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{{MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/Template|current=yes}}
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<div style="font-size:95%">__TOC__</div>
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A few notes:
A few notes:
*if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''. They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]].
*if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual Mario characters--'''their page will remain intact'''.<ref group=amendment>The author of this proposal confirms this statement to be an oversight and has ruled through [[#A quick and dirty amendment to the January-February 2023 Smash proposal|another proposal in March 2023]] that it be understood as the following: "if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this obviously includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''they will still have a page of their own'''. However, if they're not characters from a franchise that receives full coverage on this wiki, '''their lists of moves in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series will still be trimmed away.'''"</ref> They will still have an entry on the relevant fighter lists, but nothing else beyond their representative artwork and a "main" tag with a link to their respective article. Cameos such as ''Super Mario Maker'' costumes, ''Yoshi's Woolly World'' designs, ''WarioWare'' microgame appearances, non-speaking roles, and mentions do not constitute a significant appearance--and neither do appearances in media where ''Mario'' characters are [[MarioWiki:Coverage#Guest appearances|guests]], such as ''Captain N'', nor appearances in non-Mario media that is syndicated/distributed with Mario media, such as ''The Legend of Zelda'' cartoon and the [[King_Dedede#Mario_Kirby_Meisaku_Video|Mario/Kirby OVA]].
*in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section.
*in cases where information on a fighter is split between lists, their current article is turned into a disambig page for their list entries (e.g., for Ness, it'll be "For information on Ness in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series, see: {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros.'' fighters § Ness}}; {{fake link|List of ''Super Smash Bros. Melee'' fighters § Ness}} etc.") For fighters who have only appeared in one ''Smash'' game, their current article is turned into a simple redirect to their respective section.
*current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages.
*current profile sections won't be moved to these fighter lists to keep their size reasonable. Trophies, stickers, and spirits of each fighter are already covered on their parent pages.
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----
----
;Footnote
<references group=amendment/>


'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
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:Pretty much [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 10:17, March 6, 2023 (EST)
:Pretty much [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 10:17, March 6, 2023 (EST)
::Okay, just clearing that up. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
::Okay, just clearing that up. {{User:Tails777/sig}}
===Change how we display staff ghost information in race course infoboxes===
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|10-0}}
Currently, all of the relevant information is plain text, with one line showing the time, player, and game; and another, smaller line beneath it showing their character and vehicle. This worked for some time, but now we're in the age of ''8 Deluxe''. We have wheels and gliders and the CC to fit down there. The smaller "line" is spilling into two lines. [[Tokyo Blur]]'s 150cc has so much to convey, it looks like this:
<small>1:36.317 by Nin★Yuya (''8 Deluxe'')<br><small>([[Inkling|Blue Inkling Boy]] with the [[Splat Buggy]], [[Blue Standard]],<br> and [[Super Glider]]) (150cc)</small></small>
At this point, I feel like it no longer makes sense to display staff ghosts this way. I propose we do it like this:
{| style="width:240px"
! style="background:#AADDFF; width:65px;" |8DX <small>150cc</small>
| style="text-align:left; background:#AADDFF;" |Nin★Yuya
|-
! style="text-align:center; background:aliceblue;" |1:36.317
| style="text-align:left; background:aliceblue;" |[[File:MK8DX Male Inkling Icon.png|32px|link=Inkling]][[File:SplatBuggyMK8D InklingBoyBlue.png|32px|link=Splat Buggy]][[File:Blue Standard.png|32px|link=Blue Standard]][[File:MK8DThumbInklingBoySG.png|32px|link=Super Glider]]
|}
This 2x2 grid shows the game (and CC), the name of the ghost, and the ghost's time. In the bottom right, we show the ghost's character and vehicle combination as a line of icons, similar to how ''8 Deluxe'' shows them. These would go under an expandable header near the music samples and course maps.
'''''[[User:Ahemtoday/Staff Ghost Cards|Here]]''''' is a demonstration page where you can see these in action for [[Yoshi Circuit]], as well as see them for other games in the series.
While I'm very open to recommendations for how to improve and better implement these, I think this 2x2 grid layout is the best way to cleanly show many staff ghosts' information in a compact space.
'''Proposer:''' {{User|Ahemtoday}}<br>
'''Deadline:''' March 24, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
# {{User|Ahemtoday}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Shadic 34}} I honestly can't think of any other way to present ghost information other than yours, per proposal.
#{{User|Arend}} Per all.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per proposal. I honestly think it would look much better this way. Plus, we have these sprites, it honestly just looks better to use them like this.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per proposal.
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per all. For me it is visually appealing; better appearance than before.
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS! PER ALL! FINALLY, a proposal for this!
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
#{{User|Camwood777}} - This definitely looks a lot better and conveys info a lot better, though I would like to state that we should probably make sure to include alt text on the actual images for the sake of stuff like screen readers; otherwise, this could become a bit cumbersome for those. (Tried testing it myself, but uh, it turns out Windows Narrator is a little jank on my PC???)
====Oppose====
====Comments====
@Ahemtoday: I'm all for this proposal, but wouldn't it make more sense for it to go under the "changes" section? This isn't exactly a new feature to me. It's more of a change. [[User:Mari0fan100|Mari0fan100]] ([[User talk:Mari0fan100|talk]]) 21:42, March 17, 2023 (EDT)
:I also agree, this should be probably moved to the "changes" section. {{User: Shadic 34/sig}} 21:47, March 17, 2023 (EDT)
===A quick and dirty amendment to the January-February 2023 ''Smash'' proposal===
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|5-0}}
I've just realised I done brain farted in [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Merge_certain_non-Mario_fighters_from_the_Super_Smash_Bros._series_into_game-specific_lists_and_trim_away_detailed_special_move_information_for_all_non-Mario_fighters|this proposal]], completely changing what I wanted to get at, and yet the error somehow went under the radar. The error in question is in this statement:
<blockquote>if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''their page will remain intact'''.</blockquote>
The bolded part was really only supposed to apply to characters who originated from the ''Mario'' franchise. Otherwise, it's in direct contradiction with the proposal's goal to indiscriminately trim and/or re-incorporate moveset lists for all non-''Mario'' characters, regardless if they're still supposed to have a full page on this wiki or not. To reiterate, this is because they're hardly ''Mario''-related concepts and can be neatly summarised in a character's entry for a given ''Smash'' appearance if they aren't already.
So with this proposal, I aim to clarify the statement as the following:
<blockquote>
if a character has had a significant appearance within the ''Mario'' franchise proper, such as having a playable role in ''Mario Kart''--and this obviously includes actual ''Mario'' characters--'''they will still have a page of their own'''. However, if they're not characters from a franchise that receives full coverage on this wiki, '''their lists of moves in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series will still be trimmed away.'''
</blockquote>
If this proposal passes, a link to this proposal will be added as a footnote in the quoted proposal's main body, though without directly altering the original statement.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Koopa con Carne}}<br>
'''Deadline''': March 26, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I apologise and I hope this won't reflect too harshly on my dilligence and reasoning.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} It's good to keep our focus on the series this wiki is meant to cover. Someone should really revise how we handle crossovers.
#{{User|Camwood777}} - Makes sense. If they already have a substantial presence in Mario stuff via crossovers, it seems only fair.
#{{User|Hewer}} For consistency's sake, per all.
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Per all.
