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Talk:Spiny: Difference between revisions
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== Mario Movie name == | == Mario Movie name == | ||
I think it's a bit of a stretch that we are considering that the name of the Spinies the movie as Spiny Shells which came from... a tweet. Given how inaccurate this name is and how one-off that tweet was ([[List_of_controversies#Wigger_Wednesday|there are instances of tweets being misspelled and such]]), I don't think we should use this as the actual name and we should refer to them as Spinies. Sure, the movie has some [[Mini Mushroom|creative]] [[Super Mushroom|liberties]] [[Spiny Shell (blue)|on]] [[Banzai Bill|names]] but this one was likely an oversight from the Twitter account who probably accidently put Spiny Shells. That is unless the sequel decides to do that whithin the movie. --[[User:TheUndescribableGhost|TheUndescribableGhost]] ([[User talk:TheUndescribableGhost|talk]]) 19:43, September 8, 2023 (EDT) | |||
==Mario Kart== | |||
Have they ever appeared in Mario Kart. The only instant that I know of is the badges in Tour, but did they appear anywhere else?[[User:OngoingTalent13|OngoingTalent13]] ([[User talk:OngoingTalent13|talk]]) 00:56, December 29, 2023 (EST) | |||
:Their [[Spiny Shell (blue)|shells]] sure have. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 01:20, December 29, 2023 (EST) | |||
== Refer to ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' Spiny Shells as Spinies == | |||
{{SettledTPP}} | |||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|13-0|Refer to TSMBM Spiny Shells as Spinies}} | |||
{{quote2|Koopas! Goombas! Whatever '''those''' things are!|Bowser|The Super Mario Bros. Movie}} | |||
Here is one of the most baffling things I've seen this wiki do, and that's to refer to the Spinies from ''The Super Mario Bros. Movie'' as '''Spiny Shells'''. For context, ''this name does not even appear in the movie'' (in fact, the joke Bowser ''doesn't even know their name'') but rather, a single off-handed Tweet. | |||
'''Edit 01/05/24:''' As it turns out, that's not the only instance as Koopa con Carne mentioned below. One Tweet states, "[https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1645854665018429451 Spiny Shells we see you. #SuperMarioMovie is in theaters now - get tickets today!]" [https://www.facebook.com/supermariomovie/videos/theyre-spiny-shells-and-they-have-feelingssupermariomovie/741897647615718 Facebook] and [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrgaGi5p4%20G/ Instagram] also called them that too. That does not necessarily change arguments that these are one-off instances, but now my proposal is a bit more accurate. | |||
Now, I'm not sure how the movie's Twitter account goes. Still, I'm pretty sure this is a case of circular reporting where someone who managed the account mistook their name. Spinies had tons of precedent up to that point of being called what we refer to them today. Now, the movie gives some creative liberties on names, notably [[Banzai Bill|Bomber Bill]]. Still, at least that appears in the movie, while Spinies don't get a name-drop. We have a habit of using names from other sources. Still, for something like this, we can chalk this up as a simple error and not what the Spinies should be called in the movie unless the sequel wants to call them that. [[Ptooie#Mario_Kart_8_Deluxe|Even Nintendo has made mistakes in Tweets when naming their subjects.]] We really shouldn't use apparent mistakes like this as their proper name. | |||
'''Proposer''': {{User|TheUndescribableGhost}}<br> | |||
'''Deadline''': January 18, 2024, 23:59 GMT | |||
====Support==== | |||
#{{User|TheUndescribableGhost}} Per proposal | |||
#{{User|Dark-Boy-1up}} Mistakes happen and that's fine, but that does not mean we have to roll with the error. | |||
#{{User|Camwoodstock}} Combined with the movie calling the [[Spiny Shell (blue)|Spiny Shell ''item'' from Mario Kart the "Blue Shell"]], rolling with the name "Spiny Shell" for these guys because of Exactly One Tweet feels rather silly. While we would understand if this was maybe more consistent, the fact it's literally just one tweet saying this in regards to a scene where the entire joke is that Bowser himself ''doesn't know what the name is'', giving plausible deniability that perhaps the misname was an intentional joke (though not likely), doesn't exactly esteem us to the Spiny Shell name. | |||
#{{User|Waluigi Time}} There's already precedent for overlooking obvious goofs for established subjects like this, as long as it's still mentioned in the article. For example, the only NSMB2-related material that mentions Scuttlebugs and Crowbers is the Prima Guide which just calls them Spiders and Crows, but we still use their regular names while covering that game. If they were actually called this in the movie itself I'd most likely oppose, but like the Prima Guides, this comes from a source that's farther removed from the team that actually worked on the product. | |||
