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Talk:Fiery Dino Piranha (boss): Difference between revisions
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Doc von Schmeltwick moved page Talk:Fiery Dino Piranha to Talk:Fiery Dino Piranha (boss): Moving before merge in order to retain page history (mission page should be moved here)
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==Merge to [[Dino Piranha]] or move to {{fake link|Dino Piranha (Black)}}== | ==Merge to [[Dino Piranha]] or move to {{fake link|Dino Piranha (Black)}}== | ||
{{ | {{SettledTPP}} | ||
{{ProposalOutcome|passed|17-3-14|Merge to Dino Piranha}} | |||
So from what I can gather, the "Fiery Dino Piranha" in the mission title wasn't actually intended to be a proper name for this boss; think "fiery Dino Piranha" rather than "Fiery Dino Piranha," so more "Dino Piranha except this time it's fiery" - this is backed up by the [[Fiery Dino Piranha (mission)#Names in other languages|stage title's name in other languages]], not to mention the creature's own. The PRIMA guide calling it "the Fiery Dino Piranha" is simply yet another example of them taking in-game text to its literal extreme. '''Addendum:''' The same goes for the trading cards, which mirror PRIMA's mistake on calling [[Kingfin]] "the Bonefin." | So from what I can gather, the "Fiery Dino Piranha" in the mission title wasn't actually intended to be a proper name for this boss; think "fiery Dino Piranha" rather than "Fiery Dino Piranha," so more "Dino Piranha except this time it's fiery" - this is backed up by the [[Fiery Dino Piranha (mission)#Names in other languages|stage title's name in other languages]], not to mention the creature's own. The PRIMA guide calling it "the Fiery Dino Piranha" is simply yet another example of them taking in-game text to its literal extreme. '''Addendum:''' The same goes for the trading cards, which mirror PRIMA's mistake on calling [[Kingfin]] "the Bonefin." | ||
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'''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | '''Proposer''': {{User|Doc von Schmeltwick}}<br> | ||
'''Deadline''': November 29, 2023, 23:59 GMT | '''Deadline''': <s>November 29, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> <s>Extended to December 6, 2023, 23:59 GMT</s> Extended to December 13, 2023, 23:59 GMT | ||
===Merge to Dino Piranha=== | ===Merge to Dino Piranha=== | ||
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#{{User|Arend}} This is consistent with how we treated [[King Kaliente]] and [[Motley Bossblob]], who also have recolored, stronger versions in boss battles. Me voting for this option would also be consistent with my vote on [[Talk:Gobblegut (Black)#Merge to Gobblegut|Doc's proposal regarding Gobblegut]]. Heck, it would ''also'' be consistent with how we treated [[Hisstocrat]], in which the pink female version is clearly a separate character from the original male one. | #{{User|Arend}} This is consistent with how we treated [[King Kaliente]] and [[Motley Bossblob]], who also have recolored, stronger versions in boss battles. Me voting for this option would also be consistent with my vote on [[Talk:Gobblegut (Black)#Merge to Gobblegut|Doc's proposal regarding Gobblegut]]. Heck, it would ''also'' be consistent with how we treated [[Hisstocrat]], in which the pink female version is clearly a separate character from the original male one. | ||
#{{User|PaperSplash}} Per all. | #{{User|PaperSplash}} Per all. | ||
#{{User|Okapii}} Per all; I think there's a valid argument for both sides but I lean towards merging for consistency (especially considering Hisstocrat). | #{{User|Okapii}} Per all; I think there's a valid argument for both sides but I lean towards merging for consistency (especially considering Hisstocrat). | ||
#{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per proposer and the others above. | #{{User|Super Game Gear}} Per proposer and the others above. | ||
#{{User|SmokedChili}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|DrippingYellow}} The more I thought it over, the more I became convinced. This isn't a [[Kamek]] or [[Lava Piranha]] situation, where they share the original Japanese name of the enemy they're based on but still have an identity of their own. It seems more of a stretch to me to label this as a member of a species, too, considering the only known instances of this "species" are the original Dino Piranha fight, and this variation (oh, and [[Peewee Piranha]] too I guess), which judging by the Japanese name could very well be just a powered-up version of Dino Piranha. | |||
#{{User|EleCyon}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|Biggestman}} Per all. | |||