====Oppose====
====Comments====
Will we also be axing stuff like the Classic Mode routes? Palutena's Guidance texts? I'm not entirely sure where to draw the line, but I think there are other things besides the move lists on these articles that are fully the Smash wiki's territory. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 20:32, March 19, 2023 (EDT)
:As far as these fighters pages are concerned, the previous proposal answers your question: Classic Mode routes are moved over to these pages as these may involve Mario characters and music, while Palutena's texts, as with other information of the "profiles and statistics" type, aren't. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 21:17, March 19, 2023 (EDT)
===Add level maps for levels with no maps===
{{ProposalOutcome|blue|cancelled by the administrators}}<small>Per rule 15, a proposal isn't necessary to add missing information.</small>
It's simple. Many levels in this wiki from many games have no maps.
'''Proposer''': {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}}<br>
'''Deadline''': 13:41, April 18, 2023 (CST)
====Support====
#{{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} This will let people view the maps. And no, last I checked, there were no spoiler rules.
====Oppose====
====Comments====
And why exactly does it need a proposal? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:56, April 11, 2023 (EDT)
:Why do you ask? {{User|SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA)}} 14:04, April 11, 2023 (CST)
::This definitely does not need a proposal. Many level articles have these maps already, anything  that doesn't should absoloutely have them too. It depends if there's anyone around able to do it. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:22, April 11, 2023 (EDT)
===Trim and merge ''Smash'' spirits and stickers===
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do nothing 4-0-0-1-8}}
Just like what we did with [https://www.mariowiki.com/MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Trim_the_Smash_Bros_trophies_page trophies], I propose we do the same and remove all non-''Mario'' series spirits and merge the rest with [[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)]]. If the spirit just so happens to not be from the ''Mario'' series but includes a ''Mario'' reference in the background or whatever, it also gets to stay. Same applies to [[Sticker_(Super_Smash_Bros._Brawl)]], the article gets trimmed to only include ''Mario''-themed stickers.
If the proposal passes, the following changes will be implemented:
#[[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (1-500)|1-500]], [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (501-1000)|501-1000]], and [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (1001-1500)|1001-1500]] get trimmed and merged with [[Spirit (Super Smash Bros. Ultimate)]] to only include ''Mario''-related appearances.
#[[Sticker (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)]] gets trimmed the same way as spirits.
'''Second option:''' keep stickers and spirits if they also have any relevance to ''Mario'' in their statistics, obtaining, battles, etc. This option was added per {{user|Koopa con Carne}}'s vote, and even though I believe this approach is inconsistent to what we did with (for example) Subspace Emissary stages, I see no reason not to have it as an extra option. I would also like to ask to comment before voting next time, as people very often forget to re-read and to re-vote on a proposal, even if their vote and reasoning are no longer relevant.
Feel free to comment if you've got any issues with the proposal, I can always edit it.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Mario Wiki.
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} SmashWiki exists for this information. Nothing will be lost and there isn't that much context to it the ''Mario'' characters.
#{{User|Camwood777}} - The Sticker article is definitely a holdover from a pre-SmashWiki era, so like, that's needed to be trimmed awhile ago. The spirits article should also probably be trimmed down for the same reason. And, y'know, the fact that the 501-1000 spirit list literally has ''zero'' Mario spirits on it is borderline comical.
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} Per SeanWheeler's comment.
<s>#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Let's keep the focus on Mario. The 501-1000 Spirit list has nothing Mario-related in it.</s>
====Only trim/merge spirits====
====Only trim stickers====
====Second option (Edit)====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Changing my vote to allow keeping stickers that affect specific Mario characters and the Spirit battles that involved Mario opponents and stages, but it still needs to be trimmed, especially the 501-1000 spirit list.
====No sticker left behind====
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} I assume this is the "Do nothing" option; the wording isn't too clear. Anyway, many stickers in ''Brawl'', even non-''Mario'' ones, can be used on ''Mario'' fighters. Same with practically all spirits in ''Ultimate'', which have the added aspect of spirit battles that may involve ''Mario'' opponents, stages, items, and music; see, for instance, the [[List of spirits in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate (501-1000)|593rd spirit]], Pico, who is represented by Bowser. I wouldn't be opposed to handpicking and trimming the few completely irrelevant stickers, but I think this proposal has much the same shortcomings as the concurrent stage proposal in that it tries to paint the whole situation in broad strokes instead of taking a more nuanced view on the matter.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per KCC.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} - Unlike trophies which are just logs of text copy-pasted straight from the game irrelevant to the whole "Mario punching Link" aspect, these things affect gameplay (see KCC's reasoning above and below). Admitelly I'm not sure I like the spirits page being xbox-hueg but I don't think this is the way to go.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per Koopa con Carne.
#{{User|Tails777}} Per Koopa con Carne
#{{User|Sdman213}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
====Comments====
The proposal was updated on 09:11, April 13, 2023 (EDT) -{{User|Spectrogram}}
I think all the ''Ultimate'' spirits have some relevance to Mario, seeing as how Mario characters can equip and benefit from any of them, thus making them coverage-worthy. To put it another way, readers may visit the spirit pages on this wiki with the intent of finding out, for example, which spirit works best with a given Mario, DK, Yoshi, or Wario series fighter. This is consistent with the currently-enforced principle that non-''Mario'' fighters still deserve some coverage here by virtue of the fact that ''Mario'' fighters can interact with them. On the other hand, some stickers ''are'' restricted against ''Mario'' fighters, and it's reasonable to expect readers of Mario Wiki not to find these immediately relevant to their interests. Oddballs need to be accounted for too: despite the previous statement, the Crazee Dayzee and ''Mario Power Tennis'' Bowser stickers, which are exclusively usable by Pokemon Trainer and Ganondorf respectively, should still be covered for the simple fact that they depict ''Mario'' subjects. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 09:48, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
:I do not believe this is a good reason to keep them anyway. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:59, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
::Anyone can equip spirits and stickers. That doesn't mean they are all noteworthy on a Mario Wiki. Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the [[Pokémon]] article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page. The spirit list is divided into three pages, and the middle page doesn't have a single Mario-related spirit. A few possessed Mario fighters, and a few take place on Mario stages, but there's still a lot of non-Mario clutter. If readers want full information on the stickers and spirits from Super Smash Bros, they should check Smash Wiki instead. Our Smash coverage has been practically competing with Smash Wiki and it's time to stop that. For one, Smash Wiki is a member of NIWA that specializes in Super Smash Bros. while we cover Mario. Our full coverage of Donkey Kong had led to the closure of the Donkey Kong Wiki. So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 01:10, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::I agree. Although, to be honest: I'm not sure even the Mario stickers and spirits are major enough to cover here. Fighters, I get. Stages, I get. But trophies and stickers and spirits are such a minor thing. It's like covering what everyone's taunts are. The Smash Wiki has an obligation to do that, yeah, but ''we'' don't. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:40, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::::But that's directly Mario-related information, there's really no room to argue otherwise. By all means, we should cover the Mario characters' taunts because they're Mario characters. Should we also remove information on collectibles from Mario games because it's too minor? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 03:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::::We should have kept ''Mario'' taunts [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 03:52, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::::::[[Taunt|We do still have coverage of taunts, by the way.]] --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 20:39, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
