MarioWiki:Proposals

Current time: Wednesday, May 15th, 18:20 GMT

Proposals can be new features (such as an extension), the removal of previously-added features that have tired out, or new policies that must be approved via consensus before any action is taken. "Vote" periods last for one week. Any user can support or oppose, but must have a strong reason for doing so (not, e.g., "I like this idea!"). All proposals must be approved by a majority of voters, including proposals with more than two options. For past proposals, see the proposal archive and the talk page proposal archive.

A proposal section works like a discussion page: comments are brought up and replied to using indents (colons, such as : or ::::) and all edits are signed using the code {{User|User name}}.

How to

Rules

1. If users have an idea about improving the wiki or managing its community, but feel that they need community approval before acting upon that idea, they may make a proposal about it. They must have a strong argument supporting their idea and be willing to discuss it in detail with the other users, who will then vote about whether or not they think the idea should be used. Proposals should include links to all relevant pages and writing guidelines. Proposals must include a link to the draft page. Any pages that would be largely affected by the proposal should be marked with {{proposal notice}}.
2. Only registered, autoconfirmed users can create, comment in, or vote on proposals and talk page proposals. Users may vote for more than one option, but they may not vote for every option available.
3. Proposals end at the end of the day (23:59) one week after voting starts, except for writing guidelines and talk page proposals, which run for two weeks (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, the voting starts immediately and the deadline is one week later on Monday, August 8, at 23:59 GMT.
4. Every vote should have a strong, sensible reason accompanying it. Agreeing with a previously mentioned reason given by another user is accepted (including "per" votes), but tangential comments, heavy sarcasm, and other misleading or irrelevant quips are just as invalid as providing no reason at all.
5. Users who feel that certain votes were cast in bad faith or which truly have no merit can address the votes in the comments section. Users can ask a voter to clarify their position, point out mistakes or flaws in their arguments, or call for the outright removal of the vote if it lacks sufficient reasoning. Users may not remove or alter the content of anyone else's votes. Voters can remove or rewrite their own vote at any time, but the final decision to remove another user's vote lies solely with the administrators.
   • Users can also use the comments section to bring up any concerns or mistakes in regards to the proposal itself. In such cases, it's important the proposer addresses any concerns raised as soon as possible. Even if the supporting side might be winning by a wide margin, that should be no reason for such questions to be left unanswered. They may point out any missing details that might have been overlooked by the proposer, so it's a good idea as the proposer to check them frequently to achieve the most accurate outcome possible.
6. If a user makes a vote and is subsequently blocked for any amount of time, their vote is removed. However, if the block ends before the proposal ends, then the user in question holds the right to re-cast their vote. If a proposer is blocked, their vote is removed and "(banned)" is added next to their name in the "Proposer:" line of the proposal, which runs until its deadline as normal. If the proposal passes, it falls to the supporters of the idea to enact any changes in a timely manner.
7. No proposal can overturn the decision of a previous proposal that is less than 4 weeks (28 days) old.
8. Any proposal where none of the options have at least four votes will be extended for another week. If after three extensions, no options have at least four votes, the proposal will be listed as "NO QUORUM." The original proposer then has the option to relist said proposal to generate more discussion.
9. All proposals that end up in a tie will be extended for another week. Proposals with more than two options must also be extended another week if any single option does not have a majority support: i.e. more than half of the total number of voters must appear in a single voting option, rather than one option simply having more votes than the other options.
10. If a proposal with only two voting options has more than ten votes, it can only pass or fail with a margin of at least three votes, otherwise the deadline will be extended for another week as if no majority was reached at all.
11. Proposals can only be extended up to three times. If a consensus has not been reached by the fourth deadline, the proposal fails and can only be re-proposed after four weeks, at the earliest.
12. All proposals are archived. The original proposer must take action accordingly if the outcome of the proposal dictates it. If it requires the help of an administrator, the proposer can ask for that help.
13. If the administrators deem a proposal unnecessary or potentially detrimental to the upkeep of the Super Mario Wiki, they have the right to remove it at any time.
14. Proposals can only be rewritten or deleted by their proposer within the first three days of their creation (six days for talk page proposals). However, proposers can request that their proposal be deleted by an administrator at any time, provided they have a valid reason for it. Please note that canceled proposals must also be archived.
15. Unless there is major disagreement about whether certain content should be included, there should not be proposals about creating, expanding, rewriting or otherwise fixing up pages. To organize efforts about improving articles on neglected or completely missing subjects, try setting up a collaboration thread on the forums.
16. Proposals cannot be made about promotions and demotions. Users can only be promoted and demoted by the will of the administration.
17. No joke proposals. Proposals are serious wiki matters and should be handled professionally. Joke proposals will be deleted on sight.
18. Proposals must have a status quo option (e.g. Oppose, Do nothing) unless the status quo itself violates policy.