#{{User|SolemnStormcloud}} Per all. | |||
===Move to "Dino Piranha (Black)"=== | ===Move to "Dino Piranha (Black)"=== | ||
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#{{User|Mario}} The examples for King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Motely Bossblob are not ideal ones give they're strongly suggested to be rematches, supported by mission names (e.g. King Kaliente's spicy return, Hisstocrat returns, Motley Bossblob's encore) and trading card information ("you fight King Kaliente twice"). Fiery Dino Piranha doesn't have this same indication, and its only evidence for being the same character would be names in other languages... for the missions, but not the Fiery Dino Piranha itself who also has different names in other languages. Gobblegut's case is shaky imo and not ideal from an organizational standpoint (it's a different boss fight and not framed as a rematch like the other three), but its mission names not making a distinction of its name ("Gobblegut's Snacktime" or something) is probably the real difference here. | #{{User|Mario}} The examples for King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Motely Bossblob are not ideal ones give they're strongly suggested to be rematches, supported by mission names (e.g. King Kaliente's spicy return, Hisstocrat returns, Motley Bossblob's encore) and trading card information ("you fight King Kaliente twice"). Fiery Dino Piranha doesn't have this same indication, and its only evidence for being the same character would be names in other languages... for the missions, but not the Fiery Dino Piranha itself who also has different names in other languages. Gobblegut's case is shaky imo and not ideal from an organizational standpoint (it's a different boss fight and not framed as a rematch like the other three), but its mission names not making a distinction of its name ("Gobblegut's Snacktime" or something) is probably the real difference here. | ||
#{{User|Crazy Mr. L Fanguy}} In the Throwback Throwdown mission in Super Mario Galaxy 2 Dino Piranha and Firey Dino Piranha are fought separately and hatch from two different eggs. I think that is evidence enough these characters are not the same. | #{{User|Crazy Mr. L Fanguy}} In the Throwback Throwdown mission in Super Mario Galaxy 2 Dino Piranha and Firey Dino Piranha are fought separately and hatch from two different eggs. I think that is evidence enough these characters are not the same. | ||
#{{User|YoYo}} per all. | #{{User|YoYo}} per all. | ||
<s>#{{User|Remembered Old Buddy}} I’d support if [[Gobblegut]] and [[Gobblegut (Black)|Fiery Gobblegut]] are also separated, but the Gobbleguts are split because the fights are completely different.</s> | #{{User|Ninja Squid}} Per all. | ||
<s>#{{User|Remembered Old Buddy}} I’d support if [[Gobblegut]] and [[Gobblegut (Black)|Fiery Gobblegut]] are also separated, but the Gobbleguts are split because the fights are completely different.</s><br> | |||
<s>#{{User|DrippingYellow}} Per Mario and Mr. L Fanguy. Even if I didn't think it that distinct, I'd still advocate for its own article since it reappears in ''Galaxy 2''. Also, if we're going to stick closely to the rules, I'd like to go ahead and point out that Mario Portal is not really covered anywhere in the tiers of naming priority, and the Prima guide is at number '''2''' in priority, only behind manuals and the games themselves. Might be something to make a proposal for...</s> | |||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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::::::::: Actually, you're probably onto something. The main point of contention here seems to be if websites should be a higher or lower priority than guidebooks, which they currently are no matter what way you slice it (content on websites themselves are level 4, whereas content only embedded in the website's data are level 7). We feel like this depends ''heavily'' on when the website was made (similarly to how we split guides based on if they released pre- or post-''Galaxy''), but also, like you alluded to, this is definitely getting '''''way''''' off topic for this proposal specifically. If we're planning on changing the name priority system, we should probably do that at another time. For now, though, with the priorities as they are, guides do take priority over websites overall, so make of that what you will. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:27, November 17, 2023 (EST) | ::::::::: Actually, you're probably onto something. The main point of contention here seems to be if websites should be a higher or lower priority than guidebooks, which they currently are no matter what way you slice it (content on websites themselves are level 4, whereas content only embedded in the website's data are level 7). We feel like this depends ''heavily'' on when the website was made (similarly to how we split guides based on if they released pre- or post-''Galaxy''), but also, like you alluded to, this is definitely getting '''''way''''' off topic for this proposal specifically. If we're planning on changing the name priority system, we should probably do that at another time. For now, though, with the priorities as they are, guides do take priority over websites overall, so make of that what you will. {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 12:27, November 17, 2023 (EST) | ||
::::::::::Even if its name ''is'' Fiery Dino Piranha, why is that alone a reason not to merge it? It's still very inconsistent with Hisstocrat and King Kaliente (and soon likely Gobblegut as well), and even if the rules mean Mario Portal's name shouldn't be used here (which I'm a bit doubtful of given a bunch of pages were already moved because of it but I digress), it still shows that Nintendo treats Dino Piranha's variant the same as it treats those of the other bosses. Not to mention the point in the proposal that seems to have been ignored about how the regular Dino Piranha also used fireballs in Mario & Sonic. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:03, November 18, 2023 (EST) | ::::::::::Even if its name ''is'' Fiery Dino Piranha, why is that alone a reason not to merge it? It's still very inconsistent with Hisstocrat and King Kaliente (and soon likely Gobblegut as well), and even if the rules mean Mario Portal's name shouldn't be used here (which I'm a bit doubtful of given a bunch of pages were already moved because of it but I digress), it still shows that Nintendo treats Dino Piranha's variant the same as it treats those of the other bosses. Not to mention the point in the proposal that seems to have been ignored about how the regular Dino Piranha also used fireballs in Mario & Sonic. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 05:03, November 18, 2023 (EST) | ||
:::::::::::It took us a while to think of a message to say in regards to this <s>because life got way too hectic for us to care about piranha plant species, a tragic fate to befall one</s>, but we think we have one now. In short, we think the characters that do not have an article on their own, despite having an explicitly defined name, can literally be counted on one hand, and it's... um... it's Pink Donkey Kong Jr., aka Junior (II). It's ''literally'' just him, unless there's some remote character that also holds that title. The main reason he lacks an article in spite of his name is that Pink Donkey Kong Jr. is just kind of a stock player 2 with literally zero divergent character to him whatsoever. His name is literally Junior (II) in the manual, for crying out loud--Pink Donkey Kong Jr. isn't asserting himself as a unique entity, he's just kind of labelled as another Donkey Kong Jr. that happens to be visually distinct, and the label thusly gives him a name to denote him as "the second Donkey Kong Jr.", which puts him more on the line with stuff like the Bossblobs or Hisstocrats or even the Kalientes.<br>Fiery Dino Piranha, in contrast, '''is''' asserted to be his own subspecies. While yes, the ordinary Dino Piranha has borrowed a few of its tricks in spinoffs, that's honestly not that much different from, say, the Smash Ultimate Piranha Plant borrowing every other Piranha Plant's tricks while still being united as just being ''A'' piranha plant, to represent the species. Likewise, we think the logic is that, when Ordinary Dino Piranha has a reference to Fiery Dino Piranha, it is similarly done less in the need for claiming that they're the same thing, but as just a way to consolidate roles, while still retaining the reference--in essence, the Dino Piranha in Mario & Sonic is just ''A'' Dino Piranha representing the rest of them and their subspecies, not ''the'' Dino Piranha. (We would generally hope the consensus is that merging all the Piranha Plants that the ''Ultimate'' fighter represents into the stock Piranha Plant article would be "a bad idea.")<br>Considering Pink Donkey Kong Jr. is already such a baffling edge-case born of an era where Nintendo was nowhere near as protective of being 100% brand-consistent, and Fiery Dino Piranha was born just out of wanting to introduce a subspecies of a pre-existing boss, we feel like the name means a ''lot'', actually. Pink Donkey Kong Jr. only kinda has a name, which only asserts him to be what he truly is--a (II)nd Junior. Fiery Dino Piranha has a name expressly stated in guides and in merch, and it denotes him as being a subspecies of the Dino Piranha encountered earlier in the game. <small>We hope this makes sense, we realize it's 4PM but we are already in "What a day, huh?" mode, and oh Gods, this became way longer than it felt to type...