@SeanWheeler: "''Anyone can equip trophies and stickers''" Straight up false information and disingenuous argument. Trophies are aesthetic collectibles with virtually no gameplay purpose, and stickers can have restrictions on which characters they can be applied to. "''Mario himself could throw a Poké Ball to summon a random Pokémon, but the [[Pokémon]] article is proposed for deletion with nobody defending the page.''" That proposal states that Poke Ball Pokemon will remain on the wiki precisely because they can interact with Mario, they'll just be relocated to the Smash items page; it's the general Pokemon page that will be deleted since it has no relevance to Mario whatsoever--it's as if the wiki had an article on the Aegis blade because two Smash fighters are personifications of this object. "''So just like the other NIWA wikis that only cover their universe's part of Smash, we should focus on the Mario aspects of Smash.''" The Mario Wiki is not beholden to some mysterious NIWA-wide standard on how to cover Smash information. It is free to exercise its own discretion in that regard, and the situation definitely has more facets to consider than "these concepts weren't made for a Mario game". {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:17, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
I don't think "can interact with Mario characters" is a reasonable criterion for coverage. Surely, then, we should be listing all the characters' moves - up tilts, down smashes, back airs, and all - on the basis that Mario characters can be hit by them? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:07, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:They already are, they're just condensed into the fighters' ''Super Smash Bros.'' appearance sections--see for instance [[List_of_fighters_debuting_in_Super_Smash_Bros._Melee#Super_Smash_Bros._Melee_11|Mr. Game & Watch]]. No essential information is lost from these fighter merges, it just isn't being described in as much detail as it used to be (e.g. aesthetic aspects). {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 14:13, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::Just fixed the typo where I accidentally said "trophies." Still, there's hardly anything noteworthy about an interaction with Mario characters in gameplay when you can use any other character with no difference. The amount of damage from attacking Mario with Samus Aran's back-air would be no different from hitting Fox McCloud with the same move. The weights may vary a bit, but we'd be overanalyzing non-Mario moves. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 19:21, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::They interact with Mario characters in a crossover game and that makes them fully eligible for coverage, period. Note that by "coverage" I don't necessarily mean "dedicated page" as the organisation of non-''Mario'' subjects should be decided on a more case by case basis, but it is certainly not at all intuitive or conducive to start splitting hairs on just how minor these gameplay interactions are. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 19:32, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::::You've made the proposals that merged the Smash fighters into lists and you supported the proposal to trim the trophy list. Why are you against trimming the stickers and spirits? The list of spirits was so big that it was split into three, and the middle page completely lacked Mario spirits. Shouldn't the stickers be trimmed away for the same reason the trophies were? So what if Mario characters can equip them? Trophies are items in Brawl and Smash 4 that can be picked up by Mario characters. I think the non-Mario stickers that are useless to Mario characters and the non-Mario spirits that doesn't use anything Mario related in their battles should be trimmed away. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 20:08, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
:::::Stickers and spirits have a gameplay purpose that can affect the stats of Mario characters, however small that effect may be. I don't know where you got that I'm against trimming the stickers, because I clearly said right at the start of the discussion that I'd encourage them being trimmed away as long as they depict a non-''Mario'' subject ''and'' are usable only by non-''Mario'' fighters. As for the trophies, if I remember correctly from ''Brawl'', you pick up generic trophy stand-ins whose character is only revealed by the end of the battle or minigame, certainly [https://youtu.be/ti-yM3sSvcI?t=187 this being the case with ''Smash for 3DS'']--and the wiki already has an article for the general [[trophy (Super Smash Bros. series)|trophy]] item, which Mario, indeed, can interact with. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 20:34, April 18, 2023 (EDT)
::::::You voted "No Sticker Left Behind" as the "do nothing" option. Are you going to change your vote to the Second Option? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:59, April 19, 2023 (EDT)
:::::::Not quite. The proposal states that the second option involves "keeping [...] spirits if they also have any relevance to Mario in their '''statistics'''", but it's unclear to me what "statistics" means: is it just a ''Mario'' fighter's overall power (thus all of the spirits would be kept), or the kind of statistics such as shield durability, magic power, fist power etc.? In the latter case, there are some spirits that boost the power of abilities only certain characters harness, such as Ness and Lucas' PSI attacks, and those have no link to Mario, meaning these spirits would be removed unless they have other ''Mario''-relevant aspects to them.<br>To reiterate, I'd be for keeping all spirits, because they all can affect ''Mario'' fighters in some way. There exist no fighter restrictions with spirits as there do for stickers, and keeping them in lists is by that very nature consistent with [[List of The Subspace Emissary stages]] and "List of fighters debuting in X game", contrary to what the proposer claims. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 07:35, April 20, 2023 (EDT)
=== Create an article for {{fake link|''Punch-Out!!'' (NES)}}===
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do not create 1-6}}
''Punch-Out!!'' and its original version ''Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!'' [[List of references_in_Nintendo_video_games#Punch-Out.21.21.2FMike_Tyson.27s_Punch-Out.21.21_.28NES.29|are currently considered cameos on this wiki.]] What separates cameos from guest appearances is that cameos have no overall effect on the game. It's when the thing lacks any role in the gameplay or story. The ''Zelda'' games may have a Mario enemy appear. Still, they are non-''Mario'' enough to be somewhat distanced from the ''Mario'' games, so the games do not get a page, except for ''Awakening'', which only got it because of Mamu's involvement in giving one of the items to Link. As for the NES version of ''Punch-Out!!'', Mario appears in this game as the ''referee'', which means whenever one of the boxers is down, Mario will come up and start counting down from ten. He tells the fighters to fight once the match begins.
'''So why is this considered a cameo?''' Mario ''blatantly'' appears and plays a role in the '''gameplay''': being Little Mac's '''referee'''. His appearance would easily be a cameo if he had just been in the background watching the fight. But because Mario does have a significant role in being the '''referee''', a rather '''important''' thing in boxing, the wiki underplayed Mario's role in this game. Sure, he isn't playable or is a [[Punch-Out!! (Wii)|boss]], but he isn't ''just'' in the background. I always wondered why the wiki considered this role unimportant when it's more than just a background appearance. I guess it's because he isn't playable. Still, not all guest appearances have to make a ''Mario'' character playable, as recently proven with ''Sonic Lost World''. (And on a minor note, ''Punch-Out!! Wii'' is weirdly in the references section despite being a guest appearance).
This proposal aims to reclassify the NES version of ''Punch-Out!!'' as a '''guest appearance.''' This option would mean that we get a general page detailing the game and detailing Mario's role as the referee. The page will also cover both game versions since they are the same in terms of Mario content. We won't create pages for Little Mac or all the fighters that appear in the game. <s>Sorry, Mike Tyson.</s>
[[User:Wikiboy10/Punch-Out!!_(NES)|I have a sandbox for the opening paragraph of this game.]] I haven't played much of the NES version, so I'm unsure how I would describe the gameplay.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Wikiboy10}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 20, 2023, 23:59 GMT
==== Consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) as a Guest Appearance ====
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} Per Proposal
==== Consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) as a Cameo ====
#{{User|Spectrogram}} This is a stretch, honestly
#{{User|Hewer}} Per Spectrogram, I'm not sure why you're emphasising so much that Mario being the referee is a major role in the gameplay when all he really does is stand at the side sometimes and wave his hands.
#{{User|Camwood777}} NES Tennis is very similarly considered just a "cameo" game, despite Mario's active role as the referee in that game. Heck, in that game, he's not only always on screen (albeit not always proactive), he's also on the Game Boy version's cover art! Since NES Tennis is still just a "cameo" game (at least, as of writing it is), it feels only fair to keep this game on even footing with it considering Mario's similar role across both games. (Besides, Mario characters have made cameos in other Punch-Out!! games, both before and after the NES game, and the sole exception for "ones that got articles" was Wii, since Donkey Kong is a full-on opponent.)
