearances where a known subject shows up but does not affect the course of a story or the gameplay, instead serving as a small distraction or piece of fan-service for the viewer or player. (Simple mentions of a subject, without said subject making any physical appearance, are taken to be "cameos" in the context of this proposal, for the sake of brevity.) | *'''Cameo appearances:''' Those appearances where a known subject shows up but does not affect the course of a story or the gameplay, instead serving as a small distraction or piece of fan-service for the viewer or player. (Simple mentions of a subject, without said subject making any physical appearance, are taken to be "cameos" in the context of this proposal, for the sake of brevity.) | ||
*'''Appearances outside the home franchise:''' What it says on the tin: subjects appearing in media outside of their franchise or universe of origin. Many such appearances can be of a parodical or referential nature and not necessarily enabled or endorsed by the proprietary entity, and for those the wiki has already established coverage in the form of [[Lists of | *'''Appearances outside the home franchise:''' What it says on the tin: subjects appearing in media outside of their franchise or universe of origin. Many such appearances can be of a parodical or referential nature and not necessarily enabled or endorsed by the proprietary entity, and for those the wiki has already established coverage in the form of [[Lists of references|Lists of references]]. However, some of these appearances, third-party as they are, are indeed licensed for use and, where applicable, warrant being covered in some form on subject articles. | ||
Coverage for the first one, again, is firmly set in stone and disregarded by the proposal. As it's been well-established, if a Goomba kills you in a game, we make a section for that game on Goomba's article. The second and third ones are relevant here, with the third one commanding perhaps the most attention. As it stands, third-party appearances can be further assigned two scenarios: one in which we give the relevant fictional work [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|"guest"]]-type article coverage, and one in which we do not. | Coverage for the first one, again, is firmly set in stone and disregarded by the proposal. As it's been well-established, if a Goomba kills you in a game, we make a section for that game on Goomba's article. The second and third ones are relevant here, with the third one commanding perhaps the most attention. As it stands, third-party appearances can be further assigned two scenarios: one in which we give the relevant fictional work [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|"guest"]]-type article coverage, and one in which we do not. | ||
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====Only rename articles==== | ====Only rename articles==== | ||
====Only merge badge lists with respective clothing articles==== | ====Only merge badge lists with respective clothing articles==== | ||
====Do neither==== | ====Do neither==== | ||
====Comments==== | ====Comments==== | ||
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===Create a stat table template for karts in ''Mario Kart DS''=== | ===Create a stat table template for karts in ''Mario Kart DS''=== | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|8-0|create}} | {{ProposalOutcome|passed|8-0|create}} | ||
Though we use [[Template: | Though we use [[Template:MKW vehicle|this nice table template]] for the articles on the vehicles of ''[[Mario Kart Wii]]'', we give no such treatment for ''[[Mario Kart DS]]''{{'}}s karts; instead opting to directly list each stat on a range from 1 to 10. There are problems with this, however. | ||
Firstly, the stat values listed are rounded to the nearest .5; this results in stats being slightly inaccurate to how they are displayed on the kart select screen in the game. The most egregious example of this, in my opinion, is the [[Standard DB]]: Despite it having acceleration and handling stats just short of the maximum value (by ''one pixel'', in the case of the former), both stats are listed on its page as a perfect 10/10. | Firstly, the stat values listed are rounded to the nearest .5; this results in stats being slightly inaccurate to how they are displayed on the kart select screen in the game. The most egregious example of this, in my opinion, is the [[Standard DB]]: Despite it having acceleration and handling stats just short of the maximum value (by ''one pixel'', in the case of the former), both stats are listed on its page as a perfect 10/10. | ||
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::I'm guessing you don't want them displayed in bars like the in-game stats as they don't have an unified maximum value, correct? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 09:52, February 27, 2022 (EST) | ::I'm guessing you don't want them displayed in bars like the in-game stats as they don't have an unified maximum value, correct? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 09:52, February 27, 2022 (EST) | ||
:::You potentially can use bars, but you should first evaluate what you want to do with them: the bars whose length is proportional to the actual value will show small differences in stats like maximum speed, the bars that show the ranking of the kart with respect to that stat will show big differences even when the underlying stat doesn't change that much. The game menu uses a system similar to the latter.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 03:31, February 28, 2022 (EST) | :::You potentially can use bars, but you should first evaluate what you want to do with them: the bars whose length is proportional to the actual value will show small differences in stats like maximum speed, the bars that show the ranking of the kart with respect to that stat will show big differences even when the underlying stat doesn't change that much. The game menu uses a system similar to the latter.--[[User:Mister Wu|Mister Wu]] ([[User talk:Mister Wu|talk]]) 03:31, February 28, 2022 (EST) | ||
===Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|9-0}} | |||
I feel like this wiki has been taking this a bit far. For example, whenever the ''Super Mario Bros.'' ground theme is used in a game, we always consider it a direct reference to the game ''Super Mario Bros.'', when really since then it's become more Mario's main theme. Same with the underground theme for caves and airship theme for airships (usage for those are always considered references to ''Super Mario Bros.'' and ''Super Mario Bros. 3'' respectively). This proposal hopes to cut down on that, and will not affect themes which hardly appear in other games, such as the ''Super Mario Bros. 2'' ground theme appearing in ''Paper Mario: Color Splash''. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Swallow}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 9, 2022, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per proposal; basically any theme that has become a staple throughout the franchise. | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Sure. We did the same with enemies a while back, might as well do it for this too. | |||
#{{User|Spectrogram}} per proposal. | |||
#{{User|WildWario}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Power Flotzo}} If Goombas appear in a game, we don't list it as a reference to ''Super Mario Bros.'' Per all. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
===Decide how to cover the ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' animal friends=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|0-9-0|Create a collective article}} | |||
Alright, so at the moment the ''Sonic the Hedgehog'' animal friends are only covered as external links, and, as they mainly appear as audience members, up until ''Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020'' that worked well enough. But in that game, you can talk to several of the animal characters in the Story Mode, and given that as well as that they've also made consistent appearances across the series and even got a few collectibles to themselves, I think it might be time for them to get a little bit of coverage here too. The animals in question are: | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Cucky|Cuckies]] (Chickens): Olympic audience, 2012 3DS badge, 2020 story mode character, SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Flicky|Flickies]] (Bluebirds): Olympic audience, 2012 3DS badge, 2020 story mode character, SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Pecky|Peckies]] (Penguins): Olympic audience, 2012 3DS badge, 2020 story mode character, SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Picky|Pickies]] (Pigs): Olympic audience, 2012 3DS badge, 2020 story mode character, SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Pocky|Pockies]] (Rabbits): 2020 story mode character, SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Ricky|Rickies]] (Squirrels): SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
*[[SonicRetro:Rocky|Rockies]] (Walruses): SSB Wii U trophy and stage cameo | |||
I think there are three ways to go about it: | |||
*'''Individual articles''': Does what it says on the tin, make separate articles for each of the species of animal. | |||
*'''Collective article''': Create a page that covers all of the animals, in the vein of pages like [[Pokémon]] and [[Assist Trophy]]. Given how minor some of the appearances are, I think this is the best option. The page would probably have a collective history section for all of them, as well as a section just elaborating on what each of them are. | |||
*'''Stick to external links''': Just leave it at Sonic Retro links for all of the animals. | |||
At this moment in time, I wouldn't entirely be sure what to call a collective page, as in crossover appearances they've never had a consistent name (To my knowledge, Fauna of Windy Hill Zone, Animals of Windy Hill Zone, Audience, Sonic's animal pals and simply animals have been used across various games), and I don't know if there's anything more concrete in Sonic games, so please let me know if you can think of a suitable name for the page. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|BBQ Turtle}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': March 20, 2022, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Individual articles==== | |||
====Collective article==== | |||
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Splitting every single miniscule thing from a collective article due to identity was [[Talk:Costume Mario#Create articles for all Costume Mario characters|something we agreed to not do]] before. I'm voting for this as it's the most consistent way to do it. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all, if necessary we can re-assess later. (why did you have to remind me of ''that'' proposal) | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|LinkTheLefty}} Animal/Animals is apparently capitalized on occasion like in ''Sonic Runners'', so you could just go along those lines <s>and now it's "Clucky" because we can't have nice things</s>. | |||
#{{User|Glowsquid}} <s>I would have voted for the first option solely so the wiki can have a page named "Cucky"</s> makes sense | |||
#{{User|DannyTheDingo}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Niiue}} <s>glowsquid no this wiki has enough vandalism magnets as is</s> Per all. | |||
====Stick to external links==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
Wasn't it "Cookie" according to the Twitter-card things? Granted they did mix up the animals' names... [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 15:02, March 13, 2022 (EDT) | |||
@BBQTurtle "Small animals" was used for the ''Adventure'' games, but those were the "downsized realistic animals" rather than the toony named ones. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 02:12, March 14, 2022 (EDT) | |||
===Merge some complete BJAODN "articles" with collections=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|1-4-0-0|Option 2}} | |||