</small> {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 15:56, November 26, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::::::::::Not entirely sure why you brought up Pink Donkey Kong Jr., multiplayer recolours of player 1 with absolutely no distinction (being called "Junior (II)" in a manual that calls the main DKJ "Junior (I)" doesn't count as a distinction) are a different situation altogether from these boss variants. Names aren't the only thing that govern splits and merges ([[Purple Captain Toad]] exists, on the topic of recolours of player 1), they're just one of several factors. More on topic: "''Fiery Dino Piranha, in contrast, '''is''' asserted to be his own subspecies''" - uh, no? It was excluded from the list in Smash that every other Piranha Plant from the Galaxy games was included in, it's identified in the mission names in seemingly every other language as just Dino Piranha but now in a fire place, it had its supposed name (which is dubious for reasons already explained) completely ignored by Mario Portal, and, once again, it's treated exactly the same as the other boss variants on Mario Portal, clearly showing that Nintendo doesn't intend to give this one any special treatment. So why should we? Dino Piranha (Black) is no more "asserted to be his own subspecies" than Gobblegut (Black), King Kaliente (Black), and Hisstocrat (pink) all are (also keep in mind the Hisstocrats are merged despite both being fought at the same time). {{User:Hewer/sig}} 08:43, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::::::::::...We brought up Pink Donkey Kong Junior because we expressly stated he is the one, the only character we can think of that 1) has a stated name (Junior (II)) and 2) lacks an article or section of an article all to himself. This is something we want to make as unambiguous as possible.<br>As for the "They're not any more of a subspecies than the [INSERT OTHER GALAXY REFIGHTS AND 3D WORLD BOSSES HERE]" thing; we will once again be deferring to Viridi's speech about Piranha Plant subspecies, and how Nintendo generally seems to, by direct contrast, actually care distinguishing species of Piranha Plants in particular. This isn't like Black Motley Bossblob over Red Moltey Blossbob over Gold Tomjones Blaseball, which Nintendo flat-out neglects entirely; they take the time to distinguish between Fiery versions of other Piranha Plants (when they remember they exist), they don't exactly claim the ordinary Piranha Plant covers the existence of the Fiery Piranha Plant. Nintendo, also, probably would've had Viridi say she "wasn't even talking about all the minor subspecies" if they weren't 100% sure they ''probably'' missed some. Some like, say, one exclusive to what was effectively a boss rematch from a development standpoint and the only source for a name was a guidebook (that guidebook being the one that our naming policies explicitly denote as "this is the one we start actually caring what these say!", mind you) and an old obscure piece of merchandise that only grows more obscure the further we get from 2007, that could've easily flown under the radar unless Nintendo was deliberately using our own wiki to cross-reference things; and we know for a fact that they almost certainly weren't, seeing as they had split Petea Piranha before we ever did.<br>But when there's two distinct pieces of print media--including that guidebook--saying the contrary that "Fiery Dino Piranha is the name of this guy", and Nintendo doesn't seem keen to debunk it in any meaningful capacity despite having ample time to do exactly that with 3DAS, we find it hard to not take their word on it. Especially seeing as the only thing to say to the contrary is a website; web content, as mentioned quite awhile back now, has a lower priority on our naming guidelines than guidebooks do. We don't think that it makes sense to give some weird exception where ''only'' Fiery Dino Piranha's print name doesn't matter, and his web name matters more with the current state of the naming guidelines. And all of that is just kind of for the name itself, not about the Fiery Dino Piranha boss fight featuring unique elements to it, how he appears separate from Ordinary Dino Piranha in the same level at one point, how he appears in both games, or for how he gets referenced in the Olympic games <s>which why that's still shoved in a trivia section still is beyond us</s>--y'know, stuff that was the ''other'' main thing this proposal was about.