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Mario's wearing a completely different outfit. And in Wreck-It Ralph, Tapper looks exactly like Mario. What if the referee was just a knock-off character?
#{{User|Tails777}} The role of the referee in boxing doesn't really impact the fact that Mario doesn't play any role other than just appearing as the ref. He doesn't truly impact the gameplay like Donkey Kong does in Punch-Out!! on the Wii.
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
====Comments====
I feel the example for Sonic Lost World is flawed since there's an entire theming going around this to make this more of a guest appearance. I still think Mario is a cameo in this game despite having a tangible gameplay-related role here. {{User:Mario/sig}} 01:18, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
''Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!'' is not the original version. The original version is the gold Famicom cartridge that was given to some contestants of ''[[Family Computer Golf: U.S. Course]]''. This one lacked Mike Tyson and had Super Macho Man as the final opponent. There are three versions of the game with three different bosses. That being said, would this proposal also affect ''Tennis''? Mario is a referee in that game as well.--[[User:Platform|Platform]] ([[User talk:Platform|talk]]) 05:54, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
===Merge every ''Super Smash Bros.'' stage into game-specific lists===
{{ProposalOutcome|green|merge 9-3}}
It's official, the premise is that the Super Mario Wiki is not a Super Smash Bros. wiki. I was wondering if we can merge every stage into game-specific lists:
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros.}}
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Melee}}
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Brawl}}
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS / Wii U}}
**{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Nintendo 3DS}}
**{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U}}
*{{fake link|List of stages debuting in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}
The following pages will be affected:
{|
|-
|
*[[Arena Ferox]] (''Fire Emblem'')
*[[Balloon Fight]] (''Balloon Fight'')
*[[Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'')
*[[Battlefield|Big Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'')
*[[Big Blue (stage)|Big Blue]] (''F-Zero'')
*[[Boxing Ring]] (''Punch-Out!!'')
*[[Bridge of Eldin]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Brinstar]] (''Metroid'')
*[[Brinstar Depths]] (''Metroid'')
*[[Castle Siege]] (''Fire Emblem'')
*[[Cloud Sea of Alrest]] (''Xenoblade'')
*[[Coliseum (stage)|Coliseum]] (''Fire Emblem'')
*[[Corneria]] (''Star Fox'')
*[[Distant Planet]] (''Pikmin'')
*[[Dracula's Castle]] (''Castlevania'')
*[[Dream Land (Super Smash Bros.)|Dream Land]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Dream Land GB]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Duck Hunt (stage)|Duck Hunt]] (''Duck Hunt'')
*[[Final Destination]] (''Super Smash Bros.'')
*[[Find Mii]] (''Find Mii'')
*[[Flat Zone]] (Game & Watch)
*[[Flat Zone 2]] (Game & Watch)
*[[Flat Zone X]] (Game & Watch)
*[[Fountain of Dreams]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Fourside]] (''EarthBound'')
*[[Frigate Orpheon]] (''Metroid'')
*[[Garden of Hope]] (''Pikmin'')
*[[Garreg Mach Monastery]] (''Fire Emblem'')
*[[Gaur Plain]] (''Xenoblade'')
*[[Gerudo Valley]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Great Bay]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Great Plateau Tower]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
|
*[[Green Greens]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Green Hill Zone]] (''Sonic the Hedgehog'')
*[[Halberd]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Hanenbow]] (''Electroplankton'')
*[[Hollow Bastion]] (''Kingdom Hearts'')
*[[Icicle Mountain]] (''Ice Climber'')
*[[Kalos Pokémon League]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[King of Fighters Stadium]] (''Fatal Fury'')
*[[Living Room]] (''Nintendogs'')
*[[Lylat Cruise]] (''Star Fox'')
*[[Magicant]] (''EarthBound'')
*[[Mementos]] (''Persona'')
*[[Meta Crystal]] (''Super Smash Bros.'')
*[[Midgar]] (''Final Fantasy'')
*[[Mishima Dojo]] (''Tekken'')
*[[Minecraft World]] (''Minecraft'')
*[[Moray Towers]] (''Splatoon'')
*[[Mute City (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Mute City]] (''F-Zero'')
*[[Mute City SNES]] (''F-Zero'')
*[[New Pork City]] (''EarthBound'')
*[[Norfair]] (''Metroid'')
*[[Northern Cave]] (''Final Fantasy'')
*[[Onett]] (''EarthBound'')
*[[Orbital Gate Assault]] (''Star Fox'')
*[[Pac-Land]] (''Pac-Man'')
*[[Pac-Maze]] (''Pac-Man'')
*[[Palutena's Temple]] (''Kid Icarus'')
*[[PictoChat]] (Nintendo DS)
*[[PictoChat 2]] (Nintendo DS)
*[[Pilotwings]] (''Pilotwings'')
*[[Pirate Ship (stage)|Pirate Ship]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Planet Zebes]] (''Metroid'')
|
*[[Poké Floats]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Pokémon Stadium]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Pokémon Stadium 2]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Port Town Aero Dive]] (''F-Zero'')
*[[Prism Tower]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Pyrosphere (stage)|Pyrosphere]] (''Metroid'')
*[[Reset Bomb Forest]] (''Kid Icarus'')
*[[Saffron City]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Sector Z]] (''Star Fox'')
*[[Shadow Moses Island]] (''Metal Gear Solid'')
*[[Skyloft]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Skyworld]] (''Kid Icarus'')
*[[Battlefield|Small Battlefield]] (''Super Smash Bros.'')