Basic proposal and support/oppose format

This is an example of what your proposal must look like, if you want it to be acknowledged. If you are inexperienced or unsure how to set up this format, simply copy the following and paste it into the fitting section. Then replace the [subject] - variables with information to customize your proposal, so it says what you wish. If you insert the information, be sure to replace the whole variable including the squared brackets, so "[insert info here]" becomes "This is the inserted information", not "[This is the inserted information]". Proposals presenting multiple alternative courses of action can have more than two voting options, but what each voting section is supporting must be clearly defined. Such options should also be kept to a minimum, and if something comes up in the comments, the proposal can be amended as necessary.

---

===[insert a title for your proposal here]===
[describe what issue this proposal is about and what changes you think should be made to improve how the wiki handles that issue]

'''Proposer''': {{User|[enter your username here]}}<br>
'''Deadline''': [insert a deadline here, 7 days after the proposal was created (14 for writing guidelines and talk page proposals), at 23:59 GMT, in the format: "May 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT"]

====Support====
#{{User|[enter your username here]}} [make a statement indicating that you support your proposal]

====Oppose====

====Comments====

---

Users will now be able to vote on your proposal, until the set deadline is reached. Remember, you are a user as well, so you can vote on your own proposal just like the others.

To support, or oppose, just insert "#{{User|[add your username here]}}" at the bottom of the section of your choice. Just don't forget to add a valid reason for your vote behind that tag if you are voting on another user's proposal. If you are voting on your own proposal, you can just say "Per my proposal".

Talk page proposals

All proposals dealing with a single article or a specific group of articles are held on the talk page of one of the articles in question. Proposals dealing with massive amounts of splits, merges or deletions across the wiki should still be held on this page.

For a list of all settled talk page proposals, see MarioWiki:Proposals/TPP archive and Category:Settled talk page proposals.

Rules

1. All active talk page proposals must be listed below in chronological order (new proposals go at the bottom) using {{TPPDiscuss}}. Include a brief description of the proposal while also mentioning any pages affected by it, a link to the talk page housing the discussion, and the deadline. If the proposal involves a page that is not yet made, use {{fake link}} to communicate its title in the description. Linking to pages not directly involved in the talk page proposal is not recommended, as it clutters the list with unnecessary links. Place {{TPP}} under the section's header, and once the proposal is over, replace the template with {{SettledTPP}}.
2. All rules for talk page proposals are the same as mainspace proposals (see the "How to" section above), with the exceptions made by Rules 3 and 4 as follows:
3. Voting in talk page proposals will be open for two weeks, not one (all times GMT).
   • For example, if a proposal is added at any time on Monday, August 1, 2011, it ends two weeks later on Monday, August 15, 2011, at 23:59 GMT.
4. The talk page proposal must pertain to the article it is posted on.
5. When a talk page proposal passes, it should be removed from this list and included in the list under the "Unimplemented proposals" section until the proposed changes have been enacted.

List of ongoing talk page proposals

• Split "Team Dinosaur" from The Dinosaurs (discuss) Deadline: May 15, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Merge Hat trampoline (Cascade Kingdom) to Trampoline (discuss) Deadline: May 15th, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• In Template:Species infobox, expand "Relatives" guidelines to include variant-type relationships with significant differences between species (discuss) Deadline: May 12, 2024, 23:59 GMT May 19, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Rename Moneybags to Moneybag (enemy) (discuss) Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT May 20, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Delete Memory Card (discuss) Deadline: May 23, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Add a Composers Subsection to Template:Themes (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Include Rainbow Coaster & Rainbow Downhill back in the Rainbow Road article (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT
• Split the contents of the blimp page (discuss) Deadline: May 28, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Unimplemented proposals

Proposals

Merge the Wrecking Crew and VS. Wrecking Crew phases into list articles, Axis (ended February 24, 2022)

Do not consider usage of classic recurring themes as references to the game of origin, Swallow (ended March 9, 2022)

Split Mario Kart Tour character variants into list articles, Tails777 (ended May 4, 2022)

Enforce WCAG Level AA standards to mainspace and template content, PanchamBro (ended May 29, 2022)

Change how RPG enemy infoboxes classify role, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 18, 2022)

Trim away detailed special move information for all non-Mario fighters, Koopa con Carne (ended January 30, 2023)

• ^Note: This has yet to be done with with several non–Super Mario fighters who still have their own page; namely, Banjo, Fox, Inkling, Isabelle, Kirby, Link, Mega Man, Pac-Man, R.O.B., Sonic, and Villager.