<br>We feel the need to be as clear as possible about something after everything else above: Should you, for whatever reason, still feel that website names should take precedent over the guidebook names, we're not saying that is an inherently "wrong" idea, per say, especially in a world where a lot of stuff is still slowly but surely migrating from physical print to digital data; we just want to make it clear that, ''as of this proposal'', no web content is taking priority over guidebooks, and there is no proposal to change this going on either. So we are going to vote on this specific proposal--and base our arguments and rationality to our vote--as such. In addition, if you are to make a proposal to change this at some point, do realize that this will almost inevitably impact a ''lot'' of other articles, not just this one; it turns out there's a lot of things we only had names for because of guidebooks before stuff like the Mario Portal was made, so this is in fact a substantial policy change to make...<br>And, uh, we guess Fiery Dino Piranha is one such example of an article that'd change drastically under that policy, we guess. ;P {{User:Camwoodstock/sig}} 11:20, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::::::::::::Pretty sure the point there is they ''don't'' care about distinguishing those ones... hence why they only mentioned them as a "oh there's others too BTW" kind of statement. Also, please recall the point about the purple Dino Piranha spitting fireballs as well in ''Mario & Sonic''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 12:06, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::::::::::::"We brought up Pink Donkey Kong Junior because we expressly stated he is the one, the only character we can think of that 1) has a stated name (Junior (II)) and 2) lacks an article or section of an article all to himself." Well, there's also the weird Yoshi's Island guide's "Coin Bandit", "Seedy Sally" etc. And a lot of names from that guide have since been used in-game, so it's not like it's forgotten. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:13, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::::::::::::Also, [[Purple Captain Toad]], and [[Talk:Lakitu in a Pipe#Merge with Lakitu: Le proposal|this ongoing proposal]], and almost certainly more I'm not thinking of. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:12, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::::::::::::The whole chunk of your comment about how much Nintendo cares about distinguishing Piranha Plants feels like an argument in the proposal's favour if anything, given they did not distinguish Fiery Dino Piranha in Viridi's list. Also, while it's true they did have things in that list that the wiki didn't at the time, [[Polterpiranha|I wouldn't be]] [[Nipper Dandelion|so sure]] that they didn't look at the wiki at all. I'm also unsure what you would've expected them to do differently in 3D All-Stars, a collection of ports with few changes - it's not like there were any "errors" in the original game, the other language names seem to suggest "Fiery Dino Piranha" wasn't meant to be taken as a literal name anyway. As for the Mario Portal thing, you're misunderstanding my argument here - I'm not saying the name from Mario Portal necessarily takes priority over the guide name (I'm not voting to move to Dino Piranha (Black), after all), but I ''am'' saying that Mario Portal shows an intention by Nintendo to consider Dino Piranha's variants the same as those of Gobblegut et al. The policy you keep citing is the naming policy - its only purpose is to list acceptable sources for naming, not to list acceptable sources for intent by Nintendo, and Mario Portal, on top of being much more recent than the Prima guide, was made directly by Nintendo. The "weird exception" here is not merging Fiery Dino Piranha like we are every other boss variant. And as for "''the Fiery Dino Piranha boss fight featuring unique elements to it, how he appears separate from Ordinary Dino Piranha in the same level at one point''", I remind you once again that Hisstocrat and Hisstocrat (pink) are merged despite clearly being two separate individuals that are fought simultaneously. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 13:12, November 27, 2023 (EST) | |||