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|PrincessPeachFan}} Per all. It's clearly an error and given that their names were never said in the film ("Whatever those things are!"), move it. | |||
#{{User|Mario}} The social media folks are probably not that particular about the names they were giving Spinies so IMO don't trip over a trivial thing and just call these Spinies. | |||
#{{User|Swallow}} Per all | |||
#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} ''Fine.'' | |||
#{{User|FanOfYoshi}} I mean, they're more than just mere shells in there, right? | |||
#{{User|Killer Moth}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Mushroom Head}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|ThePowerPlayer}} Per whatever those things are. | |||
====Oppose==== | |||
<s>#{{User|Koopa con Carne}} They were called "Spiny Shells" in at least two [https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1645854665018429451 different] [https://twitter.com/supermariomovie/status/1651269921303674901 tweets] by the Mario Movie account, not just one. (EDIT: on [https://www.facebook.com/supermariomovie/videos/theyre-spiny-shells-and-they-have-feelingssupermariomovie/741897647615718 Facebook] and [https://www.instagram.com/reel/CrgaGi5p4_G/ Instagram] too!) That's not to mention that, to my knowledge, neither of these instances of a supposed error have been corrected, unlike the Wiggler Wednesday thing and Ptooie being confused for another enemy. At this point, there's technically more evidence to suggest the name was a genuine creative liberty than there is in favor of it being unintentional. Almost a year ago there was a discussion surrounding [[Talk:Construction Site Fight#Swap this article with Balloon Barrage: proposal edition|"Construction Site Fight"]], a level title from ''Donkey Kong Land'' that many found to be 99% erroneous, and even that discussion had users extremely divided given that the title itself was maintained in later official material; I'd say we have even less reason to meddle with Spiny's given name for the Mario movie.</s> | |||
====Comments==== | |||
1. I'd like to reiterate what I said in my vote that the name was used in two separate tweets (and reiterated by official accounts on other social media sites). The proposer's claim that it only came from one tweet is plainly false.<br>2. @Waluigi Time, those tweets are the only official movie-adjacent material to namedrop Spinies. It doesn't matter that the movie creators' didn't come up with it, all that matters is that there is no other source (higher-priority or otherwise) to call them something else for the movie. For that matter, I disagree with how Scuttlebug's and Crowber's names are handled in info related to NSMB2, especially given how that's inconsistent with the treatment other [[Skewer#Donkey_Kong_Country_Returns_.2F_Donkey_Kong_Country_Returns_3D|subjects]] [[Pokey_Head#Super_Mario_Sunshine|receive]]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 15:44, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
: The Skewers in Donkey Kong Country Returns aren't actually Skewers, they're Skewer-like objects. Also, in the Japanese version of Sunshine, Pokey Heads were called Sanbo Headdo there. PRIMA's strategy guide for Galaxy 2 was referring to them by their actual Japanese translations. Also, it was determined for Crowbers that PRIMA was just using a generic term (I don't count the Scuttlebug because even MP7 called them Spiders). [[User:PrincessPeachFan|PrincessPeachFan]] ([[User talk:PrincessPeachFan|talk]]) 16:26, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
::"The Skewers in Donkey Kong Country Returns aren't actually Skewers [...]" Mario-franchise Skewers in general are borderline generic obstacles, they just happen to have a largely consistent design between games. Nobody objected to listing DKCR shafts on the Skewer page when it underwent the feature nomination process, and that's because they look like skewers, act like skewers, hurt the player like a skewer, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they're as much the skewers you see in Mario platformers as [[Frog]]s are frogs. The Pokey Head/Sanbo Head observation is splitting hairs--"Sanbo Head" is a direct, unadapted translation of their Japanese name so I don't really see your point. "it was determined for Crowbers that PRIMA was just using a generic term" If "crow" was a generic term and not, like, treated like a proper noun or something, fine--that is not what happened with "Spiny Shells" Spinies, however, as those 2 tweets gave them a different, but very much legit for all we know, name. As I said below, calling it an error is largely subjective. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:17, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