I brought this up on a talk page before, but I feel like I should do a proposal before messing around with anything. | |||
So, I was looking over the BJAODN these past 2 weeks for something, and I feel like quite a few of the complete "articles" are normal-entry-level size, and don't really need a separate page. Most notably, the [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Make a website|Make A Website]] "article". It's literally shorter than about 2/5ths of the collection entries we have, and that's including the one comment on the bottom. And there's a few more complete "articles" like this as well; [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Crotch-Face Guy|Crotch-Face Guy]], [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Mario (species)|Mario (species)]], and [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Beezos|Beezos]] from what I can see. I believe these four than easily fit on collection pages. | |||
Additionally, I feel like quite a few collection entries could stand as their own separate articles as well; [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Other#Happiness|while]] [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Other#Speed (episode)|there's]] [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Locations#All Worlds|plenty]] [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Characters#Wizpig|of]] [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/DK_Wiki#Donkey Kong 64|candidates]], the only one I ''really'' want to bring up in this proposal is the entry about the ''[[Luigi's Mansion]]'' game, because it's [[MarioWiki:BJAODN/Luigi's Mansion#Luigi's Mansion|almost as big as the Princess Peach's Voice "article"]] despite being merged with a collection. I think this one could be split into it's own complete article as well, but I will leave an option to just merge the 4 small "articles" with collections if people disagree. | |||
So to recap, I have 4 options on what to do: | |||
#'''Just merge the 4 entries with collections.''' If it's too confusing to have Luigi's Mansion collection & a Luigi's Mansion BJAODN article, we can just merge the 4 "articles" I mentioned before. | |||
#'''Merge the 4 entries with collections AND split the Luigi's Mansion game entry into its own complete "article".''' My perferred choice, to merge the 4 "articles" I mentioned with collections & make the Luigi's Mansion game entry into its own complete "article" (maybe with an identifier to avoid confusion). | |||
#'''Just split the Luigi's Mansion game entry into its own complete "article".''' For whatever reason, if we decide the 4 ridiculously small "articles" are big enough to be separate, but also want to split the Luigi's Mansion (game) entry. | |||
#'''Do nothing.''' I could be taking BJAODN organizing too seriously, or someone may disagree with the points I made on both sides. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Somethingone}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 1, 2022, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Option 1==== | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Second choice. If the Luigi's Mansion (game) entry is to contentious for a separate "article", the 4 short articles I mentioned should at least to be merged. | |||
====Option 2==== | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Perferred choice. | |||
#{{User|WildWario}} Luigi's Mansion definitely feels big enough, so per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} As someone who also takes BJAODN organization seriously, per all. | |||
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per all. | |||
====Option 3==== | |||
====Option 4==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
===Establish proper size of the Media section for game articles with a dedicated media list=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|0-0-6-0-0|4-5 audio files}} | |||
Most Media sections of game articles link to a separate list of media (mostly music). It has been the standard for Media sections to have a small sample of files to give an approximate preview of the full list, but the wiki is inconsistent in how many are chosen. At the time of writing, the Media section for ''[[Super Mario 64#Media|Super Mario 64]]'' has five audio files (plus a video), yet ''[[Mario Kart Wii#Media|Mario Kart Wii]]'' and ''[[Mario Kart 7#Media|Mario Kart 7]]'' show only one file each. ''[[Mario Party 8#Media|Mario Party 8]]'' has seven! | |||
This proposal should settle on how many audio files should be chosen for Media sections. This would be more of a strong recommendation than a hard rule, but consistency is the goal here. | |||
Video files are uncommon, but they should still be kept to one per Media section where applicable (see ''[[Super Mario Sunshine#Media|Super Mario Sunshine]]''). | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|DannyTheDingo}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 5, 2022, 23:59 GMT | |||
====1 audio file==== | |||
====2-3 audio files==== | |||
====4-5 audio files==== | |||
#{{User|DannyTheDingo}} My preferred option. Leaves room for more diverse choices. | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} Per proposal. This gives us plenty of diversity options while not over-crowding pages with media. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal. | |||
#{{User|Ray Trace}} 4-5 audio files is a good sweet spot for this. | |||
#{{User|WildWario}} Per all. | |||
====6+ audio files==== | |||
====No set amount==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
I have also come across a few Media sections that merely display the beginning few files from the media list. (Until I recently changed it, the Media section for ''[[Mario Super Sluggers#Media|Mario Super Sluggers]]'' showed the first four in the list. This was a problem because it was largely unrepresentative; the first two were an unused theme and a repetitive 20-second loop heard once in the entire game.) I almost made a proposal about prohibiting this kind of thing, but it seems too uncommon to be worth doing that. {{User:DannyTheDingo/sig}} 05:20, March 29, 2022 (EDT) | |||