Classify the Just Dance series as a guest appearance, Spectrogram (ended April 27, 2023)

Establish a standard for long course listings in articles for characters/enemies/items/etc., Koopa con Carne (ended June 8, 2023)

Consider filenames as sources and create redirects, Axis (ended August 24, 2023)

Add tabbers to race/battle course articles, GuntherBB (ended November 18, 2023)

Remove elemental creatures categories from various Super Mario RPG enemies, Swallow (ended January 11, 2024)

Standardize the formatting of foreign and explanatory words and phrases in "Names in other languages" tables, Annalisa10 (ended February 7, 2024)

Merge Super Mario Bros. (film) subjects with their game counterparts, JanMisali (ended April 18, 2024)

Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki, Koopa con Carne (ended April 30, 2024)

Talk page proposals

Split all the clothing, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 12, 2021)

Split the various reissues of Mario Bros., Doc von Schmeltwick (ended April 22, 2022)

Split machine parts, Robo-Rabbit, and flag from Super Duel Mode, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended September 30, 2022)

Expand source priority exception to include regional English differences, LinkTheLefty (ended January 14, 2023)

Add product IDs in game infoboxes, Windy (ended March 18, 2023)

Remove the list of Super Smash Bros. series objects, Axis (ended May 10, 2023)

Split Special Shot into separate articles by game, Technetium (ended September 30, 2023)

Convert the lists of episode appearances for television series characters into categories, Camwoodstock (ended November 22, 2023)

Change the Super Mario 64 DS level section to include more specific character requirements, Altendo (ended December 20, 2023)

Split the Jungle Buddies from Animal Friends, DrippingYellow (ended December 22, 2023)

Make bestiary list pages for the Minion Quest and Bowser Jr.'s Journey modes, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 11, 2024)

Merge the ghost Bats and Mice from Luigi's Mansion to their respective organic counterparts from the later games, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)

Split Strobomb from Robomb, Doc von Schmeltwick (ended January 20, 2024)

Split the NES and SNES releases of Wario's Woods, SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (ended March 27, 2024)

Merge Mii Brawler, Mii Swordfighter, and Mii Gunner to Mii, TheUndescribableGhost (ended March 28, 2024)

Split Mario's Time Machine (Nintendo Entertainment System), or the Super Nintendo Entertainment version along with both console versions of Mario is Missing!, LinkTheLefty (ended April 11, 2024)

Remove non-Super Mario content from Super Smash Bros. series challenges articles, BMfan08 (ended May 3, 2024)

Merge Stompybot 3000 with Colonel Pluck, DrippingYellow (ended May 4, 2024)

Writing guidelines

Repeal the "derived names" having priority over official names in other languages

Recently, a (completely undiscussed) amendment was made to the naming system making it so quote-unquote "derived names" - as in, standard conjectural names made by cut-n-pasting descriptors from similar entities - have priority over official names from other languages (particularly the games' language of origin, which for this franchise is usually Japanese). While allowing said "derived names" as conjecture makes sense, it comes with several pitfalls, and my main concern is it is turning into a slippery slope. Much of it is discussed on the talk page for the so-called "Hefty Goombrat," which is a sterling example of why this was not a good idea. I have also been recently seeing cases of people moving to subjects based on objects sharing some adjective with a random obscure object in the same game, as demonstrated here. To be blunt, this was a short-sighted idea (and more than likely, simply a failed experiment) and needs cut back to a reasonable level before it gets out of hand. For the record, I am favor of letting it stay when the only indications in other languages or file names or what-have-you are generic terms rather than clear "names," for instance when the only confirmed name for Shoot was just "jugador de futbol," as well as rewording clunky generic descriptors like "vehicle with surfboard."