@Metalex123: King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Gobblegut all have their alternate versions separate on Mario Portal as well, as King Kaliente (Black), Hisstocrat (pink), and Gobblegut (Black), respectively, but King Kaliente and Hisstocrat are merged with their variants anyway. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:38, November 17, 2023 (EST) | @Metalex123: King Kaliente, Hisstocrat, and Gobblegut all have their alternate versions separate on Mario Portal as well, as King Kaliente (Black), Hisstocrat (pink), and Gobblegut (Black), respectively, but King Kaliente and Hisstocrat are merged with their variants anyway. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 10:38, November 17, 2023 (EST) | ||
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::I'm not really sure of the sources for the "other languages" names on the black Dino Piranha, though. Given the mission titles in those languages ''do'' just call it a Dino Piranha, I'm not sure where the "pyro" and such names come from since they're unsourced and there's nowhere else in the game they could be mentioned. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, November 21, 2023 (EST) | ::I'm not really sure of the sources for the "other languages" names on the black Dino Piranha, though. Given the mission titles in those languages ''do'' just call it a Dino Piranha, I'm not sure where the "pyro" and such names come from since they're unsourced and there's nowhere else in the game they could be mentioned. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 17:04, November 21, 2023 (EST) | ||
:Also, the point about both versions of Dino Piranha coexisting in one mission... that doesn't mean much? Dino Piranha is already treated as a species on the wiki (character vs species isn't a very helpful distinction when it comes to most Mario games, but anyway...), so there being more than one isn't a big deal. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:53, November 25, 2023 (EST) | :Also, the point about both versions of Dino Piranha coexisting in one mission... that doesn't mean much? Dino Piranha is already treated as a species on the wiki (character vs species isn't a very helpful distinction when it comes to most Mario games, but anyway...), so there being more than one isn't a big deal. [[User:Blinker|Blinker]] ([[User talk:Blinker|talk]]) 12:53, November 25, 2023 (EST) | ||
::If Dino Piranha is a species then why wouldn't we treat the fiery version as a variant? --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 11:47, December 7, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::Because the official word treats it as a color variation. See the [[Bowser Statue]]s in ''[[Super Mario World]]''. [[User:Doc von Schmeltwick|Doc von Schmeltwick]] ([[User talk:Doc von Schmeltwick|talk]]) 11:49, December 7, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::I'm starting to feel like a broken record bringing up the two [[Hisstocrat]]s that are merged. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 12:04, December 7, 2023 (EST) | |||
::::This feels like another Bubble Dayzee situation where this is only a color variant depending on which source you're looking at, so I'm not convinced (in general, I really don't agree that being a color variant is reason enough to merge as a lot of users think it is, especially with that definition being stretched further and further). Hisstocrat isn't a perfect comparison in my opinion since there's never been an effort to distinguish them besides the French NOE localization. We can talk about Prima being dubious all we want but this case is ambiguous enough that it's just as speculative to say they made a "mistake" (though I would say it was a perfectly reasonable interpretation on their part and is only a potential mistake in the sense that they didn't have mind reading powers) and took the mission name literally. Maybe the English localizers saw Fiery Dino Piranha and wanted to give it a unique name, or maybe they didn't and just meant a fiery Dino Piranha. Unfortunately we just don't know. For a word on Mario Portal, it makes sense that it didn't use the Fiery Dino Piranha name because that was never used in Japan, and as far as I'm aware it's a more straight translation of the Japanese material. Not comfortable using it by itself as an override for an in-game name. --{{User:Waluigi Time/sig}} 13:35, December 7, 2023 (EST) | |||
:::::We wouldn't know whether {{hover|Fiery|fiery}} Dino Piranha was an intentional name or not, which is where Mario Portal comes in as evidence that either it wasn't or it was but they changed their minds (the English Mario Portal does use localised English names). But regardless, I don't think a supposed individual name (much less such an uncertain one) is enough justification for the glaring inconsistency with Hisstocrat, King Kaliente, and now Gobblegut. {{User:Hewer/sig}} 15:51, December 7, 2023 (EST) | |||