:There technically [[MarioWiki:Empty sections|is a rule]] against that sort of thing (the policy doesn't mention media but it can be reasonably assumed to extend to that), so we should probably just add a mention of media sections there. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:31, March 29, 2022 (EDT) | |||
::I feel that it would definitely make sense to add a mention of media sections onto that policy page. --{{User:TheFlameChomp/sig}} 10:46, March 29, 2022 (EDT) | |||
===Allow/prohibit fan work by former Nintendo staff=== | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|6-4-0|allow all such works}} | |||
After their contractual obligations for Nintendo have ended, certain affiliates such as [[Steve Mayles]] and [[Masanori Sato]] have continued to celebrate the franchises they helped shape through various pieces of artwork. These works, consequently, are not direct promotional material nor are they endorsed or acknowledged by Nintendo, pertaining potentially to the realm of fan art more than what this wiki outlines as official material. Nevertheless, the notability that tailgates these people was reason enough for me to have already uploaded a number of their post-contractual works on the wiki. | |||
The proposal's aim is to sort out whether this practice should be further allowed--and on what conditions. | |||
In hashing over the proposal's options, I will divide these "fan" works by two paradigms, so to speak: those that portray at least one specific character from the ''Mario'' franchise (which can be modified but otherwise still recognizable), and those that are parodies or feature vaguely-represented elements pertaining to the franchise, but do not otherwise portray any officially recognised character. Examples from the former include [https://twitter.com/PlaytonicGames/status/1308781988053164032?s=20 an illustration of Dixie Kong by Steve Mayles] <small>(twitter.com)</small>, [https://www.instagram.com/p/CVPpho6B3Ma/ a sketch of Yoshi by Masanori Sato] <small>(instagram.com)</small>, and a [https://www.instagram.com/p/CZ4W9Eyv0yj/ Bob-omb King-like creature accompanied by an actual Bob-omb] <small>(instagram.com)</small>, also by Sato; examples of the latter include [https://www.instagram.com/p/CVp-W_lDdQh/ an illustration of two Mario&Luigi-like characters] <small>(instagram.com)</small>, [https://www.instagram.com/p/CXfOu6soxq1/ another of a turtle-esque fairy] <small>(instagram.com)</small> resembling [[Boom Boom]] or [[Pom Pom]], and [https://www.instagram.com/p/CbC9gUiroSQ/ yet another of a distinctly Wario-looking fellow] <small>(instagram.com)</small>. | |||
In this respect, I propose three directions: | |||
#Allow any and all such works; | |||
#Allow only works that portray at least one recognised ''Mario'' element, but not those that are derivative of the ''Mario'' franchise; could likely help the wiki avoid legal stuff; | |||
#Prohibit all such works and delete existing uploads. If Nintendo didn't recognise them, they don't belong here. | |||
I should note that the proposal excludes work that has had a function in the promotion or development of a certain media product or the franchise in general, such as Miyamoto's [[:File:Edge cover - Mario and Luigi (Miyamoto drawing).jpg|drawn cover for the ''Edge'' magazine]], or the ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'' [[:File:CAPCOM SmashArt.jpg|Mario-Rathalos artwork]]. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': April 6, 2022, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Option 1: Allow all==== | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} My choice. | |||
#{{user|Doc von Schmeltwick}} - Makes sense to me | |||
#{{User|Niiue}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Hewer}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Results May Vary}} Very interesting proposal that raises some good points. I'd say that because the staff are still recognized for when they were involved with the ''Mario'' franchise, their artworks should be allowed, especially because a lot of stems from when they were involved & many of the subscribers and viewers would perceive it this way as well. | |||
====Option 2: Allow only on-brand depictions==== | |||
#{{User|RHG1951}} While I do love Sato's Mickey & Goofy artwork, I don't think it or any image that only belongs in the artists' gallery section should be uploaded here. | |||
#{{User|Somethingone}} This is a cool idea, but let's at least try to keep it relevant to the namesake of this fan wiki, mkay? | |||
#{{User|Ray Trace}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Bazooka Mario}} I think having a bit of a limit on what kind of art can be uploaded is best. Do we know how much art they shared that isn't Mario? Can we expect that number to grow in the future? | |||
====Option 3: Don't allow any, delete existing uploads relating to this category==== | |||
====Comments==== | |||
At any rate, what do the users in here think of Sato's [https://www.instagram.com/p/CRyHoYSBHf0/?utm_medium=copy_link ''Mario & Luigi''-esque portrayal of Mickey and Goofy]? Is it worth [[:File:Instagram Masanori Sato Mickey and Goofy Mario Luigi style.jpg|keeping it]] on the wiki for the stylistic and dynamic similarities alone? {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:44, March 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||
@RHG1951 @Somethingone I pointed out the Mickey and Goofy image as an individual case, because I thought some users may find its connection to Mario way too tenuous, and probably only coincidental given the fact that an artist can practice their style without this necessarily connecting their works. The artwork deprecated by the second option still relates to Mario in more than just style; do keep this in mind. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:01, March 30, 2022 (EDT) | |||