:It's exactly the same situation as the NSMB2 Prima Guide though, which is what I'm getting at, and just because it hasn't been applied to similar situations yet doesn't mean it can't be. (Neither of the examples listed are perfectly comparable though, Skewers never appeared in a DK game before and it's a different design, and Pokey Head was introduced with an erroneous name rather than being well-established and having a goof - whether that's extended to Pokeys as a whole is another can of worms.) Our views on this seem to be completely incompatible though so I don't see a need to personally discuss it any further. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 16:35, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
::And yet, "spiders" and "Spiny Shells" being perceived as errors is subjective and unencyclopedic. A fan liberty. People in this proposal are using that line of thinking to argue against the highest-priority official sources that exist for these works, [[MarioWiki:Proposals/Archive/60#Remove_.22Koopa.22_and_other_name_particles_from_Koopaling_article_titles|but that is par for the course on Super Mario Wiki]]. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 16:59, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, and has consistently been established by reliable sources as being, in fact, a duck, then there's nothing subjective or unencyclopedic about continuing to call it a duck just because a less reliable source mistakenly called it a goose on a certain occasion. I'm all for correcting mistakes ''if'' the greater context of material from the franchise as a whole makes it clear that it actually is a mistake. That's all I have to say on the matter. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 17:27, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
::::"I'm all for correcting mistakes ''if'' the greater context of material from the franchise as a whole makes it clear that it actually is a mistake." '''It doesn't.''' [[Piranha Plant#Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door|Name changes can happen on a whim and can even be isolated cases.]] That does not make them errors. The movie doesn't call them anything, but there are 2 (two) different social media posts, both published 2 weeks apart and across multiple sites, that use that name. I'm really sorry, man, but your conviction that it's an error is quite simply unfounded. {{User:Koopa con Carne/Sig}} 17:35, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
:::::I'm not sticking around for a debate, but I'll just point out Crowber's name usage in NSMB2 was agreed upon in [[Talk:Crowber|this proposal]]. {{User:Swallow/sig}} 21:12, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
I know this is a bit off-topic, but the Ptooie thing isn't necessarily a mistake. Not entirely, at least. According to [https://twitter.com/RipBlue_hime/status/1633675352655659008 this tweet], the internal name for the plant's model refers to it as a Stalking Piranha Plant (''TekutekuPackun''), so that's probably why the tweet called them that. Besides, according to the article, they "do not blow any items in Time Trials or when the item settings are not set on Normal Items", and Ptooie's main gimmick is blowing on things, not walking (not all of them even walk), unlike Stalking Piranha Plant. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 17:23, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||
I | :From what I'm aware of, the main thing that differentiates a Stalking Piranha from a Ptooie is that occasionally, it stops walking and stretches out its neck for a couple moments, before it retracts its neck and start walking again. This is something the Piranha Plants in MK8's Riverside Park never do: they walk endlessly and keep items afloat by blowing on it, which only Ptooie does.<br>The internal filename is most likely where the confusion stems from (pun not intended), but it does make me curious what Nintendo of Japan called these Riverside Park Piranhas, since that would certainly add to it. {{User:Arend/sig}} 11:33, January 5, 2024 (EST) | ||
::[[Fire Stalking Piranha Plant]]s don't do the neck-stretch thing, they only walk and spit fireballs in an arc, which implies walking is the main trait of the Stalking Piranha Plant. Anyways, as for what Nintendo of Japan calls the Riverside Park plants, I tried looking but couldn't find anything. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:38, January 5, 2024 (EST) | |||
My two cents? I don't mind either way for the "Spiny Shell" mention as long as it's made clearer to readers that it doesn't appear within the movie itself. We do that sometimes, where we say that "X is referred to in this game as Y", and then it cites a secondary source related to the game but not the game itself. I always thought that was a little odd. [[User:LinkTheLefty|LinkTheLefty]] ([[User talk:LinkTheLefty|talk]]) 19:15, January 4, 2024 (EST) | |||