*[[Smashville]] (''Animal Crossing'')
*[[Spear Pillar]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Spiral Mountain]] (''Banjo-Kazooie'')
*[[Spirit Train]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[Spring Stadium]] (''ARMS'')
*[[Summit]] (''Ice Climbers'')
*[[Suzaku Castle]] (''Street Fighter'')
*[[Temple (stage)|Temple]] (''The Legend of Zelda'')
*[[The Great Cave Offensive]] (''Kirby'')
*[[Tomodachi Life (stage)|Tomodachi Life]] (''Tomodachi'')
*[[Tortimer Island]] (''Animal Crossing'')
*[[Town and City]] (''Animal Crossing'')
*[[Umbra Clock Tower]] (''Bayonetta'')
*[[Unova Pokémon League]] (''Pokémon'')
*[[Venom]] (''Star Fox'')
*[[Wii Fit Studio]] (''Wii Fit'')
*[[Wily Castle]] (''Mega Man'')
*[[Windy Hill Zone]] (''Sonic the Hedgehog'')
*[[Yggdrasil's Altar]] (''Dragon Quest'')
|}
The following pages will not be affected:
{|
|-
|
*[[3D Land]] (''Mario'')
*[[75 m (stage)|75 m]] (''Donkey Kong'')
*[[Delfino Plaza (stage)|Delfino Plaza]] (''Mario'')
*[[Figure-8 Circuit (stage)|Figure-8 Circuit]] (''Mario Kart'')
*[[Gamer (stage)|Gamer]] (''Wario'')
*[[Golden Plains]] (''Mario'')
*[[Hyrule Castle]] (''The Legend of Zelda''){{hover|*|Also appears in Mario Kart 8 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.}}
*[[Jungle Hijinxs (stage)|Jungle Hijinxs]] (''Donkey Kong'')
*[[Jungle Japes (stage)|Jungle Japes]] (''Doneky Kong'')
*[[Kongo Falls]] (''Donkey Kong'')
*[[Kongo Jungle (Super Smash Bros.)|Kongo Jungle]] (''Donkey Kong'')
*[[Luigi's Mansion (stage)|Luigi's Mansion]] (''Mario'')
|
*[[Mario Bros. (stage)|Mario Bros.]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mario Circuit (Super Smash Bros. for Wii U)|Mario Circuit]] (''Mario Kart'')
*[[Mario Galaxy (stage)|Mario Galaxy]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Smash Bros.)|Mushroom Kingdom (64)]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mushroom Kingdom (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Mushroom Kingdom (''Melee'')]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mushroom Kingdom II]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mushroom Kingdom U]] (''Mario'')
*[[Mushroomy Kingdom]] (''Mario'')
*[[New Donk City Hall]] (''Mario'')
*[[Paper Mario (stage)|Paper Mario]] (''Mario'')
*[[Peach's Castle (Super Smash Bros.)|Peach's Castle (64)]] (''Mario'')
*[[Princess Peach's Castle (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Princess Peach's Castle (''Melee'')]] (''Mario'')
|
*[[Rainbow Cruise]] (''Mario'')
*[[Rainbow Road (stage)|Rainbow Road]] (''Mario Kart'')
*[[Rumble Falls (stage)|Rumble Falls]] (''Donkey Kong'')
*[[Super Happy Tree (stage)|Super Happy Tree]] (''Yoshi'')
*[[Super Mario Maker (stage)|Super Mario Maker]] (''Mario'')
*[[WarioWare, Inc. (stage)|WarioWare, Inc.]] (''Wario'')
*[[Woolly World]] (''Yoshi'')
*[[Wrecking Crew (stage)|Wrecking Crew]] (''Wrecking Crew'')
*[[Wuhu Island]] (''Wii Sports''){{hover|*|Also appears in Mario Kart 7 and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe.}}
*[[Yoshi's Island (Super Smash Bros. Brawl)|Yoshi's Island (''Brawl'')]] (''Yoshi'')
*[[Yoshi's Island (Super Smash Bros. Melee)|Yoshi's Island (''Melee'')]] (''Yoshi'')
*[[Yoshi's Story (stage)|Yoshi's Story]] (''Yoshi'')
|}
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br>
'''Deadline''': <s>April 19, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> April 26, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal
#{{User|ShootingStar7X}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Per updated proposal. Please make sure to also explain what would be done with all that extra information (if anything).
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Actually, as I'm looking at those stage pages, they are pretty short, and far more suitable for a list page than the characters. The longer ones can be trimmed a bit.
#{{User|Shiny K-Troopa}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} Sure. Consistent with [[List of The Subspace Emissary stages]], [[List of fighters debuting in Super Smash Bros. Melee]] etc.
#{{User|Shadic 34}} I mean... we have made everything else in Smash into a list, how about stages too?
#{{User|Mario}} I'm gonna support but I have a good feeling that these resulting list articles are stage 3 terminal versions of our Smash Bros. coverage.
#{{User|Ray Trace}} tbh im not a huge fan of the lists either. i would just kill them entirely and have the subjects externally link to smashwiki
<s>#{{User|Wikiboy10}} We have merged the fighters, items, and other stuff from this series, we might as well do this. Since the supporter didn't do a good job of explaining why this needs to happen, our stance on ''Super Smash Bros.'' is that it's not in the same vein of crossovers in comparison to ''Mario & Sonic''. Honestly, I feel the opposition's reasoning is just based on how poorly this proposal is written, rather than because we shouldn't do it.</s>
====Oppose====
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. I get how we are trimming down our Smash Bros. coverage, however you are going to need to be more specific on how this is going to work.
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} Per all.
#{{User|Shoey}} Per all.
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} You have made zero effort to elaborate on various aspects of this merge, such as whether this merge involves minutiae like pertinent images, song tables, profiles etc., but most outstandingly, the proposal, intentionally or otherwise, makes a tacit statement that the Mario series stages themselves would also be merged together with the others, which is basically where my opposition is most strong. I assume this is a follow-up to the fighter proposal, which would imply that it aims to round up non-Mario Smash subjects of a particular nature into one page, in which case even a simple statement along those lines would have gone a long way towards clarification. You're basically relying on your voters' guesswork to sort this thing out.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per Koopa con Carne, and lumping 3DS and Wii U into the same page is also a strange decision since they introduced almost completely different stages to each other.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Swallow}} Per Koopa con Carne, this needs some serious elaboration rather than just "merge everything".</s><br>
<s>#{{User|Spectrogram}} Proposal fails to even mention ''Mario''-related stages and what would be done with extra information.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per Koopa con Carne, this proposal is unclear on too many aspects currently to consider supporting.</s><br>
<s>#{{User|SeanWheeler}} While I like that we're cutting down on Smash Bros. content, those lists of fighters give me flashbacks of the Banjo and Conker series pages, so I don't want the stages to be given that treatment. I'm honestly quite confused about which non-Mario characters gets their own pages and which ones are sections of the fighter lists. And it's unclear with this proposal about what happens with the Mario stages.</s>
====Comments====
'''@Teh Other''', note that you still have three days to edit the proposal. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:15, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
@Wikiboy10 It's not only poorly written, even this needs specifics on what exactly will happen. The proposal reasoning implies it will impact absolutely everything which is not a very good way of going about this sort of thing. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 15:07, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
Funnily enough, I just removed my vote because now I realized the biggest flaw with this proposal: Would this include the ''Mario'', ''Donkey Kong'', ''Wario'', ''Yoshi'', and ''Wrecking Crew'' stages too? Please clarify that. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 15:10, April 13, 2023 (EDT)
Why should the stages be merged and not playable characters? I think the stages are like the second most visible aspect of Super Smash Bros. {{User:Mario/sig}} 01:16, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
:The fighters have been/are being merged already. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
@Teh Other Could you clarify what exactly you intend to happen with the 3DS and Wii U stages? The proposal is still unclear about that. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:20, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
:Yeah, I think that's important too. I'm about to revote for this once it's more clear. We definitely need to merge the stages now, but we need better information. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 11:26, April 14, 2023 (EDT)
===Classify ''Just Dance'' series as a guest appearance===
{{ProposalOutcome|green|guest appearance 5-3}}
In ''Just Dance 3'', there is a song named "Just Mario" with a whole [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39L-M5nhx6Y theming] around it. Spinies on the background, horsetail plants, and Mario Mario himself, dancing at the center of the screen. Exclusively for ''Just Dance 2018'' Switch version, there is... Rabbid Peach, [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7YFao1Ek0E dancing] next to Peach's Castle. With a whole theme going around these two songs, I believe it's fair to call the series a guest appearance.
'''Proposer''': {{User|Spectrogram}}<br>
'''Deadline''': April 27, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Mario is just that good at dancing
#{{User|RHG1951}} Per proposal
#{{User|Shadic 34}} 💃
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per proposal.
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal.
<s>#{{User|Hewer}} Per proposal.</s>
====Oppose====
#{{User|Wikiboy10}} If we aren't going to consider ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES) a guest appearance, then we should also treat this as a cameo. The ''Mario'' elements play no role in the gameplay. If you're going to use the argument that the character blatantly appears in it, so did Mario in ''Punch-Out!!'' (NES). Even if I would classify these games, I think we should create two different articles on it.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Why create a series page for two games Mario guest appeared in? We should only do series pages for Mario spinoffs. We'd might as well do a Sonic series page or a Legend of Zelda series page if Just Dance gets a series page here. The Just Dance guest appearances should have a page for each game instead.