Proposer: Doc von Schmeltwick (talk)
Deadline: May 13, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Per.
2. Hewer (talk) Per proposal, these names are conjectural and shouldn't be unduly given more weight than their fellow conjectural names.
3. Koopa con Carne (talk) Might just be me but I'd rather not have a policy that specifically states "if you don't like this official name, just completely ignore it and make up something wacky instead" because that's not what this site is even remotely about
4. Axis (talk) Per all.
5. JanMisali (talk) Per proposal. While some of these derived names are fine and it's sensible to have this as an option, it shouldn't take priority over an official name when one exists.
6. Camwoodstock (talk) ...Okay, yeah, KCC makes a good point we didn't think of, so, surprise! We're changing our vote! Conjectural names have their place, but we really shouldn't prioritize them over actual names if they exist.
7. LinkTheLefty (talk) I'm pretty sure this all started here, and...yeah, in practice, conjectural exceptions bloat the elegant naming policy. Plus, this is practically begging to have more "Fire Nipper Plant"-esque situations.
8. Blinker (talk) Per all.
9. Somethingone (talk) Per the arguments raised above.

Oppose

1. Archivist Toadette (talk) While I agree that some discussions may need to be made on what counts as derived conjecture and what doesn't, a flat-out repeal is not the way to go about this. Plus, some of these derived conjecture names are completely straightforward (such as "Fire Spike" or "Wonder Hoppycat"), as in we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject.
2. Waluigi Time (talk) The only problem with this policy is that it's being applied in cases and/or ways that it shouldn't be (I personally think Hefty Goombrat was a step too far). If it's kept to reasonable use like the examples Archivist Toadette gave, it's fine. No need to repeal the entire thing.
3. SolemnStormcloud (talk) Per opposition.
4. Hooded Pitohui (talk) Per Archivist Toadette, really. To me, it does seem greater caution and discussion on these derived names is warranted, but a case-by-case approach seems more useful here than a flat-out repeal. I'd be worried about throwing the baby out with the bathwater, here, tossing away something that's generally beneficial to readers in the process of correcting a few cases where this has been misapplied.
5. Tails777 (talk) Per all.
6. Shoey (talk) Per all.
7. DrippingYellow (talk) I seriously fail to see how this is a problem. If you have a Japanese noun that has had a direct, consistent translation across multiple pieces of English Mario media (i.e. gabon to Spike, kakibo to Goombrat, deka to "Big" enemies, admittedly kodeka for "Hefty" enemies is pushing it since we really only have Hefty Goombas as an official translation), then the way I see it this replacement of terms is no different than how we've been treating internal names. We already have a rule on not "partially translating" names, so I'd maybe expand on that to prohibit creating translations for words that don't have a consistent translation across games, but I wouldn't get rid of the derived name rule altogether. (i.e. Sensuikan Heihō does not become "Submarine Shy Guy" or even "Sensuikan Shy Guy")

#Camwoodstock (talk) Per all, especially Waluigi Time. We really ought to be handling poor names born from this policy on a case-by-case basis, rather than nixing the policy altogether and potentially causing more harm than good.

Comments

@Opposition I did say in the last sentence that this isn't removing it completely, just changing its position in the "acceptable naming" hierarchy. The reason I said "repeal" is an incarnation of it existed before for generic-borne titles and I am trying to go back to that as - unlike the current iteration - it isn't just begging to be misused. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I guess the best way to put it is this: if an official name that is a name exists, period, there is no excuse whatsoever for there to be a "conjecture" template of any sort. That's not hypothesizing, that's ignoring, and to be frank is a grotesque perversion of the policies this site has had for decades that have not caused any harm whatsoever - meanwhile, these have plenty of potential for misleading people. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 02:08, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Then what about the examples I brought up? ^(T|C) 07:30, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

What about them? They have official names, but the wiki opts to give them explicitly conjectural ones because apparently a couple of sysops thought so. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 07:33, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I still find the idea that these names are "conjectural" to be kind of weird, if that's the big hang-up here. If we can already take some liberties with Japanese titles I don't see why we can't just look at something and say "oh, this is literally Goomba's Japanese name, let's just call it Goomba", especially when the name is partially English already. That's just doing some simple translation, not really making conjectural names? I'm speaking as someone with no background in translation, mind you, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. -- Too Bad! Waluigi Time! 12:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Conjecture occurs when you're presuming something to be the case in the absence of hard facts. Archive Toadette states in his vote that "we can reasonably assume that Nintendo of America or Nintendo of Europe would pick these names for the respective subject". "Assume". That's the thrust of this policy: assumption. Which is pretty much synonymous with conjecture, and some editors are taking issue with prioritizing that over official names. Regarding the liberties on Japanese names, there's nothing conjectural about adapting something like Sunaipā to "Sniper", because it's literally the word's Japanese transliteration--the romanization reflects how the word sounds when converted to Japanese writing. Note how that policy states that instances of "Kuppa" should be adapted to "Koopa", and not "Bowser", even though that's his Japanese name. "Kuribo" wouldn't be adapted to "Goomba" in article titles because that's not a transliteration, that a compound of actual Japanese morphemes. The basis of the Japanese naming policy isn't the same as that of the conjectural naming policy. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:43, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