#{{User|Hewer}} Per SeanWheeler, but I'd support an option to make individual pages for the games with Mario content.
====Comments====
i mean, if its got mario stuff in it then yeah its a guest appearance. my question is does this really need a proposal? {{User:RealStuffMister/sig}} 22:02, April 20, 2023 (EDT)
:[[SMW:CV]]<br>''"Please note that a proposal should be made before a game is classified as a "guest appearance", as this is a somewhat tricky distinction and there could easily be disagreement in the community about the extent to which coverage should be granted to any given non-Mario game."'' [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 01:21, April 21, 2023 (EDT)
So would this classify the whole series as a guest appearance or just those two games with Mario content? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:19, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
:The whole series because: a) stand-alone articles on two of these games just wouldn't be a good idea, and b) it's just better to keep all ''Mario'' content on one page for the whole ''Just Dance'' series. If Nintendo ever partners with them again and another ''Mario'' song gets released, would we need to make a third page? These games are way too similar. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 09:16, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
::So I'm assuming the page name would be "''Just Dance'' (series)"? {{User:Hewer/sig}} 09:19, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
:::Why not just ''Just Dance''? [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 12:01, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
::::[[MarioWiki:Naming]]: "Game series articles always get a series identifier regardless of whether or not the title is shared, such as [[Mario Kart (series)|''Mario Kart'' (series)]]." {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:00, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
:::::Not sure I agree with this rule, but in this case, yes [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 13:06, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
@WikiBoy10, Punch Out literally only has Mario as a referee (and that's it). These two songs clearly have tons of effort put into, combining elements from two separate ''Mario'' games. Comparing this to Punch Out is just fractally wrong. [[User:Spectrogram|Spectrogram]] ([[User talk:Spectrogram|talk]]) 14:57, April 23, 2023 (EDT)
There's already a precedent for lumping multiple "Guest Appearance" games with the [[Skylanders: SuperChargers]] page, which covers the title game, the "Racing" version for last-gen consoles and the character's appearance in Imaginators. Making a separate page for each Just Dance game that has a Mario song in it is an insane suggestion to me, they're ''very'' iterative games. --[[User:Glowsquid|Glowsquid]] ([[User talk:Glowsquid|talk]]) 13:57, April 27, 2023 (EDT)
===Remove articles about ''Sonic'' characters===
{{ProposalOutcome|canceled}}
This is a wiki covering the entirety of the ''Mario'' franchise, and as such, full articles about every ''Sonic'' character are unnecessary (at least put a mention to them with the <code>sonicretro:</code> appender between double square brackets). Also, the articles themselves are somehow, poorly written ([[Dr. Eggman]] has one large paragraph for London Olympic Games, and one-liners for every other game he has appeared in).
I propose that the ''Sonic'' character articles should be reduced to a list featuring a brief description of each character, like "List of fighters debuting in [insert ''Smash'' title here]", or mention them with the <code>sonicretro:</code> appender.
'''Proposer''': {{User|PnnyCrygr}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 7, 2023, 15:05 EDT<br>
'''Date withdrawn''': April 30, 2023
====Support====
#{{User|PnnyCrygr}} Per my reasons.
====Oppose====
#{{User|Swallow}} The Mario and Sonic games are fully within our coverage and the Sonic characters should definitely still have articles covering their appearances in those games.
#{{user|Blhte}} per Swallow.
#{{User|Hewer}} Although I've mentioned this idea before, after thinking about it more I've decided against it because I don't see a reason to exclude the ''Mario'' & Sonic games from full coverage. This shouldn't happen unless we decide to make a big change to the [[MarioWiki:Coverage|coverage policy]], which would probably require us to cut down on other crossover content as well, for example the Dragon Quest characters who we cover because of [[Fortune Street]]. Articles being poorly written is a bad reason to delete them, it just means we should rewrite them to not be poorly written. Also, making a list page for them and externally linking them are two very different solutions, so you probably shouldn't be lumping them into the same support option.
====Comments====
I think this proposal should be vetoed; i now understand Hewer's points. {{User|PnnyCrygr}}
:This proposal is new enough that you can remove it yourself as long as you add it to the archive. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:52, April 30, 2023 (EDT)
===Discourage drive-by templating part 2===
{{ProposalOutcome|green|passed 21-0}}
Building off of [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/61#Discourage_drive-by_templating|this proposal]], I propose taking this one step further with some more templates that are often used. Suggestions to merge, split, and rename articles are frequently made using the relevant templates, but many times that's the end of it and no talk page discussion is ever started. The reasons for the suggested change are left behind in a quickly buried edit summary, or not elaborated on at all. That makes it a lot harder for users to know why the change was suggested in the first place, and to discuss whether to do it.
If this passes, then these templates must be accompanied by either an '''active''' discussion or proposal. The discussion/proposal doesn't need to be on the talk page of the article where the template is used, but it does need to exist somewhere, and the template needs to link to the appropriate page. I'm hesitant to define what counts as an active discussion here, because I think it's fair to have some level of discretion there - personally, I would say that if there hasn't been any engagement whatsoever in the past 365 days, the discussion isn't active anymore (please be aware that this is not set in stone). This is to prevent having these templates left behind while attached to discussions that are years old - like proposals, if you suggest a change it's up to you (or the other supporters) to see that through and keep it active until a consensus is reached.
Articles where the proposed changes are enforced by a proposal but not enacted yet are exempt, as a decision has already been made. However, the proposal field of these templates should be used to link to the relevant proposal.
The following templates will be affected:
*[[Template:Merge to]]
*[[Template:Merge from]]
*[[Template:Split]]
*[[Template:Move]]
'''Proposer''': {{User|Waluigi Time}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 4, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} yeah
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per proposal.
#{{User|1468z}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Glowsquid}} Per...
#{{User|Ahemtoday}} "Yeah" indeed. (To be honest, I thought this was something the previous proposal did...)
#{{User|Spectrogram}} Explaining '''why''' you suggest a split/merge/move in the edit summary is horrible for wiki maintenance. The reasoning is often very hard to find (if it even exists), and the templates end up linking to a red link talk page. If you can't be bothered to actually start a discussion on the changes you want to see made, then you shouldn't be allowed to use these templates in the first place.
#{{User|Platform}} Per proposal.
#{{User|Tails777}} Yeah, fully on board with this. I've seen this template many times and it often doesn't have any sort of discussion tying to it.
#{{User|BBQ Turtle}} Per all, I've seen so many instances of this with no discussion to be found anywhere.
#{{user|7feetunder}} This is exactly what I had brought up on the previous proposal.
#{{User|Camwood777}} - Please? (because a "per proposal" doesn't drive home the urgency.)
#{{User|Shadic 34}} Pretty please. Way too many instances of articles having these specific tags but never linking to talk pages, or any other way to give out what the reason for it's inclusion is. I especially hate it when the reason is hidden away in edit summaries, like, edit summaries are only ment for telling what you did on a page, it is NOT for explaining complex topics that better warrant an entire discussion on a talk page.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. The there are a lot of pages that have had those templates up for a very long time yet nothing had been done about it.
#{{User|Mario}} All per
#{{User|Swallow}} I thought this had been decided after the previous proposal already. I actually have already been removing some of these if there was no discussion at all or hadn't been active for a while.
#{{user|Koopa con Carne}} per all
#{{User|Somethingone}} Glad we are adding clarity to our templates now.
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Sure, I guess we could add reasoning to those templates.
#{{user|Shokora}} &ndash; Per all
#{{user|0blivion}} Per all.
#{{user|ThePowerPlayer}} Per all.
====Oppose====
<s>#{{User|Wikiboy10}} This adds too much control to the wiki and kinda dictates it. Mind you, the previous proposal was made to fix users adding templates for no reason. Plus, other wikis don't act like this. And if that argument sounds weak, it was used for merging various Smash articles. The history section exists for you to go look for it. And if you don't agree with the template, you just delete it. I apologize if this support was a bit too informal; I just need to get my points out there. I know for a fact that this proposal will succeed.</s>
====Comments====
@Wikiboy10: The goal of this proposal is the same as the last one, getting rid of vague templates. A request for a rewrite or more images that doesn't actually specify what's wrong with the page is only a little more useless than a suggestion to merge a page with no reasoning - at least the suggested course of action is there, but the reasons why aren't, making it harder than necessary to come to a decision. This is meant to make maintenance easier for our userbase in the long run, and I don't see how requiring users to state their reasons for a suggested change is any more "controlling" than requiring users to specify why they're putting a rewrite template on a page.
The actions of other wikis have no bearing on how we do things, and never should, period. Every community is different and things that work for their organization, maintenance, and policies may not work for another wiki and vice-versa. We can certainly look to other wikis to see what ideas might be worth adapting and what's failed in the past, but it shouldn't be the basis of our decisions. Even using Smash as an example, there's several much more solid arguments to be made for reducing or cutting that content. A proposal that rested solely on "we should cut non-Mario Smash content because Bulbapedia doesn't cover non-Pokemon Smash content", for example, would've flopped horribly. I find it concerning how often "other NIWA wikis don't do this" or "SmashWiki exists" has been brought up in the recent Smash proposals, because apparently this attitude is now spreading to other issues and has been given the appearance of legitimacy, when historically it's been one of the flimsiest arguments used here for good reason.
The issue isn't just the reasoning being left in summaries, but that's a big enough problem already and it's been brought up by supporters why this is a bad idea. Also keep in mind that these templates sometimes stay up for years at a time, and especially on high-traffic pages, those summaries can be buried quick. Providing reasons for suggested changes to articles is simply not what page history is meant for, and drops the responsibility on someone else to start a discussion. However, many times users don't leave an edit summary at all. It didn't take long for me to find an example of this - [[Big Bungee Piranha]]. There's no discussion on the talk page, or on Bungee Bud's talk page either. The discuss button is a red link, in fact. Neither page's edit history has any reasoning for the suggestion. At the bare minimum, there's not even any edit summary that would suggest the template was added, making tracking down the original user who added it to contact them directly needlessly difficult. Maybe there's a discussion about this ''somewhere'', but if there is, I'd have no idea where to look. What's the point of leaving this template up? In some cases, it may be fairly easy for someone else to fill in the blanks, others might be more difficult and rely on obscure material, but it really should be up to the person who suggests the change to follow through and explain why we should do it.
Finally, deleting merge/split/rename templates just because you disagree with the suggestion is a very bad idea that will most likely lead to edit warring. It's the exact opposite of what should be done, discussion until a consensus is reached.
Apologies for the long comment, but I felt the need to address these points. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 15:05, April 28, 2023 (EDT)
"''Plus, other wikis don't act like this. And if that argument sounds weak, it was used for merging various Smash articles.''" If you're referring to a couple misguided support votes in those proposals, maybe. But none of the proposals out of those that actually succeeded were built on that principle, so I suggest you not spread misinformation. As others including WT above have said time and again, there is no inherent, indisputable benefit in modelling this wiki after others. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:40, April 28, 2023 (EDT)
:I will admit, I barely started my own wiki and I am currently trying to get rid of spambots at the moment. I feel you guys are more experienced and nuanced on this stuff than I am. I have a hard time adapting to major changes and I tend to see maintenance templates as a rather important thing on wikis; they save a lot of behinds. When I read this proposal, I felt the idea could be difficult to implement and would require tons of back and forth. I haven't seen a wiki that does tells people to make propsoals for labeling a template, I love to see it; it might help me think about the issue here.I apologize for the misinformed information; I misremembered reading something from Glowsquid [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/56#Glowsquid.27s_comment|in regards to NIWA wikis doing X.]] I reread it again and it was completely different than what I remembered. It was this qoute, "But the "we shouldn't base ourselves on other wikis" goes both ways; just as the fact NIWA wikis don't cover Smash Bros anywhere as rigolously as we do is not an argument in itself for scaling back our coverage, the feeling that the main Smash Bros ressource is lacking in some respects is not an argument to keep it either." You guys win. [[User:Wikiboy10|Wikiboy10]] ([[User talk:Wikiboy10|talk]]) 17:17, April 28, 2023 (EDT)
::Oh, to clarify, a proposal wouldn't be necessary to place one of these templates. There just needs to be somewhere on a talk page where the reasons are provided to discuss the change (which may or may not be a TPP). --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:24, April 28, 2023 (EDT)
===Create interwiki link templates to current and former NIWA wikis and other wikis===
{{ProposalOutcome|red|do nothing 1-4}}
Whether they're current or former, the NIWA wikis have interwiki links. I was wondering if we could make interwiki link templates to the current and former NIWA wikis' pages.