@Hooded Pitohui: Could you be more specific on what is or isn't acceptable? Because I'm kind of struggling to picture any time these conjectural names should have priority over an actual official name, or what would make that case different to others (note that they'd still take priority over filenames per the proposal). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:01, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

I think it may be helpful to start with a disclaimer and an acknowledgement of where I'm coming from in casting a vote. I'm a very infrequent, casual editor on the wiki side of things, so when I do wade into these proposals on the intricacies of the wiki's policies on naming or classification or scope of coverage, I don't often have a large repository of examples to draw upon, and rarely am I able (or attempting to) make any kind of case or argument. Generally, I'm entering these discussions from the perspective of a reader/user of the wiki first, and casual contributor second, and generally my votes are going to be informed by that perspective, so I apologize if this seems a bit broad and dealing in hypotheticals. For me, I'd think anything that's a straight localization of a recurring, official enemy/item/what have you is acceptable, and more adjectival/descriptive parts of a name or a name of something that hasn't really had a localization established is not. To use the cited Hefty Goombrat example, "Hefty" probably shouldn't have been conjecturally localized, but a Goombrat is pretty clearly a Goombrat, so conjecturally localizing that part seems fine to me. If, I don't know, Nintendo introduces a Lakitu that throws fireballs down that become Firesnakes, and it's called "[something] Jugem" officially in Japanese material, again, I think we leave the descriptive part as-is because there's no clear precedent, but we know a "Jugem/Jugemu" is consistently localized as Lakitu, so we might as well localize that because an average reader will recognize "Lakitu" quickly. Meanwhile, if we just got, say, a generic cloud spitting fireballs with the same behavior, I'd say we'd be wise not to do a conjectural localization because there's not clear precedent for what that'd get localized as. Of course, even always following really clear, solid precedent, we might get it wrong occasionally, especially if Nintendo decides to rename a recurring enemy at some point, but it's a wiki, information is constantly getting updated, renamed, and reevaluated anyway. Hope that helps explain my reasoning a bit better! Hooded Pitohui (talk) 13:26, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Slippiest of slippery slopes. Just use redirects if you expect casual readers to look up for a thing more intuitively than how it's been officially presented. There's no need to compromise encyclopedic integrity to cater to what readers expect to see. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:06, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

New features

Create The Cutting Room Floor link template

"Pre-release and unused content" articles already link to The Cutting Room Floor very often, and since they are established as the to-go wiki for that kind of information, I propose we formalize the linking with a template just like the Wikipedia template.

This is how it could look:

If in a "List of pre-release and unused content" article:

If in a main game article:

Proposer: Bro Hammer (talk)
Deadline: May 7, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Bro Hammer (talk): Per my proposal.
2. Super Mario RPG (talk): This is a good idea.
3. Pseudo (talk) Per proposal. This is a really high quality wiki.
4. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) As someone with a account there, per all.
5. Scrooge200 (talk) I don't edit there anymore, but it does help coverage.
6. Camwoodstock (talk) We're surprised this hasn't been added sooner, all things considered. Per proposal.
7. Arend (talk) Per all.

Comments

Could you change the links on the template from external links to interwiki links, like this one? The Cutting Room Floor is on our interwiki list, after all, and that would look much better on the template than the external link thing. rend (talk) (edits) 05:01, May 1, 2024 (EDT)

Done! Bro Hammer (Talk • Cont) 08:19, May 1, 2024 (EDT)

Removals

Remove profiles and certain other content related to the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia from the wiki

The wiki currently houses a sizeable number of transcriptions of information from the 2015 Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia, mainly the Japanese edition, in the form of character and enemy profiles. I stated my concern here that this practice may infringe Dark Horse/Nintendo's copyright over the product, since, to my knowledge, the book's entire selling point is to inform you on the stuff you find in Mario games through bitesized blurbs. In incorporating these blurbs within its knowledge base, the Mario Wiki, a free resource, is not just impairing the very purpose of the book, but, given that it's still in print, may negatively impact its sales. In fact, that second point is the reason this proposal concerns this book only and not similar publications like Perfect Edition of the Great Mario Character Encyclopedia, which has long been out of print and has been superseded by the SMB Encyclopedia, making it highly unlikely that some big wig will send Porple a DMCA strike over something like Fire (100m)'s profile. When it comes to the 2015 Encyclopedia, though, that has a reasonable likelihood of happening and it's best the wiki enforces good faith.