<div class="contentbox mw-collapsible mw-collapsed"data-expandtext="Show sample"data-collapsetext="Hide sample">
{|align=center style=background:#FFF; text-align:center;border-collapse:collapse cellpadding=3 border=1
!Code
!Link
|-
!colspan=2|Sonic Retro
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{sr|Sonic the Hedgehog}}</nowiki></code>
|[[sonicretro:Sonic the Hedgehog|Sonic the Hedgehog]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{sr|Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit)|Sonic the Hedgehog}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[sonicretro:Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit)|Sonic the Hedgehog]]''
|-
!colspan=2|Zelda Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{zw|The Legend of Zelda}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda|The Legend of Zelda]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{zw|The Legend of Zelda (Series)|''The Legend of Zelda'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[zeldawiki:The Legend of Zelda (Series)|''The Legend of Zelda'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Bulbapedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{bp|Pokémon}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[bulbapedia:Pokémon|Pokémon]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{bp|Pikachu (Pokémon)|Pikachu}}</nowiki></code>
|[[bulbapedia:Pikachu (Pokémon)|Pikachu]]
|-
!colspan=2|Metroid Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{met|Samus Aran}}</nowiki></code>
|[[metroidwiki:Samus Aran|Samus Aran]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{met|Metroid (game)|Metroid}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[metroidwiki:Metroid (game)|Metroid]]''
|-
!colspan=2|WiKirby
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{wk|Kirby's Dream Land}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[wikirby:Kirby's Dream Land|Kirby's Dream Land]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{wk|Kirby (series)|''Kirby'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[wikirby:Kirby (series)|''Kirby'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Wars Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{ww|Advance Wars}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[warswiki:Advance Wars|Advance Wars]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ww|Advance Wars (series)|''Advance Wars'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[warswiki:Advance Wars (series)|''Advance Wars'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Lylat Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{lw|Fox McCloud}}</nowiki></code>
|[[lylatwiki:Fox McCloud|Fox McCloud]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{lw|Star Fox (series)|''Star Fox'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[lylatwiki:Star Fox (series)|''Star Fox'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Pikipedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{pk|Captain Olimar}}</nowiki></code>
|[[pikipedia:Captain Olimar|Captain Olimar]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{pk|Pikmin (game)|Pikmin}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[pikipedia:Pikmin (game)|Pikmin]]''
|-
!colspan=2|Pikmin Fanon
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{pkf|Pikmin family}}</nowiki></code>
|[[pikminfanon:Pikmin family|Pikmin family]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{pkf|Hocotate ship|The ship}}</nowiki></code>
|[[pikminfanon:Hocotate ship|The ship]]
|-
!colspan=2|StrategyWiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{sw|Super Mario Odyssey}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[strategywiki:Super Mario Odyssey|Super Mario Odyssey]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{sw|Super Mario World/Yoshi's House|Yoshi's House}}</nowiki></code>
|[[strategywiki:Super Mario World/Yoshi's House|Yoshi's House]]
|-
!colspan=2|SmashWiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{sbw|Super Smash Bros. Ultimate}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[smashwiki:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|Super Smash Bros. Ultimate]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{sbw|Mario (SSBU)|Mario in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate''}}</nowiki></code>
|[[smashwiki:Mario (SSBU)|Mario in ''Super Smash Bros. Ultimate'']]
|-
!colspan=2|WikiBound
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{wb|Ness}}</nowiki></code>
|[[wikibound:Ness|Ness]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{wb|EarthBound (series)|''EarthBound'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[wikibound:EarthBound (series)|''EarthBound'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Nookipedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{np|Animal Crossing}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[nookipedia:Animal Crossing|Animal Crossing]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{np|Animal Crossing (series)|''Animal Crossing'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[nookipedia:Animal Crossing (series)|''Animal Crossing'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Golden Sun Universe
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{gsu|Isaac}}</nowiki></code>
|''[[goldensun:Isaac|Isaac]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{gsu|Golden Sun (game)|Golden Sun}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[goldensun:Golden Sun (game)|Golden Sun]]''
|-
!colspan=2|NintendoWiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{nw|Nintendo Video}}</nowiki></code>
|[[nwiki:Nintendo Video|Nintendo Video]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{nw|Nintendo Switch|Switch}}</nowiki></code>
|[[nwiki:Nintendo Switch|Switch]]
|-
!colspan=2|Fire Emblem Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{few|Fire Emblem Engage}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[fireemblem:Fire Emblem Engage|Fire Emblem Engage]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{few|Fire Emblem (series)|''Fire Emblem'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[fireemblem:Fire Emblem (series)|''Fire Emblem'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Starfy Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{lsw|The Legendary Starfy}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[starfywiki:The Legendary Starfy|The Legendary Starfy]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{lsw|The Legendary Starfy (series)|''The Legendary Starfy'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[starfywiki:The Legendary Starfy (series)|''The Legendary Starfy'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|F-Zero Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{fzw|Captain Falcon}}</nowiki></code>
|[[fzerowiki:Captain Falcon|Captain Falcon]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{fzw|F-Zero (series)|''F-Zero'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[fzerowiki:F-Zero (series)|''F-Zero'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Icaruspedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ip|Pit}}</nowiki></code>
|[[icaruspedia:Pit|Pit]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ip|Kid Icarus (series)|''Kid Icarus'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[icaruspedia:Kid Icarus (series)|''Kid Icarus'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Dragon Quest Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{dqw|Dragon Quest}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[dragonquest:Dragon Quest|Dragon Quest]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{dqw|Dragon Quest (series)|''Dragon Quest'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[dragonquest:Dragon Quest (series)|''Dragon Quest'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Hard Drop Tetris Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{hdt|Tetris & Dr. Mario}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[harddrop:Tetris & Dr. Mario|Tetris & Dr. Mario]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{hdt|Tetris (NES, Nintendo)|Tetris}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[harddrop:Tetris (NES, Nintendo)|Tetris]]''
|-
!colspan=2|Inkipedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ink|Inkling}}</nowiki></code>
|[[inkipedia:Inkling|Inkling]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ink|Splatoon (series)|''Splatoon'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[inkipedia:Splatoon (series)|''Splatoon'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|ARMS Institute
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{ai|Lola Pop}}</nowiki></code>
|[[armswiki:Lola Pop|Lola Pop]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{ai|ARMS (game)|ARMS}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[armswiki:ARMS (game)|ARMS]]''
|-
!colspan=2|Xeno Series Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{xsw|Ghondor}}</nowiki></code>
|[[xenoseries:Ghondor|Ghondor]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{xsw|Xenoblade Chronicles (series)|''Xenoblade Chronicles'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|''[[xenoseries:Xenoblade Chronicles (series)|''Xenoblade Chronicles'' series]]''
|-
!colspan=2|Dragalia Lost
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{dlw|Dragalia Lost}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[dragaliawiki:Dragalia Lost|Dragalia Lost]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{dlw|The Prince|Euden}}</nowiki></code>
|[[dragaliawiki:The Prince|Euden]]
|-
!colspan=2|Ukikipedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{uki|Super Mario 64}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[ukikipedia:Super Mario 64|Super Mario 64]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{uki|The Princess's Secret Slide (Normal)|The Princess's Secret Slide}}</nowiki></code>
|[[ukikipedia:The Princess's Secret Slide (Normal)|The Princess's Secret Slide]]
|-
!colspan=2|Wapopedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{dtl|Drawn to Life}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[drawntolife:Drawn to Life|Drawn to Life]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{dtl|Drawn to Life Series|''Drawn to Life'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[drawntolife:Drawn to Life Series|''Drawn to Life'' series]]
|-
!colspan=2|Kingdom Hearts Wiki
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{khw|Riku}}</nowiki></code>
|[[khwiki:Riku|Riku]]
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{khwiki|Mickey Mouse|King Mickey}}</nowiki></code>
|[[khwiki:Mickey Mouse|King Mickey]]
|-
!colspan=2|Kovopedia
|-
|<code><nowiki>''{{kp|Magical Vacation}}''</nowiki></code>
|''[[kovopedia:Magical Vacation|Magical Vacation]]''
|-
|<code><nowiki>{{kp|Magical Vacation (series)|''Magical Vacation'' series}}</nowiki></code>
|[[kovopedia:Magical Vacation (series)|''Magical Vacation'' series]]
|}
</div>
'''Proposer''': {{User|GuntherBB}}<br>
'''Deadline''': May 12, 2023, 23:59 GMT
====Support====
#{{User|GuntherBB}} Per proposal
====Oppose====
#{{User|SeanWheeler}} Not needed.
#{{User|Swallow}} Per Porplemontage and SeanWheeler.
#{{User|TheFlameChomp}} Per all.
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all.
====Comments====
That's a lot of templates, and additional shorthands to remember, when the prefixes themselves work just fine. If you don't want to type things twice, just do <code><nowiki>[[zeldawiki:Link|]]</nowiki></code>. --{{User:Porplemontage/sig}} 18:58, May 5, 2023 (EDT)
:[[zeldawiki:Link|Link]]. Oh! That does work. Makes your templates pointless doesn't it? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:11, May 5, 2023 (EDT)
::So are you going to protect these templates from creation? {{User:GuntherBB/sig}} 19:27, May 11, 2023 (EDT)
:::I don't think that would be necessary unless those templates are constantly deleted and recreated. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 22:42, May 11, 2023 (EDT)
Retrieved from "https://www.mariowiki.com/Special:MobileDiff/3869349...4176446"