On a similar basis, one user who engaged with the topic in the above talk page has also questioned the wiki's need to feature scans of the book's mistakes in its very article. Given the small size of each blurb, the scans are essentially taking away substantial chunks of information in a way that cannot be conceived as demonstrative or transformative under US Fair Use law.

What this proposal aims to do is the following:

• remove encyclopedia bios listed on various articles, regardless of their source's language. Here's an example. Here's another.
• delete the scans in the "List of English translation errors and typos not from the Super Mario Wiki" section of the encyclopedia's article, as well as any other scans of the book's contents, unless said content has been displayed by Nintendo or one of their official distributors for the purpose of promoting the book. To exemplify: This, this, and this image should be deleted if the proposal passes. This and this one should also be deleted, since the content depicted in these images hasn't been used by Shogakukan, Amazon, or some other official distributor to portray the Japanese edition on their online storefronts. On the other hand, the artwork shown in the article's gallery, such as this one, shouldn't be removed unless they depict textual information that infringes copyright.

A few notes:

• Paraphrases of the encyclopedia's information will be allowed under the proposal, so the book's article may continue to describe its mistakes until further notice.
• Small quotes of the book will also be permitted (e.g.: "This text is translated from the Japanese instruction booklet.") if they do not violate this proposal's requirements, albeit it's entirely up to editors to decide how small a quote should be and whether it fits US Fair Use.
• Subject names unique to the encyclopedia are not concerned by this proposal.

Proposer: Koopa con Carne (talk)
Deadline: April 30, 2024, 23:59 GMT

Support

1. Koopa con Carne (talk) Per proposal.
2. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) - Book's only 9 years old, this is worrisome.
3. Waluigi Time (talk) Per all. Having scans as "proof" of mistakes is especially odd, just use the book and page number as a source.
4. MegaBowser64 (talk) Well, we don't want to get sued for 34 thousand dollars in the Federal Court of Malaysia now, do we? And we probably don't want a DMCA from Dark Horse/Nintendo either. Per all of yall (collectively)
5. FanOfRosalina2007 (talk) Per all. Good move, Koopa con Carne.
6. Somethingone (talk) Per proposal (as someone who usually likes images like this), and I personally don't agree with the opposition. I saw plenty of DMCAs from scans like this before.
7. Hooded Pitohui (talk) Per proposal and per Waluigi Time's reasoning.
8. Okapii (talk) Per all; nothing we'd be removing has enough value to risk any kind of legal action against the wiki; basically, better safe than sorry.
9. TheFlameChomp (talk) Per all.
10. PnnyCrygr (talk) yeah, this is all just chunks of copyrighted content; best to remove than to be dmcaed by darkhorse. per all

Oppose

1. Axis (talk) I genuinely don't see how use of limited material from the book on pages relevant to the subject in question is by any means problematic.
2. Hewer (talk) Per Axis.
3. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) Until we know what the book itself says, I'm opposing. We can't just go, "Oh, here's this thing from 9 years ago, we can't use images of it because copyright blah blah blah." That would set a precedent that should not get set. Super Mario Pia was brought up in this proposal, as was The Art of Super Mario Odyssey in the linked talkpage, but what about others? I don't want any bad precedents being set.

#Pseudo (talk) Per Axis. On second thought, choosing to abstain, at least for the time being.

Comments

@Axis Put it another way: how legal would it be if you cut down a copyrighted movie in 30 second clips and uploaded all of them to your youtube channel? That's exactly what the wiki does, except with a book. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 12:03, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

We're going to abstain from this vote (we're moreso concerned about citogenesis than we are copyright, admittedly, and dealing with the former generally implies dealing with the latter by proxy), but uh. We do kind of do exactly that, as policy, for audio. Like, we know that's not what you meant, you meant uploading the whole thing in segments, but like, we do just outright have max-30 second excerpts for audio as a policy where going over that isn't allowed... ;P ~Camwoodstock (talk) 12:36, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

There is a pretty big difference, we're not compiling every bit of information into the same page. The information is scattered across the wiki pages, it's just not comparible. By the way, I'm not opposing to removing book scans from the wiki. Maybe the proposal should have more than 2 options? Axis (talk) 15:15, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

Whether or not what the wiki is doing is 1:1 comparable to my example is irrelevant, what's relevant is that both practices are illegal and may net the owner of the site / YT channel a DMCA strike. You can theoretically read the entire SMB Encyclopedia just by using the search function on the wiki to look up each enemy's bio, and there's a chance far larger than zero that someone would be choosing to go that route instead of buying the book if the wiki actually had complete coverage of it, which is where we're headed now. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:07, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

I'm still not convinced, sorry. Axis (talk) 00:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, I'm with Axis here. We're not having 100% coverage, just the bios, mistakes/errors/plagarism, and a gallery. Not a FULL ON EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK IS HERE! thing. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 08:38, April 24, 2024 (CST)

"We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents" -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:59, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

The things actually listed on the Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia article itself (to be as exceedingly unambiguous as possible, we are referring to the article we just linked to, the one where a Ctrl+F for "MIPS" currently yields no results) are literally just the errors/instances of plagiarism. We sat down and counted that, if you don't include any of the pages with overlap (e.g. Page 241 having both an error unique to the book and born out of citogenesis), we only discuss 67 of the book's 256 pages, plus or minus 4 that lack a page number and we thusly cannot verify, or roughly ≈27.5% of all pages.
Many of these are only single-sentence aspects of the pages, and much of these come from the citogenesis examples--it is not "the entirety of the book's contents" (the fact we can't actually prove the exact quantity alone should be proof of that). And given the majority of these are about the plagiarism anyways, we don't exactly feel like humoring the idea that we should just kind of remove these acknowledgements that the book copied from us just because the book is still being sold--that's how you get things like newbies randomly moving articles back to their conjectural titles because "the book said so", even though the book only said so because it copied our work in the first place. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:08, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

The proposal has nothing to do with what you wrote. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:20, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

Admittedly, we misread on the whole removing things outright thing, that one's on us, oops. we're so tired after last week y'all, this aside is entirely unrelated to the proposal. However, we do feel like it is worth pointing out that the statement that we cover "the entirety of the book's contents" is inaccurate, which given that statement is directly meant to counter-act Axis' own vote, we think that is reasonably related to the proposal. And, as we mentioned earlier, we're far more concerned with the whole "risk of citogenesis courtesy of the book itself having copied various names that were meant to be conjectural" aspect of that article than we are if we should include images or not, hence why we've abstained from voting. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:26, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

The profiles concerned by this proposal are mainly from the Japanese version of the book, which of course didn't use names from the wiki. This proposal is completely unrelated to the English version having taken names from the wiki (as rare as that is for a discussion about this book). Hewer (talk · contributions · edit count) 13:31, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

...We may be stupid (as we mentioned, uh, we're a little tired from the Everything. apologies for just kinda barging in and evidently getting tied up in an entirely unrelated article's business... ;P) ~Camwoodstock (talk) 13:36, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

I feel like our argument is getting semantic. Perhaps I have my large share of blame for framing the issue in absolute terms, but whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 13:41, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

So basically no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:43, April 24, 2024 (CST)

I didn't say anything of this sort. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 15:57, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

""We're not having 100% coverage, just the entirety of the book's contents"". "whether the wiki has 100%, 50%, or 20% of the book's content, the point is that said content is substantial enough as to not make its coverage tenable under copyright or fair use laws, and there are currently no restrictions for users to cover that content here in full." Does that not sound like "no Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:39, April 24, 2024 (CST)

No? "The wiki shouldn't copy so much from the book" is very different from "it should not contain even a single mention of the book". -- KOOPA CON CARNE 16:42, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

Yeah, and let a lot of work go to waste. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 15:56, April 24, 2024 (CST)

Do you wanna get sued? Including all the bios from that book, which is the entirety of said book's contents, while it is still on the market, is still justifiable grounds for a copyright strike. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:27, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

Entirety? As in "Let's ignore the other stuff in this"? And what does the book itself say? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 17:07, April 24, 2024 (CST)

Literally what "other stuff" in the book? That's all there is. Little pictures (some of the artwork I do want us to have), and bios. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 18:12, April 24, 2024 (EDT)

The non-bios. Plus, you didn't answer my other question. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 18:06, April 24, 2024 (CST)

What "non-bios" do you speak of? Also I could not understand your question. What does the book say on what? Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Everything that isn't just bios. And I meant what does the book say in terms of copyright? SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 10:19, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Super Mario Bros.™ 1985-2018 Nintendo. © 2015 Shogakukan. All rights reserved. Dark Horse Books® and the Dark Horse logo are registered trademarks of Dark Horse Comics, Inc. All rights reserved. No portion of this publication may be reproduced or transmitted, in any form or by any means, without the express written permission of Dark Horse Comics, Inc. Names, characters, places, and incidents featured in this publication either are the product of the author's imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to any persons (living or dead), events, institutions, or locales, without satiric intent, is coincidental." You mean that? LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:12, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Yes. But I don't remember anything concerning "-2018"...Maybe it's just me. SONIC123CDMANIA+&K(B&ATSA) (talk) 13:27, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? This is one of the reasons why I always made it a point to keep citations to their earliest instance. However, there are still plenty of things that are unique to the book to our knowledge, like the tidbit of MIPS being Peach's pet. What happens to that info if the proposal passes? Not to mention, Super Mario Pia was released around the same time as Encyclopedia Super Mario Bros. - do those profiles not count because they don't have the same global reach? I think maybe a cutoff date needs to be established. LinkTheLefty (talk) 13:52, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

The proposal isn't about how the book is cited. The MIPS tidbit and citation can stay; the quote is supplementary, and if it constitutes the entirety of MIPS' description in the book, it can be handily removed with little impact on the subject's coverage and how its info is sourced. I omitted Super Mario Pia out of sheer oversight, admittedly, though given its anniversary nature I'm not sure if it's even sold anymore, and I believe official availability should be our primary cutoff, rather than the publishing date. I'd have Pia handled in another discussion. -- KOOPA CON CARNE 14:11, April 23, 2024 (EDT)

Genuine question: why are we thinking about this nearly a decade later? I can't speak for the proposer, but in the past week we've had Nintendo issuing a takedown request toward Valve for hosting copyrighted Nintendo assets on Garry's Mod, after 15+ years of seemingly being fine with the stuff. That alone makes this conversation very relevant. --Glowsquid (talk) 16:20, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Squiddy that's been proven to be a false-flag perpetrated by trolls. That being said, it's in-character for them. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 16:43, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Nope. --Glowsquid (talk) 17:45, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

To be honest, if push came to shove, we feel like this'd be a rare instance of a proposal being cancelled and immediately coming into effect (that has happened before, after all, usually with "move to <X> name" proposals that ultimately didn't have any backlash whatsoever--though it coming into use for this circumstance would be rather extraordinary)... though if Nintendo was suing a wiki about their work, why they would only target an article about a book is another question we really would rather not think much of the implications on. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 17:05, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Again, it's not about the book's article, it's about the book's contents being disseminated across "profiles" pages. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 17:44, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Now you've done it, Camwoodstock!! Go to the chalkboard and write "this proposal is not about the article on Super Mario Bros. Encyclopedia" 100 times!!! -- KOOPA CON CARNE 17:58, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

We should've been clearer--we know it's about the sections on the book that are in other articles' profile sections, and NOT strictly just the article on the book and only that article. You really don't need to dogpile us on it at this point. Can we address the thing we actually were trying to talk about in the first place with the whole "our point is asking why Nintendo only sue us over that and not anything else" question? In absolutely zero uncertain terms: We are not comfortable with the repeated teases about our own ambiguous syntax here. ~Camwoodstock (talk) 19:30, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

In that case, it's not ambiguous, you plain and simply said one thing and meant another. Anyways, it's due to it being still in print and the bios in it being the entire point of the book's existence. Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 22:14, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

To play devil's advocate--what about anything else Nintendo's made that's "still in print"? While we know this proposal was only made about removing the mentioned bios and scans, books aren't the only thing that can be "in print". ~Camwoodstock (talk) 23:51, April 25, 2024 (EDT)

Consider that a lot of uploaded exclusive concept artwork from The Art of Super Mario Odyssey was removed for the same reason (notably impacting the Broodals page). Doc von Schmeltwick (talk) 00:55, April 26, 2024 (EDT)

You know, there may be a flaw with this proposal should it pass......Eh hem. LinkTheLefty (talk) 11:12, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

That's something I've been aware of since before I even drafted the proposal, but I had no idea how to bring attention to it. Maybe Porplemontage has a solution? 👀 -- KOOPA CON CARNE 11:21, April 29, 2024 (EDT)

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